Yes we need more nuke power but we don't need old-school gigantic plants. We need smaller systems like this: https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/small-modular-reactors.aspx

I'm here on Pinside for pinball talk and not this. Now off to the "drain topic" button.

Well, that’s why it’s off topic.

Fear…you will always have people that are afraid of “what could happen”. Hard to overcome for a large group. I have 100% confidence reactors can be safe. I believe you are correct that we have better ways to deal with waste. It may be the better option for now but long term new technology can hopefully find an even safer sustainable solution.

I'm a Tesla owner and I'm an engineer who works in upstream oil and gas.

First off... batteries are 99% recyclable, but there just aren't facilities made YET.... but as the need increases the facilities will be made so that's a non-issue.

Complaints about lithium mining is also ridiculous. Yes these do require mining and can create some big pits, but it is absolutely nothing compared to the mining that is done for other substances such as Coal or even common construction material like cement. Sorry, a 100 acre hole in the ground is not an environmental disaster.

In terms of the fact that most energy still is created from fossil fuels... yes, that is true, but the mix is constantly increasing to more renewables such as nuclear, solar and wind, and it will continue to do so. But the power plants have very strict emission standards and are very efficient in the conversion of hydrocarbons to electricity. Also the pollution that is caused by these plants is often away from city centers, reducing smog in big cities.

But here's the environmental bad about EV's. They are HEAVY... which means extra wear on roads/tires etc. There are losses throughout the electrical cycle including getting the electricity to the charging point, converting to DC and the actual charging of the battery, not to mention the electricity needed to heat the batteries on cold days, and the huge amount of electricity needed to heat/cool the cabin.

But in the end, I didn't buy my EV for the environment... I did it because I'm a car guy and it's a blast to drive. I test drove a model X when it first came out, and it was by far the best vehicle I had ever driven. Instant torque, quiet ride, never having to go to the gas pump etc etc etc. So last year a bit the bullet and bought a used one, and I plan to keep it for a long time.

For the record, I am neutral on EV

If I had short commute and did no hauling I'd consider one. A vehicle is a tool to fit particular need and one size doesn't fit all.

I like the honest answer from Scorch…bought an EV because you like it. Nothing wrong with that.

Now we have to mine more lithium, more concrete materials to build better roads, more coal to make more power so we can enjoy more EV’s….it’s a vicious cycle and this reminds me of an old commercial…..

I do coke so I can work longer
So I can make more money
To do more coke…so I can work longer……

Electricity is a hell of a drug LOL! We are all addicted to it for sure.

I've always liked watching Engineering Explained videos and he usually does a good job explaining his points. This one I watched quite a while ago which I thought was particularly interesting.

ummm, I don't see a whole lotta Hate here.

I'm not a green guy, I Originally thought these ev's would be pusssy cars and trucks..they are not, torky and fast and fun to drive.

Price has to get in line, it will eventually, I worry that by that time my driving skillset may have taken a hit.

One of my favorite quotes from the book Jurassic Park.

Screenshot_20220222-112316-915 (resized).png

Lowest carbon footprint car is the one you already drive. Want a shiny new EV as a toy? Knock yourself out, but don't pretend you're saving the environment. The combined manufacturing waste/pollution of everything that goes into a new car more than offsets any gain in MPGe.

Want to save the planet? Drive less, get a small efficient used car, and drive it until the wheels fall off.

Another EV owner, who's willing to be a punching bag:

After having a kid, we realized we needed a second car, and one with AWD, to get through our alley in winter. We weren't planning on getting a Tesla, but with all the chip shortages hurting supplies and driving up prices, it made the economics of getting a Model Y much more reasonable. It was a nicer car that ended up being less than we thought it was going to be (and we splurged for the full self driving, which, as a tech guy, is REALLY cool to me, especially after getting into the beta). We ended up taking delivery about six months ago.

I won't lie, having an electric car is nice. For day to day, you don't have to worry about charging at all. You plug it in and don't need to worry about it, even before we got our fast charger installed (my dad's an electrician, means the work just cost us parts but we needed to wait a few months for his schedule to free up). We also drive cross country a fair but, but with a toddler, we've been needing to make longer and more frequently stops anyway, and the superchargers pretty much line up nicely with that, but ymmv.

