We also have to accept that many businesses just are not going to do well as long as the risk to people's health is high.
Saying everything is open does not fix the problems with businesses that are centered around people being near one another.

Vaccine is a maybe. But hopeful.

People are stupid and will do dumb things. (Present company excluded of course)

The big problem is all the people that have it, are contagious, and don't know they have it.

Unfortunately that little problem means we have to test everybody. We can barely test the ones that are dying of it.

That is FUBAR. I got a bad feeling.

It is a very real possibility - which is why none of the people really evaluating these things are using that as the criteria for return to 'normal'

We will adapt... change the way things are done... change our expectation of public safety... and more. There are many things we can't control that will kill us - but we find a balance of expectation and actions to be able to function day to day. We may have to deal with more permanent changes in some things.. either expectations or actions. We'll just have to see how things progress.

For starters, Americans don't like being told what to do. On top of that, we have a highly polarized political climate in our country that has created an "us" vs. "them" mentality. It was bad enough before the pandemic, but with people getting much of their COVID-19 related information from highly biased sources, it has created the perfect storm. This is precisely why we have seemingly intelligent people on both sides doing and saying things that completely defy logic.

In my eyes, any rational person should want to avoid getting infected for as long as possible. It's entirely possible that a huge percentage of the population will ultimately get infected no matter what we do, but the more time you can buy yourself, the better. Even without a vaccine, treatment will continue to improve. Doctors certainly know a lot more about the virus now than they did two months ago, and they will know even more two months from now. This is why it really saddens me to see people out there needlessly putting themselves and others at risk. I have no problem with people protesting because they want to get back to work. This is America, and that is their right. But don't be an idiot about it. Wear a mask. Stay six feet apart.

Don't block the ambulances from getting to the hospital!

My curiousity is getting the best of me on something....

why are there clusters of virus outbreaks among people in meat packing plants, but there are no outbreaks in the towns/areas they live in?

Social distancing is difficult in these plants.

This is a world crisis but you have to stay pragmatic as long as you can. Re-opening too fast without respecting the distanciation rule will only bring some countries to phase 2 and shutdown again while other countries, by being more careful, will be back in the game from an economic and health point of view way faster.

The world is watching.... countries who will be too defiant and depend on tourism will have a hard time attracting people.

watching people on the california and florida beaches all together with no distanciation will not help the economy.

I love the States and go to Vegas and Orlando every single year.

People need to come out of confinement but the trauma left in some cases are huge. This is why you need guidance and order more than me me and me.

So those people don’t go shopping for food and water? Supposedly, this thing spreads like wildfire. I’m just not wrapping my brain around why the meat packing plants are full of virus, but no one in the communities at large around these plants aren’t on fire with covid. They have to be shopping and getting gas somewhere....

I am sure the workers do spread it to a lesser extent in the communities.

I still find it odd that they cant say for sure if one can get infected more than once.

Maybe not yet! It hasn't been even close to 14 days since that shit started happening (or since it got bad anyway). Another week to 10 days will tell us the true story about those areas.

For those that think everything should be opened up my question is this: If we just go ahead and go back to the way things were a year ago then most of the country ends up like NYC what is that going to do to the economy? What will the death toll be & how will the US medical system ever handle that many sick people? Is it really worth that risk?

The smart move was to shut things down like most states did - it would have been even smarter if they told people to start wearing masks much sooner but I think they were worried about the supply of N95's and having enough for the people who truly needed them. But they could have suggested the cloth masks would be a good idea anyway.

Bottom line is if you can stay home PLEASE DO - if you need to go out PLEASE BE SMART ABOUT IT. Everyone working together is the only way this will end!

As far as those people living paycheck to paycheck, I fully understand, I was one of you most of my adult life. But is it really worth dying just to keep your bills paid? Do you want to be the one that brought it home if it ends up killing one of your parents or kids? I just don't see taking that risk unless it is absolutely necessary. Sadly a lot of the people who want the country open will be the same ones sitting in a bar with no mask on spreading this around forever. A little logic & common sense says give the medical community a chance to at least figure out how to treat people before too many people are asking for that help!

I grew up in the US and know American systems very well and I work in Govt in NZ, I think its fair to say I have a good understanding of each country.

Opening up is important in New Zealand too. We can't stay locked down forever and we need to get the economy back as much as possible. Ultimately it's a balancing act. It will be harder to get support for lockdown here the longer it goes on.

Where it gets hard for the US is the general level of polarization (our opposition has nearly always supported the government on Covid) and the complexity added by so many levels of government make it hard to reach a consensus and take action, particularity strong action. What you see happening in NZ, Europe and other countries would be exceptionally difficult to do in the USA because of the polarized nature of things along with structural government differences. The elected government can act very quickly (and nationally) here if they need to in a way that's just not possible in the US.

In NZ we were able to lock down pretty hard and fast and we have Covid under control from a short term standpoint. However, who knows where we will be in a few months in the middle of winter, it could be good or could be ugly here.

