(Topic ID: 203130)

The Many Problems with my Gottlieb Hot Shot


By KingofKoopas

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by pinballbrian
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#1 2 years ago

(UPDATED 11/20)
Heya pinside. So after the clearcoating disaster on my 73 gottlieb Hot Shot it's time for the " Why isn't this working now" round.

I'm slowly but surly working on all the various issues after re-assembly. I've solved a few myself, but I might need some help with more of them. I do have schematics but no way of scanning them right now. (Small town woes)

I'll attempt to list from most important to minor:

1:The bonus is so screwy. It only seems to count about half the bonus, and it gets to the 2000 and 3000 bonus it just seems to count however it wants. How the bonus (mechanically) works on this game isn't immediately obvious to me so any starting places to look would be appreciated.
2:The outhole seems to act however it wants. It's working (mostly) for now, however for a while it wouldn't work or count down the bonus if the first ball relay was activated.
2.5: An extension of the above problem, I've noticed that once the bonus is done counting down, the ball return control relay chatters rapidly as if it can't lock on. I'm also seeing bright blue sparks when that happens. I've checked the relays self locking switch and it seems to be ok. Maybe it's still not good enough? It still kicks the ball out, but it might be causing underlying issues.
2.9: The trough switch also activates the outhole, so it kicks the ball out, runs over the trough switch which is activating the outhole again.
3: I have the second coin chute set to add 5 plays when activated. It does so, however the knocker fires after it adds the plays on which doesn't sound right.

I"ll update the first post as issues are resolved. If anyone has any ideas to point me in the right direction go ahead, I"ll explain things is more detail to the best of my ability as needed.

#2 2 years ago

In my limited experience with em games (I’ve also been working for a while on a Hot Shot) I think the a & o are the leaf switches. If they are are not making good contact the game won’t work right. So I’ll clean, test, measure resistance, clean, maybe bend a bit, maybe it works, but tomorrow it doesn’t work again, so I start over again. I didn’t have the courage to use the high pressure water jet or garden hose on my game like some people recommend.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from KingofKoopas:

1: Nothing on the playfield scores besides the 500 points scores

Follow the 10 point circuit to narrow down where the problem is. Do you know how to use Alligator Clip jumper wires?

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#4 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Follow the 10 point circuit to narrow down where the problem is. Do you know how to use Alligator Clip jumper wires?

There's a great section on doing this on pinwiki: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Testing_with_a_Jumper_Wire

#5 2 years ago

I do know rougly how but I don't have jumpers on hand. I can grab some later on this week, so where do you recommend I set my jumpers?

#6 2 years ago

the document will tell you where. You start at the coil not firing and work your way back through the switches. Eventually you will hit a switch that triggers the coil from one side but not the other. That switch then needs to be cleaned/adjusted before you continue

Do you have the schematic for this game? If not you're going to need it.

#7 2 years ago

I posted that right as you posted yours lol.

Yes I do have schematics and I"m working through them as I can. Thanks for the link really useful stuff.

#8 2 years ago

OK BOYS WE CAN CHALK THIS INTO THE 'I SERIOUSLY DID THAT AGAIN" CATEGORY!

I was doing some ohming out of the jones plugs and I noticed a SET OF FEMALE JONES PLUGS WITH NOTHING HOOKED UP. I looked inside the cabinet again and hidden underneath the board was a plug. Put it in, the entire playfield pretty much came to life.

The best part is, THIS IS THE EXACT SAME THING I DID ON MY FIRST PINBALL MACHINE WITH THE EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS YET I DIDN"T THINK TO CHECK. In all fairness this connector was directly under the third player scoring so it's almost impossible to see with how I have it set up.

I should just post here everytime I have an issue. I can be chasing an problem for 3 days, post here for help and then figure it out myself in 5 minutes. (happened before) I'm going to sleep for now, and I"ll report back how much was fixed/what needs to still be solved.

#9 2 years ago

LOL I've done that. Mine was "Why aren't the score reels resetting? hmmm it would help if I connected the backbox!"

