(Topic ID: 126221)

The Nightmare Before Christmas

By MarkInc

6 years ago


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  • 1,313 posts
  • 248 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by PinMonk
  • Topic is favorited by 220 Pinsiders

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There are 1,313 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 27.
#451 5 years ago
Quoted from Freeplay40:

No worries and I will make the molds! Once I finish this round of ramps I'm doing (GnR, Strange Science and the Wabac) I will be focusing most of my attention on the new machine!

Ask Mark, first thing I said to him when I saw him was to ask when you were making his ramps.

#452 5 years ago

The red plastic on Buffy was very nice.
Aaron needs to capture Mark's process on video and share it out. We need more people doing this.

#453 5 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

The red plastic on Buffy was very nice.
Aaron needs to capture Mark's process on video and share it out. We need more people doing this.

The best thing anyone can do to get good at something like vacuum forming or welding, etc. is to study the fundamentals and practice. Do it over and over. Adjust, refine, perfect. There is no shortcutting experience.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#454 5 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

The red plastic on Buffy was very nice.
Aaron needs to capture Mark's process on video and share it out. We need more people doing this.

I've got a really cool turquoise blue that I will use on Strange Science and likely on a Pinbot repro.

IMG_1226 (resized).JPG

#455 5 years ago

Nice! Looks like a gem.

#456 5 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

Aaron needs to capture Mark's process on video and share it out. We need more people doing this.

What and take business away from Mark....I think not.

#457 5 years ago
Quoted from Freeplay40:

I've got a really cool turquoise blue that I will use on Strange Science and likely on a Pinbot repro.

That's the color the original probably started out as.

#458 5 years ago

Great to play your game again Mark. Each year it gets deeper and deeper with code and amps up the already awesome fun factor. Looking forward to next year with art and more durable ramps.

#459 5 years ago
Quoted from T-800:

Great to play your game again Mark. Each year it gets deeper and deeper with code and amps up the already awesome fun factor. Looking forward to next year with art and more durable ramps.

Thanks Scott!

Re our chat about upkickers and the space they take:
Have you seen these:
ebay.com link: GOTTLIEB FREDDY UP KICKER TO HEAD ASSEMBLY REBUILT WORKS HARD TO FIND

3 weeks later
18
#460 5 years ago

Work begins again...

table-blue-start copy (resized).jpg

2 months later
10
#461 4 years ago

Some times you gotta go back to move forward.
Stripping down to get a proper scan done. Want to make sure art will line up!

IMG_3317 (resized).JPG

#462 4 years ago

Hey! The underside is wood!

IMG_3353 (resized).JPG

#463 4 years ago

All stripped and heading to the scanner.

IMG_3367 (resized).JPG

IMG_3369 (resized).JPG

#464 4 years ago

Very cool to see the stripped down playfield - shows all the shot paths. You really came up with a fun new playfield design. Any thoughts on creating a vector playfield layout based on your scan so you can get one perfectly CNC'd?

#465 4 years ago
Quoted from T-800:

Very cool to see the stripped down playfield - shows all the shot paths. You really came up with a fun new playfield design. Any thoughts on creating a vector playfield layout based on your scan so you can get one perfectly CNC'd?

Thanks! I still find it fun, and it's gotten much play over the past ~20 months.
A few minor tweaks here and there have changed it enough from the layout I started with in futurepinball that I can't really use that bitmap to finalize the art or make a CAD file. A few posts moved a bit and the inserts were mostly hand placed, so that majorly affects art.
This scan will help me capture all those changes into a proper CAD.

#466 4 years ago

Man, that thing needs some Novus!

#467 4 years ago

funny thing that I'm not seeing. a ton of dimples in the wood.

you would think that for a playfield that is not painted and/or clear coated, the ball strikes would be more pronounced and evident

maybe you should share your supplier information with stern

#468 4 years ago
Quoted from j_m_:

funny thing that I'm not seeing. a ton of dimples in the wood.
you would think that for a playfield that is not painted and/or clear coated, the ball strikes would be more pronounced and evident
maybe you should share your supplier information with stern

If there is any dimpling, you probably wouldn't be able to tell very well because there's nothing to reflect (since it's bare wood). But yea, I get what you're saying, even with no protective clearcoat that wood is holding up well (Stern's shooter lanes are even dimpling to the point where it looks like someone took a hammer to them). I've actually found that even a $15 sheet of 2'x4' ply from Lowe's is pretty darn good quality on my homebrew project. In fact I bought a nice piece of wood online for like $50, and Lowe's still beats it in quality.

Keep in mind (before this fiasco) that typically in the playfield industry, it is typically a very high grade wood that you can't get anywhere. It's seriously specially formulated and made specifically for Churchill for playfields.

#469 4 years ago

So, no go on the professional scan.

Playfield too heavy for the machine's rollers. No one else in town has a large scanner that can handle it.

My options:
1. Good photo/s stitched/scaled
2. Tracing paper & pencil -> scan
3. Hand scanner
4. something, something profit? Or any suggestions from the gallery?

