Hey now, that's the price of freedum!

Or the quality of the highways. eg. Pa. has one of the highest gas taxes and the roads are the shittiest.

This guy's presentation is pretty flawed.

The premise of 'count production in too' is fine enough, but his comparison and justification is unsubstantiated.

1) He has zero citations for his co2 production estimates (for timing or bias)
2) you know he's playing loose with numbers when everything is a convenient linear line
3) you know he's fubbing numbers when somehow a hybrid, which has essentially a full car AND a reasonable sized battery is somehow the same co2 production footprint as a gas car?
4) If you want to include 'outside the box' co2 measuring, you can't count just manufacturing, but you should include distribution and production. A cost that will vary SIGNIFICANTLY depending on where you are.. so again, you can't have just pretty flat lines and nice y axis constants
5) His horse analogy and leading into the idea that there was a 'cycle' that didn't lead to 'adding' but the car swap did is disingenuous. The horse period worked not because of a closed loop, but because the co2 output was not outpacing the environment's ability to convert it... not because horses eat grass. The cycle logic fails because 'more horses lead to more co2 lead to more grass' is not what actually happens. The loop is false. Which is why his comparison to swapping to cars is flawed as well. There is no broken loop, because there was no loop prior. The issue is not a loop, the issue is about the output rate exceeding the absorption rate. The real 'cycle' his graphic would illustrate is the idea of output vs input... and guess what.. there is still input (grasses) in the car side of his story.. it's just not enough to offset the higher output.
6) He skews the line to 400m range without really quantifying that as the real need -- because hey, guess what, makes the charts work for me...

Hybrids are the worst of both worlds - in both production and usage.

If the guy was so hard-on about battery production being this unseen cost and it's the devil... why doesn't he advocate for fuel cells.. but instead he thinks hybrids are the 'out' worth mentioning? NAHHHHHH

With all the gas tax those roads in the different states we live should soon be the smoothest that they have been since they were first built. Indy has had some bad ones where the news reports some unlucky drivers have gone multi flats. Just glad it wasn't me.

Why are you wasting your time on a pinball forum, you should be doing TED Talks!

Based on what i know of TED Talks they vet all info that the presenters speak to so they arent making false claims or pushing misinformation. But i dont know for sure, pretty much anything i say ever is proven wrong by forum keyboard warriors, i should probably stop wasting the earths oxygen and vanish.

You have to remember, a lot of the gas tax money goes towards public transportation, just like bridge tolls.

I just looked it up. You wouldn't believe where it goes:

"Gas tax revenue and motor license fees bring in $4.5 billion, but only $2.7 billion goes to roads and bridges. The rest goes to Pennsylvania State Police, Driver & Vehicle Services and the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

"If you sum all those up, it's roughly about 40% of the gas tax is going to those other agencies or outside of the department, if you will," Batula said.

So why is that money being diverted?

"The answer to that is that's what's in the law," Batula said.

Bob Latham is with Associated Pennsylvania Constructors, which represents 400 companies that work in the state's road and bridge industry. He said gas tax money has been diverted for years.

"Four or five, at least, gubernatorial administrations and a number of Pennsylvania legislators started siphoning off money from the motor license fund to the state police back in the 1990s," he said. 

At one point in 2017, $800 million from the gas tax went to state police.

Latham said state police need the money but it shouldn't come from the gas tax." - Batula referenced here is PennDOT acting Executive Deputy Secretary.

There is another thing that will have to be fixed. Gax taxes, generally, fund the roads. With EVs and hybrids, those funds will drop.

Having worked for the state here and dealing with state money remember this one thing. The politicians will find a way to pull in those EVs. Hybrids use gas but not as much so I am not sure how they will do that. Just give it time.

Apparently, making safe, reliable batteries is hard....

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/ford-issues-stop-sale-mustang-mach-e-recall.html

Yeah, I'd fix that. No new tech doesn't come without teething problems, just as long as nobody is getting hurt while those bugs are ironed out.

