(UPDATED 11/20)
Heya pinside. So after the clearcoating disaster on my 73 gottlieb Hot Shot it's time for the " Why isn't this working now" round.

I'm slowly but surly working on all the various issues after re-assembly. I've solved a few myself, but I might need some help with more of them. I do have schematics but no way of scanning them right now. (Small town woes)

I'll attempt to list from most important to minor:

1:The bonus is so screwy. It only seems to count about half the bonus, and it gets to the 2000 and 3000 bonus it just seems to count however it wants. How the bonus (mechanically) works on this game isn't immediately obvious to me so any starting places to look would be appreciated.
2:The outhole seems to act however it wants. It's working (mostly) for now, however for a while it wouldn't work or count down the bonus if the first ball relay was activated.
2.5: An extension of the above problem, I've noticed that once the bonus is done counting down, the ball return control relay chatters rapidly as if it can't lock on. I'm also seeing bright blue sparks when that happens. I've checked the relays self locking switch and it seems to be ok. Maybe it's still not good enough? It still kicks the ball out, but it might be causing underlying issues.
2.9: The trough switch also activates the outhole, so it kicks the ball out, runs over the trough switch which is activating the outhole again.
3: I have the second coin chute set to add 5 plays when activated. It does so, however the knocker fires after it adds the plays on which doesn't sound right.

I"ll update the first post as issues are resolved. If anyone has any ideas to point me in the right direction go ahead, I"ll explain things is more detail to the best of my ability as needed.

I do know rougly how but I don't have jumpers on hand. I can grab some later on this week, so where do you recommend I set my jumpers?

I posted that right as you posted yours lol.

Yes I do have schematics and I"m working through them as I can. Thanks for the link really useful stuff.

OK BOYS WE CAN CHALK THIS INTO THE 'I SERIOUSLY DID THAT AGAIN" CATEGORY!

I was doing some ohming out of the jones plugs and I noticed a SET OF FEMALE JONES PLUGS WITH NOTHING HOOKED UP. I looked inside the cabinet again and hidden underneath the board was a plug. Put it in, the entire playfield pretty much came to life.

The best part is, THIS IS THE EXACT SAME THING I DID ON MY FIRST PINBALL MACHINE WITH THE EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS YET I DIDN"T THINK TO CHECK. In all fairness this connector was directly under the third player scoring so it's almost impossible to see with how I have it set up.

I should just post here everytime I have an issue. I can be chasing an problem for 3 days, post here for help and then figure it out myself in 5 minutes. (happened before) I'm going to sleep for now, and I"ll report back how much was fixed/what needs to still be solved.

Updated main post with the new big issue regarding the bonus.

Thanks for the advice, fair enough point I"ll keep the OP the same for now.

So on the knocker, yes I've checked the W relay and it's all looking good. It only happens when the second chute is set to 4-5 plays, so I'm thinking it's a timing issue with a switch opening or closing just a bit too early. That or there's a short SOMEWHERE.

On the outhole, looking at the schematics on mine that was the same conclusion I kept reaching but it seemed so silly. If at all possible could you post the section of orbit's schematics that have to do with the outhole so I can compare?

I did the tests as you said. With drop targets 1, 2, 3 down individually they score 1000 each time. Once I dropped all three, it only scored 2000. It seems like it's skipping every other section of the disk if there's targets down in succession. Same results from testing the 2000 and 3000 bonus.

So I was doing some inspecting of the score motor switches and I was looking at the last switch on 1b (which is a bonus control switch) and I saw that it was also soldered to a switch on 1c. I don't remember this from when I took the score motor apart for cleaning but my memory isn't good and I do remember another switch on the motor doing this. Just want to make sure this is correct.

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Positive. I tired to separate them and they're stuck together. I confirmed with my multi meter that they're both connected.

EDIT: Ok so it WAS soldered together. It was a cold joint though so I was able to break them apart. I turned it back on and it's not double steping anymore. It's still not counting the full bonus right, so my next step is gonna be investigating the G (8 ball) relay as well as make sure the wipers on the disk of the bonus unit are clean.

Ok so update. I took the disk of the bonus unit off again and cleaned it/polished it again. I also adjusted the runoff switch on the bonus unit so it should be making good contact no mater if the cam is shaky or not. First couple times it didn't work right, then after about 3 or 4 resets it started working better. I stopped working on it when I had 2 working 15 bonus resets. I think I"m on the right track, maybe the screws holding the disk aren't tight enough and they aren't making a firm connection. I'm also going to go back to the J relay and make sure the switches associated with it locking on are firm and making a good connection. It seems 100% intermittent now, so it's just trail and error to figure out which parts are now.

