Fremont, CA
Dave will be missed for sure! Barry has been around API for a long time (minus a 'short' JJP walkbout) which will help with support consistency (which keeps me from cancelling my Houdini pre-order).
Good luck Dave!
(Topic ID: 253582)
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Barry O's BBQ Challenge (Classic)
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Galactic Tank Force (DE)
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Galactic Tank Force (LE)
American Pinball, 2023
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Hot Wheels
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Houdini
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Legends of Valhalla
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Oktoberfest
American Pinball, 2018
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Quoted from bobukcat:I'm pretty sure the most current cabinet rumors are that Nordman is doing a custom cabinet for the "Deluxe" version of Galactic Tank Force and that they are going to use a single "standard" (Stern if you will) cabinet / backbox for all future games including runs of HW, OCKT and Houdini "classics".
I DON'T think I would "HATE" receiving a NIB Houdini from the next run with a more conventional 'Stern' fomatted backbox. The original scroll shape backbox sides are distinctive, but I could easily live with a new run Houdini sitting next to my Stern machines and looking more consistent. It's probably a function of BOM/cost of goods for them at a higher volume of units.
I guess we'll see if it happens sooner or later...
1 month later
Quoted from Daditude:It is great. I have gone on record to say it is one of the most underrated games in all of pinball.
After I sold my first Houdini 18 months ago, it has grown on me when I see it, fueled by the fans online and their observations. That said, I missed a lost-and-found at the factory NIB last xmas, so I had to place a reservation for a NIB Houdini this past spring. There really is something about Houdini for anyone with an affinity to the theme...
3 weeks later
Are they shipping ANY machines of any title these days? I see a bunch of 'in stock' Legends machines on the marketplace, so those must have been produced recently. A new title just makes the parts acquisition challenge even harder for them.
Ugg
2 months later
I feel like their $5400 bargain with Houdini will go down as an industry milestone. They brought an amazing machine to the market at a spectacular price. They have now caught up to Stern's $9K+ pricing, with a no-name title no less. And maybe it's just me, but the 'radical new cabinet design' I heard rumour of looks like a sheet of rounded plywood bolted on each side. I guess it's still "OK" to watch API from a distance, wallet firmly locked in pocket...
4 months later
In case anyone wants to see what 'the most watched' TV shows have been (which might generate some ideas for licensed themes):
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls095964455/?sort=moviemeter,asc&st_dt=&mode=detail&page=1 (sorted by popularity)
Hate to say it, but I took my name off the Houdini next-run list with my distributor as I began to lose faith that API had the focus needed to grow or for that matter even run another batch of Houdini machines. I feel like their best 'hits' are now in their rear-view mirrors. It's too bad. I loved Houdini and kinda wish I still had it, but they don't command the attention of the entusiast audience as much any longer to be sure.
Maybe I have lost track of current events, but their CEO is still listed as Mukesh Vasani yet I see no mentions of him "operationally running" the company on a daily basis. Fix is still listed as the exec VP.
Who is supposed to be calling the shots over there today?
A lot of companies that get to this point, look at merging for customer acquisition, or selling their intellectual property. Not sure if either value applies to them today… but I hope I am wrong.
What is their build capacity these days? Seems like there is/was some pent-up demand for their earlier titles. Not sure where new batches of Houdini, LOV or OKF fit in their production business plan. At minimum it would generate some needed working capital/cash. I think there are any number of incremental positive steps API could make to pull out of this nose dive on their own...
OR ....
I wonder if it might be time for some consolidation in this industry? A few of the smaller players could come together and create a strong new challenger perhaps? Maybe some combination of creative, technical and manufacturing could be quilted together to form a challenger to Stern?
3 weeks later
So many grown-up themes to focus in on, i am not sure they would have the biggest return / revenue opportunity if they go back to "Ages 3 and Up" board games. Just a quick search for top movies of the past 3 years, plus a little nudging of the data to account to broad pinball audience appeal (both 10 year olds and enthusiasts):
Knives Out
Jumanji
Black Widow
Hollywood
Fast & Furious
Quiet Place
Elvis
Dune
Everything Everywhere
Minions
TopGun Maverick
Suicide Squad
Quoted from Ballderdash:So easy to just copy/paste “insert movie title here”. Isn’t there something interesting beyond the halls of Hollywood?