Ghost braking in a tezla has killed one driver already. It was posted here some time ago, with link to the news article.
Another issue reported was the passengers being trapped inside after power failure and battery fire.

I agree. It's just that there seems to be a lot of it lately.

Break the window? What is especially egregious with Tesla is the report that accidents where Autopilot was automatically turned off just prior to impact were not counted as Autopilot Related Accidents.

"The new data set stems from a federal order last summer requiring automakers to report crashes involving driver assistance to assess whether the technology presented safety risks. Tesla‘s vehicles have been found to shut off the advanced driver-assistance system, Autopilot, around one second before impact, according to the regulators.

The NHTSA order required manufacturers to disclose crashes where the software was in use within 30 seconds of the crash, in part to mitigate the concern that manufacturers would hide crashes by claiming the software wasn’t in use at the time of the impact."

Very sad, but compared with ICE deaths from various flaws over the years, not quite the same thing. Granted, ICEs have had a lot more time to develop problems.

There are also a lot more internal combustion engine cares than EVs. The percentage of deaths may be lower than EVs that have developed their own problems in a shorter time.

Yup. My wife had a certified pre owned 2015 Malibu that had a very dangerous issue that GM never recalled. On occasion and only on the highway at speeds over 70mph would the steering wheel seize up and make it extremely difficult to even turn it a bit. GM never issued a recall despite hundreds of customer complaints and multiple deaths from the issue.

Well, we don't have electic Airplanes, but there's electric airships coming soon:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/this-european-airline-just-ordered-a-fleet-of-airships/ar-AAYxX7T?ocid=uxbndlbing

Interesting! Key quote from the article: "The aircraft is fondly know as 'the flying bum.' "

I love it! The flying bums!

It's no worse than the roof on the new Toyota Supra though.

These are TED talks - not actual scientific presentations. TED talks are about IDEAS and stimulating thought -- not peer reviewed publication. Their priority is to be engaging.

This isn't even a TED presentation at the annual conference - this is a TEDx presentation.. aka from an independent event that is affiliated and allows their content to be published with TED's license and principles.

So like many things.. vet the material, not just look at the header.

The question really is only if they do 'usage' based taxes or value based... or both.

They could easily require taxes paid based on your milage (annual inspections - just like is already done for safety or emissions in many places) and they can levy more value taxes annually too.

You are correct - they will find a way to collect.. it's just a question of what path they take.

The trick is the gas tax is already regressive - it punishes the people who need to drive the most. Lower class, middle class. Whatever they find, I hope it's a little more evenly distributed.

Look what happened to this EV hater . . .
meme (resized).jpg

Ok that's actually pretty funny

Happy to see we can all have a sense of humor about things, regardless of the side of the EV/ICE fence we are on.

Not actually the stereotype that comes to mind when I think of EV owners, but has to be a little truth to it.

50+ MPG in a Jeep 4XE should make an EV believer out of anybody...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tesla-cybertruck/page/19#post-6982301

Well, I don't have man bun or man purse, and I only charge at home overnight so I never have to charge for "an hour" out in the world...but it was still funny

Any tax is regressive when you take the mindset that 'those that can't afford it but still have to pay it...' - sales tax.. anything.

Yes and no. Any tax that targets those who have less, more than those who have more, is regressive. The world's not perfect. For instance, taxing unearned income less than earned income is extremely regressive. It's dumb, but there it is. The mindset is balanced taxes, not the strawman you are making up. I think most people would agree?

A usage based tax is not 'targeting those who have less' - it by definition targets those who use the service.

Any tax that isn't scaled on income will ultimately get labeled 'regressive' by someone because $10 from a poor person is a higher burden than $10 from a rich person.

I feel like I half agree with you here. But as to the first, a usage based tax for things that are necessities, like driving to work, is a bad idea. Defining a regressive tax - "they take a higher percentage of income on the poor than on high-income earners. Taxes on most consumer goods, sales, gas, and Social Security payroll are examples of regressive taxes." I'm referring to this kind of thing. Usage based taxes for things like yacht slipways, sure.

