(Topic ID: 203130)

The Many Problems with my Gottlieb Hot Shot


By KingofKoopas

2 years ago



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  • 74 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by pinballbrian
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 74 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas +
this post is about my understanding parts and my NOT-understanding other parts of the collecting bonus feature. I hope You agree with my "understandings" and I also hope that You can help on my "not yet fully understanding parts of the feature".

On the lower part of the JPG I see "I-Bonus-Score-Relay actuated" makes the L-1000-Points-Relay to give 1000 or 2000 or 3000 points to the Score-Drums. Giving points only can be done in the FIRST (and 2nd and 3rd) closing of SCM-1A (Score-Motor-Switch-1A, within a turn of 120 degrees: The switch is closed 5 times).
The marked "rosa / pink" stuff shows: The "rushing through the Bonus-Positions to find a position with a dropped target" is done fast - on every closing of SCM-1A and "J-Relay not actuated" and I-Relay not actuated". The detection of "position WITH dropped target" can happen on ANY closing of SCM-1A --- so sometimes the feature must pause so the Motor can turn - motor comes to end of turn and with / in the next turn: The giving points (L-Relay) then can be done on 1st (2nd 3rd) closing of SCM-1A.
On top of the JPG - my big black question mark: I believe this switch is to keep the C-Relay STAY pulling --- the rivets on the bonus-unit hop from one position to the next position --- and "my question mark switch" makes the relay stay pulling for the short period of time "hop-has-no-connection" (?).
"Marked light-blue" - The I-Relay is made pulling very late in a turn of 120 degrees - the SCM-2B closing (and the J-Relay pulling) activates the I-Relay (at the very end of a turn) - then the next turn the I-Relay can make the L-Relay to give the points to the Score-Drums (closing 1st and 2nd and 3rd SCM-1A) - the 4th closing of SCM-1A has nothing to do with the I-Relay but then just after: The actuating of (dark-blue) SCM-3C lets the I-Relay drop-out.
The mentioned "4th closing of SCM-1A" is at the same time with "closing of SCM-1B" - the Bonus-Unit is stepped forward one step - to eventually get to the very next position with a dropped target to start the stuff (start by actuating SCM-2B) again.
"Marked lemon-green": The J-Bonus-Score-CONTROL-Relay is allowed to pull-in ONLY / AFTER the I-Relay has finished its duty - THEN the J-Relay can pull-in.

"My lemon-green question mark": I believe to understand that the switch is needed to finally make the J-Relay quit pulling --- but I am confused about it and I also
am confused about parallel / semi-parallel off-set / sequence-succession on actuating / stepping J-Relay / I-Relay / Bonus-step-coil in combintion with "rushing through the positions (Bonus-Unit). Thats why I suggested (post-42) "Test-Lights for to show actuating stuff" visible with Score-Motor turning at the same time --- to see the pattern on "mostly working feature" - realizing what causes the fault.
Greetings Rolf

0Hot-Shot-Work-08 (resized).jpg

#52 2 years ago

Ok setup is done! So I can confirm it works and I did make a video, however be warned it's not very good quality right now.

I have to leave for work in about an hour as of typing this, and after today I won't have time to work on the machine until at least sunday-monday. So until then I wanted at least post SOMETHING so that you guys can try to get a handle on this and maybe notice something I'm missing. As you've prob noticed the odd behavior is back full swing today so yay......