The knocker is still an issue. I'm gonna check the score motor switch that releases the W relay and see if it's too close together. It might be activating just SLIGHTLY too early so it's release W just before the tick on A1 that's activating the 5th credit on the credit unit unit. About all I can think of, as if that switch was stuck closed the knocker would be activating 5 times.

Also apparently soldering lamp sockets is a pain. In an attempt to fix the intermittent lamp sockets, I"m doing what Clay recommends and soldering the wires from the loop directly to the lamp. The "tit" on the lamps don't want to take solder even after I clean then with my dremel. Guess it's finally time to stop being lazy and invest in flux eh?

Thanks for the advice on using a heat gun. Still a pain with how corroded the sockets are but I was able to fix the ones that were dim/intermittent.

I finally got the knocker silenced. As I thought the switch on score motor switch 2b was opening just SLIGHTLY too early and causing the W relay to lose power just before the 5th tick of the credit wheel. Setting it to close sooner fixed the timing issue. Amazing how milliseconds can make the difference.

The bonus unit seems to working good. At most right now it seems to miss one beat or so but as it`s used it seems to work more consistently. Still need to do those J adjustments but I think its good enough for now.

Mainly minor stuff remaining that I can figure out myself now. Still waiting on parts, but I`ll keep posted if issues remain. Thanks for the help so far everyone!

Bumpin my thread because I spoke too soon. Right now it is 100% random if it counts a bonus or not when a drop is down. Sometime is only skips one, sometimes it skips 6. I just finished taking apart the bonus unit for the third time. Those rivets are about as shiny and clean as they've been in 40 years. I also cleaned the shoes on the unit.

From watching the relays C never loses power, it stays on for the whole bonus so I can rule out the bonus units runnout switch.

I've cleaned and adjusted the drop target switches about 3 times now as well. All the lights on the playfield are working so I can't see that being the issue.

At this point my only idea is something on either the J relay, I relay or a switch on the score motor. I've checked everything I can think of and I"m running out of ideas. I'm gonna go ahead and clean the jones plugs again (Both male and female) to completely rule those out but I really don't see them being the issue.

Any other input is appreciated, I'm getting kinda baffled here as to the 100% random nature of the problem. I cannot get a single consistent bonus countdown. Numbers it counted one reset it will skip over the next and vice versa.

The process I'm doing to save myself time is dropping every target, collecting the 8 ball, then holding in the outhole switch to simulate the ball draining. (Playfield is in service position so I can watch everything easier) I'm doing that over and over to try and narrow things down to no avail.

I've been trying to establish a pattern of some kind but I cannot find anything consistent. Just today I tried, it counted all 15 balls the first time. I did it again, and it skipped over balls 14 and 15 I think. If I did it again I would prob get a different results again like I was last night.

Again I'd think if it was a DT switch it would also effect the playfield lamps. Last night I removed the fuses on the drop target resets so I could just keep running the bonus unit, and even without touching the DT switches the intermediate behavior still happened.

I did notice some sparking on 1a last night which I assumed was normal. Maybe I give it another look. I"m also going to take stack 1c off so I can properly inspect the switches on 1b. I also notice the occasional spark on J, which I cannot narrow down if it's the relay failing to lock on, or simply not actuating properly due to the bonus unit double stepping. I've cleaned/adjusted those switches so many times now. I"ll take a MM to it later just to be safe.

@rolf Yes I get 500 every time. That part is working properly. Far as I can tell the stepper is working as you described it. I'll attach some pictures of the bonus unit in it's rest position on the off chance something is off.

Because of how fast everything happens I'm having a hard time narrowing down exactly what's happening. I feel like the problem has to do either with J not locking in properly every now and then, or the bonus unit getting power when it shouldn't be. Maybe tonight I'll pull out my phone and record the actions of the J/I relays so more experienced users can see what's going on. (After I do some more score motor work)

Top view
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Bottom view
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So I went ahead and made a short video to show the random behavior of the bonus unit.

rolf_martin_062 The problem isn't that it isn't scoring points per say. If the bonus unit stops on a rivet it will score points every time. The problem is it's skipping some balls when it's "searching" for downed drop targets, even if said targets are down. Hopefully the video I posted will be able to illustrate what I"m trying to say. I know, I'm horrible at explaining problems :p

I've done that 3 times or so. At this point I think cleaning them again would cause more issues when it would solve.

