My point was the cost. Does your Y haul a pin? my guess is no... becuase you kept the Highlander for the heavy lifting.

SHOUTY CAPS = GMC AWD SLE NOT & EV get real

** was to highlight ** the request to show me, an ev equal to my car size/price. And forget hauling a pinball

wacky hypotheticals: The cost of the cars are real, the return on my Fidelity Mutual funds were over 9% the last five years. But If you want do a conservative 6% and still use free (hypothetical ) for your cost of electricity.
At 6% return $1045 would yield 9,051 miles closer to what I actually drive.

So what would you consider a non "wacky" hypothetical ???

Give me a real answer please....instead of the typical musketeer rant

Michelin Pilot sport A/S 3 2 years ago at discount tire were about $1050.
A huge improvement over the Goodyear F1 runflats in ride quality and tire noise.
The Gooyear F1 OEM tires were about $1750 back then.

Give that a tune-up, you should be getting at least 12 MPG. I had a 1999 Suburban 2500 with 454 and 4.10 gear that got that!

This was pioneered by "The Oracle of Madison Wisconsin"

What might happen when the Cybertuck gets produced with the self driving feature

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Do not complain about rising gas prices just go buy an EV

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Ya, it's sad reading some of these posts and it reminds me of what people said about computers and the internet. How sad for the people not wanting to embrace change and enjoying the ride (pun intended).

Some good math, except maybe 8% return. Historical averages not reliable for true comparison. Could be more, could be less- just not reliable.

According to the polls, most people in this thread love EVs!! Super!… sheep. During the Carter administration- yeah, we might as well. Now?!! The US finally becomes a net oil producer again and we are subsidizing EV cars only? Not hybrids, just EVs.. This is the epitome of a non functional society. Oh, yeah- China just put in 33 GW of coal power plants last year.
We are $30 trillion in debt. We shouldn’t be subsidizing any form of individual transport. “Oh, I have to get home quick for my family”… so they can drive them 30-60m for some after school activity which might get them a partial “scholarship” at a private college where they will still graduate $200k in debt for a bachelors? Come on..
Anybody see that Netflix Aziz Ansari special where he called out people asking Aaron Rodgers to be great at science? Well, comedians aren’t great at finance. At this point, we’ve borrowed from our grandkids. Not the time anybody should be pushing EVs. “Oh, I plug in at home and ready to go in the morning…”. What happens when everybody plugs in? Rolling black outs for days in CA probably- nobodies car works in the morning. How much will it cost to heat a home in -10 F for a week in WI? If we all tap the non- gasoline grid, all prices will go up.

Why are my tax dollars paying anybody to buy a car? Put my taxes into stealth drone tomahawks please.. Too late for climate change, but we can take out Putin before the flood! Start building arks people, watch Waterworld…

even Mother nature hates Teslas

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Well I did a second run with 6% return

or $16440 / $3.35 a gallon * 29 mpg = 142,316 miles of driving, or about 12 years at 12K miles a year

It amazes me how short sighted the Elon nut huggers are. The EV is just a bridge from one ICE to another. While the EV is definitely more environmentally conscious, it is still extremely flawed. Toyota just announced a collaboration with Yamaha to produce a hydrogen V8, and said they plan to be completely carbon neutral by 2050. Meaning no EV. Oh and Cummins announced another on the same day.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/future-tech/toyota-and-yamaha-are-developing-hydrogen-fuelled-v8?amp=1

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/cummins-unveils-a-combustion-engine-that-could-run-on-any-fuel-it-s-the-end-182302.html

That's a little over dramatic

In the last 4 months, a car is a better investment than putting money in the market

People can buy and drive them all they want, I don't care one way or the other. I just don't want to own one myself.

Doesn't matter, environmentalists want the internal combustion engine dead.

Mazda came up with a great hydrogen powered package a decade or two ago. As it turns out a rotary engine is awesome burning hydrogen due it the large surface area of the rotor assembly.

California REFUSED to certify the drivetrain because the tailpipe emissions contained...wait for it... trace amounts of engine lubricant.

I don't hate EVs. I hate the people pushing them.

I gotta say the only thing I really actually HATE about EVs or even just new cars is:

WHY ARE THEY PUTTING FLAT PANEL SCREEN BASED CONTROLS WHERE I NEED TACTILE CONTROLS THAT I DONT HAVE TO LOOK AT?!?!

