Manhattan, IL
I hope I live long enough to see the hydrogen car groupies looking down on the EV groupies.
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Quoted from Pickle:This!!! Hydrogen has so much potential. It’s just a matter of making it safe so we are not driving little bombs in an accident. And if we can sustain a fusion reaction that would greatly eliminate our need for fossil fuels for power generation.
Also solar is probably the biggest area we have yet to exploit. If we can figure out how to efficiently convert solar energy it truly is a viable option.
Toyota and Hyundai already have a hydrogen car available in select areas
Quoted from GSones:I'm here on Pinside for pinball talk and not this. Now off to the "drain topic" button.
Well, that’s why it’s off topic.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:with a decal of Calvin pissing on a car logo as their messiah, is bizarre.
0617E0CC-B0FE-45BA-A700-727F42537686 (resized).jpegI maybe should put this in the unpopular thread but the Mustang EV is a much nicer vehicle than the model X
Quoted from Reality_Studio:Looks are subjective, nothing wrong with that. I'm not a fan of GM/Ford EV's as they are largely foreign made, nothing implicitly wrong with that but I'm one of those that prefers buying local whenever possible to support local industry. With Tesla making the most American made cars out there along with supporting our manufacturing, AI, robotics, energy, etc industries they are the one I want to support, but I'm weird like that.
It’s more than looks, interiors on Tesla’s are hideous. It’s just a better vehicle. Have you driven both?
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36877450/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-ev-of-the-year/
Quoted from Reality_Studio:I haven't driven one but I've been in them along with others like the Taycan, etc, cuz you see them all around here. I don't like the interiors of most legacy EV's, to me they look like tweaked 90's interiors, they just look too dated but that's me. Same with the Taycan for example, I personally hate the interior it looks dated. I don't mind the Ionic 5 as they are going for a retro look so in that case going retro works. I love the interiors on the refreshed Tesla's, again just my preference, to me they look gorgeous and well put together. But that's why we have choices, you do you I do me. I never bothered to drive any of the other brands EV's as they are all just too slow for me. I'm a torque junkie, can never have enough torque so again to me, legacy auto EV's are just too slow and never a consideration even if just for that but there's lots of other reasons.
I’ve driven them both, just ordered a Bronco 
Quoted from Reality_Studio:The new Bronco looks cool, can't deny that!
They’re closing orders for 22’s in March, mine will be about a year before I get it 
It amazes me how short sighted the Elon nut huggers are. The EV is just a bridge from one ICE to another. While the EV is definitely more environmentally conscious, it is still extremely flawed. Toyota just announced a collaboration with Yamaha to produce a hydrogen V8, and said they plan to be completely carbon neutral by 2050. Meaning no EV. Oh and Cummins announced another on the same day.
<blockquote cite
Hydrogen doesn't have a chance compared to electric for a whole host of reasons far too long to get into here. But other's (that don't have ties/kickbacks to legacy auto) have covered this far better than I could on a forum.
Yep, same BS EV naysayers were saying 20 years ago. So you’re saying there will be no advancements beyond the modern tech that is electricity? Lol. Hopefully we can revisit this conversation in 15-20 years.
Quoted from jeffro01:Except it's not. Hydrogen powered cars are dead... I believe both Honda AND Toyota have both announced they are abandoning their hydrogen fuel cell R&D. Why? Because hydrogen is extremely dangerous to transport, store, dispense. Also, the bulk of hydrogen would be generated from fossil fuels which is problematic in that they won't last forever...
Jeff
Umm what??
Toyota just announced a hydrogen ICE with Yamaha yesterday and plan to be completely carbon neutral, meaning no EVs by 2050
Quoted from Davidus56:EVs were a necessary stop gap measure on the way to hydrogen powered vehicles. Fusion energy is necessary to make hydrolysis economical (H2O = 2H+O). Now that Deep Mind has solved the plasma containment problem, commercial application of fusion energy will become reality by 2030. Lithium powered EVs will be a distant memory by 2060.