From watching the video again it seems like j tries to actuate twice when it double steps. I'm gonna take the playfield out tomorrow so I can get at the bonus control switches easier, and clean/adjust/ohm out ever single switch on C, J and I. About all I can think to do at this point.

Drop target switches have been cleaned about 3 times as well. I'll take my meter to them later as well. Again I think cleaning would do more damage at this point.

The wire yes does look messy, but trust me it looks better then how it did. The original wire was missing so I had to cobble together a new jumper. I'll check with my meter anyhow but I'm fairly sure it's ok.

Alright so I went ahead and replaced the jumper wire, confirmed with my multimeter that they're making good contact. It worked good at first, then after about 2-3 countdowns it started acting up again.

I've noticed that if you go from cold start (turning it on after it's been sitting dormant for a while) it works fine the first time or 2. Then as I continue to run the bonus unit it starts skipping.

Considering this issue has evolved into a major issue, should I start a new thread to try and condense what's already been tried?

Took the playfield out tonight. I cleaned and ohmed out every single switch on J,I,C, and the relevant score motor switches I hadn't ohmed out yet. I've ohmed out the snowshoes on the bonus unit, still no dice.

I'd say I"m completely out of ideas but I did find one thing. On the outmost switch on score motor 2b, (which controls the lock for I relay) I noticed that the contact on one of the leaf blades has burned off. I adjusted it, and I was able to ohm it out as good with only one contact. It's about the ONLY think I can think of that might be causing this intermittent behavior. I don't understand how, unless the missing pad is causing some weird timing issue. I actually found this burned contact a long time ago, but never did anything about it cause I got readings on my meter even with the switch being damaged.

I guess just to completely rule it out I should repair this. Noob question though, is there ANY easy way to replace the contact without have to pry the entire switch apart and replace the blade? Could I steal a contact off another leaf blade and solder it on?

This machine is going to be the death of me.

So I went ahead and de-soldered the switch stack in question (after having it fall apart twice of me) and was (somehow) able to solder on a new contact. It's a little lopsided and it ain't pretty but I didn't have a blade on hand to try and outright replace it. My meter says it's getting proper continuity so we'll see if it lasts. I tired forcing the contact off to test the solder and it seemed firm.

However if my struggle I broke off the plastic spacer. Now normally at this point I'd be getting ahold of my normal pinball guys, however 1: I need to be done this machine soonish as someone else needs to use the room that I"m using and 2: I still need to pay off my last order to PBR which might be a while. So in an attempt to salvage this I mixed up some expoy and tried to glue the spacer back on. While I had it mixed I put a little on the underside of the new contact to try and re-enforce it cause I REALLY don't trust my solder job.

This switch wins the award of the most cobbled together switch ever, but assuming the expoy holds this should work for at least a while until I can come back and replace everything proper. If anyone has just so happens to have a switch of this style I'd be happy to buy it lol.

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Interesting idea with the lights. I REALLY need to stop being lazy and buy some alligator clips anyhow so this might be a good excuse to.

I still need to re-install my cobbled together switch, so once that's done I"ll report back.

I just want to say for the record, when I got this machine I was excited because I said "This is gonna be a quick project". One ruined playfield, two rebuilt droptargets and dozens of hair pulling troubleshooting hours later.......

I didn't have a new contact on had so I had to dremel one out of an old switch. I prob could have done it from the other side but it was 3 in the morning, I was tired. Also fair point on ohming.

Ok so everything is back in place and I've been testing/troubleshooting for about 3 hours now. I've lost the 500 point relay, but I'm not concerned. The D (500 point) relay lockin was on the same switch stack I had to replace the contact (2b) on so I probs just borked the connection.

So I am getting different behavior now. The timing on everything seems much faster now, and I'd say about 8-9 times out of 10 it's counting a full bonus. (All drop targets downs, 8 ball collected). I'll quickly go over everything I did to get to this point :

1: Adjusted switches on 3c, 2c, and 1c that have to do with the bonus.
2: Moved every drop target switch closer together to try and get a more firm connect. (I'll jump these switches once I get some alligator clips to completely rule them out)
3: Took apart the bonus unit AGAIN. I tinned/sanded the snowshoes on the bonus unit just in case all my cleaning ended up screwing something up. I also applied a SMALL amount of super lube so everything glides a little better.
4: Cleaned the connection on the 8 ball relay so it's making proper contact.

So it's counting down a full bonus most of the time, good! So new problem now.

If I drop random targets, the random counting behavior starts up again. It seems SOMEWHAT more reliable if I drop every other target, but if I sink random targets it will sometimes count them properly, sometimes not.