#53 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
it is a hobby - You work on the pin when You have time and lust.
Thanks for the Video in post-52. The light made by the constantly pulling C-Relay is very shiny - kind of "covering" the other lights. Nice - I see the C-Relay-light beeing lit all the time - never a (slight) flicker --- this confirms my assumption of "C-Relay must and does constantly pull".
I made an "pinside-search" with the words ... Hot Shot ...
(Smile) Hot Shot Bonus-Stuff has been a mystery to me for a long time, well: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gtb-hot-shot-3-questions-understanding#post-3091865 IMPORTANT is CactusJack 's (post-3) "The run out switch rides along the outside bakelite cam of the bonus stepper where there is a valley to keep it moving to the 15th step 2 cycles per rotation". To his writing: In the schematics the stepper is shown with positions Zero,1,2,3 ... 12,13,14 --- the drop-targets are numbered 1,2,3 ... 13,14,15. Not clear to me is his "2 cycles".
Anyway - this "rides along the outside bakelite ..." suits my imagination much better then (my faulty thought in the last couple of days: "Plunger on the unit closes (my black question mark) switch".
KingofKoopas - please have a short look at the bonus unit --- do You see the switch "rides along the outside bakelite" ? Please write about --- as the C-Relay works properly (I am 99.9999% sure of) - for further testing: Please take away the "light on the C-Relay-Coil" so we can better see the other lights.
To help us on the "random ?" question of the fault happening: I'd love to have one of the HOME-Positions of the Score-Motor have an paint-mark --- and every new test is made with "starting the test having the motor in "paint-mark-HOME-Position" as this helps on answering the question "is the fault truely random ?".
I made an "pinside-search" with the words ... Hot Shot ... here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hot-shot-bonus-reset-issues#post-3071486 a nice tip - the last sentence in the post --- in post-18 vreference reports "have found the fault - a maladjusted switch on the J-Relay".
I made an "pinside-search" with the words ... Hot Shot ... here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-hot-shot-1973-bonus-count-incorrect#post-1820391 a topic all about --- in post-5 DirtFlipper gives an explanation --- hmm it is not detailled enough for "our" problem and I am not sure about the last sentence (For example, ...) - BUT: was144 reports in post-6 the problem as fixed --- "adjusting motor-1B to a shorter make-time" --- hm, surprising.
I hope for luck --- in post-8 jasonsmith wrote (a good post) almost at the end: "I relaxed the tensions on the switch leafs on J-Relay" --- KingofKoopas: I hope for luck - You do the same - and hopefully the problem in Your pin dissapears.

Some other place in pinside I read: "Bonus feature in Hot Shot is one of the trickiest Gottlieb features".

To the JPG here - and my problems of understanding.
What I do understand: Lets let the pin "rush" through the positions - oops, a "dropped-target position is reached" - J-Relay pulls-in and stops the "rushing" due to opening its switch --- the motor turns further - "my burgundy-red G" (closing of motor-2B and switch closed by the pulling J-Relay) makes the I-Relay pull-in and a new turn of the motor starts --- nice the "burgundy-red A,B,C" happens (points are given) -I also am happy as the "burgundy-red D" makes the Bonus-Unit do a step reaching an "non-droppet-target-position or maybe an dropped-target-position" (motor-1B makes the bonus-unit step because the I-Relay still is pulling). Then comes the "burgundy-red E" - the I-Relay is made quit pulling. The "burgundy-red F" does not make the bonus-unit to step - as the J-Relay is still pulling --- the pulling J-Relay quits pulling when again Home-Position is reached - motor-1C thrown.
And now comes my problem of understanding: "burgundy-red G" takes place - J-Relay is still pulling AND SO the I-Relay is made pulling --- but the position of the bonus-unit as the result of "stepping burgundy-red G" may be an non-dropped-target-position ...
This problem of understanding - I got not really a relief from the pain of me not understanding by the fact "The fault in Your pin is NOT ENOUGH Points to the Score-Drums" - my problem of understanding would cause "sometimes too MANY points given".

My brooding on my problem made me think of "sneaking in an EOS-Switch on the Bonus-Unit-Step-Coil-Plunger - opening when the Bonus-Unit fires - opening the "Self-Hold-Circuitry (see my burgundy-red lines)" on the J-Relay OR simplified: What for is this wiring - what happens when You take the wiring away ? Of course: Do NOT take this burgundy-red wiring out of Your pin - but I'd be interested in the behaviour of Your pin when You sneak-in a stripe of paper in-between the switchblades on J-Relay-switch - to permanent keep the switch open. This switch is easy to locate:
From one side of the Coil on J-Relay runs a short wire to "Switch mounted on the relay" - THIS is the switch - want to try (?) "sneaking-in a stripe of paper" and write about the behaviour of Your pin.