Overall I give Elon a B+ for getting the world on the right path. He gets points off for promoting full self driving that resulted in the deaths of many innocent if naive victims.
The Musk-a-teers are convinced this is a dead idea. Even though the largest auto maker in the world just announced they plan on being totally carbon neutral by 2050.
Quoted from paynemic:You keep quoting this as a justification for hydrogen. If a car company makes EVs and gets all their electricity from wind (hypothetically), is that not carbon neutral? I’m just confused about your “carbon neutral=hydrogen” claim. Do you have links about this?
Similarly, why does fusion (which I am so excited for an actual solution) mean hydrogen cars? It’s an unlimited source of energy. As battery tech (like solid state) improves, why would fusion=hydrogen? There’s electric chargers in literally every building in the US. Yet anti-ev people constantly say the infrastructure will be a hurdle. Hydrogen refilling has practically zero infrastructure. I actually don’t care much, I think traditional gasoline ICE engines are on the way out either way, but I’m puzzled about hydrogen. All the news I’ve read about it says it’s dead. Is it making a resurgence? Can you post some links?
I’m just as confused as why I keep hearing hydrogen is dead, I posted links a ways back in this thread about 2 major manufacturers announcing this week about their hydrogen engine plans.
Quoted from TheLaw:Impossible. Bob only has a Terrain when comparing it to a sportscar.
He also is a master negotiator a the dealership; don;t know if you've ever heard that one the internet before.
Master negotiator nowadays is getting a vehicle at MSRP.
Quoted from MrBally:[quoted image]
It’s the best anti theft device on the market now
Quoted from jeffro01:Even if this concept comes to market, which it won't, there literally isn't any place to refuel it... I believe the article said there are 46 hydrogen stations in the US. And people whine about BEV range...??? There's also still that pesky issue with delivery and the reality that most hydrogen comes from natural gas...
It's not that I don't applaud different technologies and I'm sure there is a use for hydrogen powered transportation in certain segments, it just won't be in every day automobiles. I suppose if you could come up with a way to generate hydrogen without fossil fuels being the source that would be something but you still have the delivery and storage issues to contend with.
To me mass produced hydrogen cars are like nuclear fusion, the potential is there, but the reality isn't.
Jeff
Did you even read the article? It’s much further along then your thinking. You can’t possibly think EV is as far as the automobile will advance.
Quoted from jeffro01:Never said any of that and yes I read the article. It also said things like "details are scarce" and "later this decade" but okay...
Jeff
I’m not saying it’s going to be tomorrow, but you’re the one that said it’s dead, dead, dead. Which is dead wrong. The largest auto manufacturer in the world just announced a massive hydrogen powered V8 project. Successful companies do not invest hundreds of millions into “dead” tech.
There is 2 passenger cars already on the market, California is planning on 60 more fueling stations by 25. East coast is in development for a bunch as well. There’s currently 40,000 hydrogen powered passenger vehicles worldwide, most of those in Japan. The whole driving a bomb is nonsense.
I don’t hate EVs, I almost bought a Mustang Mach E. They wanted 15k over MSRP. I ended up ordering a Bronco that I’ll have to wait a year+ to get.
Quoted from girloveswaffles:See! This is what I've said about the Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles! If I got one today, the nearest refueling station for me is fifteen miles away! Drive 30 (or more) miles to refuel and use up a nifty percentage of your range by the time you get home! EV's make a lot more sense in that area.
The Toyota Mirai comes with a card for 3 years of free fuel.
Quoted from girloveswaffles:3 years worth of fuel that you have to drive a considerable distance to get isn't convenient.
Seriously. I live in Metropolitan Los Angeles County. I'm half way between L.A and Santa Ana in Orange County. I'd be refueling two or three times a week and wasting time just getting to a refueling location. God forbid I would want to drive to Vegas in a Mirai (also one of the ugliest cars on the road along with it's look alike Prius ). Hard pass on hydrogen.
I agree, they are still in their infancy. And they are damn ugly. I also think almost all EVs, save a couple, are as well.
