Quoted from mrm_4:Depends on what cartoon you want to take your data from:
[quoted image]
Well based on those numbers you guys dont need to be so scared of ANY fires!!
(Topic ID: 310586)
Quoted from Ribs:I don’t think Penguin even read that article.
Penguin calculated 153k annually, and called it BS. Another poster gave a range from 117k-174k annually. The article gives an average estimate of 117k in response to a bad estimate of millions. Where’s the checkmate?
When you have MEME's you dont need to be right. Just need to campout over the weekend and furiously post lol
Please provide link to the Reuters source. I'm interested in digging deeper.
Google Foo didn't find anything with those numbers.
For clarity, original post's image is duplicated below
Quoted from altan:Please provide link to the Reuters source. I'm interested in digging deeper.
Google Foo didn't find anything with those numbers.
For clarity, original post's image is duplicated below
[quoted image]
Sure:
www.reuters.com/evdouchebagdataproof
Fort Worth, TX
Quoted from ZNET:Good points. But, you can say the same thing about most any innovation, especially the self-driving vehicle. Certainly, the horizontal tire activation could be limited to extremely slow speeds thereby minimizing tire wear.
Nevertheless, I find the horizontal tire maneuver technology to be impressive. I think that it would save a lot of wasted time searching for parking spaces because otherwise "too-tight" spaces would now be perfectly acceptable.
This particular "innovation" dates back to the 1930's with swing tires/wheels on Park-Cars, and I've seen it on a variety of vehicles over the decades. Nothing new, and I suspect if it had any kind of demand we would all have it in our cars today.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:Has anyone here ever done a break-even analysis on the model 3 performance against a similarly equipped average ICE vehicle? I get that you pay a lot more "up front" for the EV when purchasing, but the cost of ownership (and potential fueling savings, depending on driving behavior) must cause a "break-even" at some point. I wonder when that is.
Break even for purchase price? If you are comparing a model 3 performance and a similarly equipped ice vehicle then the price is about the same. A 2023 Corvette is about $62k. Model 3 P is $53k. Or am I misunderstanding the question? If you're trying to compare a 500hp gas 0-6 sub 3.5 second car you'll be paying around $60k (or more).
Quoted from smalltownguy2:Back of the napkin math on a $38,000 purchase price shows about 9 years before an EV (difference in price versus an ICE vehicle) pays for itself in fuel/maintenance savings.
Assuming 13,500 miles driven a year, gas at $3 per gallon, and electric cost of about $450 in charging a year.
This isn't horrible, I've owned my last two cars for 14 years and 18 years respectively. Provided I can hold an EV that long without a major battery repair, it might actually be worth it to try and find a decent used EV in an SUV chassis. IF I could find one.
This doesn't take into account the value of my time not having to schedule and wait for routine engine maintenance items. There's a value on that for me, for sure.
Except where is the $38k coming from? Is that the ICE car equivalent? A low cost EV? For comparison the average new 2023 car price is now $50k.
And I'd use closer to $4 per gallon. We're at $3.50 avg nationally and projections are for prices to go up. Extrapolate that out over those 9 years so definitely use higher prices. Maybe even use $4.50... Your $450 per yr for an EV is about right though.
And if you are going to include time saved for routine engine maintenance then you also have to include time waiting for fuel. We've had this discussion on here a few months ago... lets say 2 mins to fill up with gas plus a minute fiddling with the pump and cards, etc. Fill up once a week and that equates to 156 minutes a year.
I fast charge my EV a couple times a year and the avg wait time over 5 years has been 14 minutes. So to charge my EV on long road trips is lets say 4 per yr x 14 mins = 56 minutes vs 156 minutes to fuel gas a yr. Over those same 9 years that's 900 more minutes waiting on gas. That's 15 hrs more - just fueling.
I did cost analysis when I bought my Model 3 AWD. What I discovered was by the time I get to 100k miles driven it will have cost me the same as a $23k gas car. Basically a Honda Civic in the lowest trim they offer. This does however include the $7,500 tax break I got in 2018 (now offered again today).
Quoted from mrm_4:Sure:
www.reuters.com/evdouchebagdataproof
Well --- that doesn't put your viewpoint in a defendable good light.