#10 2 years ago

You fixed it yourself! Give yourself a big pat on the back!!!

#11 2 years ago

Updated main post with the new big issue regarding the bonus.

#12 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
I wonder what the result would be on a poll to the question "Do You like when the OP edits his first post - keeping up with 'progress made' ?" --- I would vote "No". I see that You want to make it easy for helpers - but when in the future somebody wants to study the topic ...

You throw-in a coin into the second coin-chute and the pin steps-up the Replay-Counter five steps.
Some pins ONLY let the knocker to knock when we make an Replay by the Score-Drums or by making an Special or at the end of the game maybe No-Match-Replay. Other pins have this PLUS when throwing-in a coin to add credits. YOUR pin is of ONLY type --- there is an "Switch on the W-2nd-Chute-Relay" - this switch opens when the W-Relay pulls-in and this hinders the Knocker to knock. This switch has soldered-on wire-white-blue and wire-orange-green --- all good in Your pin ?

Your Trough-switch also activates the Outhole-Relay - the Gottlieb-Ball-Return-Relay --- and so the Ball-Kicker kicks a second time. I think this is not a fault - this is "lousy design". I have an "Orbit" with the same "problem" - see http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1724&picno=19273 - to the left of the spinner is a "moved, stepped light(s) - kind of an circle". Kicking-out a new ball and this light must be stepped forward to reach position-zero. The Outhole-Relay pulls, makes the motor to turn 120 degrees --- up to 5 steps are possible (within this turn of 120 degrees). Sometimes there are 6,7,8,9 steps needed --- quirky Gottlieb solution: "Lets implement 'Ball-Through-Switch activates the Outhole-Relay again' so the remaining steps on the moved lights will be stepped --- people want to play and do not bother about 'not needed second kick on the ball-kicker' ".
In the schematics "Hot Shot" I believe to see the samy quirky wiring as in "Orbit".

The bonus is screwy --- I see that You have an "Pioneer" in Your collection of pins. The Bonus on Pioneer I call regular, normal --- You step it up - step by step and when the ball drains: The Bonus-Ladder is stepped down - step by step --- we see it on the playfield and we see it on the Score-Drums. Target Alpha and Hot Shot and others have another handling on the bonus - I call it "special, position-orientated". Every time a ball drains: A stepper*** is stepped through ALL 15 positions - on every position a short "halt - checking 'me the pin, must I give 1000 points on this position ?' " then a step and "halt ..." and step and "halt ...".
Always stepping through all 15 positions and on every position the question of 'must I give 1000 points ?' (((stepper***: I do not really like that this stepper is (confusing) called "Bonus-Unit")))
Gottlieb says / numbers the positions: 0,1,2,3, ... 12,13,14 see it in the JPG (?) - See (example) the hit / dropped #2-Drop-Target closes permanent its switch and so the #2-light lights permanent. And when the stepper is stepped through ALL positions and does a little halt on position-1: The J-Relay is made pulling-in "MUST give 1000 points".

I do not yet fully understand the schematics - confusing - the C-, I-, J- relays, hmm --- lets try to troubleshoot "not yet fully understanding the schematics".
Do a test "ONLY the #1-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points ?
Do a test "ONLY the #2-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points ?
Do a test "ONLY the #3-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points ?
etc.
With these tests You learn about "example the encircled brown, #2" the switches to give 1000 points.

The reward is 2000 points: Check the "encircled orange" switches.
The reward is 3000 points: Check the "encircled red" switches.
Maybe it is - but I doubt "Motor-Switch-1A is the problem" - again: Maybe it is. Greetings Rolf

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#13 2 years ago

Thanks for the advice, fair enough point I"ll keep the OP the same for now.

So on the knocker, yes I've checked the W relay and it's all looking good. It only happens when the second chute is set to 4-5 plays, so I'm thinking it's a timing issue with a switch opening or closing just a bit too early. That or there's a short SOMEWHERE.