The reality is countries will have to open up more to keep economies from completely collapsing. Its just going to be a matter of how safely each country can do it. NZ's best case is we keep the virus under control but we will have to do so with closed borders which will have major short term implications for our economy but it could work out well for us longer term.

If getting rid of it is not an option we get stuck waiting for some sort of solution and I start honestly thinking that Sweden may have the best option amongst a series of bad options.

I guess there are some advantages to living out in bumfuck Egypt

Do you spend hours next to the same people when shopping?

Why do people have a hard time grasping prolonged exposure to a source increases the likelihood of transmission?

McConnell Air Force base is just down the road from me. Those noisy bastards fly right over my house when putting on a show. Normal Air Force traffic does not come this far north, but The Angels need a lot of room for their maneuvers.

Just a guess. Smaller communities so less spread, and maybe they mostly stay away from the other people who live there. No gas because no cars?

For sure. There is no way I will go back to my Tuesday night pool tournaments until I am 100% sure I won't get bit.

Interesting consequences...

https://www.newsweek.com/leader-north-carolina-protests-against-stay-home-tests-positive-coronavirus-1500545?fbclid=IwAR2QfBx3abS9UjbiuwPydCGHkizvH_Ws1Lf2Dfy-rlSal9509C-LxcfrYOg

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“Lesser” extent? What’s that? Since The second week of March, the nightly news has told me that this is the most deadly virus that can live on all surfaces for long periods of time, and in the air even longer. Something is not right with all this horseshit we are being fed....

Meat packer plants.

" Meat processors warn of shortages. Here's why they're getting hit so hard."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/business/meat-shortages-grocery-stores-coronavirus/index.html

"The United Food and Commercial Workers International Union estimated Tuesday that 20 meatpacking and food processing workers have died so far."

"So why is meat getting hit so hard?"

" For years, major meat processors have been ruthlessly tamping down on costs and increasing efficiencies. That has contributed to dangerous working conditions even before the coronavirus hit.
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" Trump to order meat processing plants to stay open"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/politics/defense-production-act-executive-order-food-supply/index.html

" President Donald Trump is expected to sign a five-page executive order under the Defense Production Act to compel meat processing plants to remain open amid the coronavirus pandemic.

"We're going to sign an executive order today, I believe, and that'll solve any liability problems," Trump said on Tuesday."

" But in addition to those dangers, efforts to speed up processing has led to workers standing closer together -- about three or four feet apart from each other while working.

Fake news....the lady who had Covid was not a leader of the open NC group. She was an administrator, and she contracted the virus before the movement ever started. And she has never been to any of the rally's. She lives in the western part of the state. Just goes to show you the ridiculous bias of media.

Not specific to meat packing plants but manufacturing facilities in general:

It can only take 1 confirmed case, or someone being exposed to someone who has it to potentially force a plant to take more drastic measures. Such as temporary shut downs of lines / areas of a facility to quarantine people exposed and do a deep sanitization of the workplace. Not having a willing workforce to come into work due to uncertainty and fear can also close down a facility. There does not need to be an “outbreak”.

I only hope that Kevin Bacon doesn’t get COVID. Everyone is F’d then!

You bet!

Poor ventilation, lack of sanitation, and workers grouped close together in the factories would cause an outbreak.

A couple of things going on. There are many people inside a closed building that are together throughout the day. Many are side by side for 8 hours at a time so the longer exposure will have a better chance of catching the virus.
And a couple of things I see at my work and other stores. I'm sure these are the same in any type of proccesing plant. People are comfortable with those they work with so let their guard down. I'll watch people walk in the back room and pull their face mask down to talk to each other. There could be 3 to 5 people just standing talking with the face mask down. I've yeld at guys for doing when they talk to me. And the other biggest thing I see is our break room. I'll walk by the room and see a dozen people setting eating. Of course they don't have face masks. The other thing is there is hardly any air cerculation in most of these room. I don't go into the room personlly. I'll stand out in the hallway to eat a quick (light) meal. All it would take is one person to be sick and it would spread around the room. Hell no!!. Now that it's nicer outside more people will go outside to eat so think this will help.

It seems to me that there are 2 possible outcomes from here:

1. Virus burns itself out, and we’re back to normal by winter.
2. Virus fades in the summer, but comes roaring back in the winter.

I honestly wonder what happens if it’s #2. Another $6-10 trillion in economic stimulus? Back to shelter-in-place?

People in meat packing plants work shoulder to to shoulder in stations on lines with conveyer belts moving product past you. Your head is literally 2 feet or less from the person on your left and your right. Very close quarters. They have lunchrooms and everyone eats lunch at the same time. It is the opposite of social distancing.

The article never said she attended a rally, just that she is a 'leader' of the movement and she herself made it unclear as to whether or not she attended any rallies. Here is the quote from the article:

"She refused to indicate whether she tested negative before releasing herself from quarantine and answered "no comment" when asked if she had attended a protest the group held last week."