As far as environmental impact goes, I would say it's important-ish, but not our primary driver. But I think that Engineering Explained video sums up my views on it: not perfect, but a reasonable bit better than the alternative. I don't think everyone needs to rush out and buy an EV, in a lot of use cases it doesn't even make sense, but having a larger percentage of new vehicles produced be EVs will have a positive impact.

I'm in the Northeast. Solar prices have come way down, efficiency much improved, tax credits are attractive - - We're putting solar up later this year.

Grid tied - excess energy will charge the Powerwall and be banked spring, summer and fall to cover winter snow time. We have the money to spend, might as well try to make a difference. Fossil fuels will only get more expensive and used as political weapons.

An EV will probably our next car purchase. We don't even drive that much these days. Probably be able to charge up with the solar panels. Only thing holding us back from installing more panels is the transformer on the pole. If they ever get around these parts to upgrade the transformers, we'll add more panels.

Nothing against ev. I just hate that tax dollars go to help people buy luxury cars and the push to make all cars ev. I'm 100% for choice.

I drive a 2002 camry that i purchased 10 years ago. I have doubts that any ev will equal its long term reliability and low maintenace costs. For me, the best car has the lowest cost per mile. Until the costs come down and there is an affordable and easy way to replace the battery, I'll pass. There seems to be after maket battery options for the prius...all ev's need this.

Current and next-gen EV batteries already last at least as long as a combustion engine. If you are worried about replacing batteries, you should also worry about replacing the engine on a brand new car.

One guy already blew up his 2013 Tesla when it needed a $23,000 battery pack.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/26/22853573/tesla-model-s-explosion-repair-bill

also see-

https://www.inverse.com/innovation/tesla-battery-life-replacement-cost

I have seen gas engines go well over 500,000 miles without breaking a sweat, Toyota in particular.

We've been driving Tesla's for some years now and for us the huge "holy cow" moment was when one day someone with a gas car parked it in our garage. I went in there afterwards to grab something and when I did I was absolutely shocked by the intense stench. In the past I'd never notice it, I guess like your local pothead that does weed all day is nose blind to the fact that he stinks of weed yet others can smell it easily. Similar case here to where the stench from a gas car in our garage is now unbearable to where I had to open both the garage door and side door to get the fumes out.

The "holy cow" moment for us was realizing that for decades we just inhaled this stench all the time, day in, day out, over and over again year after year. Regardless of what the environmental argument may be and beyond the many benefits electric cars offer, that incident alone was enough for us to never look back and gas cars are invisible to us now when car shopping.

If everyone is honest, I don't think anyone "hates" EVs. What many hate is the pretentious, self-righteous, uneducated owners/supporters who project a moral judgement on those who don't have the same mostly illogical fanaticism about them as they do.

You can find endless cases showing people being ripped off by gas engine issues, just because one person blows up a Tesla for hits and traffic (which they spectacularly succeeded at) doesn't mean anything. It's like the old nonsense of electric vehicle fires when gas cars per capita catch on fire far more often.

Aside from that I have no idea why people put Toyota on a pedestal. We had a Toyota and it spent more time at the shop than all our other cars we ever owned combined. It wasn't due to things outright breaking, but because they had so many endless recalls on the damn thing, not to mention they kept taking car payments from our account long after the car was paid off, what a pain in the ass it was to stop that. I'm equally bewildered when people talk about German engineering when I literally don't know anyone with a German car (Mercedes, Audi, etc) that hasn't had endless problems with it.

Meanwhile my previous car a Tesla Model 3 Performance never needed a single thing done to it. It just worked, day in, day out.

It goes both ways really, auto purists are an obnoxious bunch.

From an economic standpoint, it doesn't make much sense yet in Michigan. Right off the top, you'll have to pay an extra $140 ev penalty on top of your regular registration based on MSRP every year. That's the equivalent of a lot of gas right there. Secondly, public charging is more expensive than the equivalent amount of energy in gas right now, as there's no competition. And at home, unless you're off the grid, you're beholden to your public utility company that has a monopoly and then asks the state to raise the price whenever they want and are usually granted their wish.

Because as a former auto tech I have seen dozens if not hundreds go 500k without breaking a sweat.

