Don't think production capacity is the problem. David Fix days they have three lines. Machines to produce is the issue.

As long as it's got lots of Nordman ramps on it, I'm pretty open to whatever theme they want it to be. I already have a White Water so I don't particularly need a second river rafting game anyway.

Indeed! The only thing left is to have actual animations instead of still images sliding around like on LoV.

I still haven't been able to try either of these, but in January we're traveling for a volleyball tournament in Charlotte and there's a Houdini there so I'll finally be able to play one. It's a super cool looking machine with the locks & chains, plus that massive ball launch into the crate - can't wait to play it!

With respect, Fix has said a lot of things about AP that have been slow to materialize. If they have 3 lines, they aren't very fast moving.

I say this as a fan of the company - I really enjoyed Hot Wheels when I owned it for a bit last year, and I've enjoyed LOV when I could find it. But their machines seem in sparse public supply and their lack of licensing clout has been noticeable. I really hope 2023 is the year this all changes, but I also thought 2022 was gonna be that year.

He certainly has.

If they have 3 lines they should have finished LoV limited deluxe and classic. None have been seen on the marketplaces, and have their next game out.

I really hope American can release some new games and get their stuff together. I think Spooky will pass them up if things don't really change. I did enjoy Hot Wheels when it was on location. American really needs to at least put out 1 new game a year to keep competitive or they will go the way of the dodo

I agree. If AP/Spooky continue to be successful all that does is breed competition. It will make Stern/JJP step up their game. It will be good for the industry and all of us. I just really hope they can turn out 1 or 2 new games a year.

How do you pass someone you've never trailed? Spooky has been around longer than AP, put out more titles, and shipped more machines.

I would say AP may have better QC and support though. Everyone is slow to ship atm... Plus you have AP's company owner take over and such. lots of things in motion.

It doesn't matter how many titles they put out, as long as the product they are making is selling, that's all they need to do.

The idea that a company has to grow and produce more to succeed is nonsense. Many manufacturers choose their sweet spot and as long as their product moves and keeps them operational, that's often good enough. Who cares if one company grows bigger than the other, growing has a ton of pain behind it, you gotta expand everything, building, utilities, employees, insurance, etc.

Truth. I purposely limit my business to the size it is that keeps me in toys and beer for an hour a days work.

I feel like American pinball is in a good spot, the majority of pinball fans I talk to have them on their radar. People are waiting on a theme that grabs them. I personally had 2 themes I liked out the gate with Houdini and Oktoberfest now I’m chomping at the bit for this new game.

I disagree it does matter how many new titles they pump out. If you release one game every 2-3 years people will lose interest. Why would anyone follow a company if it does not put anything new out. It gets boring and people tend to want the latest and greatest. Imagine if Stern waited 3 years to release 007 after Godzilla. As a business standpoint that does not make any sense. You will lose customers. A company must grow to be successful its business 101. Businesses who fail to grow and flourish die out. Why do you think so many businesses go belly up in the first few years? The initial excitement wears off and you have to keep your core base happy as well as attract new customers.

As a businessman i disagree with every word you wrote.

As a customer of pinball companies I'm perfectly capable of waiting a couple of years for a new release. I'm a grown man and delayed gratification is just fine and it's how i got what i wanted in the first place.

American has a seasoned pinball designer with a bunch of well-regarded games under his belt on staff now. That's an important component Spooky still lacks.

I’m more excited about American’s new pinballs with Nordman than Bond, maybe it should have baked a bit longer

Only in the land of Pinside, where people cheerlead companies like sports teams and spend all day waiting for the next game to talk about.

In the real world most people don't care who's brand is on the game, or need to know what a company's pipeline looks like, they just buy things that look cool when they appear.

A rep for making games that aren't constantly full of issues helps, as does support, but frequency of releases? Nah.

Agreed. Everything else is manchild.

If you're not releasing new games, you're not selling many games. If you're not selling many games, you're not making money. Whether or not you're making money, you're spending money. How long can you do one without the other?

You lost it when you made the quantum jump from not releasing a new game = not selling many games.

Stern could stop releasing games and just produce the backlog for the next 5 years. That's what AP has been doing and it's working fine. You have to think that people who are running a business that is stable have a fair idea what they are doing, no matter what people think from the sidelines.

I haven't released a new model still in a while, but people keep buying the last models because they are *still* as good as they get.

AP ain't Stern. AP is not selling many games.

You seen their order books?

And the answer i gave you was to your general question, not to wriggle out by using one company against another.

#If you're not releasing new games, you're not selling many games.#

This statement has a dodgy leap of logic, no matter which company you speak of.

I'm speaking specifically about them. You are of course welcome to believe whatever you like.

Aaahh, so it's what you believe?

You confused me when you put it as a statement of fact.

You might want to check out the pinball news article. AP has plenty of orders. It also explains the production delays and the plans for current and future games.

https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2022/11/03/american-pinball-visit-2/

M

But don't let the facts get in the way.

This isn't a comic book franchise, pinball buyers don't really care who makes what, as long as it's a game they want, they will buy it.

And what? That is NOT business 101. Neither is it the reason a company would even go belly up. If you produce a product the consumer buys and it is making your company profit, that is business 101.

Growth has absolutely nothing at all to do with success or how a business is meant to be run, and in truth the big reason so many business do fail, is because they grow too big too fast and are not properly managed.