On the outhole, looking at the schematics on mine that was the same conclusion I kept reaching but it seemed so silly. If at all possible could you post the section of orbit's schematics that have to do with the outhole so I can compare?

I did the tests as you said. With drop targets 1, 2, 3 down individually they score 1000 each time. Once I dropped all three, it only scored 2000. It seems like it's skipping every other section of the disk if there's targets down in succession. Same results from testing the 2000 and 3000 bonus.

#14 2 years ago

So I was doing some inspecting of the score motor switches and I was looking at the last switch on 1b (which is a bonus control switch) and I saw that it was also soldered to a switch on 1c. I don't remember this from when I took the score motor apart for cleaning but my memory isn't good and I do remember another switch on the motor doing this. Just want to make sure this is correct.

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#15 2 years ago

That looks like 2 different wire colors - White&Green and White&Orange. That can't be right. Are you sure they're soldered together?

#16 2 years ago

Positive. I tired to separate them and they're stuck together. I confirmed with my multi meter that they're both connected.

EDIT: Ok so it WAS soldered together. It was a cold joint though so I was able to break them apart. I turned it back on and it's not double steping anymore. It's still not counting the full bonus right, so my next step is gonna be investigating the G (8 ball) relay as well as make sure the wipers on the disk of the bonus unit are clean.

#17 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
have You seen this (?)https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/orbit-makes-the-ball-return-kicker-outhole-kicker-fire-two-times

I am not sure - have You solved the Bonus-Problem ? IF (if, if) "Yes" - do not read further.

To troubleshoot on "getting the correct amount of points when collecting bonus at the end of a ball": I would like to know "Does EVERY Drop-Down-Target - beeing the ONLY DROPPED target - do You then get the 1000 / 2000 / 3000 points.
So in post-12 I wanted to write:
Do a test "ONLY the #1-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #2-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #3-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #4-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #5-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #6-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #7-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #9-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #10-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #11-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #12-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #13-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #14-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
Do a test "ONLY the #15-Drop-Target is dropped - do You get the 1000 points / the 2000 / 3000 ?
The testing of the #8-Drop-Target might be difficult.

Then, when we KNOW "beeing dropped as the ony dropped target - and ALL works" - we then look at "combinations of several targets dropped' ". Greetings Rolf

#18 2 years ago

A common issue on Gottlieb "Scan" type bonus collect is the Run out switch on the Bonus unit. This is the leaf switch that rides on the outer edge of the bakelite cam. They sometimes don't stay "Closed" during the entire cycle of the bonus scanning. I have found this sometimes to be the condition of the center bearing that the shaft goes through of the cam. If it can wiggle around a lot, this will cause issues as it moves in a circle. Here is another discussion from a while back:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hot-shot-bonus-reset-issues

#19 2 years ago

For reference. At the top, you will see what silences the Knocker during coin drop (NC on W). The rest is the bonus collect scan step up circuit. "C" is Add bonus unit relay. "Q" is Ball Return control Relay. Second snip is the bonus unit step up circuit. When it detects a DT down, it should pause and score, then step to the next DT.

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#20 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
Your post-1, the 2.9 --- I guess we agree on: This is not a fault --- here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/orbit-makes-the-ball-return-kicker-outhole-kicker-fire-two-times on the bottom of the second JPG: I show a "switch I would like to have it in the Orbit".
Funny - look (here) at the JPG --- see the "encircled red" switch --- IN HOT SHOT Gottlieb added such an switch on the P-Add-Player-Unit-Relay.
Still a mystery to me is "WHY makes the pin to pull-in the O-Ball-Return-Relay a second time ?" We can live well "not knowing" --- IF (if, if) You are very interested in the mystery: On the bottom of the JPG I show information - 6A, 2B (, none of type "C") switches are mounted on the O-Relay. Type-A is "Normally-Open-Switch" - Type-B is "Normally-Closed-Switch" and Type-C is "three-bladed-Make-and-Brake-Switch". IF (if, if) You are very interested in the mystery: Look all over the schematics - looking for 6 "A", 2 "B" switches --- one or maybe several of these switches have to do with the "mystery" ...