It's awful. Literally awful. No I don't want to have games on a massive 18" screen playing while I'm driving.

No I don't want to have to tilt my head each time to change the temperature or a song.

Get this fucking horrendously disgusting and distracting TECH-BRO-TRUCK-TESTICLES shit off my multi-thousand pound death machine.

I have to keep me and my family and my passengers safe and it's just a big giant WHY PAD in my field of view!

This is probably the first thread with good discussion that has not turned into a complete hate thread. I appreciate all the opinions/information shared by all. It’s entertaining, informative and all very relevant as we all have vehicle decisions still to be made in our lifetime. Technology is evolving and to understand it better allows everyone to make the choice that best suits their needs. I am still holding out for my Flying Delorean….

I've got nothing against EV's as a concept, I just don't care for Tesla design philosophy when it comes to the basic functionality of a car. Watching people trying to make a 3 point turn with a yolk steering wheel and a touchpad gear selector is just painful. I understand being innovative and trying to do new things....as long as you actually make them better. Don't make basic functionalities difficult and distracting, particularly with something as critical as steering.

Now that other companies, other than Tesla, are coming out with EV's I'm becoming much more receptive. By the time I'm due for another vehicle I'll be giving EV's a close look. I'd absolutely love if Mazda came out with an electric version of the MX-5, and there's talk that the next generation MR2 might be all-electric as well. That could be sooooooo sweet.

I chuckle when people state change is good, it isn't always.

Try plowing snow with Ram truck with its rotary shift knob and you will start swearing a blue streak. And stupidly, the same shape and size roughly as the fan control 2 inches away.

Imagine plowing a tight lot and have to take your eyes of your environment around you so you can verify what gear you are in and then have to look around to make sure you dont back over some clueless passerby in the meantime.

Rinse repeat a few hundred times.

Column shift? You never even have to look, you can tell by the shifter detents. You never have to take your eyes off the environment around you.

Mechanical shifters cost money though.

Progress!!

And God help you should you think about opening the door to see what's behind you as the computer WILL put you in park because some idiot ran themselves over.

I get you, but this door swings both ways.

Owning a Tesla, I can say that the vast majority of conversations I've had with people have been mostly practicality focused. What's the millage, battery lifespan, cost of the vehicle, electricity costs, etc. Occasionally we talk about lithium mining, but it's usually pros and cons vs oil drilling. It's good natured, most people don't think EVs are there yet, for one reason or another, and I get it.

But every once in a while, there's someone who just hates the fact I have an electric vehicle. Usually, there isn't even a reason for it. They just keep on ragging and ragging on it. I don't know if they think they're funny or what, but after a while, I'm like, dude, the horse is dead. Give it up.

And you know, if I disagree with this type of person, I'M the one who's going to get labeled as the Elon Musk nut hugger, or whatever. It's annoying.

Also, those guys who park their trucks perpendicular, blocking off a bunch of supercharger stalls are real and complete assholes.

What you drive is no skin off my nose. As an old car salesman told me once, there is an ass for every seat.

People like what they like.

When some idiot from government mandates what people drive (and make themselves exempt of course) I get a bit touchy.

Yokes I don't like, but I haven't noticed the shifting to be an issue, and my garage enters into a very narrow Chicago alley that takes constant back and forths to get in and out of. But this also isn't my first car with a steering wheel shifter, so I might just be used to it at this point.

Fair enough, though when I hear it's California that is trying to pass some mandate, I usually chalk it up to California being California. Those guys make even Illinois look libertarian in comparison.

Saying in the car industry, so goes California so goes the rest of the nation. California is or was the number one state for car sales. Everything pretty much gets made to California spec as it costs to much to have separate specs built.

Tesla's are the safest vehicles on the road, consistently getting top ratings and the SUV couldn't even be flipped in crash testing so you're good there.

It doesn't matter what California does when the rest of the world is also doing it and in some cases at a quicker pace. We have no choice but to go along with it, if we don't we won't be able to sell our cars in world markets in a few years. There was no choice.

Hydrogen doesn't have a chance compared to electric for a whole host of reasons far too long to get into here. But other's (that don't have ties/kickbacks to legacy auto) have covered this far better than I could on a forum.