The one innovation that Tesla brought that I hope is here to stay, is direct sales. I’d rather get a colonoscopy then deal with the current car buying experience.
Quoted from paynemic:I think I jinxed myself starting this thread… after four flawless Teslas, my two week old model Y is in the shop! Hahah. Just wouldn’t roll out of the driveway one morning. It had a very polite error message that said to call service. Still being diagnosed.
The good news is that I got a model X for a loaner. I’ve forgotten how cool the model X is. Updates about my breakdown will be forthcoming…
That sucks, sorry to hear. It’s still an issue with Tesla’s.
https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reliability-poor-2021/amp/
Quoted from yaksplat:I just email every dealer within 200 miles and ask for their best price on the car i want. With the ones that respond I'll negotiate. On my last car purchase, i negotiated and set up my trade in entirely via text. Pictures of my trade in and all. I drove 2 hours, was at the dealership for an hour and drove my new car home. I can't think of an easier process other than having the car dropped off at my house.
Ordering new was a breeze as well, built the truck on the Ford app and sent it to the local dealer, was in and out in 20 minutes. I’m not trading anything in, selling privately. Only way I’ll buy a vehicle going forward. Kind of makes new car dealerships useless, IMO.
Quoted from razorsedge:I don't think it is -just- the oil companies.
It’s a part of it for sure, but there’s a lot more layers than just greedy oil companies.
1 month later
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:"How dare that guy be happy with a vehicle that suits his needs!"
This exactly, I don’t understand the hate for someone’s preference and needs on either side. I just bought an ICE because currently an EV doesn’t suit my needs. That certainly could change in the future though. I definitely have no resentment for someone driving anything they want.
Quoted from Dawson:Why would anyone want to sell me a gas car ? The people that drive them don’t really like them ,it’s just what suits them.
This statement is exactly why there are so many people that hate EVs, specifically the people that drive them. It is sheer arrogance, dumb as hell, and just flat out wrong.
1 week later
Quoted from fosaisu:Is this now a Beat Poetry thread? Very stream of consciousness, man.
I’m a better person for having read it.
1 week later
Quoted from jeffro01:Hard to pack in that much BS in so few sentences but congrats, you managed to do it... JFC...
Have you EVER driven a Tesla? Look, the company is an unethical disaster but the cars themselves are unlike anything else on the road. Period. Full Stop. Has it ever occurred to you that some people just want to drive a fast car with instant torque?
Jeff
I hear instant torque and speed ad nauseum from Tesla owners. Yet I’ve never seen one launch off the line and the only time I see them is when I’m flying by them while they’re doing 55 in the right lane. Maybe we have a different definition of driving fun? Oh, I did see one take a Big Gulp off the windshield on the Dan Ryan for driving slow in the left lane, that was fun.
Quoted from paynemic:If you’re ever in idaho I’d love to hang out, play some pinball, and drive the funnest thing you’ve ever ridden in. I promise you’d change your tune. You might not be converted to a fan, but it’s hard to be a hater after you’ve ridden in one. I blow everyone off the line. Every time. Period.
Btw what kind of human beings are tossing big gulps and coal rolling people over their choice of cars? Where does the anger come from?
There’s no anger at all, I’ve driven one and am not anti EV. It was just an observation. And FYI, the dude didn’t get a Big Gulp tossed on him because he was driving a Tesla, it was because he was driving like a tool in the left lane. It was on the Dan Ryan, he was lucky it was only a Big Gulp.
Quoted from fosaisu:Did the Big Gulp originate in your car? Just a hunch ...
Hell no, those things are like 99 cents.
Quoted from jeffro01:Yikes... That's some serious delusion... If you wanted to know, you'd know, but you don't so it's easier to sit in your chair and spout ignorance rather than find out what 0-60 in 3 sec feels like anytime you want to have it... Hell, my Model X wasn't a performance X and it still did 0-60 in 4.5 so again... You do you.
Go and drive one, that'll shut you up quickly.