I am not sure "where we are - problems" --- please write an "updated description of the actual problems". Greetings Rolf

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#21 2 years ago

Ok so update. I took the disk of the bonus unit off again and cleaned it/polished it again. I also adjusted the runoff switch on the bonus unit so it should be making good contact no mater if the cam is shaky or not. First couple times it didn't work right, then after about 3 or 4 resets it started working better. I stopped working on it when I had 2 working 15 bonus resets. I think I"m on the right track, maybe the screws holding the disk aren't tight enough and they aren't making a firm connection. I'm also going to go back to the J relay and make sure the switches associated with it locking on are firm and making a good connection. It seems 100% intermittent now, so it's just trail and error to figure out which parts are now.

The knocker is still an issue. I'm gonna check the score motor switch that releases the W relay and see if it's too close together. It might be activating just SLIGHTLY too early so it's release W just before the tick on A1 that's activating the 5th credit on the credit unit unit. About all I can think of, as if that switch was stuck closed the knocker would be activating 5 times.

Also apparently soldering lamp sockets is a pain. In an attempt to fix the intermittent lamp sockets, I"m doing what Clay recommends and soldering the wires from the loop directly to the lamp. The "tit" on the lamps don't want to take solder even after I clean then with my dremel. Guess it's finally time to stop being lazy and invest in flux eh?

#22 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
this post is only about "lamp sockets":

here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flaky-bulb-sockets-solder-question#post-1241868 is a topic - in post-26 I wrote what I usually try first.
Another topic https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-clean-old-4447-lamp-sockets - and in post-10 I show a JPG to the cleaning a Lamp Socket. Greetings Rolf

#23 2 years ago

The flux in normal rosin core solder is enough to do the job. The problem is you need more heat. Either a solder station turned all the way up, or a good old Weller Solder GUN. With enough heat, you can zip through the whole playfield in no time as long as you scratch off the old corrosion first. I just use a triangular needle file to get between the socket and the bracket. For the tip, just drag a flat needle file across it.

#24 2 years ago

Thanks for the advice on using a heat gun. Still a pain with how corroded the sockets are but I was able to fix the ones that were dim/intermittent.

I finally got the knocker silenced. As I thought the switch on score motor switch 2b was opening just SLIGHTLY too early and causing the W relay to lose power just before the 5th tick of the credit wheel. Setting it to close sooner fixed the timing issue. Amazing how milliseconds can make the difference.

The bonus unit seems to working good. At most right now it seems to miss one beat or so but as it`s used it seems to work more consistently. Still need to do those J adjustments but I think its good enough for now.

Mainly minor stuff remaining that I can figure out myself now. Still waiting on parts, but I`ll keep posted if issues remain. Thanks for the help so far everyone!

#25 2 years ago

Bumpin my thread because I spoke too soon. Right now it is 100% random if it counts a bonus or not when a drop is down. Sometime is only skips one, sometimes it skips 6. I just finished taking apart the bonus unit for the third time. Those rivets are about as shiny and clean as they've been in 40 years. I also cleaned the shoes on the unit.

From watching the relays C never loses power, it stays on for the whole bonus so I can rule out the bonus units runnout switch.

I've cleaned and adjusted the drop target switches about 3 times now as well. All the lights on the playfield are working so I can't see that being the issue.

At this point my only idea is something on either the J relay, I relay or a switch on the score motor. I've checked everything I can think of and I"m running out of ideas. I'm gonna go ahead and clean the jones plugs again (Both male and female) to completely rule those out but I really don't see them being the issue.

Any other input is appreciated, I'm getting kinda baffled here as to the 100% random nature of the problem. I cannot get a single consistent bonus countdown. Numbers it counted one reset it will skip over the next and vice versa.

#26 2 years ago

Watch the score motor during the process. Watch for blue sparks on contacts. That may lead you to the ones that might need attention.

Some spark no matter what. But often, excessive sparking leads you to a problem.