I've been in business for myself for over 26 years successfully. And you know what, we chose long ago to stop growing, we reached a happy existence and even turned down opportunities to grow, why? Because it wasn't needed. We are successful, we offer limited product offerings, we are good at what we do any we make it work. We make enough to live by and have zero debts while still making a little profit. We are happy, efficient, and don't need to bother with the hassles of growth.

No company ever expands infinitely either, even the largest of companies often have to scale back and that's a problem with growth, you become less flexible to change and when your forced into it, it's a major event that involves loads of money, loss of jobs, the loss of shareholder positions, etc

Sing it, brother.

I just spent a lot of time with Legends of Valhalla and was surprised by how much I liked it. Liked it so much I’m questioning whether the Godzilla, Iron Maiden or Monster Bash I’ve been setting aside funds for are worth the premiums they command over it. I like Oktoberfest and Hot Wheels but am pretty indifferent about the themes, LOV however may be my first American Pin

I agree.

AP is definitely selling enough games to keep the business running while they are pouring a lot of effort into future game releases.

I rather them take their time and come out of the gate with another solid product than seeing them have quality issues like others are having because they released a game too soon.

Anyone know how soon we are going to see their game I know they wanted it out before the new year but that doesn’t seem like that’s happening and they haven’t released their own new title in years; it’s been very lackluster from them since the new regime has taken over for sure

Huh?

But i think thats what this thread is for, and it has not been answered yet. Stay tuned!

I was really interested in LOV until I finally settled on my GZ (my first NIB). I'm going to wait to see what Nordman has in store, but I agree I think LOV looks awesome. I'd love to flip one in the wild.

Based on what? Just over 100 pinsiders show they own LOV, and that game has been out for over a year. Obviously not all games are sold to pinsiders, but, that number seems awfully low. Compare it to HWN/UM which game out shortly before LOV and have like 700 owners on pinside. LOV shoots really nice and has been well received, so is it production issues, unlicensed theme, both, or ??? How many of their other titles have they shipped this year? You would think less than LOV as that is the newest title. If they have two or three lines, must be awfully slow moving.

Hard to understand what is going on with AP. Seemed like they were making progress with each game, putting out about one game a year, but now nothing for three years, other than LOV, which they did not even design. David Fix went on podcasts talking big, about how they were going to do 2 games a year, with half being licensed themes, and he would get all the assets. Meanwhile, if what has been posted in this thread is correct, the next three games are all unlicensed? Seems odd it is taking so long, considering they went from nothing to shipping their first game in like a year when Balcer and Kugler were there.

I am looking forward to see Nordman's game (and the next if it is a ww sequel), but unlicensed themes don't sell well these days, so hard to understand what their strategy is, unless they just want to remain a small boutique company, but that factory looks awfully big for a boutique. Hopefully all of the time they are taking pays off with a big hit, seems like they need it.

I was supposed to finally get to try a Legends of Valhalla last night, but turns out the Pinballmap entry was out of date and they didn't have it anymore. They did have a Hot Wheels but I wasn't that much interested in it.

So, I'm still working on finding a LoV and a Houdini to try out, and I don't want to buy one until I get to play them so availability is a big blocker for me. The other blocker is that I suspect that a new Nordman design will be better than either so part of me says that I'm better off waiting until Galactic Tank Wars is revealed - presumably at Texas Pinball Fest in March. That's a long wait though, it would be great to get something before then even if it's just a few pics of the playfield or whatever.

I enjoyed Houdini. Yes, some of the shots were tight, but the theme integration was really great and the card minigame was my favorite. The first and best AP machine. Bring on the Nordman designs!

Spooky has already passed them

Oh so pinball palace doesn’t have legends of valhalla anymore? Even their website has it, so they should update both. Looks like nearest place is Orlando,fla unfortunately or maybe a pinhead nearby has the game. Hope you to get to try LOV!

We were at District Eat & Play in Oviedo.

Hard to believe that Pinball Palace wouldn't have it... they seem to have EVERY modern game, and a good % of the older ones too...

I played it at pinball palace about 1 month ago. I would imagine that it’s still there.

We'll try to hit Pinball Palace next time.

LOV and OkT are both way better than GZ imo. GZ seems to have everything, but I just don't find it fun/exciting.
My AP games are bolted, GZ has 3legs out the door.

If you can wait a bit longer, American is working on their next pin "Galactic Tank Force" from Dennis Nordman and I expect they'll be showing it at Texas Pinball Fest in late March. Nordman has put out some great pins in the past, so I'm hoping this will be a big hit.

I did hear the rumors of the space themed pin. I do like that idea especially if its a new IP which gives them pretty much free reign. It should be interesting to see what they release next

Earliest I intend on buying one is this summer, maybe they'll have some demos at Southern Fried so I can check it out.

I understand it's just the market demand, but when I can buy a new pin for thousands under a Stern premium and I find them both fun to play, it's almost a no-brainer. I have several pins on my wish list that are 10+ years old and sell for close to, if not more than the same price. Also, I wouldn't mind having something different than a Stern or Williams. I like Halloween and TNA, but I haven't heard much good about Spooky's quality and TNA doesn't seem to do a lot for the money. American seems to have a good reputation, just haven't played a game I cared to own until LOV. Houdini might be great, I've just have never seen one in the wild.

It is great. I have gone on record to say it is one of the most underrated games in all of pinball.

What’s AP’s usual timeline from reveal to sales?