While I've never worked for or reported to a billionaire, I did work for and reported to a business man who was worth at least 1/4 billion. He was the quirkiest person I had ever met in so many ways. I seriously think the reason that these types of people are successful is they just think and see the world in a different way than the vast majority of others. I remember having one-on-one conversations with him where I would leave just shaking my head, then I would have to remind myself that in this scenario I wasn't the uber successful millionaire, so I should probably reflect a little more on his perspective even though much of what he said seemed ridiculous, illogical, and unreasonable to me at the time.

By no means am I saying that Elon is a saint or that his opinions are the right ones. What I am saying is that to degrade or underestimate him like he's a bumbling idiot just isn't being intellectually honest. Just because he drives the organizations in ways that some/many might not agree with, doesn't mean that he's wrong and they are right. My basic tenants when it comes to this topic are:
- Anyone can be critical of someone else who has success, but I always give more credence to those who have done than those who have not done and criticize.
- If you don't like the way someone else is running their business, then show me what you've done to run yours that is better.
- Anyone can have grandiose ideas, but it takes an especially skilled and determined person to actually turn their ideas into reality.
- I never tell anyone else how to spend their money.

I have the opposite mind.
I've met plenty of financially successful people that were idiots, jerks, or both. Success is orthogonal to character and intellect.

Especially in the case of someone like Elon whose financial success is largely unearned.

I don't really get that. I'm not one to believe that financial/business success falls upon anyone by chance (apart from the spoiled brat who inherits a company - but in my experience it doesn't take long for those types to usually drive the company into the ground). You are correct, however, in that we all form opinions that are heavily based on our own experiences. If we've had different experiences in our careers that have contributed to opposing viewpoints, then who am I to question or discredit your perspective?

BTW, I still think you would enjoy the book I recommended as it really goes after corporate culture with a heavy emphasis on critiquing the ownership/management level in a very creative cynical way via satire.

Here's a small taste of the book:

Put another way - it takes more than money and financial success to impress me.
I would never assume a person knows what they are doing just because their bank account exceeds my own.

Things I do care about:

- How does this person treat others?
- Do they make thoughtful, data-driven decisions, or do they shoot impulsively from the hip, "my way or the highway?"
- Are they approachable and receptive to input?
- Are they willing to change their mind when presented with new data?
- Do they recognize and reward people who've made contributions?
- How do they handle a crisis?

I'd argue we are seeing exactly that happen to Twitter in realtime (and Tesla as related collateral damage.)

That Kia looks pretty damned impressive.

Really two different topics. I wasn't speaking to a person's character or justifying their behavior (I don't disagree with any of your statements), rather, to ignore or degrade someone's success when you yourself (not you personally) have never taken such a risk nor executed ideas to become reality at their level seems flippant at best to me.

I'd say that was a false equivalency, but the topic is a little too hot to touch and probably out of bounds on Pinside to do it justice.

Except for that ugly logo.

I owned a Kia Optima several years ago that I bought new with all the options as at the time I needed a reliable affordable car. I forget what year maybe '04-'05 range when they modernized the body style, but that was the biggest dung heap of an automobile I ever purchased. May have been a lemon to some extent, but it was enough to make me commit to never owning another one in my life and telling everyone I know the same.

I think we agree.

I do not know that.

He has a bachelor's degree in physics and economics.

He used to be a great frontman, but he ain't no rocket scientist

That is just not factually true. Yes, those are his degrees, but a degree does not make you an expert in a field or prevent you from being an expert in another field. If you read anything historically or listed to interviews from the expert rocket consultants involved in the early stages of Space X they all credit Elon's ability to learn and apply knowledge in the rocketry field (almost unanimously they state that Elon is the smartest person they have ever met). They do also talk about his brashness in those days, but also credit him as being an original creative thinker. As CTO, Elon was deeply involved in the engineering of the rockets and overcoming design challenges.

Here is a brief article that attest to this fact from his peers for anyone interested in reading it: https://erik-engheim.medium.com/is-elon-musk-just-a-sales-guy-9d3eb7a1b49c

You are obviously entitled to have a negative opinion towards the man, but you cannot overlook his verified accomplishments.

That's really just a puff piece, not any kind of real article.

Quoting interviews from Joe Rogan is not really anything of substance, lol

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That is one compilation, and I can find you dozens even in books some of those involved have written that testify to Elon's brilliance and involvement. Why the obtuseness on this issue?

Sorry, not going to take the insight of an intern into how manipulation works in enterprise. The kind of stuff he outlines you see everywhere because everyone knows you have to get the execs to buy into the ideas you want them to... not just their own things.

Like I said, he was one of the greatest hypemen for quite a while. I give him full credit for that.

There is a full version of that twitter meeting, and even before he melts down, you can tell he knows nothing about coding for large scale

The development team leaders even try to reword his statements into actual sense and ask him if that's what he meant, but he even refuses the softball pitches.

Totally clueless.

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Lack of R and D?

Especially when 80% of the new cars sold in Norway are EVs, and that's, you know, in the Arctic Circle

LOL

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I know if do end up buying a new KIA next year, the first thing I'll do is remove those horrid "k/backwards N" logos!
It's awful on so many levels and not just because of the letters running together. I don't know what is worse: The guy that designed it or the people that looked at it and said "Oh, this looks good!".

I admit that KIA was due for a new logo, along with Hyundai, Toyota, Dodge and a few others, but good lord! This wasn't what they needed.

https://twitter.com/cyrusrezvanian/status/1606398230731841536?s=20&t=2f2-F4m1MK6W3fSLJJ5psw

"Full Self Drive is here!"

Not EV-related, but parallel to some...

My electric 1980's water heater exceeded 175 degrees sometime over the past few days. Could replace the thermostat, but decided to get a HYBRID water heater instead.