Jeff
Yikes, reading is hard, For the 50th time, I’ve driven one and am not anti EV, again I have never seen one do anything but go under the speed limit on the interstate. I’ve never denied their straight line speed.
Quoted from jeffro01:LOL... I never said you were anti-EV... Talk about reading being hard...
Your entire argument is based on how you've seen others drive their cars? LOL...
Again, you do you...
Jeff
What argument? It was just an observation, I’ve never said that their straight line speed wasn’t impressive. You’re arguing with no one.
Would make no difference to an EV owner, the average time without power for a rolling blackout is an hour.
3 weeks later
The F150 lightning comes with a Tesla adapter, it can’t charge on the Tesla superchargers yet, but the truck itself can charge a Tesla, pretty neat.
3 weeks later
I haven’t checked in in awhile, did you guys convince bob_e to buy an EV yet?
2 weeks later
Quoted from Dawson:by troll you mean truth ?
plenty of studies on both the problems with noise pollution and emissions on developing brains
GM government motors ?
or SEC and Mary Barra ?
must be missing something
468F9950-0B53-4811-B2CC-5629122BBBCC.gif 2 months later
Quoted from Fytr:It's happening!
"US Department of Defense embracing electric military vehicles using GM’s Ultium Platform"
https://electrek.co/2022/10/07/us-department-of-defense-embracing-electric-military-vehicles/
Hopefully the enemy isn’t armed with Super Soakers
Quoted from zaphX:You do realize electric cars (and chargers) work in rain, right?
Really?
1 week later
Quoted from UnnDunn:Well, I finally took my Kona EV on a major road trip. NYC to Chicago for Pinball Expo. The trip went super smoothly, except for one EA charging station where I had to call customer service to reboot a charger to get it to work. I used the app A Better Routeplanner to plan the route and... let's just say it could use a lot more work. But in the end, it did its job and got me here.
What I didn't expect was how bitterly cold it would be in Chicago. Temperatures in the 30s and 40s (°F). It even snowed a little on the way here. My car has a thing called "Winter Mode", which sacrifices range in order to keep the battery warm so it can charge as fast as possible on a DC Fast Charger. This is the first time it has been turned on, and the range loss is more significant than I expected. It has taken almost a third off the range of my car, so on a full charge it gets around 210 miles where it used to get 280-290 miles. Not the end of the world, but it's definitely something to think about when planning future trips. I think I will keep Winter Mode off until I intend to go on a long trip.
It’ll be back in the low 70s this weekend
2 months later
Quoted from fosaisu:Hey Pinplayer, you wouldn’t happen to be a Chicago Bears fan, would you?
, Do you mean Cleveland Browns fan?
2 weeks later
Quoted from vid1900:You know what will propel EVs into the mainstream?
Simply being the better product.
A keen eye might notice something about the top of the charts
Rimac Nevera – 1.85 seconds (0-60mph)
Lucid Air Sapphire – 1.89 seconds (0-60mph)
Pininfarina Battista – 1.9 seconds (0-62mph)
Tesla Model S Plaid – 2.3 seconds (0-60mph)
Ultima Evolution Coupe (supercharged) & Ultima RS LT5 – 2.3 seconds (0-60mph)
Dodge Challenger SRT Demon – 2.3 seconds (0-60mph)
Bugatti Chiron Super Sport – 2.4 seconds (0-62mph)
Koenigsegg Jesko – 2.5 seconds (0-60mph)
Ferrari SF90 Stradale - 2.5 seconds (0-62mph)
Hennessey Venom F5 – 2.6 seconds (0-60mph)
One of the few times the Trickle Down theory is accurate
Most people could care less about 0-60 times, what will help make EVs mainstream is affordability and availability. And we aren’t there yet.
Quoted from flynnibus:A camary xle v6 is $40k MSRP with only modest options
A honda accord ex v6 is basically 31k MSRP
A Tesla Model 3 moderately optioned is about 50k MSRP - 7500 incentive
So less than 10% difference than the camary... a minivan is 45k+
The gap isn't that big when people are actually shopping new cars.