However watching the I relay gave me a clue. If I sink every target, collect the 8 ball and then start the bonus, it counts down properly, but the I relay seems to vibrate instead of cleanly pulling in after J pulls in.

Also, if it skips a ball, instead of just skipping over completely like it was it will (usually) pause for about half a sec and then continue. This is leading me to think the I relay is defiantly the new suspect. I need a break for now, but I"ll go back to it tomorrow. I found my alligator clips FINALLY so I just need a spool of wire to lengthen them, as well as the bulbs. I'll report back once I have the setup as rolf describes it or if I find any other revelations.

So according to recent surveys 9/10 pinsiders agree that soldering the correct wire to the right switch helps things out.

I was checking my wiring again and I noticed I SOMEHOW put 2 wires in the wrong tabs. This was why the 500 point relay was dead, and the odd bonus behavior.

I moved them over and I am noticing an increase in reliability. At the most it only skips one ball, but it seems to count the bonus right about 4/5 times. I"m still going to create rofl's setup but I think replacing that burned out contact very much made everything work better. I'm noticing the bonus pausing much more though, not sure if it's intended but I still suspect a switch somewhere still isn't quite correct. Update tomorrow when I get my supplies.

Ok setup is done! So I can confirm it works and I did make a video, however be warned it's not very good quality right now.

I have to leave for work in about an hour as of typing this, and after today I won't have time to work on the machine until at least sunday-monday. So until then I wanted at least post SOMETHING so that you guys can try to get a handle on this and maybe notice something I'm missing. As you've prob noticed the odd behavior is back full swing today so yay......

Interesting thoughts. I'm gonna be stepping away from the machine for a few days to take a break and focus on work, but I"ll do what you say after I get back.

As for you question, yes there's a small switch on the underside of the unit. The disk on the bonus unit has 2 small notchs taken out of it, so that when it steps away from it's home position the disk activates the switch. When it arrives back into it's home position, the activator on the switch falls into the second notch and releases the switch.

At this point I do highly suspect some weird timing issue on the score motor. Working on this an studying the motor sequence chart I've realized just how "tight" the timing on everything is. This is one time I almost wish the score motor would run slower so I can actually keep up with what's going on lol.

I had a thought, I wonder cause this machine was stored in a damp climate before I got it, if the metal blade that activates the switches on 1b (or maybe some other switches) is bent out of shape a bit, causing it to activate later then it should. Well another thing to possibly look into.

And no, I unfortunately don't have spare parts. I keep everything I remove from my machines, but if I"m removing something it's usually because it's trashed beyond use. (Broken plastics, melted coils ect)

Ok so while I was at work I was looking over rolf's post and I think and I THINK I understand how the bonus works now. I"m still going to refrain from working on the machine, but I want to confirm that I have the right idea on how the bonus actually works. Cause if I'm understanding this right I have some ideas as to what to try next.
I'm going to write this as if every drop target it down for simplicity sakes. Other conditions would create additional steps.

1: The ball drains, which opens a path to the C relay. The relay pulls in, starts the score motor spinning and opens a path to J, "I" and the bonus coil.
2: With the bonus unit in it's home position and drop target 1 down, the J relay pulls in, which closes the path to the bonus advance.
3:With J pulled in, "I" locks in through score motor switch 2b at the end of the 120 degree cycle.
4:The score motor reaches it's home position, and the make/break switch on 1c changes states, releasing the J relay. However now "I" is locked in, so the make/break switch on "I" stops the bonus unit from advancing.
5: With "I" locked in, the score motor sends a tick to the L relay through motor switches 1a and 1d scoring 1000 points.
6: At about the 80 degree point 1b activates, which opens a path to the bonus advance coil through the make/break on "I".
7: IMMEDIATELY after the bonus unit advances, the normally closed switch on 3c changes states, which releases the "I" relay.
8: With the "I" relay off, the bonus unit advanced and the next down drop detected, J is free to pull in again, which stops the last tick of 1a from advancing the bonus unit further.
9: With J now pulled in and locked on through 1c and it's own contact, the "I' relay is free to pull in at 2b and the cycle starts over again at step 4.

From what I can gather this is generally how the bonus should count down if every drop is down. It repeats 14 times for every target before arrive back at it's home position.

And rolf, if my understanding of this is right the reason there's a lockon to the J relay is because J needs to be activated for I to pull in. However once "I" tires to actuate, without the 1c lockin the normally closed switch on "I" would open and cut power to the J relay. So in essence the 2 would cancel each other out, I think.

Now assuming how I described the bonus is right I watched my video and and noticed that when I had every target down and (most of the time) when it double stepped, it was followed almost immediately by the L relay ticking, meaning it scored points. I thought the double ticking might have been the J relay not getting power.

