Get on google maps, turn on satellite view and scroll over to eastern KY and West Virginia. Behold the massive scars that coal mining has left on Appalachia. You don't see this from the roads, but huge swaths of wilderness are being destroyed.

The waste pond (top center) is as big as the town in the valley...

ky (resized).jpg

I don't have a horse in this race, but it is cool to see how our power is generated in Ontario in real time:

https://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html

Nuclear is producing 24/7 so nighttime is a good time to charge the cars in Ontario.

I could see the Pickering power plant out my bedroom window growing up.

Totally agree with this, the changes in India and China were amazing. What are they doing to fix the climate? Nothing... No $ to fix it.
..

https://www.businessinsider.com/cargo-ship-felicity-ace-fire-electric-vehicle-batteries-luxury-cars-2022-2

thats ok if you live in southern states but up here in the north not so much .....I have two solar systems and we have many days without sun and after many days you have to hook up a generator.. a solar panel has to be perfectly perpendicular to the sun for max output you need the sun's UV rays to knock those electrons loose, so it's not as reliable here as the grid. It's not there yet ....Second of all Tesla has not converted to LFP batteries yet, He is still using lithium Ion which can violently explode if something goes wrong with the charge controller and cause a fire that is damn hard to put out. No way in hell I'm hanging one of those on my house.

Not really- greenies did.

Hybrid drivetrains are great but greenies pushed into law "zero emissions vehicles" which leaves them ass out.

Hybrid drivetrains are the best of both worlds.

Just to clarify, I was not accusing or even implying my comments apply to all EV owners/enthusiasts, just the obnoxious ones. I would also say the same about the obnoxious gas engine owners/enthusiasts. I just think everyone can enjoy the technologies and be open minded when discussing the benefits and disadvantages of each without passing moral judgment on someone that doesn't share the same opinion.

I agree with you ....when I look at how long my 3cyl Kubota tractor can run .....all day on less then 5 gal of deisel to me that would be the goto option ....if it were not so efficient then why do they use it on railway engines which weigh thousands of pounds

diesel gen at constant rpm ,electric motor, best of both worlds

For sure, totally agree.

I figure that both sides of the collection and storage parts will get far more efficient as time goes on such that solar (or whatever collection method) of the future will gather far more energy per unit time than we currently can and likewise batteries (or whatever storage method) of the future can will be able to store far more energy per unit space than we currently can. Kinda like with early computing devices that could only get 2 to 3 hours of battery life whereas nowadays you have tablets that can go for many days without needing to be charged, hopefully the same can happen with home solar/battery in places with less sun.

As far as batteries exploding, I mean that can happen with any battery we use in our phones, computers, etc. Personally I'd be more worried about a cheapo knock off brand battery in a phone or laptop that's sitting on a flammable bed cushion inside my house catching fire than a wall mounted home battery but that's just me.

you need to watch the actual legitimate battery overcharging testing video's on you tube on lithium Ion vs AGM vs LiFePo 4 ..... It might just change your perspective. Something goes wrong in the BMS and your system is toast. Storage has always been the problem with trying to replace the grid ...hell even the grid pumps water up to a dam in many places and releases the water to run generators at night along with many other stratigies to store power. The best way to fix the grid would be to split it up, many smaller generation plants run by molten Salt reactors which use the byproducts of current Nuke reactors as a way to generate power and get rid of some of the current waste byproducts. I really don't see self sufficent houses in the next 50 years. Even current off grid house will have trade offs ....you can't run a dryer an oven a refridgerator freezer and microwave all at the same time.

Don't you need a 220 line for in home charging stations today?

Nope, you can charge right off a standard 120v outlet. When I first got my Model 3 Performance I used the included 120v cable just to see how it would work. I was getting 6 miles/hr charge rate which when you remember that you plug it in overnight means for me it was always adding 60+ miles every night, which is more than most people commute in a day.

Speaking about EVs, have any of you driven a Lucid Air? I’m still a Jeep driver and loving it; but am curious if any if our Pinside brethren have had any experience with this EV?

Well don’t lump everyone into 30 miles or less commute to work….I can tell you for a fact MANY people commute 30+ miles one way for work….and you never know when you are gonna be stuck in traffic for over an hour…..on top of the actual mileage you have to drive. That’s almost once a week on a major freeway in the Houston area. So range is a huge issue for EV’s. Plus many people rely on driving besides truckers and average 100-200 miles a day to do their jobs.