Further testing: Please take out of the view of the camera the "C-Relay-Coil-Test-Light" --- please ONLY do tests with "everything dropped" --- please paint-mark one of motors HOME-Positions - do all the tests starting with "motor is in paint-marked Home-Position" (((we still do not know if the "random happening" is caused by differences in the three 120 degrees mirrowed motor))) - please make an new video.

Do You happen to have an box with spare parts --- an complete, working 24VAC-Gottlieb-Relay ? (((We may try a "little cheating on the pin"))). Greetings Rolf

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#54 2 years ago

Interesting thoughts. I'm gonna be stepping away from the machine for a few days to take a break and focus on work, but I"ll do what you say after I get back.

As for you question, yes there's a small switch on the underside of the unit. The disk on the bonus unit has 2 small notchs taken out of it, so that when it steps away from it's home position the disk activates the switch. When it arrives back into it's home position, the activator on the switch falls into the second notch and releases the switch.

At this point I do highly suspect some weird timing issue on the score motor. Working on this an studying the motor sequence chart I've realized just how "tight" the timing on everything is. This is one time I almost wish the score motor would run slower so I can actually keep up with what's going on lol.

I had a thought, I wonder cause this machine was stored in a damp climate before I got it, if the metal blade that activates the switches on 1b (or maybe some other switches) is bent out of shape a bit, causing it to activate later then it should. Well another thing to possibly look into.

And no, I unfortunately don't have spare parts. I keep everything I remove from my machines, but if I"m removing something it's usually because it's trashed beyond use. (Broken plastics, melted coils ect)

#55 2 years ago
Quoted from KingofKoopas:

I almost wish the score motor would run slower so I can actually keep up with what's going on lol.

I've never had to do this but if there's no motor disconnect plug you could unsolder one of its wires and rotate it by hand.

#56 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas, Howard +
the motor running slower or to be turned by hand: The schematics of Hot Shot shows no "Service Jack" to unplug to completely / permanent cut the connection to the Motor. I do not like to turn the motor by hand --- I would like to have a steady turning - but much slower - kind of "stutter / stammer / splutter (words from a dictionnary)" - steady turning but much slower --- I was thinking of making me a help --- see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gl%C3%BCcksrad_(Spielshow)#/media/File:Wheel_of_Fortune_Navy.jpg and see the JPG -
a lid / a "stop-blade" is rhythmically moved (toc, toc, toc, toc, toc ...) - I mount an switch to close (and open again) - so I can fire short pulses to the Score-Motor to turn - stuttering but overall: steady, slower.
Instead of a wheel turning (see the above) I thought of a cascade of relays: Relay-A is activated - it moves its switches (this takes little time as the switches are adjusted "late closing") - a switch on the Relay-A closes and activates Relay-B ... Relay-C -D -E -F -G -H -I -J -K -L --- the Relay-L activates the Score-Motor --- Relay-L also cuts the circuitry on the Relay-A etc --- the progression / cascade is done again and again and again.
Instead of --- simple version: A friend rhythmically press and let go a pushbutton - this is the stuttering. Greetings Rolf

0Gluecksrad (resized).jpg

#57 2 years ago

Rolf,

When I said 2 cycles per rotation, what l meant was that the stepper is symmetrical. The 15 steps are duplicated. One bonus collect cycle uses one half the unit. The next collect process uses the other half.

Your purple highlighted circuit is the hold circuit for J. At the start of a score motor cycle, if a DT is detected, the J relay is pulled in. Then, the hold circuit insures the J relay stays in as the stepper is advanced to the next rivet position.

#58 2 years ago

Ok so while I was at work I was looking over rolf's post and I think and I THINK I understand how the bonus works now. I"m still going to refrain from working on the machine, but I want to confirm that I have the right idea on how the bonus actually works. Cause if I'm understanding this right I have some ideas as to what to try next.
I'm going to write this as if every drop target it down for simplicity sakes. Other conditions would create additional steps.