Definitely seems to depend on the age group. Young folk love them and have endless questions for me about mine, while they viewed my previous Camaro as "Uncool" and "Dad's car" as some put it. Old folk though can have extreme bordering on vitriolic hatred for them, can't say I understand why. It's why for example in the car thread here I had posted pics of my Camaro, but wouldn't dare post pics of my Tesla, it would just get downvoted to oblivion.

I had actually cancelled a Model S Plaid+ order because of the yoke, at the time I fell into the circle jerk of hate. Some months later I decided to hell with it I'll try it, mostly because I noticed a pattern. Anything tied to legacy auto endlessly crapped on it but typical folk doing reviews on YouTube like moms, kids, whoever kept saying once you get used to it you may prefer it.

So I ordered an S Plaid and decided to not be an old man yells at cloud and instead just try it. Yeah at first it was odd, now though even if they offered me a free wheel swap I'd say no. I prefer the yoke, I prefer no stalks, I prefer the auto shifting and on screen shifting, I prefer the clean look and setup and won't go back, older setups fell clunky to me. Let's face it, older folk are typically extremely resistant to change so it is what it is, but sometimes you have to try something for a while before really learning about it. Car reviewers that have a car for mere hours will never like it so they predictably crap on it. Ask actual owners about it though, not saying you won't get some that still prefer a wheel but you may be surprised at how many (like me) now prefer it.

It's actually why I've also stopped watching all legacy auto related channels on YouTube, their approach and thinking are just to dated and sometimes painful to watch now. I watch mostly ordinary people talking about cars now on YouTube, you get far better and truthful insights that way.

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Hydrogen doesn't have a chance compared to electric for a whole host of reasons far too long to get into here. But other's (that don't have ties/kickbacks to legacy auto) have covered this far better than I could on a forum.

Yep, same BS EV naysayers were saying 20 years ago. So you’re saying there will be no advancements beyond the modern tech that is electricity? Lol. Hopefully we can revisit this conversation in 15-20 years.

The main problem with EVs are people on both sides are fucking insufferable.
I drove Tesla and would own one because there's no feeling like it for speed; Its totally it's own animal.
Don't care if its saving the environment, or if Elon is a psycho, or batteries, or if I'm saving $5 or $100 a month etc etc

Hydrogen is an excellent source of energy, extremely clean burning.

No government subsidies, no government intervention. Let the market decide.

Except it's not. Hydrogen powered cars are dead... I believe both Honda AND Toyota have both announced they are abandoning their hydrogen fuel cell R&D. Why? Because hydrogen is extremely dangerous to transport, store, dispense. Also, the bulk of hydrogen would be generated from fossil fuels which is problematic in that they won't last forever...

Jeff

If you say so.

We don't have to follow anyone.

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You know minus the highly volatile nature of the gas and the extreme danger created when you create it, store it, move it, dispense it... You are correct though, it's extremely clean burning for sure.

There's no free lunch here, except for maybe nuclear fusion but... Yeah... Not there yet. Maybe in our lifetimes, they seem to be rather close. THAT is the free lunch, a limitless power source that produces really no byproduct of waste... Then electric cars are a slam dunk no brainer thing.

Jeff

Yeah it would be cool to revisit it but there's some basics here that make hydrogen a dead end for consumer use:

1) You can't generate your own hydrogen, but you can generate your own electric.
2) Electric has endless miniaturization paths, hydrogen is fixed size and can't get smaller.
3) Hydrogen will always be more expensive to get it to where users can use it be it due to the process of making it, distributing it, storing it, etc...
4) Electric has shared use that benefits people, hydrogen has no such shared use cases.
5) Hydrogen still requires people drive places to fill up, electric doesn't you just recharge at home.
6) Electric can work on smaller transport like bicycles, motor cycles, etc, hydrogen can't.

I don't want to derail but there's lots more, just check on YouTube, lots of good info there. Outside of trucking or perhaps airlines I don't see hydrogen making it, certainly not for typical consumer use.

Umm what??

Toyota just announced a hydrogen ICE with Yamaha yesterday and plan to be completely carbon neutral, meaning no EVs by 2050

Do you not see how well that car is built (structurally, fit and finish is a completely different thing)? A TREE FELL ON IT... Yet it's not seriously damaged to the point where it's occupants would have been at risk... You cannot say that about really any other car built by really any other company.