In theory, but that why McDonalds and Starbucks thrive. Not because their food or coffee is the best, but the logo is instantly associated with their product and people are normally drawn to what they know. If an original pinball was titled "Race to Mars", "World of Pets", "Treasure Hunt" or "African Safari" it might be fun, but it wouldn't have a built in audience. It would have to stand on its own merits entirely and bring people into their storyline. That's a bigger risk for a maker to be sure.
Quoted from PinMonk:The astounding part is they did it in record time.
... but it was not a scratch machine. They inherited it from John Popadiuk and then made some pretty major changes to it before they manufactured it. I know they can hit another home run, they just need to want to, maybe do some research, keep quality high, etc.
1 week later
Quoted from Merendino:Apologies if these are ignorant questions:
How logical would it be for AP to simply start making budget games? I know Stern stopped the home pin experiment for like the 3rd or 4th time but I'm curious how many of those games actually sold?
I know all the home pins carried an IP. The build quality was okay enough and they felt fine to play, it was the MSRP that pushed people away. Is there a market at all for non-licensed or inexpensive licensed budget pinball? I know Stern has a vast amount of resources at it's disposal but I can't help but think a smaller team and crew would have at least a modicum of success making slightly less complicated machines.
Whenever I see the price tag on a game without a theme I always think "Man, how many average Joes would really pay that much when they can get something like a Stern pro?"
What price point would a fun budget game have to be at (NIB) to perk interest? IMO $3.5k would be an ideal sweet spot but probably not very realistic.
A significant problem is cost of goods doesn't change all that much if you wittle down a pro pinball to a home pin. Cabinet is a wash, CPU is a wash, LCD goes from $60 to $45 for a 7-inch, blank coin door saves $75, a few less toys or flippers on the playfield saves maybe $125. Not a huge savings and R&D is nearly the same too. And with unit based IP licenses, the theme would likely cost about the same per unit.
Quoted from PinMonk:Uh, you can get 7" 1280x720 lcds for less than $20 in quantity. CPU isn't really a wash, either. AP's full machines are using micro ATX type systems. For a machine with limited screen graphics, you could do a raspberry pi knockoff and save at least $150, maybe more. The most expensive part of it electronically would be the PROC hardware to run the coils, switches, and lights, but if you want to go bargain basement, Ben has said the board he made for Spooky was cheap (maybe TOO cheap? They moved on to another board for their next pin after the one that used Pinotaur) so AP could use that instead.
Corners could be cut, prices could be reduced, but if you're AP, do you really want to chase the price-conscious market? Is there enough money in it to sustain a pinball company? That's the main question. Seems like Stern already answered that question and the answer was, "no."
Good detail, but my point was relative to the total build cost of a PRO, the bill of materials for a HOME version wouldn't change by a ton, surely not 50% or more. It's a few dollars here and there. But your comment about chasing a home market that has proven stubborn multiple time is also a guardrail to be considered.
I keep thinking that there must be more to the current AP story. There must be some parent company constraints that the AP team is wrestling with, and can't speak about publically. I don't think it's a one guy who is asleep at the wheel kind of issue. Could be a pure budget/investment issue, could be an exit plan in progress, could be a handful of other more structural things. AP came out strong 5 years ago, but now seems to be focused on 'something else' which is distracting to them, and disappointing to us. A new pin was perhaps in development already and then caught up in that distraction, so it never materialized the way it was originally envisioned... resulting in what we got in GTF theme and build.
Quoted from PanzerKraken:I think AP games have been generally solid. The production values on art/animation assets can be questionable but the games have still been solid. GTF I haven't touched yet so I can't really give a proper opinion, but just from online videos and pics, I can't say im attracted to it.
But Oktoberfest, Hot Wheels, Houdini, etc have been solid games.
Loved my Houdini machine!! Josh had a passion for the code, artwork was strong, build was solid. Even the catapult and stage had innovation from the get go and worked pretty well.