1: The ball drains, which opens a path to the C relay. The relay pulls in, starts the score motor spinning and opens a path to J, "I" and the bonus coil.
2: With the bonus unit in it's home position and drop target 1 down, the J relay pulls in, which closes the path to the bonus advance.
3:With J pulled in, "I" locks in through score motor switch 2b at the end of the 120 degree cycle.
4:The score motor reaches it's home position, and the make/break switch on 1c changes states, releasing the J relay. However now "I" is locked in, so the make/break switch on "I" stops the bonus unit from advancing.
5: With "I" locked in, the score motor sends a tick to the L relay through motor switches 1a and 1d scoring 1000 points.
6: At about the 80 degree point 1b activates, which opens a path to the bonus advance coil through the make/break on "I".
7: IMMEDIATELY after the bonus unit advances, the normally closed switch on 3c changes states, which releases the "I" relay.
8: With the "I" relay off, the bonus unit advanced and the next down drop detected, J is free to pull in again, which stops the last tick of 1a from advancing the bonus unit further.
9: With J now pulled in and locked on through 1c and it's own contact, the "I' relay is free to pull in at 2b and the cycle starts over again at step 4.

From what I can gather this is generally how the bonus should count down if every drop is down. It repeats 14 times for every target before arrive back at it's home position.

And rolf, if my understanding of this is right the reason there's a lockon to the J relay is because J needs to be activated for I to pull in. However once "I" tires to actuate, without the 1c lockin the normally closed switch on "I" would open and cut power to the J relay. So in essence the 2 would cancel each other out, I think.

Now assuming how I described the bonus is right I watched my video and and noticed that when I had every target down and (most of the time) when it double stepped, it was followed almost immediately by the L relay ticking, meaning it scored points. I thought the double ticking might have been the J relay not getting power.

However if J doesn't get power, then "I" wouldn't get power either. 1b ticks the bonus unit once, then after that if J didn't receive power the last tick of 1a would advance the unit. At that point, it's too late for J to pull in so it can give power to "I". If it did truly skip over a ball because a connection to J couldn't be made, then the bonus counting should pause, as the score motor cycles around again to give power to "I" as in step 3.

This is mostly just my after work ramblings, but I wanted to get this down before I completely forgot lol.

#59 2 years ago

Hi CactusJack
thanks for the clarification "2 cycles". I agree with You on "purple highlighted circuit is the Hold-circuit for the J-Relay".
Hi KingofKoopas
You have found the fault in "my thinking" - it is Your (post-58) "( 3: ) ... THE 4: AFTER the SCM-2B made the I-Relay to pull-in: THE SCORE-MOTOR REACHES HOME POSITION AND THE J-RELAY DROPS OUT". My faulty thinking had the I-Relay AND THE J-Relay steady pulling when the points are given --- and then I run into my problems "J-Relay is still pulling ..." (((and so I tried to find an work-around to make the J-Relay quit pulling - thanks to You: The J-Relay is "since long" no-more pulling - I do not have to make it quit pulling - IT HAS QUIT PULLING))).
Greetings Rolf

#60 2 years ago

Ok so back to work on the machine!

So armed with my new knowledge of how the bonus works I did a few more things:

1: Release the pressure on the normally closed switches on J, so they open earlier and cit power to the bonus unit sooner.
2: Moved the normally closed switches on "I" closer so the J relay can pull in sooner after "I" loses power.
3: Moved the end switch of 1b closer together so it activates sooner
4: Adjusted the contacts of 1a so they open later, giving J and I more time to work. (probs gonna undo this change)
5: Moved end switch 2b closer together so "I" can pull in sooner
6: Adjusted normally open switch on C to completely rule out intermittent contact to J.

Still no dice, double stepping is still happening. At this point I have 2 theories:

1: The last tick of 1a is somehow getting power to the bonus unit when it shouldn't due to some mis-adjusted switch
2: There's some sort of intermittent short going on either on the score motor, or a relevant switch somewhere.