If the bonus unit is scanning properly, it could also be the switches at each DT if you can find some kind of consistency. Try one entire bank over and over and narrow down from there.

#27 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
I am not sure if I fully understand Your post-25 -
questions:
"... counts a bonus when a drop is down ..." --- You are talking about "played ball is lost and the 'collecting bonus happens' " ?
The Bonus-Unit is an continuous stepper - it can only step into one direction ?
Every time a ball is kicked over to the shooter alley - the Bonus-Unit is in position-14 ?
Every time a ball is lost and the "collecting bonus" happens: The Unit steps from position-14 forward to position-zero - then steps to pos-1, then 2,3,4 ... 14 ? (starting at pos-14 and ending reaching again pos-14 ?)
The lanes around the slingshots near the flippers score 500 points --- do You ALWAYS get 500 (five times 100) points when the ball rolls through such a lane ?
Greetings Rolf

#28 2 years ago

The process I'm doing to save myself time is dropping every target, collecting the 8 ball, then holding in the outhole switch to simulate the ball draining. (Playfield is in service position so I can watch everything easier) I'm doing that over and over to try and narrow things down to no avail.

I've been trying to establish a pattern of some kind but I cannot find anything consistent. Just today I tried, it counted all 15 balls the first time. I did it again, and it skipped over balls 14 and 15 I think. If I did it again I would prob get a different results again like I was last night.

Again I'd think if it was a DT switch it would also effect the playfield lamps. Last night I removed the fuses on the drop target resets so I could just keep running the bonus unit, and even without touching the DT switches the intermediate behavior still happened.

I did notice some sparking on 1a last night which I assumed was normal. Maybe I give it another look. I"m also going to take stack 1c off so I can properly inspect the switches on 1b. I also notice the occasional spark on J, which I cannot narrow down if it's the relay failing to lock on, or simply not actuating properly due to the bonus unit double stepping. I've cleaned/adjusted those switches so many times now. I"ll take a MM to it later just to be safe.

@rolf Yes I get 500 every time. That part is working properly. Far as I can tell the stepper is working as you described it. I'll attach some pictures of the bonus unit in it's rest position on the off chance something is off.

Because of how fast everything happens I'm having a hard time narrowing down exactly what's happening. I feel like the problem has to do either with J not locking in properly every now and then, or the bonus unit getting power when it shouldn't be. Maybe tonight I'll pull out my phone and record the actions of the J/I relays so more experienced users can see what's going on. (After I do some more score motor work)

Top view
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Bottom view
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#29 2 years ago

Hi KinkofKoopas
good - You always get the five times 100 points - means the Score-Motor-1A-Switch is NOT the problem. For to "narrow down on the problem" - eliminating possible faults in wires - I suggest: Establish the three permanent Jumper-Wires I show in the JPG --- when the fault still is happening: We must look at the switches. Greetings Rolf

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#30 2 years ago

My game is not up and running, but when I owned a Big Shot I had a similar issue that I could not fix. One thing I've noticed by watching videos is that when no targets are made, the bonus stepper quick steps/scans all 15 positions. I believe all 15 positions are scanned in one rotation of the score motor(A level?).

As soon and the stepper scans a lit position/target, the bonus stepping slows down allowing enough time for scoring. My point is that is that the bonus stepper scans and scores at different speeds which would indicate different levels of score motor switches.

In the video below, the game scans all 15 targets between the 22 and 24 seconds with no targets down. It takes about about 7 seconds, between 51 and 58 in the video, to score 3 targets.

Does the bonus stepper always run at the same speed, or does it slow when a lit target is scanned? If not, it might be worth checking everything in circuit to the bonus unit coil.

#31 2 years ago

So I went ahead and made a short video to show the random behavior of the bonus unit.

rolf_martin_062 The problem isn't that it isn't scoring points per say. If the bonus unit stops on a rivet it will score points every time. The problem is it's skipping some balls when it's "searching" for downed drop targets, even if said targets are down. Hopefully the video I posted will be able to illustrate what I"m trying to say. I know, I'm horrible at explaining problems :p

#32 2 years ago

I saw a Ninja video where a stepper was skipping steps and it was 1 of 2 issues.