Quoted from PinJim:He-Man seems like an awful title. That'd appeal to who? Maybe some middle aged guys. Seems like it'd be lost on the youth.
I hope AP can succeed. While my Houdini isn't my favorite game, it's fun. If only the damn shots weren't so tight. But the build quality is excellent.
I still think The Price is Right would be an awesome title - for someone to make. Then again, WOF was not well received, so there's that. I will say though, I owned one and it was great; short of the somewhat incomplete software. Despite that, fun and unique game.
Not sure the pinball crowd is going to influence AP's next title. I am sure they have a magic ball to choose things like that. (LOL). That said, if you walk through any Casino in Las vegas, the slot machine titles seem to have enough due dilligence on them that they appeal to a broad audience (at least the casino audience). The top 'themes' (in order) for slot machines right now are:
Ancient Egypt....
Viking Slots....
Horror Slots....
Oriental Slots....
Movie Slots....
Music Slots....
Might be worth comparing those themes to potential titles if we wanted to spitball on what any pin maker should build next, but as we all surmise, the makers do not appear to be soliciting input from pinsiders on what to build next.
Referring to AIMTRON's website, http://www.aimtronfest.com/about# they seem to ignore David altogether and show still Dhaval still running API, but I am confused when I look up Dhaval Vasani on linkedIn, as it looks like he left API 3 years ago...
Quoted from Scoot:What originally got me interested with AP was the amount of premium components in their machines for the price. When Houdini first appeared, it was priced less than a premium but was loaded like an LE. With such great innovations like the catapults, stage door, and reversing flippers (straight jacket is one of my favs) and a true backglass, I couldn't resist buying one. AP was showing everyone that they could put out a beautiful, fully loaded machine and also have it at a great price point. AP ended up being my first NIB experience as I couldn't afford the much higher price points from other manufacturers.
I am just one opinion and it means nothing here on these forums but what also has me liking AP so much was the coding and great game modes. I'm mostly referring to both Houdini and Oktoberfest. These two machine has some of the most creative and fun modes in all of pinball. The first time I experience SOBER on Oktoberfest, or crossing your arms and playing reverse flippers on Houdini, I knew there was a lot of creativity and effort put into the different modes. And thay are fun.
I truly hope AP can somehow manage to find their way back to what got me interested in playing their games. Machines loaded with cool toys and fun modes for a great price.
I would imagine the BARGAIN aspect of their pins has left the barn as they struggle to survive, but the rest of their creativity could be salvaged if they wish to regain their presence.
2 weeks later
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:TurnerPinball.com
"Ninja Eclipse" proto at PinballExpo in two weeks?
1 week later
Quoted from Charlemagne1987:Yeah. That’s been my fear. You could be right, but I certainly hope you’re wrong. I haven’t yet had a chance to play GTF because no locations around me are carrying it, but lately I’ve been reading a lot of posts about people claiming it’s a really fun game…it’s goofiness aside. I think AP has a tremendous amount of potential. If they snagged the right theme and handled the rollout like professionals (rather than how they handled the GTF rollout), I think they could really break out. But, damn, they gotta get their shit together before other companies like BoF leave them in the dust.
One of the articles I recently read claimed that Stern commands 90% of the market share. I don’t think it’s quite that much, but even if it’s not, it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot left for all the other companies.
I bet it's higher than 90% marketshare based on volume (# of units shipped). Stern pops out thousands of machines every quarter and growing.
Quoted from punkin:Williams didn't die. It just changed hands.
They also diversified product lines to slot machines (similiar electronics, mechanical) to the casino industry so that it just made sense to make money in volume purchases. WMS Gaming turned out to be their new cash cow, so in the late 90's selling one at a time pinball was no longer part of their plan. (And then Scientific Games bought what was left of "WMS Gaming" in 2016).
m
Ok, some more 'campy' animated themes they could dig into....
- The New Shmoo (1948-1952): A friendly, all-purpose animal that can be used for anything from food to clothing to transportation.