Hybrid. Water. Heater? Yep. It’s basically a heat pump on top of a water tank. The surrounding basement air gets sucked into the compressor, the heat is extracted into the water, and the cold air goes out. Just like a minisplit HVAC system.

A bonus? It also dehumidifies the air! Perfect for the basement.

Another bonus? Huge energy savings! Massive! Most electric water heaters use $450-$650 in electricity per year alone. About 25% of your annual electric bill… ouch. But a hybrid only uses $100-$150 per year… a paltry 6% of the total.

My electric provider just raised rates, but after this gets installed I won’t even notice.

If you need or will soon need a water heater, you'd better hurry because there isn't much time left to get the tax credit.

UPDATE: The 65 and 80 gallon models just went on sale at Home Depot this morning (12/26) until the end of the year.

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Very cool. I have a lot of waste heat in my utility room in the basement during cold weather thrown off by gas furnaces. That would go a long way to heating the water in this rig.

Yes and if you vent the cold return air into your house in summer, a bit of free AC too.

I hate hot water!

lol.

I do kind of like it when I step into the utility room and all gas furnaces and water heaters are burning full bore. Like being in the engine room of the Titanic.

Which shows you that incentives are above everything else in general.

I bought my first EV in 2013 and have my fourth on order. I “love” EVs but I live in Dallas and not in Oslo.

My current one is a Tesla Model 3P. I don’t think I would drive an EV in a cold climate. They totally SUCK in cold weather.

We just had a short taste of cold in Dallas. Wow, was my Model 3P a *dud* when temperatures were in the 20s. The BMS got so conservative that it felt sluggish (nowhere near the 3s 0-60, felt more like a 4cyl Camry) and an almost total loss of regen braking. Range also dropped to less than 200 miles, WTF?!?

Those nordic european countries buy EVs because of favorable regulations and incentives despite EVs being horrid in their climate.

That's really interesting! I'm in Dallas too (Frisco.)

I've found that cold weather takes a bit off range, but haven't noticed a performance degradation. I'll ask the wife if she's noticed any on her M3 LR (RWD.)

I really noticed it Friday morning on the DNT, stepping on the pedal and it took off like a 4cyl econobox lol. I am so used to the kick in the butt acceleration that it felt disturbing. The car was 80% charged but there were many dots on both sides of the current line, indicating that the BMS throttled the current draw aggressively to protect the battery. Which is the right thing to do. I’m working on BMS myself in my engineering job so it’s not unexpected that Tesla programmed it that way but it would make me not want an EV in a cold climate.

Except how much excess heat is there in your basement? For a mild climate like VA this seems to be a less than ideal situation.

Hearing a basement only to be trying to suck that heat out to try to heat water at even higher temps.

I asked Susan, she hasn't noticed performance degradation on hers. But it's not apples to apples, it's an older car (2018), RWD only, etc. It's entirely possible she's just not romping on it to where she would notice.

I just replaced my water heater and was tempted by a hybrid but had the same concern in my finished basement - I want it at 68-70 down there in the winter, so not thrilled at the idea of the water heater stealing air my furnace just heated. Might work out better in the summer but from what I’ve read it’s not an ideal option if the water heater is located in finished space.

Oooohhh a unicorn Model 3 LR RWD? They should have kept making those - so efficient.

It’s been pretty good for us, and faster than my 991 Targa 4S and my Taycan base.

Heat pumps can squeeze a surprising amount of heat from ambient room temps without much impact. It might temporarily drop your room temp by about five degrees while it runs. Depends upon the room size of course.

My situation is perfect: Unfinished basement location near a gas boiler pumping hot water to house radiators. Basement stays about 70-75 degrees year-round. Lots of excess heat... might as well put it to good use.

Thinking I might place the exhaust air on a shutoff valve leading into the kitchen. During the summer it's like free AC.

Heat pumps control and move heat very efficiently. A crucial technology for humanity's future.

It’s cool tech and I’m definitely not opposed to one in the future. And maybe I could even have engineered a good solution for my current setup, but didn’t have the time or energy to research it so I went conventional. I imagine they’ll have it all worked out by the time I’m in the market for another water heater.

Those babies are more expensive than I imagined, but I see that HD Pro has them 35% off all this week.

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Ok at this point I really must ask for a separate "I hate water heaters" thread

More like "I hate HYBRID water heaters" thread- haha. They're much closer to being the EV of the water heater world. (Although I suppose that an electric water heater IS the EV of the water heater world, but what do I know?- Although for most households, those are more expensive to run than a gas one.)

Tankless water heaters are the way to go. Any tank is a waste of energy and resources.

Hey OP, time to retitle the thread. We’ve changed course!

"I hate progress and new ideas!"

No, I just hate water heaters.

Start calling them “HOT water heaters”. That’ll really piss everybody off.

How aboot calling tankless/continuous ones "tankless hot water tanks"?

Our water heater rusted this time last year. We got quotes on tank and tankless from the same company. Tank was about $1800 installed. Tankless was like $7000 (part of it was they would have to rerun some pipes and stuff). They told us tankless wouldn't work well in cold weather or if multiple things were using it at the same time.

I'm seriously asking: can we move water heaters to a dedicated thread?

I'm not kidding when I say I hate these things. I do not care about them AT ALL. When I have to buy one, it's because one has failed, and I am pissed off about the purchase and the hassle.

Even if they’re electric? What if they were battery powered heaters and you just plugged them in at night while you sleep?
There’s gotta be a way to get past this hate. I guess the good thing is when the one you have now inevitably breaks you can get an all electric.

I think I have the solution zaphX !!!
You should spend some quality time with your water heater and perhaps decorate it or dress it up.
How could anyone hate these cuties?!!!

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