-1
#470 4 years ago

I would say get a ScanJet 4670 off ebay, but looks like they are getting pretty pricey (I do have one, but you'd have to ship).

Honestly, since you don't have artwork started (that you have to worry about lining up to the playfield cutouts), a good straight on photograph would probably be fine (may have to skew and adjust in photoshop, and resize which I can also help with). Obviously once you have a good image, it's pretty easy to trace in a CAD program like draftsight (inserts need to be accurate, but both 2d and 3d models of standard inserts are on pinballmakers.com).

Here's a stretched non-skewed version of the photo you posted. I adjusted width to 20.25", no idea what the height is:

christmas_playfield_flattened (resized).jpg

#471 4 years ago

Don't use photos. Without a pro rig there's simply too much chance of distortion, and being off a little bit sucks for art, but could be even worse if you use it as a source to generate CAD.

I'd trust covering the whole thing in a roll of paper, doing a rubbing, and scanning that in sections over a photo if it came to it.

#472 4 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I would say get a ScanJet 4670 off ebay, but looks like they are getting pretty pricey

This.

#473 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Don't use photos. Without a pro rig there's simply too much chance of distortion, and being off a little bit sucks for art, but could be even worse if you use it as a source to generate CAD.
I'd trust covering the whole thing in a roll of paper, doing a rubbing, and scanning that in sections over a photo if it came to it.

Oh damn! I had never thought of doing a rubbing! That is a great idea!

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#474 4 years ago

any cruse scan in London?

#475 4 years ago
Quoted from Redketchup:

any cruse scan in London?

I'll look around. Thanks for the suggestion.

#476 4 years ago

I have a place here in montreal... I know it's pretty far, but if you need info, let me know!

http://photosynthese.com/

#477 4 years ago

bummer about the scan,

alternatively I have done a pure measure and draw into CAD and then print (have a small rule printed in the print as a scale check) in tracing paper and then do a overlay check - a little time consuming but once you get in the swing of it measuring from the left side and bottom side for every item keeps it consistent. and then a photo like how toyotaboy suggested as a layer to toggle off / on.

#478 4 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

So, no go on the professional scan.
Playfield too heavy for the machine's rollers. No one else in town has a large scanner that can handle it.
My options:
1. Good photo/s stitched/scaled
2. Tracing paper & pencil -> scan
3. Hand scanner
4. something, something profit? Or any suggestions from the gallery?

Take a reglar flatbed scanner, rip off lid, scan in sections best you can. Photoshop photo merge. It is incredibly accurate if you do your best to scan in sections properly. We did this for large posters to make sideart and worked flawlessly

#479 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Don't use photos. Without a pro rig there's simply too much chance of distortion, and being off a little bit sucks for art, but could be even worse if you use it as a source to generate CAD.
I'd trust covering the whole thing in a roll of paper, doing a rubbing, and scanning that in sections over a photo if it came to it.

Agree 100% - do not use photos. I've set up rigs from 15 feet high looking perfectly straight down and taken pictures of playfield projects to take as much of the angle of distortion out. Going back and measuring known holes and comparing back to the photo and they're always off. Registration will be terrible and all the wonderful work you're putting into this will end up not looking as professional as I'm sure you're hoping for. If you wanted to get really clever you could possibly add index points on your playfield at known positions and then transform your photo to match but then you're still playing a tweaking game.

Personally, I'd vet this wonderful network of people and find someone with a scanner that you can physically mail your playfield to... For the amount of time and money you already have into this project it will probably be insignificant in the whole scheme of things.

#480 4 years ago
Quoted from swinks:

bummer about the scan,
alternatively I have done a pure measure and draw into CAD and then print (have a small rule printed in the print as a scale check) in tracing paper and then do a overlay check - a little time consuming but once you get in the swing of it measuring from the left side and bottom side for every item keeps it consistent. and then a photo like how toyotaboy suggested as a layer to toggle off / on.

I've tried the measure - adjust - measure - adjust and I just wasn't getting it accurate enough. This was before I stripped everything off, but still not sure I could get it right.

I need a large drafting table with an electronic tracking pen. Then I could just trace things out on the playfield and they'd be transferred accurately to a drawing!

#481 4 years ago

I would actually make a photogrammetric model. Wood photogrammeterizes very very nicely due to all the unique feature points. Take a bunch of photos from a bunch of angles, and feed it into something like RealityCapture. Then you can scale the model using known dimensions such as the width or height, and take measurements from the scaled model. This strategy is actually used on a larger scale for surveying.

Assuming you have a machine with an NVidia GPU to try it:
https://www.capturingreality.com/

#482 4 years ago

I'd be willing to bet there are some people in the vpforums that could help you out too. With all the playfield scanning that goes on to make those digital games there has to be some resources available.

#483 4 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

I'll look around. Thanks for the suggestion.

Mark, I have a portable scanner. Let's talk.

