From an economic standpoint, it doesn't make much sense yet in Michigan. Right off the top, you'll have to pay an extra $140 ev penalty on top of your regular registration based on MSRP every year. That's the equivalent of a lot of gas right there. Secondly, public charging is more expensive than the equivalent amount of energy in gas right now, as there's no competition. And at home, unless you're off the grid, you're beholden to your public utility company that has a monopoly and then asks the state to raise the price whenever they want and are usually granted their wish.

Here's an article from Detroit's "liberal" paper summarizing a study regarding cost to drive an ev vs. ice. It's still more expensive to drive an ev no matter how you slice it. Funny enough, I actually leased a Nissan Leaf in 2013 before these taxes were implemented and with a free charging station about a mile from my house at a AAA Insurance office. It served my needs commuting around town. The range was only 90 miles on a good day, but I enjoyed it for the two years that I had it.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/21/electric-vehicle-charging-cost-vs-gas/6110815001/

The tradeoff for no car is 3K a month rent for 500 square feet of living space. I've enjoyed all the fun and excitement that my several trips to NYC have given me. But after a week, I'm clamoring to head back to the midwest, with the space (and the opportunities to drive my car).

Sorry. If you're interested:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/21/electric-vehicle-charging-cost-vs-gas/6110815001/

Unfortunately, it's more than your fair share. That's what's ridiculous. It's at least $140 on top of registration fees on the MSRP of said electric vehicle. Federal and State gas taxes about to 18.56% in Michigan. At $3.35/ gallon, it would take 225 gallons of to spend $140 in taxes. For an ICE car that averages 30 MPG, that's 6,750 miles of driving. And then you also have to actually pay to "fuel" your car with electric power. Electricity is taxed too. If you want people to drive these things, they shouldn't be disincentivized to do so. I understand that gas taxes are used to pay for roads. However, if you have to charge ev owners an arbitrary amount to supposedly accommodate for that, then your road funding system needs to be updated. The sweet spot in Michigan is a car like the Prius or the Ioniq, which get upwards of 55-60 MPG in mixed use, but avoids the ev penalty altogether and of course uses relatively little gas.

Drive in a straight line down Canton Center Rd from Warren to Ford, and you won’t make it, 2 bent rims, at least.

I leased a Nissan Leaf in 2013. The car only had 90 miles of range (on a good day). However, the AAA office within a mile of my house had a free Level 2 charging station. I would take my car up there and run home, then run back to pick it up about 4 hours later. It was a great ritual. I got some exercise in and my car charged for free. We had a minivan at home too for longer trips, but that Leaf was great for tooling around town or running the kids around. In addition, the state of Michigan hadn't yet added the EV penalty onto vehicle registrations. Now, they tack $140 (I believe) on top of the regular registration, which is based on MSRP. This is to make up for the lack of gas tax from EV owners. A modest fee would be fair, but I've seen studies that show that this fee is more than many ICE drivers pay in gas taxes each year. And now, the free charging station is gone. Those were a great, 3 cheap years of car ownership.

The reliability argument of EV's is a bit overstated. Worse yet, if you do happen to have a problem, you're screwed. They're not just fixing it in a day and getting you back on the road. Some EV's are have been very problematic, like the Ford Mach-E.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/14/ford-issues-stop-sale-of-mustang-mach-es-due-to-potential-safety-defect.html

When you say that EV's have a life >200K, are you talking with or without expensive battery replacement or repair?

They should tack another 9 weeks into your warranty after all that. Did they at least give you a loaner?

I'm wondering what peoples' opinions are on the 2023 Toyota Prius. Two knocks on the Prius have always been looks and performance. Looks are subjective of course, but this seems like a good-looking car. Performance has been amped up to 194 HP, while still getting 56 MPG in mixed driving. Not going to blow anybody's doors off, but certainly adequate for every day driving. It's a Toyota and has a long-established nameplate, so you have to assume that build quality and resale will be good. It seems like an excellent bridge on the long road to full practical electrification for a majority of drivers. Plus, at least in my state, you get to dodge the EV tax and have a car that literally sips gas. Curious as to what others think. It looks like a winner to me.

Prius 23 (resized).jpg

Was checking it out on Raiti's rides on YouTube and the interior seems vastly improved as well.

That’s the one (and only) thing I liked about being a Ford owner. I had a Fusion hybrid that needed service often. There are so many dealers around that getting both an appointment and a loaner were never a big problem. Thank goodness I only owned that car while it was under warranty.