My own son had a $500 Yaris he purchased from Napa that he could not kill with 750k when he sold it.

the batteries alone in the Hummer EV weight almost 3,000 lbs
the whole truck is over 9,000 lbs

I don’t want to lump all EV owners in that group but there are some and boy are they proud of them…so yes there is some of that mentality.

But there are also jackasses with diesels that love to pass you and blow exhaust so thick you can’t see a thing and smile while doing it.

GM is just far behind in that sort of tech so they had to brute force it to make it work. There's no need for it to be that way, Tesla's are getting lighter and will get lighter still with the new 4680 cells. But the other potential reason is because there's a special tax deduction for vehicles weighing more than 6000 pounds which will make that vehicle a tasty buy to some. The old Hummer fell under the same tax deduction.

Maybe someone should look at replacing diesel powered trucks with electric motors if you want to do something about the environment.

The $140 penalty is because an EV owner doesn't pay any gas tax at the pump. Most states are implementing these fees to help cover the highway not being paid. I think that works. And these days $140 is not a lot of gas as you say. Current prices by me today, that's 35 gallons, or 1 fill up of my pickup. Seems rather cheap penalty.

It all depends on where you are, but electricity costs are a lot cheaper then gas. We can choose are supplier, so there's competition. Charing overnight, it's a whole .07 per kWh. We can do a 100 mile trip on my wife's car and it costs $2.33 or take my truck and it costs $20.47.

Maintenance on the EV is also cheaper, change the brake fluid every two years. No more oil changes, trips to the gas station.

And it's a fun car to drive. We did not get an EV to save the planet, not even close, if we are both alive in 20 years, I'd be surprised.

Just drive around a see how many gas stations there are around you and how many people are pumping gas. Now imagine all of those gas stations converted to charging stations. We can't keep the dam electrical grid going when we have a simple thunderstorm. The concept of EV cars are wonderful, but we don't have the grid to support it right now. But don't worry, here comes the government to save you and the earth.

chillme does bring up a point, it seems to me EV owners need to be taxed on their mileage or some percentage of it.

All of that is completely false... You're info is so bad it should come with a disclaimer...

1. EV Batteries last longer than 5 years... Tesla's built in late 2012/early 2013 still have their original batteries and you can google their degradation and it's really not that bad.
2. They are completely recyclable
3. You really want to talk about the environmental impacts of mining versus oil and gas exploration?
4. The environmental impact is directly proportional to the source of your electricity and your complete broad brush strokes on this are again, wrong
5. Tons of studies have been done regarding the fossil fuel use to construct EVs versus the tailpipe emissions from ICE based transportation. You can google this and get all data you want but I get just being ignorant is easier. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

JFC...

Jeff

The work Tesla is doing with EV's, energy generation and energy storage will make the grid a moot point as every home can be an energy power station and storage unit to where we won't need the grid as it exists today. I wouldn't be surprised if one day we can "cut the cord to the grid" like people cut the cord to cable tv today. Of course there are major influencers and lobbyists doing there best to make sure it won't happen, like most recently the local energy companies here in California trying to kill off solar completely but the cat's out of the bag and I still think it will eventually happen. Side bonus, when it does we'll 100% generate and control our own energy here in the USA.

The U.S. was energy independent, then our government changed that.

LOL! We can find studies that show different results. The battery technology is getting better but it ain’t perfect….and know that the waste from those batteries is still hazardous…..it’s just “less hazardous “…..it’s an easy loophole as it’s gotta go some where.

And the big picture is the EV’s aren’t going to fix environmental issues on their own….they can only reduce so much in emissions….until we find an alternative for fossil fuels we are all basically screwed slowly poisoning our selves/earth. That’s a fact I don’t think any of us can argue.

Here's an article from Detroit's "liberal" paper summarizing a study regarding cost to drive an ev vs. ice. It's still more expensive to drive an ev no matter how you slice it. Funny enough, I actually leased a Nissan Leaf in 2013 before these taxes were implemented and with a free charging station about a mile from my house at a AAA Insurance office. It served my needs commuting around town. The range was only 90 miles on a good day, but I enjoyed it for the two years that I had it.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/21/electric-vehicle-charging-cost-vs-gas/6110815001/

Exactly.

Pretty much anybody who is fanatical about their car is insufferable. The way folks turn a hunk of steel and upholstery into a religion, with a decal of Calvin pissing on a car logo as their messiah, is bizarre.