I mentioned about this when the stimulus first came out. Now it's going to start taking effect since the unemployment checks are starting to come out.
"Half Of U.S. Workers Can Make More On Unemployment After Emergency Benefits"
https://www.dailywire.com/news/half-of-us-workers-can-make-more-on-unemployment-after-emergency-benefits?utm

I took the point of the original question to not be about the virus spreading IN the factory, but rather questioning why the employees aren’t spreading the virus out in the broader community. My guess would be that they probably are but probably the plant is paying for tests do they know for sure. The families and friends may not gave access to testing if they aren’t sick enough.

BA0E2444-F0CA-42E8-8CD8-D5861FD0AD18 (resized).jpeg

(Edit: Wow, this meme is 8 years old now:

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If what happened in New York was going to happen in other major cities, it would have already happened. If I recall correctly, the studies performed by USC and Stanford already indicated the amount of people already infected in California, especially Los Angeles, is in the hundreds of thousands. It seems the virus has already moved through our nation a lot more than the current data is showing. Even Governor Cuomo in their study throughout the state of New York indicated that approximately 2.7 million people already had it there, if I am remembering the test data correctly.

I truly believe if there were going to be massive outbreaks in other major cities it would have already happened. New York is not the only major US city with high population density, ethnic diversity, elderly, people with existing health conditions, widely used public transportation, and a major hub for international travel. Bottom line...I don’t believe any of what you are suggesting will happen. The worst is over.

Quest Diagnostics Begins Selling COVID-19 Antibody Tests

For $119 you can now get an antibody test to see if you have been exposed to SARS-CoV-2.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/quest-diagnostics-begins-selling-covid-19-antibody-tests?utm

Sorry to hear that.
My sister has been in self quarantine for a week now. She works at an Amazon warehouse and a few others are also out sick. He doctor said he is sure she has it but she can't get a test unless she's sick enough to be in the hospital. She is in the high risk category. 55 years old, smoked all her life, already has a lung disease and suppressed immune system. I still can't believe they won't test her. But it is the way our hospitals are set up. They won't test unless you are in the hospital, a first responder or was in contact with someone that was tested positive.

Really sorry to hear that @daditude. My great uncle was special to me, and he left me his Lionel train set when he passed in the 70’s. He was the first person who made me realize we could have cool stuff at home (he also had a slot machine).

My thoughts are with him, you and your family.

Sorry to hear that man. That must be a common theme these days, an activities coordinator at my grandmother’s facility just tested positive for it as well.

59,266 people have died. Tomorrow we will exceed 60,000 dead. New York has reduced it daily death rate but other states are coming up. You know, 20 here, 10 here, 30 here and it adds up.

As the country opens up it is going to get interesting.

Screen Shot 2020-04-28 at 10.28.46 PM (resized).png

Daily new cases did not change much.

Screen Shot 2020-04-28 at 10.31.29 PM (resized).png
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But daily deaths made a jump.

Screen Shot 2020-04-28 at 10.32.32 PM (resized).png

What if...there’s no vaccine (not clear we can make a corona vaccine), no effective medical therapy (nothing effective found thus far), no reliable antibody test (not yet), and no immunity from antibodies anyway (no evidence)...seriously, it’s worth considering what happens then.

Several posts above, a pinball distributor sold a new pinball machine. That's a good thing.

Is anybody here going to go one a buying spree for toys and goodies. Or are you going to concentrate on just food and medical and conserve cash? Or are you going to go out and spend with wild abandon? The point being is the powers can work to open up the economy, but will anybody be willing to step out and start splashing cash? Or will you be pinching pennies.

Maybe because in the hospital I work in 12 of the 14 theatres have been stripped and converted in to makeshift ICU bays. We have been lucky that our normal capacity of ICU beds is 18, we had been able to get that up as high as 111. So far the max number of beds we have had occupied is 'only' 40ish - more than double our capacity if we hadn't made the changes.
It would have been even higher but for 2 reasons - Social distancing being adhered to, and the fact that patients are dying so quickly they're not taking up the beds.

The definition of elective surgeries is precisely that they are planned, they are not emergencies, patients will not die if they don't have the surgery. It may well be a discomfort to people who are awaiting surgery (myself included) but priorities need to be made.

There is also currently a lack in some areas of PPE, that is a lack of PPE even though the majority of planned surgery has stopped. There simply isn't enough PPE to cover elective and Covid.

You can't just restart elective surgeries at the drop of a hat.

Australia has called for an investigation into China's wet markets and now they are threatening us with sanctions - very helpful .

No movies tonight , but new Family Guy is on .

IMG20200429211937 (resized).jpg

For the poor people in China that rely on the wet markets for daily food, what alternatives could the Chinese Government provide for them? It would be like our farmers market being closed down. They need to change their culture not just close a market.

Pardon my crappy scientific rambling. My sample size of 1 is useless. My sample size of 20 is useless. However, my girlfriend works in a facility, and most of the staff caught it (including her). Most of them (excluding the staff member that died from it) are back to work. They are still around patients that have it every day. Yet no staff member has caught it a second time. I’m not going to conclude having it gives permanent immunity, but it definitely gives at least temporary immunity.

IAFM!!!!!