I just wanna note I noticed that switch 1b that has to do with the bonus unit is also connected to the second switch on 1a. I can only see one wire going to it, so I ASSUME it's intentional. The wire appears to be orange blue.

#61 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
from CactusJack we learned: The Bonus-Unit is made of two halves - one time collecting bonus uses the first half of the Bonus-Unit --- the next time collecting bonus uses the second half of the unit. The Score-Motor has three Home-Positions - to do a test again and again and again: You should always use the same "half of the Bonus-Unit" of the new test and also have the motor in the same Home-Position (paint mark).

I refer to the JPG in post-42 - I am very interested in the "Test-Light on I-Relay" and on "J-Relay" and on "Add-Bonus-Unit" --- look in post-53 in the JPG the "encircled rosa/pink Add Bonus Unit" and to the right of it: The Make-and-Brake-Switch on the I-Relay - so on every test: The "Test-Light on Add Bonus Unit" IS NOT ALLOWED to light up within the time the "Test-Light on I-Relay is shining" --- IF (if, if) it faulty lights up: This Make-and-Brake-Switch is faulty. Greetings Rolf

#62 2 years ago

Preliminary results seem poor thus far. Even after using the same home position on the motor, and even with using the same bonus home position there still seemed to be no rhyme or reason to the skipping.

I'll post an updated video of the bulbs later on today and go from there. Right now I'm just chasing ghosts lol.

#63 2 years ago

Ok second take is done. (hopefully)

I did what you said and marked a home position. I then decided to do 4 takes at each home position so you could see the 2 home positions of the bonus unit twice per score motor home position. As you noticed my L relay light burned out at the beginning, but I don't think it's really relevant at this point and I was too lazy to make a new jumper lol.

Take your best shot, I"m taking a break till tomorrow.

#64 2 years ago

Hi KingofKoopas
thanks for the video. A fault always happening is not fun --- a fault that looks as "random / happens sometimes" is worse. So my suggestion "paint-marked Home-Position of the Score-Motor - always start a test with this Home-Position" - and my suggestion "Bonus-Unit has two halves they should be identical - always start a test with the same half" --- on both: I do not know if there are differences in the faulty collecting bonus - my suggestions were hoping to eliminate the factor "random" as far as possible - finding a pattern.
(((I once had a "seldom / random" fault on an Extraball-feature - sometimes given - sometimes not given --- after hours of searching and testing I have found: One of the wires to the coil had broken-off the solder-lug - but stayed in place (connection) --- a bit of shaking / vibration: Broken-off end moved a bit to the side (no connection) - vibration again (connection) and on and on --- BUT the fault in Your pin is "too often")))

You have found "how it works in a fully running pin" - Your description in post-58 - there is nothing I can add to the theory. I believe You have had a good look at every switch in the wirings to the relays / Unit - what can I add to "checking switches, checking wires" ?
I feel uncomfortable to suggest stuff to do - make You "do work / spend hours".

(feeling uncomfortable-A) - the last sentence in post-56 - a friend helps and slows down the fast turning of the Score-Motor (?)
(feeling uncomfortable-B) - mounting a Test-Light on the "coil on L-1000-point-relay" - and take this new light also in sight of the camera - testing on the last ball when the pin should give THREE times bonus and so we could see: does the faulty stepping on Ball-Count-Unit happens on pulses of Motor-1A "first - second - third (the same time as the three times thousand points are given)" --- or faulty stepping on the last two "fourth - fifth" closing of motor-1A (?)
(feeling uncomfortable-C) - taking the Test-Lights to the Score-Motor so we can see the motor turn and also see the lights ?
(feeling very uncomfortable-D) - unsoldering wire-brown-mingled-with-red - away from the motor - for tests SLOWLY turn the motor manually --- I have never done this and I feel very uncomfortable about doing it.
(feeling very uncomfortable-E) - checking all the switches again.

Maybe I see something when You do "uncomfortable-B together with uncomfortable-C" - one more video. Greetings Rolf

#65 2 years ago

Darn thought I kicked the problem.