- Hong Kong Phooey (1974-1976): A mild-mannered dog who transforms into a kung fu superhero when he calls his special number.
- Swat Kats: The Radical Squadron (1993-1994): Two cat superheroes who protect the city of Megakat City from evil.
- Aaahh!!! Real Monsters (1994-1997): Three young monsters who attend a school for monsters under the city of New York.
- The Ren & Stimpy Show (1991-1996): A surreal and often grotesque cartoon about a neurotic chihuahua and his dimwitted cat roommate.
- Rocko's Modern Life (1993-1996): A cartoon about a wallaby who tries to live a normal life in the suburbs.
- Cow and Chicken (1997-1999): A cartoon about a cow and her chicken brother who live with their parents, a human father and a cow mother.
- I Am Weasel (1997-1999): A cartoon about a weasel who tries to get rich quick by scheming and scamming.
- Ed, Edd n Eddy (1999-2009): A cartoon about three mischievous kids who try to make money by selling candy and other schemes.
- Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends (2004-2009): A cartoon about a boy who runs a foster home for imaginary friends.
- My Life as a Teenage Robot (2003-2009): A cartoon about a teenage robot girl who tries to live a normal life while also protecting the world from
- Inch High, Private Eye (1973): A private investigator who is only one inch tall.
- Sabrina and the Groovie Goolies (1970-1971): Sabrina the Teenage Witch and a group of monster musicians who fight crime.
Quoted from jrcmlc:I think ren and stimpy is it from that list.
What about Hong Kong Phooey! What a nice puppy.... LOL
Quoted from Charlemagne1987:Hong Kong Phooey has my vote. It was one of my favorites when I was a kid. Plus it would look great beside my Scooby.
I can kinda hear the theme song for HKP in my head now....
Let's see what the AI engines would expect a pinball machine based upon HKP to look/play like (in case API needs some input from the peanut gallery!)...
A pinball machine based on Hong Kong Phooey would be a colorful and action-packed game, featuring the lovable dog detective and his cast of characters. The playfield would be divided into different sections, each representing a different location in Hong Kong Phooey's world, such as his office, the police station, the streets of Hong Kong, and the headquarters of the Penry gang.
Players would use the flippers to control Hong Kong Phooey as he navigates the playfield, collecting points and completing missions. Missions could include anything from arresting Penry and his gang to rescuing Penny from danger.
The playfield would feature a variety of obstacles and challenges, such as spinning bumpers, drop targets, and ramps. There would also be a number of special features, such as a miniature Hong Kong Phooey car that players could race around the track, and a Penry-shaped target that players could shoot with a ball to score bonus points.
The backbox of the machine would feature a large illustration of Hong Kong Phooey, as well as a number of other characters from the show. The backglass would also feature a variety of flashing lights and animations, adding to the excitement of the game.
Here are some specific ideas for features that could be included in a Hong Kong Phooey pinball machine:
- Hong Kong Phooey car that players can race around the track.
- Penry-shaped target that players can shoot with a ball to score bonus points.
- mini-game where players help Hong Kong Phooey rescue Penny from danger.
- ramp that launches the ball into the air, where it can hit targets and score bonus points.
- spinning bumper that knocks the ball around the playfield, giving players a chance to score more points.
- drop target that players can hit to score points and activate special features.
- multi-ball feature where players can control two or more balls at the same time.
- jackpot feature where players can win a large number of points by completing certain tasks.
- Hong Kong Phooey pinball machine would be a fun and challenging game for players of all ages. It would be a great way to relive the classic cartoon show and experience the excitement of pinball all at the same time.
MMusic? Humm. Maybe a jukebox theme machine filled with music from a whole bunch of one-hit wonders??? They could probably buy all of the one-hit licenses cheap, and have a whole jukebox theme gameplay of music that people have heard of but never knew who the author was...
Again, AP is going to do what AP thinks they should do. But its fun spitballing here....
2 weeks later
I saw that NIB Houdini machines are now flowing into distribution. I haven't owned it in awhile, but it really is a masterpiece. Visually fun, and just enough depth to keep it interesting. Sure, a few hard shots, but just fun. (My catapult and stagedoor always worked great, so my experience was pristine). As a first title, AP had some growing pains, mostly associated with power handling and usage, but a really good machine that I would own again if I had the room.