Skipping up was the stepper mech had too long a reach. Adjusting the coil or arm stop limited it to 1 step.

Skipping down was the spring on the stepper having too high a tension.

#33 2 years ago

Id reclean all of the rivits and the snowshoes. Based on your video you are consistantly getting 15 steps..which is good.

I believe this was the first game to use the high speed bonus scan. It is less forgiving..

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

Id reclean all of the rivits and the snowshoes. Based on your video you are consistantly getting 15 steps..which is good.
I believe this was the first game to use the high speed bonus scan. It is less forgiving..

I've done that 3 times or so. At this point I think cleaning them again would cause more issues when it would solve.

From watching the video again it seems like j tries to actuate twice when it double steps. I'm gonna take the playfield out tomorrow so I can get at the bonus control switches easier, and clean/adjust/ohm out ever single switch on C, J and I. About all I can think to do at this point.

#35 2 years ago

I'll admit the rivets look clean. The wire on the snowshoe with the messy insulation...can you jumper that to make sure it is making good contact? I see that all 15 ball lights are lit, but it might be a good idea to still clean the switch contacts behind the drops.

#36 2 years ago

Drop target switches have been cleaned about 3 times as well. I'll take my meter to them later as well. Again I think cleaning would do more damage at this point.

The wire yes does look messy, but trust me it looks better then how it did. The original wire was missing so I had to cobble together a new jumper. I'll check with my meter anyhow but I'm fairly sure it's ok.

#37 2 years ago

The new black jumper wire looks fine. I think it is the original cotton jumper that looks suspicious us.

If you have some, Solder wick makes a great replacement.

#38 2 years ago

Alright so I went ahead and replaced the jumper wire, confirmed with my multimeter that they're making good contact. It worked good at first, then after about 2-3 countdowns it started acting up again.

I've noticed that if you go from cold start (turning it on after it's been sitting dormant for a while) it works fine the first time or 2. Then as I continue to run the bonus unit it starts skipping.

Considering this issue has evolved into a major issue, should I start a new thread to try and condense what's already been tried?

#39 2 years ago

Took the playfield out tonight. I cleaned and ohmed out every single switch on J,I,C, and the relevant score motor switches I hadn't ohmed out yet. I've ohmed out the snowshoes on the bonus unit, still no dice.

I'd say I"m completely out of ideas but I did find one thing. On the outmost switch on score motor 2b, (which controls the lock for I relay) I noticed that the contact on one of the leaf blades has burned off. I adjusted it, and I was able to ohm it out as good with only one contact. It's about the ONLY think I can think of that might be causing this intermittent behavior. I don't understand how, unless the missing pad is causing some weird timing issue. I actually found this burned contact a long time ago, but never did anything about it cause I got readings on my meter even with the switch being damaged.

I guess just to completely rule it out I should repair this. Noob question though, is there ANY easy way to replace the contact without have to pry the entire switch apart and replace the blade? Could I steal a contact off another leaf blade and solder it on?

#40 2 years ago

I'd certainly change that burnt switch contact. PBR sell them though it's simply easier to buy a new blade and be done with it. It could well be adding to your woes

As for fitting, your more likely to do more damage in the way you describe. Take some images of the stack as a reference, and carefully remove it, distmantle it fit the new blade and try the machine again. Good luck

#41 2 years ago

This machine is going to be the death of me.

So I went ahead and de-soldered the switch stack in question (after having it fall apart twice of me) and was (somehow) able to solder on a new contact. It's a little lopsided and it ain't pretty but I didn't have a blade on hand to try and outright replace it. My meter says it's getting proper continuity so we'll see if it lasts. I tired forcing the contact off to test the solder and it seemed firm.