No, but if you drive through St. Louis and ask for directions, you're liable to have your 4 hubcaps stolen and have “honky lips” spray painted onto your green pea metallic Wagon Queen Family Truckster.

More like "I hate HYBRID water heaters" thread- haha. They're much closer to being the EV of the water heater world. (Although I suppose that an electric water heater IS the EV of the water heater world, but what do I know?- Although for most households, those are more expensive to run than a gas one.)

Start calling them “HOT water heaters”. That’ll really piss everybody off.

With gas, I have my choice of about 10 different brands in my area with warehouse clubs like Costco and Sam's keeping all of the prices in check. With electric, I would pretty much have the "choice" of the crony capitalism monopoly utility company that services my home. And you're at the mercy of your state government in essence because only the state government has the authority to grant the utility company permission to increase rates at their request.

I'm not anti-EV. In fact I was an early adopter of sorts when I leased a 2013 Leaf. I had a free Chargepoint level 2 charger within a mile of my home and Michigan State government had not caught onto the idea of an extra tax on EV's yet. It was great. I just worry that with all of the "incentives" (ie government handouts) that the government is going to have a lot of say in your EV ownership experience.

My WWII vet grandfather would say that you could save a lot of money by not driving one of those Nazi sleds.

I totally agree with this author. Why do American EV's need to be so big and and fast? Aren't those two attributes antithetical to range and efficiency, two things that EV's should be striving for?

https://jalopnik.com/the-u-s-is-making-the-same-mistakes-with-evs-that-it-m-1849950812?utm_source=YPL

Then let’s get off the high horse and stop pretending that it’s all about the environment. Some ICE cars all the way back in the 80’s could get hybrid-like mileage simply because they were small, light, and had 80 horsepower. Were people able to do everything that 90% of the people who own a car need to do (get to the store, run the kids around, get to work)? Hell yes.

So, let’s just decide. If EV’s are to “help the environment”, they’re not doing the best job that they could. In fact, if the federal government is going to continue to incentivize them with tax dollars, shouldn't those incentives be promoting those vehicles striving for maximum efficiency, not giving a tax break to someone just looking for a new race car?

Please.

Is that a shot?

You’re really big on taking your ball and going home when the direction of the conversation (more specifically, people having a different opinion than yours) is not going the way you’d like. That’s very progressive and tolerant of you.

Are we sure that that's not at a Holiday Inn in Flint, MI?

Those are your suburban-living, over-sized pick up truck, Ford Expedition XL, Chevy Suburban, Cadillac Escalade etc. drivers. Prius and modest EV drivers are those that have nothing to cover for in that department.

Jesus Christ. Just considering all these factors alone is a huge opportunity cost that favors ICE vehicles. How's that for "I hate EV's"!?

Haha- You’re right. Discussion of free miles is probably not the best time to push that argument.

$200 pays for a lot of gas taxes. $200 alone will keep my 2022 Hyundai Accent running for a about 3 months. Yes, not an exciting car, but gets the job done on the cheap. It's the closest car you can get to something like an '04 Civic now in in terms of size, initial costs, and practicality. The new Civic is like the old Accord in terms of size and price. It's pretty unreal. All Japanese compacts are like mid-size cars now (except Mitsubishi). The Koreans are really the only players in the market now. Hyundai dumped the Accent for this year, but you can still get the Kia Rio as both a sedan and hatch. I strongly recommend checking it out if you want a "cheap(er)" (nothing is cheap), reliable real compact non-ev or hybrid with a long warranty. I get 36 MPG combined on mine.

What kind of a puss blocks other people on an internet DISCUSSION forum? Even with members with whom the conversation has turned nasty, you usually can find some common ground somewhere and even have a few laughs when all is said and done. Never take it personally.

And somehow it all managed to happen without the government giving consumers $7500 or whatever the inflation-adjusted amount would have been back then ($1500?) to make it happen.

Feel the burn.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2023/04/20/ford-f-150-lightning-battery-fire-dearborn-police-video/70134293007/

Kind of negates the whole “capitalism” argument unless you’re including crony capitalism into the equation.

Excuse me, are you married to my wife?

Any hypermiling done by me is fully negated by the driving habits of my wife, and then some.

"It is what it is."

Shelby Mach-E. Only in Europe, not for the ugly American apparently.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2023/04/26/shelby-mustang-mach-e-gt-electric-sold-europe/70153440007/

Mach E (resized).jpg

The car or the fact that it's not being released in the U.S.?