Sure, but then you just pony up $1500 for a 240v line and a fast charger. If you’re doing constant long-haul road trips I’d still lean toward a conventional or hybrid, but modern electrics seem fine for most use cases.

Ram came up with a great package for the hemi and V6 trucks that had an small battery pack and electric assist motor for when you need bursts of torque.

Great idea but doesn't seem to be getting any traction.

I'd have no problem driving a pentastar V6 in a full size Ram with that setup. Adds 90 ft/lbs torque to the V6, 130 to the Hemi.

Boosts the MPG too.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/trucks/a23306626/ram-1500-etorque/

I charge my plaid on 120v. Totally works out for me. 6 miles/hr

Loved it when William Jeanes named the Trabant the Best car in their Ten Best issue many years ago.

I think that EE video addressed this. It maters, but there is a break even point where the new EV car will have a larger impact than the old gas car.

Yeah, my wife drives about 30-ish miles a day for work (she's the primary driver, because like @crazylevi, we're a city family, I mainly just drive to pick my daughter up from daycare). When we were just charging on 120v, those days, the car is charged by the next day when she leaves for work. When we visit family in the suburbs, it would sometimes be a few days before we hit full charge, with my wife's normal driving included, but we never had a point where we needed to use a supercharger on anything but a longer road trip.

And that’s the point…an EV does not fit everyone needs regarding mileage. And if you take long road trips so much for getting 600-800 miles in a day. When I hit the road I don’t have time to wait for charging. 10 min and I can gas up/pee and back on the road. I got places to be, people to do, and things to see.

There are plenty of people that easily put 100-200 miles a day in the city….I can see it now telling the wife, client or whoever sorry I am an hour late but I had to charge my car. That’s gonna be the next late for work excuse….

Just get a 240v charger at home then and don't worry about mileage, it's really that easy. On trips I need to take breaks to eat, hit the restroom or whatever so that's when I charge up as superchargers are everywhere, so there zero downtime for me as I'd be stopping anyways. Even then it's only 15 to 20 minutes to charge up, the superchargers are really fast. Compare that to having a gas car where you have to regularly waste time going to fill up, have you ever added up how much time you waste doing that over the course of a year? Not to mention no more gas anxiety of having to go somewhere in a hurry and realizing your car doesn't have enough gas, now you have to scramble to fill up. Ugh I don't miss any of that, with an EV your car is always full all the time every day, it's brilliant. I mean seriously if you have places to be and things to see why would you want to waste so much time every year running back and forth to a gas station? Isn't that a colossal waste of your time?

EDIT: Btw you can do 1000 miles in a day in a Tesla, there's Youtube videos showing it, it's not that hard with super chargers being basically everywhere. But I have to imagine not many people can pound through that many miles in one day, I sure couldn't.

I maybe should put this in the unpopular thread but the Mustang EV is a much nicer vehicle than the model X

Looks are subjective, nothing wrong with that. I'm not a fan of GM/Ford EV's as they are largely foreign made, nothing implicitly wrong with that but I'm one of those that prefers buying local whenever possible to support local industry. With Tesla making the most American made cars out there along with supporting our manufacturing, AI, robotics, energy, etc industries they are the one I want to support, but I'm weird like that. Honestly though I find the decision easy to make as legacy auto EV's to me are just too far behind currently on the various aspects that matter to me.

It’s more than looks, interiors on Tesla’s are hideous. It’s just a better vehicle. Have you driven both?

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36877450/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-ev-of-the-year/

Fast now, because your the only swinging dick in line. We don't have to capabilities for every swinging dick in line right now, but the gov will fix that.

I haven't driven one but I've been in them along with others like the Taycan, etc, cuz you see them all around here. I don't like the interiors of most legacy EV's, to me they look like tweaked 90's interiors, they just look too dated but that's me. Same with the Taycan for example, I personally hate the interior it looks dated. I don't mind the Ionic 5 as they are going for a retro look so in that case going retro works. I love the interiors on the refreshed Tesla's, again just my preference, to me they look gorgeous and well put together. But that's why we have choices, you do you I do me. I never bothered to drive any of the other brands EV's as they are all just too slow for me. I'm a torque junkie, can never have enough torque so again to me, legacy auto EV's are just too slow and never a consideration even if just for that but there's lots of other reasons.