However if my struggle I broke off the plastic spacer. Now normally at this point I'd be getting ahold of my normal pinball guys, however 1: I need to be done this machine soonish as someone else needs to use the room that I"m using and 2: I still need to pay off my last order to PBR which might be a while. So in an attempt to salvage this I mixed up some expoy and tried to glue the spacer back on. While I had it mixed I put a little on the underside of the new contact to try and re-enforce it cause I REALLY don't trust my solder job.

This switch wins the award of the most cobbled together switch ever, but assuming the expoy holds this should work for at least a while until I can come back and replace everything proper. If anyone has just so happens to have a switch of this style I'd be happy to buy it lol.

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#42 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
the title of the topic matches with "troubleshooting posts" - I would not start a new topic.
The Switch "Score-Motor-2B" is part of the "Bonus collecting sequence" so You may be on the problem.

The following is some "loud thinking" - I know the "Simple Bonus Ladder system / feature" (many pins have) - I know the "Target Alpha system" --- the Hot Shot System" is new to me - Yes, speeding through the positions till a position "dropped target" is found - then giving points - then maybe again speeding and so on. Very complicated (means: I do not yet fully understand the schematics). The video in post-30 shows and let us hear this Hot Shot type of Bonus handling.
In the video in post-31 I can see "random faulty stepping at high speed" --- You test with ALL drops dropped - it never should step at high speed. Is the fault "TRUE" random ? Gottlieb Score-Motors are built "120 degrees symmetrical" / "a third revolution symmetrical". Your Score-Motor has three "Home-Positions" - in an fully running pin these three steppings within a turn of 120 degrees (a Gottlieb-Turn) are identical --- but maybe the stuff actuating on Your Score-Motor has differences. So when You do a test and the same test again - and again - and again: You should have the Score-Motor ALWAYS in the SAME "Home-Position". So You use a dash / drop of paint and mark one of the three existing Home-Positions --- before You simulate "ball is lost - collect the bonus": You should bring the Score-Motor into the "paint-marked Home-Position" - then do the test --- question: Does the fault (high speed stepping) still happens random ?
Look at the JPG - I draw "brown and rosa/pink": Suggestions to mount an doorbell-pushbutton switch so You can make the Score-Motor to do a turn (of 120 degrees) - maybe another turn (of 120 degrees) - ALWAYS do the testing on the Bonus with the "paint-marked Home-Position".
You do not have to mount such doorbell-pushbutton stuff - here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1247&picno=38219 I see: The lanes around the Slingshots give 500 points - five times hundred points with the help of a Score-Motor-turn of 120 degrees - therefore You may want to make "maybe no points - 500 points - two times 500 points" to have Your Score-Motor in the "paint-marked Home-Position" (?) - Then You test the Bonus-stuff.

To understand the functionality and then troubleshooting: I would like to see "Score-Motor turning" and the Relays actuating and the Bonus-Unit stepping - ALL THIS in the same video in one screen. This is not possible - but with SteveFury 's Testlights You can show it --- a Test-Light is hooked on a coil --- long wires on the Test-Light and You can take the Test-Light near the Score-Motor. In the JPG I draw such Test-Lights - really needed are "I- and J- and Add-Bonus-Unit-Coil-Lights".

SteveFury-Test-Light: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1247&picno=38219 --- the "Coil on J-Relay" runs on 6VAC - there the Test-Light is an simple pinball-light-bulb --- while the other Test-Lights use two 12Volt car-electrics bulbs - mounted one behind the other. Greetings Rolf

0Hot-Shot-Work-07 (resized).jpg

#43 2 years ago

Thanks for this link. I'm saving it.

Bruce

#44 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

Thanks for this link. I'm saving it.
Bruce

I'd love to see a video of this method. I've been looking but I haven't found one yet

#45 2 years ago

Interesting idea with the lights. I REALLY need to stop being lazy and buy some alligator clips anyhow so this might be a good excuse to.

I still need to re-install my cobbled together switch, so once that's done I"ll report back.