That’s just a small part of the equation, you’re not going on to a lot and finding a 3-5 yr old Tesla for $20k. Also what’s the current wait time on a new Tesla? Americans are an impatient bunch
Quoted from flynnibus:I guess that's why I said "The gap isn't that big when people are actually shopping new cars."
you know.. actually shopping NEW cars.
Some people will just not buy used. And enough people seem to buy new that it's still a thing to make them and sell them as new
Tesla wait used to be a big story, but pretty much most car companies caught up to them But for giggles I put in Model 3 with less than 5k miles into Tesla Inventory and found 25 in my area... that number jumps to about 100 if I include the neighboring states where inventory is commonly pulled from.
That’s why I said it’s only part of the equation, used cars are still a massive percentage of what’s being bought, you know....the real world.
Quoted from PanzerKraken:Averages are funny cause it's just that. We have a bunch of affordable EV options in the 30k range.
We just picked up our Mini Cooper EV which was 35
Sure. You can find an ICE for $5k. ICE are currently more affordable is the point. And until EVs are equal or less they won’t be “mainstream”.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:I consider myself to be an average American. My wife and I both make around $60-65K per year. My last USED vehicle purchase was $52K. It's certainly affordable. Not everyone's budget is set up the same way.
Your household income is way above the average household income, FYI.
Quoted from flynnibus:Yet... trucks... SUVs... luxury cars.. all mainstream without being equal or cheaper than avg cars.
Funny how this works isn't it?
Which is currently more affordable ICE or EV?
I know it’ll be difficult for you, but just a one word answer to this question.
Quoted from flynnibus:Define 'more affordable'?
If you mean lowest available sales price? Obviously ICE - there are more options and a more mature market.
But that's not the stat you used and your logic that proceed it also countered your own point.
But if you are shopping for an affordable new car today... you're not comparing 5k to 65k (both numbers you put forth). You gotta accept that the typical car people are shopping for is actually much more expensive. I posted the prices of two of the most popular mid-sized sedans in the country... they aren't 23k anymore!
Being able to leave my house right now and having over 1000 options under 20k within 20 miles and driving home in something tonight, until you can do that with EVs they won’t be mainstream has been my whole point.
The pricing is out of reach for the average American, that might not be the case in the future but it is now.
Quoted from flynnibus:A criteria that doesn't actually work for over 75% of the new vehicles sold in this country -- So I think it's time to accept your criteria for defining 'mainstream' is garbage.
If you want to hang your hat on used car prices.. then stick to that argument.
Are more new or used cars sold every year?
Quoted from flynnibus:A criteria that doesn't actually work for over 75% of the new vehicles sold in this country -- So I think it's time to accept your criteria for defining 'mainstream' is garbage.
If you want to hang your hat on used car prices.. then stick to that argument.
I just said affordability, you’re the one who brought in the new car BS. It’s laughable that you could honestly say that an EV is more affordable than an ice. They’re not and it’s not particularly close, when you factor in used car prices, which by the way is still how the majority of cars are bought.
2 months later
Quoted from titanpenguin:I’m actually still wanting an ev charger if dodge doesn’t screw it up. I have this nagging fear once it’s released they should have called it a Le Baron.
They were pretty sweet
D2775682-2805-4B8E-A321-C656B76321EA (resized).jpegQuoted from titanpenguin:Is that a le baron or a diplomat?
It’s a le baron
1 week later
3 weeks later
Quoted from Fytr:One of my favorite things about the US of A is how they generally completely disregard/ignore the experiences of other countries. It's often as if the rest of the planet might as well not exist. For example, The Metric System (tm), effective gun control, effective public transport and high speed rail, and now, effective EV adoption!
"Norway's near-total adoption of electric vehicles appears to be going smoothly, defying skeptics" - https://theweek.com/electric-vehicles/1023343/norways-near-total-adoption-of-electric-vehicles-appears-to-be-going
I could care less about what’s going on in Indiana, let alone Liechtenstein
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:How much less could you care?
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