Quoted from Ceemunkey:Houdini was brilliant - I sold mine in trade for a LoV (was just very keen to try it), but I really didn't see what all the fuss was about with the shots being too tight - nothing was impossible. The catapult shot was probably the hardest, but still I managed to get trunk multiball via the catapult almost every single game. Try playing ACNC - now THAT game will make you into a true sniper it is super hard (but also it's great).
I'd actually like to get another Houdini one day - my only gripe with it was the sound, it was so tinny and flat. The music was great and deserved a little bass I can't understand for the life of me why they didn't put a woofer in the cab.
They added the cabinet woofer in later production runs…
1 week later
My first Houdini at $5400 feels like I got such a bargain now.... (and probably greatly influenced why I was willing to take a chance on an unknown's machine in the first place.)
Quoted from MRG:Has anyone called a distributor lately for a current price? They have to be selling these lower than MSRP.
I am sure that the MSRP won't have changed, but API's distributors may not have the 'sales floor' contract rules that Stern imposes on their resellers, and if that's the case, could be willing to make a significant deal to get the sunk inventory off the books before year-end. That said, I would expect we are talking hundreds of dollars, not thousands.
1 month later
Houdini was a home run. For $5400 you got a NIB real grown-up visually stunning pinball with unique playfield toys/gimmicks, coupled with a couple developers and engineers that seemed to love their creativity, and even their early support capabilities. (yes, they had a couple of hardware hiccups, like the power distribution stuff and even the virtual EOS they tried, but they worked through them)
It would be great to see them re-take that place in the ranks, build quality & value. Knock a universal title out (i.e. Sherlock) with instant recognition, and they might have a chance.
Quoted from PinMonk:Would be great, but the people that made that happen are mostly gone from AP, some by attrition, and some by the will of David Fix (rosh - for no discernible reason).
AP has at least some demand for their standard base GTF model, but they refuse to build it. It's like the world's worst hostage standoff - they won't build the one people want/can afford until they sell enough of the expensive stupid one no one wants. They need to get over the fantasy of selling expensive fake tanks and start cranking out the one version of GTF that has faint demand and just get past this huge mistake.
rosh was a stand-out guy. I traded emails with Josh on a few weekends, and his ability to actually troubleshoot your USB upload data from the system was not just for show, he really dug into what was happening in YOUR machine. I felt like he took the bugs he saw, solved them, and then rolled it into the next code drop while we were trading emails!
Give someone a screw gun and a wire cutter, swap the glass and they can 'convert' the GTF inventory DLX to STD...
2 weeks later
Quoted from Compy:This.
Most everything on those games is something that can be bought from Pinball Life. Multimorphic makes most of the boards, there's not a lot of copy protection wankery in the operating system/software layer, so you can clone it to other devices in the future if you need to, and if things like ramps have enough demand, the market has a way of fixing that problem, as it has historically.
To my friends and colleagues that might still be there, I wish you well.
I am not sure on the P3 system, but most computer development systems have authoring tools on screen, and then when the software is 'done', they generate a 'compiled' image that runs on the hardware, but that image is NOT edittable by owners. The actual source code is what typically is needed to maintain a game's software long term. Cloning disks is easy, but maintaining it (like fixing bugs or adding features) requires source.
Does P3 ROC systems have the same development approach?
Quoted from Compy:I'm not talking about fixing bugs and making updates, I'm talking about the ability to lift and shift the image to a replacement computer if you need. The computers in APs games are all bog standard x86 machines. Unlike Pinball 2000, there aren't any hardware specific graphics software hooks in those games.
Also, the P3-ROC system is just the driver scheme. It talks to the host via USB. Whats beyond that on the PC can be anything from compiled code to high level scripting languages depending on the game.
Point taken. The Tiny Form-factor computer should be a replaceable part, if the basic specs are the same. (Chipset and CPU are the main specs that must be pretty close).