Jeff

The images you picked actually are a perfect use case for electric. Those bikes are emissions exempt and pollute far more than cars do, so switching to electric bikes would save a metric fuckton of pollution, thanks for that example! Beyond that you know what I mean, we must be able to sell our cars in Europe, China, etc to survive so there is a fiduciary responsibility to follow the latest tech, pollution trends and country requirements. I mean I honestly don't think GM will survive regardless and even Ford is iffy, but if they put their heads in the sand, don't go electric and suddenly can't sell any of their cars in world markets they are 100% doomed.

I was referring to the consumer level cars specifically, sorry I wasn't clear. Honda has canceled the Clarity and Mirai is clearly struggling so my post was half wrong.

I do stand by my claim that hydrogen cars are dead. They just are. The fuel is ridiculously too volatile for any real commercial distribution.

Jeff

We just need element 115

Point missed clearly.

The rest of the world doesn't care.

Except they do because many huge auto markets have enacted legislation signaling the end of gas powered cars. Markets that we need to be in for our auto industry to survive.

China is building coal burning electrical generating plants weekly.

Here:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/China-plans-to-phase-out-conventional-gas-burning-cars-by-2035
https://www.motortrend.com/news/eu-carbon-dioxide-emissions-2035-plan/

I feel you'll agree that we need to be in both of those markets, especially given that China is the worlds largest automotive market. If we don't then competition will happily take our place.

EDIT: I added a picture to show market sizes, that should make the urgency of the matter more clear.
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yes you can...https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

problem is trying to compress it into liquid form and store like propane
the benefit of hydrogen is the ability to use it in a fuel cell (less weight than a battery)

Nobody is going to fault you for driving an electric car ....I'm all for it, but there has to be better solutions for.....
Range
recharge times
the ability to be able to provide heat in case you are stuck on a major interstate in the middle of a winter storm
(heat pumps are very good but they suck the life out of batteries very quickly) and electric heat is just flat out terrible
Battery weight
Battery lifespan
cost to the average consumer vs the cost of operating an ICE

We just are not there yet........... for right now a hybrid is the best solution

and for all Elon has done, he is no saint .....he sold a lot of stock just like Bozo and Gates at the height of the stock market boom so he is no different then the other oligarch's ripping off the American Public.

The Chinese lie routinely, good luck.

Really not sure where you're getting your information but you should find a different source... It's cheaper to operate an EV per mile than gas, range is more than sufficient for the vast majority of users, recharge times are fine and I still do not understand why people cannot grasp charging while you're sleeping, battery life span is an unknown as we have 2012 Model S's that are on their original batteries, the list goes on...

The problem with hydrogen, minus it's extreme volatility, is we get it from existing fossil fuels usually natural gas... While it's clean burning, we only have so much of it on the planet, then what?

Jeff

Gotta love it when your only retort is "yeah well they're lying"... Really? Did you also take your blanket and go home? LOL...

Jeff

...and in a safe affordable manner, just not possible right now.

Well Elon had to sell his stock, it's part of the agreement he has with Tesla where his options have expiry dates so like it or not he must sell his various stock grants by certain dates. But whatever he's just a figurehead, not all that interested in him. I'm more about the tech, the industry and how we can be at the forefront of it all here locally. I don't follow Bill Gates much as he is more into medical related things which I admittedly don't have huge knowledge or interest in although his idea for a new type of nuclear plant was kinda interesting.

Yeah things need to improve for sure but what I like with electric is that there is a very definite path to improvement in affordability, charge rates, sizes, costs etc. It will happen because of that shared use that electric offers, it will benefit phones, laptops, homes, appliances, anything that uses electricity hence there is all manner of brain power attacking the problem since it will have so many practical uses.

EDIT: Regarding this:

That was a design issue that is being fixed, it is a new type of heat pump after all. But in practical use EV's are much safer in such situations as you are less likely to get gas emissions poisoning sitting in a car for hours. But more importantly you can just set your Model 3/Y into "Camp Mode" and it will play a fireplace video on the screen and control the temperature all night long, you can watch YouTube videos where people have camped in their Model 3 or Y in crazy cold conditions and the battery has more than enough juice to last. I linked one such video below, he camped overnight in his Model Y and it used 39% of the battery overnight in -24 Celcius weather, which is -11.2F. Camping in Model 3/Y is actually fairly common and they sell custom beds for both models, but a few heat pump failures of course make for far more worthy clickbait news articles.