Did you not create this thread? Have you forgotten what you titled this thread? Any post other than hating on EV's goes against the very spirit of what you've created here.

Is it acceptable to discuss one’s hate of ev owners over the cars themselves in this thread?

I predict that Nevada won’t be low tax for long. A lot of “in”migration from California and a lot of immigration in general to that state is causing it to change rapidly. People moving there for the “low taxes” incidentally like government that only high taxes can buy.

If EV's were really made to be efficient, green and clean and the government already has a heavy hand in matters with incentives to sell them and plenty of corporate welfare to build them, they could get a lot more miles per charge if the horsepower were ratcheted down a few notches. Just like ICE vehicles of the 80's that could get 50 MPG with 100 HP motor, EV's could be much more efficient if they were made to go a bit slower. 0-60 in 3 seconds is unnecessary. If you think it is, then you're lying to yourself about your so-called desire to be more green and planet-friendly.

The super wealthy elites think that only the working and middle classes should have to do "their part", not them. I remember seeing pics of that "white party" or whatever the hell it's called in the Hamptons, looking at that massive consumption of resources and being well-attended by many supposedly on the side of conservation. What a farce. As far as I'm concerned, if you live in a house greater than 1500 sq. ft., I don't want to hear your bullshit.

Amazingly, I didn't hear one of these scientists encourage people to "follow science" on not being such obese fat asses through it all.

I really don't want to travel too far down this (Covid) road and mess up this lovely facts-only thread, but I don't really understand your accusation. The vaccinations were sold as prevention, and they ended up serving as something that just lessened your symptoms. Still worthwhile to the vulnerable, I'm sure, but not what was sold to public. And cases continued to mount despite the vaccine, so it didn't stop the spread either, which was another promise. CDC.gov says that "Having obesity may triple the risk of hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection." Awesome that that's posted on a government website that no one reads. I don't recall either Covid President, much less any of the scientists even once tell fat people that slimming down could save their lives.

Mr. Dumas was warned that he was headed toward a charging desert. He decided that he might get a freebie from a campground. Big mistake.

Tesla (resized).jpg

EV's should be expected to sell without welfare tax credits or they should perish. The number 1 selling car in America that happens to be an EV should DEFINITELY be expected to sell without tax credits.

For several reasons. Chief among them is that quite simply, the government should be helping you buy your car. Secondly, the government shouldn't be helping automakers sell their cars. The economy runs best when it is driven by demand, not incentives. When supply and demand are artificially manipulated, it has ripple effects that aren't good. We're living with runaway inflation that has put prices several years ahead of where they should be thanks to the government giving people (and businesses) money left and right with no accompanying production behind it, as a result of creating artificial demand.

You guys are reinforcing the point that Teslas, of all cars, should not be subsidized.

Congratulations. Totally wicked specs on that one. It's more care than I could ever afford, want, or need. Is that ridiculous steering wheel the only way to get it? 90% of my driving is with my left hand perched the 12:00 position.

Can we talk about the stupidity of electric lawnmowers now?

My standard 1/4 acre lawn requires anywhere between one and two gallons of gas per summer, depending on rain and grass growth. Electric lawnmower batteries are $100 minimum plus the cost to charge it. And sometimes you need multiple batteries. So, at a liberal $4 a gallon, I can mow my grass for 12.5-25 years for the cost of one battery alone, not even considering the cost to charge it.

To me, gas mowers are just one of the sounds of summer. And the stinky ones are long gone. They had 2 stroke motors. With a 4 stroke motor, you just smell like grass when you're finished, just as you would with an electric mower.

Just because it's trendy it doesn't mean it makes any sense.

Absolutely. (The government doesn't help you pay for your yard tools though, unlike EV's, which upsets free market supply and demand.) I have a battery-powered blower. I was tired of the difficulty of starting that 2 stroke motor after a couple of seasons. They get very sludgy. And they do stink. The lawnmower is a different creature, however. Briggs and Stratton motors run forever and maintenance is basically nil. Check and maybe add a little oil at the start of each summer. Blow out the air filter every other season. I've had my current one for 15 years and haven't even had to change the spark plug yet. And like I said, an average 1.5 gallons of gas is all it takes to mow my lawn all season long.

Those are invisible to the public and are spread out to everyone since everyone uses petroleum products. Very different than targeted free money in your pocket if you drive these specific cars, as in EV's.

Yep. And the companies need to stay in their good graces to make sure that the corporate welfare keeps flowing.