1 week later
Quoted from NYP:This is one of my personal favorites for flyers with spelling/grammar mistakes: https://nypinball.com/flyers/saturn/
Dat Saturn sheet mak me turn head two times, not sure I se wat I see.
Quoted from PinMonk:Kind of disingenuous to call it Barry's when it was barely a concept whitewood when he died. It's more whoever finished it than it is Barry's.
Also, what is "selling well" in Germany? Given the anemic US sales, it seems like anything in the mid double digits for Germany would be a deemed a runaway success.
I hope they have learned from the unlicensed morass and have given some licenses for those designers to work with.
A lot of entertainment work is credited to the 'original' author of the concept even if they never got it past an idea. Take a look at Michael Crichton, who died in 2008, but a number of works were released afterwards based on his original scraps of notes and outlines and credited (at least partially) to him. In that spirit, let's give this one to Barry (as a co-author to the person that finishes the game)...
Catching up on recent events... LTG joining AP is a PLUS that owners will appreciate, the new board set will reduce their cost of goods (but likely not lower the MSRP to be seen by potential buyers), and they have an upcoming golden opportunity to discuss a new title at the upcoming TPF. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt for the next 6 weeks and we'll see how they fair at that time...
1 month later
Quoted from CapeCodPin:I felt that way about Houdini before the rumors and changes started. I'm new to ownership and only have room for 2 machines, so theme is almost as important as long term playability to me. I have a GZ premium that I love and Houdini resonates as a theme to me, but I've never played it. They'll be represented at Pintastic so I'll get the chance. Just not sure of the company given some of this thread.
Houdini is a great machine. Assuming they stay in business, you'll love it. Visually stunning, great ruleset and well integrated theme (thanks @rosh) , fun playfield gadgets (albeit a bit of a maintenance challenge). I wish I still had mine...
Quoted from TreyBo69:Yep, it's live on their website[quoted image][quoted image]
Is that an old Gottlieb style shooter rod/plate?
Nice to see an actual new machine from API. Funny they don't have alot of images posted. It's not my kind of theme but, they will offer two versions, $7K and $8.5K... the extra $1500 and gets you:
Red Powder Coated Side Armor, (value $250)
Aura Lighting System Pre-Installed (Is this a flamin' frame with laser cut metal kinda thing? Value $250)
Magic Glass, (Value $300)
Shaker, (Value $125)
Knocker, (Value $50)
Limited BBQ Red Cooking Apron, (Value: 'Priceless')
Limited Edition Brass Plate (Value: 'Priceless')
Quoted from Happy81724:Yeah, seems like two spots that chip. By the magnet and on the right up kick. I emailed cliff about cliffys but he never replied. I was hoping they made them as I couldn’t find it on his site
With so few machines out there, and the amount of work that goes into designing and setting up production for a 'new' protector, the priority would be low.
Quoted from Scoot:I got an email from Cliffy and he stated he is starting orders from July. I imagine he will make them eventually but being a one man operation, it may be a while. Worth it though.
I am sure he is looking for volunteers that have a machine to help him with disassembled photos and test fit cardboard samples. That would help speed his process to be sure. Bonus points if you are in Northern California since the process would be faster.
Quoted from Charlemagne1987:I’ve thought about that. The Steamboat Willie homebrew from a few years ago was great! However, I think manufacturers would probably steer away from doing that out of fear of pissing off Disney. They have so many properties that lend themselves to pinball. If Disney blacklisted a particular manufacturer over them making an unauthorized Steamboat Willie it could really hurt that company should they decide they wanted to do another Disney theme down the road.
Of course that’s all pretty much irrelevant when the discussion is about AP since they don’t do many licenses and the ones they do pick tend to be low-hanging fruit.
You don't have to "authorize" public domain content, but if they REALLY wanted to make friends with DISNEY and had a great and faithful vision in hand for Steamboat's translation to playfield, they could pitch a "Disney's Steamboat Willie" being very specific to use the DISNEY trademark logo and then pay the licensing fee to Disney for their logo only, which might be a lower cost license (but that kinda defeats the whole Public Domain free idea....)
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