Here's an actual link with data sources that can at least be discussed.
tesla-fire-safety--2020-impact-report-august-2021_100802712_l-2 (resized).jpg
Measuring based on miles driven seems like a logical approach.
Quoted from altan:Well --- that doesn't put your viewpoint in a defendable good light.
Here's an actual link with data sources that can at least be discussed.
[quoted image]
Measuring based on miles driven seems like a logical approach.
Source : https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133254_fires-are-less-frequent-in-teslas-and-other-evs-vs-gas-vehicles
They dont want "discussion". They have an irrational fear and this thread is a safe space for them to stamp their feet. Just enjoy the show.
Sana'a
Quoted from vid1900:Maybe Elon's next venture could be inventing a low power way to break the hydrogen sodium bond for desalinization.
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from tripplett:Break even for purchase price? If you are comparing a model 3 performance and a similarly equipped ice vehicle then the price is about the same. A 2023 Corvette is about $62k. Model 3 P is $53k. Or am I misunderstanding the question? If you're trying to compare a 500hp gas 0-6 sub 3.5 second car you'll be paying around $60k (or more).
Except where is the $38k coming from? Is that the ICE car equivalent? A low cost EV? For comparison the average new 2023 car price is now $50k.
And I'd use closer to $4 per gallon. We're at $3.50 avg nationally and projections are for prices to go up. Extrapolate that out over those 9 years so definitely use higher prices. Maybe even use $4.50... Your $450 per yr for an EV is about right though.
And if you are going to include time saved for routine engine maintenance then you also have to include time waiting for fuel. We've had this discussion on here a few months ago... lets say 2 mins to fill up with gas plus a minute fiddling with the pump and cards, etc. Fill up once a week and that equates to 156 minutes a year.
I fast charge my EV a couple times a year and the avg wait time over 5 years has been 14 minutes. So to charge my EV on long road trips is lets say 4 per yr x 14 mins = 56 minutes vs 156 minutes to fuel gas a yr. Over those same 9 years that's 900 more minutes waiting on gas. That's 15 hrs more - just fueling.
I did cost analysis when I bought my Model 3 AWD. What I discovered was by the time I get to 100k miles driven it will have cost me the same as a $23k gas car. Basically a Honda Civic in the lowest trim they offer. This does however include the $7,500 tax break I got in 2018 (now offered again today).
Yeah, lower priced (maybe even used) EV. I'll never purchase a model 3 performance new.
I'm not an EV customer unless they are similarly priced to an ICE counterpart. That'll be a while, I think. If ever.
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:This particular "innovation" dates back to the 1930's with swing tires/wheels on Park-Cars, and I've seen it on a variety of vehicles over the decades. Nothing new, and I suspect if it had any kind of demand we would all have it in our cars today.
I have to respectfully disagree. As a product liability trial attorney, I regularly see innovative inventions which are thwarted for economic reasons. They never make it to the marketplace.
Everyone knows the story of the Tucker car, with its safety designs. Ever hear of "saw-stop?" The entire power saw industry rejected that safer mousetrap for self-preservation reasons, unconnected to the actual risk-utility of that superior product.
Betamax was a format superior to VHS. But, the inferior VHS captured the market because Sony refused to license its Betamax technology. My point is that mere "demand" does not dictate what innovations find their way to the marketplace. It's a far more complex set of forces which enables a good or better product to actualize in any major industry.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Cool article. Thanks! Do you have anything to prove the EV's catch fire at a higher rate than ICE cars? This article links to another source which again, may have biases but still seems to conclude that EV's have a lower propensity to catch fire. https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/ev-fires-less-common-but-more-problematic/25749
[quoted image]
I wonder if that cartoon uses annual sales in the recent year but the total population of each vehicle type?
Quoted from MrBally:I wonder if that cartoon uses annual sales in the recent year but the total population of each vehicle type?
Nope.
Quoted from ZNET:I have to respectfully disagree. As a product liability trial attorney, I regularly see innovative inventions which are thwarted for economic reasons. They never make it to the marketplace.
Everyone knows the story of the Tucker car, with its safety designs. Ever hear of "saw-stop?" The entire power saw industry rejected that safer mousetrap for self-preservation reasons, unconnected to the actual risk-utility of that superior product.