You car people are all nuts! Move to a big city and embrace bikes and mass transit and all your worries will be over!

(the smiley face means you don't have to post those Fox News links...)

Aren't we energy independent now? I just read that we were a net oil exporter in 2020 and 2021, for the first time since the 60s. We made it!

come on man...

I like how fast they can be

Just look at air quality changes during the first covid lockdowns which effectively took all gas powered vehicles of all types off the roads. The air quality improvement in cities world wide was huge! There's some really dramatic differences in places like India where they don't have as strict tail pipe emission controls as we do here, but even in other cities world wide the difference was amazing. We had record high air quality in LA during that time as well.

I don't see your link but I'm not sure I would trust such an article written in "Motor City" who's lively hood depends on building gas engines. Regardless this also has been debunked quite a bit and it's been shown in many comparisons that an electric car is cheaper to own and operate than a gas car. I spreadsheet everything and I charted all costs and expenses of my last gas car a 2018 Camaro ZL1 and my 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance both over three years. Not exactly an equal comparison as the Model 3 blows it away in basically every metric (performance, utility, fun, etc) but regardless it was around ~$8600 more over three years to operate the Camaro.

Now I know anytime I mention something like this someone will say "Yeah but my 1976 Trabant will be far cheaper" and sure it will be but that's not an equivalent comparison.

The tradeoff for no car is 3K a month rent for 500 square feet of living space. I've enjoyed all the fun and excitement that my several trips to NYC have given me. But after a week, I'm clamoring to head back to the midwest, with the space (and the opportunities to drive my car).

Sorry. If you're interested:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/21/electric-vehicle-charging-cost-vs-gas/6110815001/

on S1 E5 (I believe) motormythbusters had some tests using a Nissan Leaf.
First to see if it was as fast with a 25% charge compared to 100% charge, and to the gas powered leaf.
Leaf with 25% charge was slower, they said it was because the voltage was lower.
The gas powered leaf was slightly faster because of the reduced weight.
What they did day is that it weighed 500 pounds more than the gas powered leaf. both had about the same power to weight ratio.
The EV Leaf was faster because, as we all know the power, torque curve of an electric motor.

In the cybertruck forum claims of teslas getting 100% charge in 30 minutes, I looked it up. Well yes under specific conditions: 1) the temperature of the battery had to be in a certain range. 2) Only of of the two charging ports could be in use or the car would only get half the power from the super charger

In searching out if the level 3 supercharger shortens the life or capacity of the battery. My use of fast peak chargers with NiCad batteries from radio controlled models will shorten life aka capacity

https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/supercharging-reduce-tesla-battery-life

A study from the Idaho National Laboratory found that while it’s true that consistent use of DC fast charging (aka Level 3 charging) would cause an EV battery to deteriorate faster, the difference is nothing like as dramatic as we have come to believe. Their test involved 4 Nissan Leaf EVs, two of which were charged twice daily on Level 2 chargers, and 2 that were charged on Level 3 fast DC chargers.

All the cars were tested in the same Arizona climate. After 50,000 miles of driving, the Level-2-charged cars had lost about 23 percent of their capacity, while the Level-3-charged cars had lost around 27 percent. It’s hardly the end of the world. Arizona’s searing heat may also have been responsible for taking some toll on the capacity, meaning that the charging could have had even less impact overall.

3. The Tesla Manuals Also Mention This:
Tesla drivers should be aware of all the important information about their car. In the Tesla Model 3 Owner’s Manual, for example, on page 157, it clearly states:
“The peak charging rate of the Battery may decrease slightly after a large number of DC Fast Charging sessions, such as those at Superchargers.”

I only wish they had actually tested teslas

Yet filling my tank in three minutes has never been an issue. But Tesla owners still took issue with me..

One also complained about the smell of gas & diesel fuels. My first job was at a Mobil station it did not bother me. should I ask him to grow a pair?

Yeah I guess I'm one of those guys that loves cars and will go on a drive without any destination. What can I say I just love driving, especially doing canyon runs around here then ending up chillin at Neptune's Net with a burger. I'm even having my car ceramic coated as we speak. Yeah I'm car guy although I try and keep my insufferability to a minimum

See, it takes only a few seconds to see what utter crap that article is. I'll just list three basic points:

"He got a Porsche Taycan EV in dark blue."
I mean c'mon, that's not an efficient car, hell they even had to put two gears in it to deal with it's inefficiency. I can't stand articles that do that, like take the worst possible case on the one side they want to put down, then the best possible case on the side they want to prop up.