I’ve driven them both, just ordered a Bronco

Fix it at our expense on top of that.

The new Bronco looks cool, can't deny that!

They’re closing orders for 22’s in March, mine will be about a year before I get it

I look at it this way, we have two options:

1) We get on board with new technology, make it a priority to electrify and build our industry here and in turn put our money back into the USA.
2) We stall, delay, and stick to old technology. The rest of the world then blows past us in the left lane, we fall behind then we are shoveling money abroad buying their tech.

I probably can't go much further than that without getting political so I'll stop there. But rest assured the world is plowing forward, whether or not we lead or follow is up to us.

my job is 46.2 miles away, my wife's is about 18, to visit her kid is 80. adding 6 miles per hour would not work.
220V 30 40 50 amp depending on your daily use.
some older homes, like my wife's kid, would need a new load center and maybe the feed line to the house.

When I had a 16Kwh home generator install I had to upgrade the gas meter to handle the increased demand.

We did install a 240v line, I had the guy run 50 amp cable to a 240v outlet in the garage. Then we just attached a 240v plug to the charger cable and it plugs in. That way if we moved we can just unplug the charger and take it with us. The mistake I made was telling him to use 50 amp cable to run the line which I thought was enough because the charger only goes up to 48amp max. What I didn't realize was to be to code you can only use 80% of the cable's max ability, so to get 48amp current to the charger I needed to have run 60 amp cable. Hence I now run the charger at 40amp instead of 48 amp

I still tested both settings and at 40amp setting the Model 3 Performance was getting 36 miles/hr charge rate, at 48 amp I think it was 46 miles/hr (been a while). I'm still leaving it at 40amp setting anyways just to be safe.

pasted_image (resized).png

EV owners what to you pay for electricity? and what does it work out to per mile?

Musketeers did not answer, or said they charge for free at work.
Also what is the cost per mile at public chargers? I am told the rates vary greatly from peak to off peak times.

Getting on board now is like trading in your new 5G phone for the first IPhone….no infrastructure exists to support it in mass use. Why would I down grade?

And you keep mentioning this thing about having to stop at a gas station….was that an issue for you? I have never run out of gas. Gas stations are kind of like Reese’s peanut butter cups…they are everywhere. I don’t have to go out of my way to find one to get gas but I would have to go out of my way to find a charging station. That will change but we ain’t there yet and that WOULD be an inconvenience.

EV’s are not gonna be the end all of technology….finding sustainable clean energy is the real issue. A new car is not gonna revolutionize everything.

Is my tv/internet/phone not gonna work because EV’s are slowly being adopted…..Seem to be working fine to me. But yeah I do get your point that it is important to keep up with technology. Doesn’t mean we should be making phones and TV in the US to show we can keep up with technology? There are some things we don’t need to do.

Overnight, it's .07 per kWH. Car gets around 2.8 miles per kWH. So, it's around $0.025, or round it up to $0.03 per mile. Where as my pickup comes in at $0.23 per mile (and gas is going up, so it's going to get even more expensive).

Even if we charge in the middle of the day it's one .12 per kWH, $0.042 per mile.

Where I am in theory it's 19 cents per kWh, I think we have the most expensive electric in the nation, but we have solar panels which are really cheap and easy to get here so for us the sun fills up our cars. In theory means it's free...but not really, because we could have sold that kWh back on the grid for I think it's 4.6 cents/kWh, hence strictly speaking we're paying 4.6 cents per kWh to fill the cars even though we have solar panels due to the "opportunity cost" as it were. Of course you could try and add the cost of the solar panels to the equation but they are only used a small fraction of the time on fueling the cars, 98%+ percent of the time they are powering everything else or earning us money on the grid.

The last year of my Model 3 Performance before I returned it I used 4339 kWh in total to go 8531 miles. Doing the math:

4339 kWh * 4.6 cents/kWh = $199.59
$199.59 / 8531 miles = 2.3 cents/mile

Now bear in mind I'm a lead foot, I would floor that car constantly because I love torque. Most others driving my car would have seen *much* better consumption numbers, and of course if you bought the long range Model 3 you would have also seen improved consumption as well. So view mine as a worse case example.