I just want to say for the record, when I got this machine I was excited because I said "This is gonna be a quick project". One ruined playfield, two rebuilt droptargets and dozens of hair pulling troubleshooting hours later.......

#46 2 years ago
Quoted from KingofKoopas:

I REALLY need to stop being lazy and buy some alligator clips

Yes

#47 2 years ago

Did you solder that contact on the front side? Why not solder it where the peg sticks through the back? I've done it a few times and haven't had one cone off again.

Also trying to ohm everything out doesn't usually end up solving much. You just need to find one problem and work on that at one time. Most circuits only have a few switches on them so if you do one problem at a time it's not a huge undertaking. Plus when you solve one problem another usually shows up so trying to tackle it all at once will have you running in circles.

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from Briehl:

Also trying to ohm everything out doesn't usually end up solving much. You just need to find one problem and work on that at one time. Most circuits only have a few switches on them so if you do one problem at a time it's not a huge undertaking. Plus when you solve one problem another usually shows up so trying to tackle it all at once will have you running in circles.

Yes!

#49 2 years ago
Quoted from Briehl:

Did you solder that contact on the front side? Why not solder it where the peg sticks through the back? I've done it a few times and haven't had one cone off again.
Also trying to ohm everything out doesn't usually end up solving much. You just need to find one problem and work on that at one time. Most circuits only have a few switches on them so if you do one problem at a time it's not a huge undertaking. Plus when you solve one problem another usually shows up so trying to tackle it all at once will have you running in circles.

I didn't have a new contact on had so I had to dremel one out of an old switch. I prob could have done it from the other side but it was 3 in the morning, I was tired. Also fair point on ohming.

Ok so everything is back in place and I've been testing/troubleshooting for about 3 hours now. I've lost the 500 point relay, but I'm not concerned. The D (500 point) relay lockin was on the same switch stack I had to replace the contact (2b) on so I probs just borked the connection.

So I am getting different behavior now. The timing on everything seems much faster now, and I'd say about 8-9 times out of 10 it's counting a full bonus. (All drop targets downs, 8 ball collected). I'll quickly go over everything I did to get to this point :

1: Adjusted switches on 3c, 2c, and 1c that have to do with the bonus.
2: Moved every drop target switch closer together to try and get a more firm connect. (I'll jump these switches once I get some alligator clips to completely rule them out)
3: Took apart the bonus unit AGAIN. I tinned/sanded the snowshoes on the bonus unit just in case all my cleaning ended up screwing something up. I also applied a SMALL amount of super lube so everything glides a little better.
4: Cleaned the connection on the 8 ball relay so it's making proper contact.

So it's counting down a full bonus most of the time, good! So new problem now.

If I drop random targets, the random counting behavior starts up again. It seems SOMEWHAT more reliable if I drop every other target, but if I sink random targets it will sometimes count them properly, sometimes not.

However watching the I relay gave me a clue. If I sink every target, collect the 8 ball and then start the bonus, it counts down properly, but the I relay seems to vibrate instead of cleanly pulling in after J pulls in.

Also, if it skips a ball, instead of just skipping over completely like it was it will (usually) pause for about half a sec and then continue. This is leading me to think the I relay is defiantly the new suspect. I need a break for now, but I"ll go back to it tomorrow. I found my alligator clips FINALLY so I just need a spool of wire to lengthen them, as well as the bulbs. I'll report back once I have the setup as rolf describes it or if I find any other revelations.

#50 2 years ago

So according to recent surveys 9/10 pinsiders agree that soldering the correct wire to the right switch helps things out.

I was checking my wiring again and I noticed I SOMEHOW put 2 wires in the wrong tabs. This was why the 500 point relay was dead, and the odd bonus behavior.

I moved them over and I am noticing an increase in reliability. At the most it only skips one ball, but it seems to count the bonus right about 4/5 times. I"m still going to create rofl's setup but I think replacing that burned out contact very much made everything work better. I'm noticing the bonus pausing much more though, not sure if it's intended but I still suspect a switch somewhere still isn't quite correct. Update tomorrow when I get my supplies.

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