Betamax was a format superior to VHS. But, the inferior VHS captured the market because Sony refused to license its Betamax technology. My point is that mere "demand" does not dictate what innovations find their way to the marketplace. It's a far more complex set of forces which enables a good or better product to actualize in any major industry.
Didn't think I needed to be overly specific in my explanation of why such a narrowly useful feature in a vehicle hasn't become mainstream after decades of similar functionality existing, but happy with what you wrote. I kind of view this one as helpful as having propellers on the back of the car with tires that angle upward to serve as fins.
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:Didn't think I needed to be overly specific in my explanation of why such a narrowly useful feature in a vehicle hasn't become mainstream after decades of similar functionality existing, but happy with what you wrote. I kind of view this one as helpful as having propellers on the back of the car with tires that angle upward to serve as fins.
You mean windmills. And they go on bumpers, iirc.
Hahahahaha
Quoted from paynemic:You mean windmills. And they go on bumpers, iirc.
Hahahahaha
Dude this is all you have, just keep going back to that like it’s some kind of comedic gold that you sit on.
You’re a regular Pauly Shore!
“Derpy derp windmills derp”
(Laughs until veins burst in eye balls)
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:Didn't think I needed to be overly specific in my explanation of why such a narrowly useful feature in a vehicle hasn't become mainstream after decades of similar functionality existing, but happy with what you wrote. I kind of view this one as helpful as having propellers on the back of the car with tires that angle upward to serve as fins.
I can imagine long-term implications if the crab wheels were to be adopted by several manufacturers. For example, new parking lots could be designed to accommodate more vehicles. Sections or spaces could be "crab-wheels only," much like current "compact cars only spaces."
The technology not only enhances parking. It allows cars to rotate at 360 degrees. This feature would also mean that lots could conserve on space. Perhaps some lot owners would redesign existing lots to enhance revenue. A single parking space can fetch a small fortune from a NYC resident.
I can also imagine that this feature would assist handicapped drivers in both parking and exiting a tight spot, where a handicap designated spot is not readily available.
We all know the tale of the 3M glue that didn't stick. It was a worthless invention until post-it notes were conceived.
If Hyundai implements this crab wheel feature, it will be introduced in Europe initially. It seems as though the cavernous and narrow streets of some European countries could particularly benefit from this feature.
As for fins and propellers on cars---yeah, that's a bridge too far.
Quoted from mcluvin:That is cool! Did they ever add a rear wiper?
No rear wiper. Hyundai relies on the high definition rear camera. Also, the rear air foil deflects some of the rain, I suppose.
Incidentally, the matte gray exterior paint selection on the Ioniq 5 is a $1K feature and that paint choice requires hand-wash only. Commercial car wash brushes are too rough and would damage the sensitive finish. Glad to have selected the blue exterior choice.
Quoted from ZNET:Incidentally, the matte gray exterior paint selection on the Ioniq 5 is a $1K feature and that paint choice requires hand-wash only.
I bet the body shops have fun trying to match that paint.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:Yeah, lower priced (maybe even used) EV. I'll never purchase a model 3 performance new.
I'm not an EV customer unless they are similarly priced to an ICE counterpart. That'll be a while, I think. If ever.
It's getting there. Model Y is real close to a RAV4 Prime. Cheaper if you factor the tax credit. Granted a RAV4 Prime is a hybrid.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:I'm not an EV customer unless they are similarly priced to an ICE counterpart. That'll be a while, I think. If ever.
But they are already today. I put that in my post but perhaps you missed it. The average price of a new car in the US is now $49,500. There are like a dozen EVs at that price or less. That doesn't even include the $7,500 tax rebate.
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:This particular "innovation" dates back to the 1930's with swing tires/wheels on Park-Cars, and I've seen it on a variety of vehicles over the decades. Nothing new, and I suspect if it had any kind of demand we would all have it in our cars today.
Lots of things are invented years, decades or centuries before they become viable. The complexity (regulatory, design, financial and otherwise) are likely the main reasons we dont see this. Demand matters for sure but the other aspects need to line up to. Would I LIKE this in my car? Sure. Would be nice but honestly my car, as well as many others, parallel parks themselves anyway so I dont think anyone is going to be clamoring for this.
Quoted from tripplett:But they are already today. I put that in my post but perhaps you missed it. The average price of a new car in the US is now $49,500. There are like a dozen EVs at that price or less. That doesn't even include the $7,500 tax rebate.