#484 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

Take a reglar flatbed scanner, rip off lid, scan in sections best you can. Photoshop photo merge. It is incredibly accurate if you do your best to scan in sections properly. We did this for large posters to make sideart and worked flawlessly

If you have to scan in pieces, first draw a grid on the playfield, lines every 4 inches or so, to help align the sections of the scans when you stitch them back together. .

#485 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

If you have to scan in pieces, first draw a grid on the playfield, lines every 4 inches or so, to help align the sections of the scans when you stitch them back together. .

You can overlap the scans to get a really accurate final accurate well

#486 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

You can overlap the scans to get a really accurate final accurate well

I think Josh's point is that on an almost uniformly brown blank, a grid would give you more points of reference to re-align things.

#487 4 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

I think Josh's point is that on an almost uniformly brown blank, a grid would give you more points of reference to re-align things.

Not trying to argue or debate this. Just saying I've done similar and worked fine. Lots of holes overlapping so good to go

#489 4 years ago

Hammerhead is lending me his scanner!
Will try the scan and stitch approach in a couple of days.

#490 4 years ago

Man, this is how to do one of these threads. Absolutely hit the ground running; no fooling around. Great project. Loving what I'm seeing so far. Particularly impressed by your shot design and flow

#491 4 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

Hammerhead is lending me his scanner!
Will try the scan and stitch approach in a couple of days.

If PS isn't stitching it well for you, I'm happy to take the pics and try myself

#492 4 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

Hammerhead is lending me his scanner!
Will try the scan and stitch approach in a couple of days.

I use Microsoft ICE for stitching, seems to do a pretty good job.

#493 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

If PS isn't stitching it well for you, I'm happy to take the pics and try myself

Thanks for the offer, very generous.
I should be ok getting the images together. I can grab ICE, it looks free.

Just patiently waiting to get my hands on the scanner tomorrow

#494 4 years ago

Hi Mark...

Again, fantastic project. Thank you for introducing yourself on the MPF Google group.

Couple of questions:

1) Which 3D modeling tool[s] did you use?

I've tried several recently:

* Blender -- Navigation seems horrible. Taking forever to model a ramp using a guide ramp from VP
* MoI (Moment Of Inspiration) -- Can't import guide ramps (.obj/.stl). Didn't seem to function
* Fusion 360 -- Mesh guide ramp imported OK; seems more suited to industrial design. Couldn't figure it out
* 123D Design -- Fewer features than Fusion 360. Seemed impossible to use.
* Metasequoia -- Mesh guide ramp imported OK; didn't get to use it much.
* Milkshape -- Used it years ago... will try it. Not sure if quality meshes/solids can be produced with it.

Haven't yet tried: 3DS Max / new versions of Maya ($4000/8000 for full license a pc)

I do have experience modeling and navigating in 3D modeling software (used Maya 8 years ago for video games).

2) Future Pinball: The ball physics (in a newly created game) seem not that great to me.

Were the physics of your FP NBX game suitable for your purposes, and if so, did you do anything special to get it that way?

Thanks a third time!
Chad

12
#495 4 years ago

all stitched up and ready to go

NBX_SCAN_LOWRES (resized).jpg

#496 4 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

1) Which 3D modeling tool[s] did you use?

I only went from FP -> blender -> Fusion360
But it all imported as one big model, so never got far with that. It was neat to see the render.

I knew the simulated physics would never really match the real life behaviour.
After my first stab at FP table -> real table I took what I saw on the real table and worked that back into the sim.
The sim became a little clunkier (but I was confident of what worked in the real.)

I didn't really model the ramps. Making them out of matte board and duct tape was a fast, easy, and durable solution.
Start with a rough bottom curve, refine it to the width needed. Make strips for sides. Tape in place.

#497 4 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

all stitched up and ready to go

Glad to see it all worked out last night!

#498 4 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

all stitched up and ready to go

For posterity, would you mind posting exactly what you did to create that playfield image? i.e. equipment used, resolution of scan, software for stitching, etc.? I can see many other home projects following this thread benefiting from what you have just done.

#499 4 years ago
Quoted from T-800:

For posterity, would you mind posting exactly what you did to create that playfield image? i.e. equipment used, resolution of scan, software for stitching, etc.? I can see many other home projects following this thread benefiting from what you have just done.

Equipment:
PC with XP running scan software that came with HP Scanjet 4600 (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high,781-11.html)
PC with W10 running MS ICE (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=52459) and Photoshop(or gimp)

Scanned in overlapping sections 3X5 at 300dots per inch. This created 15 .tif files approx 22Mb each.

Copied files over to faster PC. Ran the ICE program. Loaded in the 15 images. It automatically stitched them for me.
Resulting file was rotated a couple of degrees in Photoshop to align the left edge of the playfield with the edge of the image. The canvas size was adjusted down until it was just the size of the playfield.

Turns out it was not cut very squarely - hand tools. Noticeable at the top and the fuzzy right edge.
This playfield is not a standard size. It is 23.25 X 45.75 (made to fit the cabinet that was built for me.)
I can easily get rid of that extra .25" width by reducing the shooterlane width and moving the kickback over 1/8th.

There are 1,313 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 27.

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