Price of a barrel of oil in 2014: 120.45
Today: 117.49

Gas was 2 dollars cheaper 2014

I was at Sam's Club today cars were lined up 5 deep in each line past the pump. The local price difference $.25 less than the name brands.

You have to also account for the cost of other things going up (cost to ship, cost for energy to produce gas from oil, wages).
Still feel like were being gouged though.

So just tax the "rich" cause its worked out so well in the past. Just do some research on yacht luxury taxes in the 80's

… not that the recession at the end of the 80z had anything to do with it…

Isn’t it funny how hotels can start charging resort fees that are often near 25% of the room rate and the hotel industry doesn’t collapse… yet a 10% luxury tax on completely unnecessary goods supposedly crushed the industry?

Maybe the lesson learned is don’t let people avoid taxes by going offshore…

Can’t beat Sams and Costco for gas. Similar to what you said Costco is $.25 - $.30 less per gallon then elsewhere. I also use a Costco credit card which gets ya 4% back on gas.

From the 40s-70s, which many people still consider a golden age for the American worker in terms of wages and job security, income tax rates for top earners were astronomical by today’s standards. As in 70-90% for the very top tier. Given today’s global economy you couldn’t just snap those rates back into place. But the US seems to have muddled through OK with them for decades so I’m not convinced that approach to taxation is inherently catastrophic.

The highest tax rate during our most prosperous middle class, in the 50s-60s, was 91%. Yes it works out very well

We should definitely be taxing the rich way more, yes. Society has to decide if we want to foster inequality or let people conspire to chase infinite gains forever, all while directly influencing and guiding politics and law to ensure they can chase infinite gains forever.
There are way more things to care about than rich people worried they can't afford a boathouse at their third property. Unfortunately the rest of the world has to cower in fear of ther indignant rage over taxes because that's power we've handed them while begging for their scraps.

Speculators!

This was I think 2008 just after the market crashed hard who bought up Ford stock as they didn't take any government help and bought it for $4-$5 I think and sold it a few days later and made a good chuck of change. Did it again a few days later and made another good chuck of it. I think if I can remember correctly he said it was like $20,000-$30,000. Buy he wasn't crazy enough to invest in oil.

You have to work with the tax rules in your country to try and lower your taxable income. There isn't some magic out there just for the rich. I have seen rich people get hit hard too with their yearly tax returns. You have to create within the tax law deductions or other ways so yours will be lowered or maybe with some good CPA work even a negative amount.

Would reopening the Keystone Pipeline project help?

No - and both of the last two administrations found that to be true. You can look it up, but both found it wouldn’t help. It’s a myth that gets repeated

I just did a two day road trip from Texas to California.

Screen Shot 2022-06-19 at 8.43.30 PM.png

HUGE MOPAR fan here, love my HEMI

A41B442E-D8AB-4CCB-8D62-A0F51BE6467A (resized).jpeg

It couldn't hurt! Instead, this admin. does nothing.

This is a falsehood that’s already been debunked here. The last two administrations both found it would make no difference. Remember that gas prices are a worldwide issue, and there isn’t much any admin in the US can do about it.

Until supply is increased to the point that the market stops panicking gas prices are going to remain high. Russia is obviously going to resist any efforts by members of OPEC to bump supply for the foreseeable future.

I really feel for people who have commutes and burn a chunk of gas on a day-to-day basis. I’m dreading filling the F150, but given that I’m doing it to go pick up my GZ Premium 4 hours away I’ll suck it up. Food for thought though - my wife hasn’t pumped gas in over 4 years since we got the Tesla, and with 26 panels on the roof of the house we don’t have much of an electricity bill (grid tied with net-metering). I totally understand when people argue that both of those things are a luxury that most can’t afford - it’s true, they are expensive, and we are very fortunate to be able to afford them. Just don’t give me that argument if you dropped 15k on TS4