Yes but you need to compare apples to apples. Utility to utility.
Average ICE pickup versus EV pickup
Average ICE SUV versus EV SUV
Average ICE sedan versus similar EV sedan.
I believe EV's are still more expensive than their ICE counterparts. Especially in the used market.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:Yes but you need to compare apples to apples. Utility to utility.
Average ICE pickup versus EV pickup
Average ICE SUV versus EV SUV
Average ICE sedan versus similar EV sedan.
I believe EV's are still more expensive than their ICE counterparts. Especially in the used market.
Not as far apart you might think. And not at all if you consider total-cost-of-ownership (fuel, oil, etc.).
Quoted from altan:Well --- that doesn't put your viewpoint in a defendable good light.
Here's an actual link with data sources that can at least be discussed.
[quoted image]
Measuring based on miles driven seems like a logical approach.
Source : https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1133254_fires-are-less-frequent-in-teslas-and-other-evs-vs-gas-vehicles
Lets measure it by time parked and randomly igniting. Or fires initiated during refueling/charging
Quoted from pinballizfun:Lets measure it by time parked and randomly igniting. Or fires initiated during refueling/charging
Strange goal post move but ok...
Like these fords?
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/ford-urges-suvs-parked-fire-risks/story?id=84841280
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Strange goal post move but ok...
Like these fords?
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/ford-urges-suvs-parked-fire-risks/story?id=84841280
well aware of that, now lets find out how many that is out of all the gas cars around and do the same for EV's.
Quoted from pinballizfun:well aware of that, now lets find out how many that is out of all the gas cars around and do the same for EV's.
The per mile metric has already been done and ICE vehicles are more likely to catch fire. If you can find data for your oddly specific metric you should post it.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:Yes but you need to compare apples to apples. Utility to utility.
Average ICE pickup versus EV pickup
Average ICE SUV versus EV SUV
Average ICE sedan versus similar EV sedan.
I believe EV's are still more expensive than their ICE counterparts. Especially in the used market.
If you consider all features - like glass roof, performance, heated seats and steering wheels, remote start, auto park, adaptive cruse, lane keeping assist, etc… I still think you’ll find them about the same for a comparable ice car. Those extras all add up on a gas car but many EVs it’s included.
Used market yes, but we aren’t even discussing used. Your original comment was the high price of new EVs. I’m just trying to shed light that the gap (for new) is much closer than you are eluding to.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:I'm not an EV customer unless they are similarly priced to an ICE counterpart. That'll be a while, I think. If ever.
People used to be much smarter in the old days....
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10156138914136091
Systems for easier parallel parking are almost as old as cars themselves. No system ever made it into mass production for various reasons.
Well this just took a turn…. breaking and not a lot of information out yet.
Assumption inbound: I’m going to guess the station was full and someone jumped the line sparking an argument.
https://electrek.co/2023/05/03/tesla-driver-dies-fatal-shooting-supercharger-station-argument/
Quoted from tripplett:Well this just took a turn…. breaking and not a lot of information out yet.
Assumption inbound: I’m going to guess the station was full and someone jumped the line sparking an argument.
https://electrek.co/2023/05/03/tesla-driver-dies-fatal-shooting-supercharger-station-argument/
This was inevitable, just wait. It will get worse
Quoted from tripplett:Well this just took a turn…. breaking and not a lot of information out yet.
Assumption inbound: I’m going to guess the station was full and someone jumped the line sparking an argument.
https://electrek.co/2023/05/03/tesla-driver-dies-fatal-shooting-supercharger-station-argument/
Apparently it had nothing to do with the chargers or the cars. Both men were armed and had an unrelated altercation.
Just shows how fast people, even myself, can jump to a conclusion when a hot topic like EVs are involved.
https://twitter.com/bayanwang/status/1653905096865112065?s=20
Quoted from tripplett:Apparently it had nothing to do with the chargers or the cars. Both men were armed and had an unrelated altercation.
Just shows how fast people, even myself, can jump to a conclusion when a hot topic like EVs are involved.
https://twitter.com/bayanwang/status/1653905096865112065?s=20
I figured it was 2 ICE bubba trucks fighting over the last charging spot...