However if J doesn't get power, then "I" wouldn't get power either. 1b ticks the bonus unit once, then after that if J didn't receive power the last tick of 1a would advance the unit. At that point, it's too late for J to pull in so it can give power to "I". If it did truly skip over a ball because a connection to J couldn't be made, then the bonus counting should pause, as the score motor cycles around again to give power to "I" as in step 3.

This is mostly just my after work ramblings, but I wanted to get this down before I completely forgot lol.

Ok so back to work on the machine!

So armed with my new knowledge of how the bonus works I did a few more things:

1: Release the pressure on the normally closed switches on J, so they open earlier and cit power to the bonus unit sooner.
2: Moved the normally closed switches on "I" closer so the J relay can pull in sooner after "I" loses power.
3: Moved the end switch of 1b closer together so it activates sooner
4: Adjusted the contacts of 1a so they open later, giving J and I more time to work. (probs gonna undo this change)
5: Moved end switch 2b closer together so "I" can pull in sooner
6: Adjusted normally open switch on C to completely rule out intermittent contact to J.

Still no dice, double stepping is still happening. At this point I have 2 theories:

1: The last tick of 1a is somehow getting power to the bonus unit when it shouldn't due to some mis-adjusted switch
2: There's some sort of intermittent short going on either on the score motor, or a relevant switch somewhere.

I just wanna note I noticed that switch 1b that has to do with the bonus unit is also connected to the second switch on 1a. I can only see one wire going to it, so I ASSUME it's intentional. The wire appears to be orange blue.

Preliminary results seem poor thus far. Even after using the same home position on the motor, and even with using the same bonus home position there still seemed to be no rhyme or reason to the skipping.

I'll post an updated video of the bulbs later on today and go from there. Right now I'm just chasing ghosts lol.

Ok second take is done. (hopefully)

I did what you said and marked a home position. I then decided to do 4 takes at each home position so you could see the 2 home positions of the bonus unit twice per score motor home position. As you noticed my L relay light burned out at the beginning, but I don't think it's really relevant at this point and I was too lazy to make a new jumper lol.

Take your best shot, I"m taking a break till tomorrow.

Darn thought I kicked the problem.

I started her up today after some adjusting last night and I had 2 working bonus countdowns (didn't skip once). I then did some other testing and once again, it works for a bit then starts skipping again. GAAAAH

Also for your second point, I did do some testing with 3000 points, the faulty stepping is happening on the 4th or 5th tick of 1a. I don't have lights set up but I know the "rhythm" of how the switches get activated, so I can tell it's stepping on the forth tick of 1a (normal) or the 5th tick of 1a (not normal).

I can still set up the test lights, but I spent an hour fighting to bullet proof lamp sockets (seriously I HATE fixing lamp sockets) so I need a break.

Edit: I think I can say it's the last tick of 1a with some confidence. I'm noticing that sometimes on the double step I can 2 blue sparks instead of 1 from the 1a cam.

GAHHH I MIGHT BE GETTING SOMEWHERE.

So while doing my normal switch adjustment, I made it so the J relay switch that goes to the add bonus unit was so loosely making contact ANY movement of J would cut power to the bonus unit.

If I did that, I noticed that the bonus unit would sometimes get stuck trying to actuate. I look down at J and noticed it's SLIGHTLY pulled in, but not enough to do anything. So I assumed there might be something wrong with the lock relay so i did some adjustment, to no avail.

Then while working the relay I noticed, man this relay seems to be under a lot of spring pressure. Which I found weird considering that J is a low power relay as is.

Then something I've said myself about 20 times I finally tried, I replaced the spring with a new, but much weaker drop target spring. It was still strong enough to move the relay back into position.

I tried machine again, I counted 4 successful bonus. 2 were all targets down. 1 was entire left bank, one was completely random.

For reference THIS is what the spring looked like:
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I'm stepping away till tomorrow, I'll put the playfield down and see if we get anything in an actual game. If this was all it was I'm going to be kicking myself so hard for not trying this 3 weeks ago when I first had the thought.

It seems to be the shame kind as on the other relays. I look off U's spring for reference.

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It just looks bent out of shape.

Played a full game in the workshop, no issues. Game is set up, played it for 3 games, counted the bonus down properly every time. 3 weeks of troubleshooting and it was just a faulty spring.

She may be battled scared, have a messed up playfield and un-even inserts, but you know what? She's mine. Thanks for all the help, I'll update this thread again if I come across any other issues.
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