EDIT: Bear in mind that's purely energy costs. On an EV you don't need to do brake changes, oil changes, smog tests, etc so it has many other cost per miles advantages that aren't immediately apparent until you own one. Once you add those in the cost per mile advantage of an EV is even better.

The superchargers also vary per region but they cost waaaaay more than charging at home. All that info is right on the screen on any Tesla, so you can pick any charge station and view things like costs, free stalls, amenities, etc. I attached a pic of one that is near me.
pasted_image (resized).png

Yeah, this was the most annoying aspect of owning a gas car. Very common for me was being late for a video shoot, loading the car, firing it up and seeing I need gas. Then I'd have to haul ass to a gas station, hope there's no wait, fill up and head to the shoot. Your mileage may vary, but for me that was a very regular and extremely annoying occurrence. Now the only time I stop at a gas station is to buy a Kit Kat.

Good and interesting thread..........Great points both ways,Still solidly a gas burner for me............but I could really do my commute in a EV...Hurts to say that,Lol It seems like a Big City thing with people that make more than average $$$ Alot of people are just scraping by.

Yeah let's push this along with other agendas that are more politically motivated than actually working for the constituents that voted you in there to speak for the people.Man everything is skyrocketing in price with this push for "Clean Energy" Really working well ://

Clean Energy in the USA means lining the pockets of those we import from and us being at the mercy and cost of the imports......... which we can supply ourselves as the most powerful nation in the world..............Well we used to be that....sad to see this current state of affairs.

I am just a Old School guy who grew up here out west in Colorado - Open Spaces - still goes to the mountains,camping,fishing,a snowboard trip maybe twice a year,dirt roads etc. etc. Just have no interest,need or care for these EV vehicles.

My grand parents and great grand parents were all rural dirt farmers and dairy farmers and I currently have a couple acquaintences that still farm.Rural America wants tractors and side by side mules and ATV's......none of them are EV.

I still have a sister and a couple nieces who live in the sticks and have no internet thru the infrastructure or cell reception in northern rural Idaho without driving about 20 miles - in their diesel truck ,They do however as of last year got satellite internet and TV service.

They have never seen a Tesla and when I said the name Elon Musk, they thought it was like some crazy name for a spaceman, Lol true story

Better go play a couple games on my Munsters machine...........Powered by Dragula, Wink Wink Have a great night - Kirk

Nitro Power (resized).png

does that include the distribution charge....Where I live it's .07 per Kwh but at the same time there is a .07 distribution charge so in actuallity it's really .14 cents per Kwh. just wondering if CA is the same

Well not them I guess But China is taking this very seriously (unlike us) and unfortunately will almost certainly beat us. Now we will have to wait and see which of our companies they will bankrupt in the coming years. What I'm wondering though is will Europe overtake us as well. I don't think they are organized enough to do so, but places like Germany really support their homegrown efforts unlike us where we try our best to kill them off, so we'll have to wait and see what happens.

I'm with you 100 percent there a while back China was going all over the world buying all the raw materials they could get their hands on to make batteries and solar panels so right now they are the ones holding the cards. Even if the US wanted to manufacture green energy products we would have a hard time. Don't get me wrong I am all for making a change but when you do the economics for ICE vs EV, the cost of the EV, the range problems and cold climate problems don't add up for the average guy. I used to have to drive 100 miles a day to get to work and back so I bought a car that I still have that gets 34mpg. Until the figures work for the average american change will be hard fought. I have wanted an EV for a long time but the numbers don't add up for me and I would guess they wouldn't make sense for a lot of people.

but places like Germany really support their homegrown efforts unlike us where we try our best to kill them off, so we'll have to wait and see what happens.

As they should but I have been all over Asia, Central and South America. They don't drive cars they drive motorbikes. They can't even afford central air because it costs so much for electricity, but the "rest" of the world is moving forward. Elon and Bill to the rescue.

Bill?

Gates...

Screenshot_20220222-225429_Google (resized).jpg

Ok color me confused, but, umm, what does he have to do with any of this? As far as I know he's mostly involved with infectious diseases and such since retiring from tech life.

Is this a "Where's Waldo" thing? Find Bill Gates peeping from the bushes or something?