I started her up today after some adjusting last night and I had 2 working bonus countdowns (didn't skip once). I then did some other testing and once again, it works for a bit then starts skipping again. GAAAAH

Also for your second point, I did do some testing with 3000 points, the faulty stepping is happening on the 4th or 5th tick of 1a. I don't have lights set up but I know the "rhythm" of how the switches get activated, so I can tell it's stepping on the forth tick of 1a (normal) or the 5th tick of 1a (not normal).

I can still set up the test lights, but I spent an hour fighting to bullet proof lamp sockets (seriously I HATE fixing lamp sockets) so I need a break.

Edit: I think I can say it's the last tick of 1a with some confidence. I'm noticing that sometimes on the double step I can 2 blue sparks instead of 1 from the 1a cam.

#66 2 years ago

GAHHH I MIGHT BE GETTING SOMEWHERE.

So while doing my normal switch adjustment, I made it so the J relay switch that goes to the add bonus unit was so loosely making contact ANY movement of J would cut power to the bonus unit.

If I did that, I noticed that the bonus unit would sometimes get stuck trying to actuate. I look down at J and noticed it's SLIGHTLY pulled in, but not enough to do anything. So I assumed there might be something wrong with the lock relay so i did some adjustment, to no avail.

Then while working the relay I noticed, man this relay seems to be under a lot of spring pressure. Which I found weird considering that J is a low power relay as is.

Then something I've said myself about 20 times I finally tried, I replaced the spring with a new, but much weaker drop target spring. It was still strong enough to move the relay back into position.

I tried machine again, I counted 4 successful bonus. 2 were all targets down. 1 was entire left bank, one was completely random.

For reference THIS is what the spring looked like:
20171213_155333 (resized).jpg

I'm stepping away till tomorrow, I'll put the playfield down and see if we get anything in an actual game. If this was all it was I'm going to be kicking myself so hard for not trying this 3 weeks ago when I first had the thought.

#67 2 years ago

Someone may have adjusted the blades in such a way that the relay would not open completely. Therefore, their fix for their error may have been a heavier spring.

How does that spring compare to other relays?

#68 2 years ago

It seems to be the shame kind as on the other relays. I look off U's spring for reference.

20171213_204036 (resized).jpg

It just looks bent out of shape.

#69 2 years ago

Played a full game in the workshop, no issues. Game is set up, played it for 3 games, counted the bonus down properly every time. 3 weeks of troubleshooting and it was just a faulty spring.

She may be battled scared, have a messed up playfield and un-even inserts, but you know what? She's mine. Thanks for all the help, I'll update this thread again if I come across any other issues.
20171214_170627 (resized).jpg

#70 2 years ago

These battle scarred not so perfect pins grow on you after a while.

2 months later
#71 2 years ago

Thanks for post rolf and kingofkoopas.late to this topic but very interesting.i also have hot shot I'm going thru now.have switches on c.i.and j relays that are burnt.even wires were burnt about 2 inches back from lugs.going to replace wires and switches with new ones.question.? Are you still having issues or have you solved problem.i havnt powered on machine yet. Looking at switches here I'm really intimidated.please respond .also could i get closeup of wires on each relay so i know they are not crossed.yes I have schematics.but it says some wires may not be colored correctly.thank you.

#72 2 years ago

15190882588761407486318 (resized).jpg

#73 2 years ago

Hi pinballbrian
I do not own an "Hot Shot" - I am not an pinside-official. By now the topic has more than 70 posts --- think of "some time in the future a fellow pinsider looks for stuff helping him on his Hot Shot" --- I prefer topics with an good title - and the topic +/- stays on one problem - problem then is solved (hopefully) in some 10 to 20 posts. SUCH topics are a help for fellow pinsiders.
In short: Please start Your own topic - think of "NEW topic" is much more attractive (than an warmed-up old one). Greetings Rolf

#74 2 years ago

Thank you rolf.good to hear from you my friend.you helped me with my aladdins castle a while back.will start new topic.hope I can call on you if I need your help.wires were burnt and I have short in lighting circuit.was first wanting to see if wires were connected correct.again thanks.

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