"The study found that the average cost of a Level 1 charger is $600. To install a Level 2 costs $1,600 because it requires hiring an electrician. An L1 charger uses a 120-volt supply of electricity and can take 20 or more hours to charge, whereas an L2 chargers uses 240 volts and can charge in a few hours."

Here in Unaffordable (tm) California it cost me $600 to get a Level 2 charger installed in our garage. No clue where this dude is getting his prices from. And most people can live without an L2 charger since the car will charge overnight.

"The cost to drive a luxury EV, such as a Taycan, Tesla Model S or X or Jaguar I-Pace, is $15.52 to travel 100 miles. That is using mostly commercial chargers. "

This is the most common and craptacular trope that all these articles rely on, and the reason why they are always totally false. First you almost *never* use a commercial charger. Do you charge your phone at a commercial charger? Of course not, you charge it at home 99% of the time unless you are on a trip, exactly the same with an electric car. Even worse is that non Tesla Superchargers cost a fortune on electric, like Electrify America chargers are a complete rip off asking 1.5x to 3x the electric charging cost of a typical Tesla Supercharger.

So what these articles do is take an inefficient electric car (The Porsche Taycan) that also must use the most expensive electric charging network out there (non Tesla super chargers) then lie and say that you have to use those to charge it all the time to conclude that an EV costs more than a gas vehicle. Just utter nonsense.

Here in Michigan, many did not got to work, the government paid them to stay home, and gas prices bottomed out.

Their analysis is flawed, they are basing everything on the cost of the charger. Most manufactures now include a charger with the vehicle. It might not be free but it's bundled into the price of the car. It's still cheaper to run an EV over the long run if you are charging at home. And it's even cheaper if the manufacture has included any free charging.

Covid is an extreme example…shut the world down for 3-6 months and yeah I would expect some areas to clear a little…..that’s not the norm. Things are opening up again all over..

The real test will be 10-15 years from now when 50% of cars on the road could be EV….my guess is 5-10% in my area are currently EV if that. The big unknown is still that, yes 50% of car emissions may be eliminated but that power for the electric still has to be produced…somewhere will see the effects of increased power generation. We already know demand is increasing and there are issues to meet demand….especially in TX which is pretty messed up. I am sure there are other places in just as bad of shape. So growth will have to occur to accommodate this transition.

As a plug-in hybrid owner, I'll smugly say that full EV's suck because of their range limitations and inconvenient plug-in needs for longer trips. I can go 450+ miles and fill up in a couple minutes and keep on going. My plug-in gets me to and from work everyday without any inconvenient trips to the gas pump.
All EV's suck because they lose 25%+ range in the winter. Yes, some place still have winter.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-vehicles-lose-less-range-in-cold-weather-than-others-testing-shows

"According to the data presented in the chart, we can see that Tesla is the only manufacturer with a vehicle—Model X 75D—that did not have a loss of range at low temperatures. The other cars of the company, Model 3 Long Range and Model Y Long Range, show only a 1% loss in range. Model S P100D shows a 4% loss of range. "

Now if you mean non Tesla then sure:

"The worst results were shown by the Chevy Bolt and Chevy Volt, which lost 32% and 31% of the range, respectively. "
"German BMW i3 and VW e-Golf are also at the bottom of the list, losing 24% and 23% of range respectively."

Hate to keep bringing up Tesla over and over but EV's made by legacy auto's are just very far behind, partly because they are just behind on the technology but also by design because they want EV's to appear bad so they can keep selling you gas cars which are their bread and butter due to all their maintenance costs. And also because they know they can make poor EV's and people will use them in arguments to show how bad EV's are, hence helping them sell more gas cars. In other words, they are making you part of their marketing

The best EV I have ever seen was a mini cooper with electric engines in the wheels , two smaller battery packs one for driving and the other for charging while driving and a highly efficient deisel generator for charging the secondary pack. The car got 85mpg and had no range or temperature issues. To me this was the best way to bridge the gap but I would venture to say that the idea was killed by big oil.

Enlighten me? Solar - we have not see the sun in Michigan months.