Quoted from tripplett:jump to a conclusion when a hot topic like EVs are involved.
It's only a "hot topic" in the States, because a faux-news network that specializes in keeping viewers angry with manufactured outrage.
They make EVs a trigger for their snowflake viewers.
The rest of the world welcomes the changeover to faster, less maintenance vehicles that start off the day with a full tank of fuel.
Zeichen_330_-_Autobahn,_StVO_1992.svg (resized).pngQuoted from Pinfactory2000:The per mile metric has already been done and ICE vehicles are more likely to catch fire. If you can find data for your oddly specific metric you should post it.
There is no miles to be measured when its sitting charging or parked and lights on fire.
Quoted from vid1900:It's only a "hot topic" in the States, because a faux-news network that specializes in keeping viewers angry with manufactured outrage.
They make EVs a trigger for their snowflake viewers.
The rest of the world welcomes the changeover to faster, less maintenance vehicles that start off the day with a full tank of fuel.[quoted image]
Please, nobody is triggered by EVs. Some people have reservations about them and are waiting a few years before making that decision. I’m only half interested in one for a personal vehicle for my wife who doesn’t use her car often. I have a fleet of Tacoma’s on the road that never break down or employee’s calling in ‘I forgot to charge the truck. When the government mandates EVs, ask yourself ‘at what cost?
Quoted from pinballizfun:There is no miles to be measured when its sitting charging or parked and lights on fire.
huh? Miles per incident is a common stat used for transportation safety measurements. Its where the "its safer to fly than drive" numbers come from.
Again, if you have a different measurement/statistic you'd like to enter into the discussion...go for it...
but FWIW, IF I'm going to experience a vehicle fire (which is statistically VERY unlikely regardless of powertrain) I'd prefer it happen when its sitting alone in a parking lot over when the family and I are in it doing 75 down the highway.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:huh? Miles per incident is a common stat used for transportation safety measurements. Its where the "its safer to fly than drive" numbers come from.
Again, if you have a different measurement/statistic you'd like to enter into the discussion...go for it...
but FWIW, IF I'm going to experience a vehicle fire (which is statistically VERY unlikely regardless of powertrain) I'd prefer it happen when its sitting alone in a parking lot over when the family and I are in it doing 75 down the highway.
What EV do you drive?
Quoted from mrm_4:What EV do you drive?
Wife has one on order. Why does that matter? How does that relate to the discussion about safety statistics we were having?
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Wife has one on order. Why does that matter? How does that relate to the discussion about safety statistics we were having?
So you dont drive an EV?
Quoted from mrm_4:So you dont drive an EV?
Why does that matter? How does that relate to safety statistics of ICE/EV vehicles? Be VERY specific please.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Why does that matter? How does that relate to safety statistics of ICE/EV vehicles? Be VERY specific please.
Doesnt matter... carry on 
Quoted from mrm_4:Doesnt matter... carry on
Thought not. Imagine thinking you had a "gotcha" LOL
In 2019, Elon Musk claimed that a battery replacement would cost the owners about $5,000-$7,000. However, when you include labor costs and the overall market situation, well… let’s just say the figures are different today.
Here are a couple of price examples:
Anywhere around $13,000-$20,000 for Models S
At least $14,000 for a Model X premium SUV
At least $13,000 for a Model 3 entry-level sedan
Even though the figures are considerable, your warranty should cover all that. But if you got the short end of a stick or went with used, you’ll have to pay out of pocket. Generally, battery replacement cost is one of the reasons electric vehicles are not as popular as they could be.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Thought not. Imagine thinking you had a "gotcha" LOL
Not a gotcha, just gauging all the EV love and arguing and stat touting and everything else that gets regurgitated from you as an ICE driver. Kind of strange and hypocritical.
Maybe your wife should post for you after she gets her car. At least she's walking the walk.
Pulled that info of the web and copy and pasted it. Myself.... i can spend 100 a week on gas for my ice vehicles and would never recoupe the extra cost of a ev, nor if it ever needed a battery. If one day over my cold dead body i do buy a ev. i will be the plaid or the hummer ev. The rest of those things are stupid as shit.
Quoted from mrm_4:Not a gotcha, just gauging all the EV love and arguing and stat touting and everything else that gets regurgitated from you as an ICE driver. Kind of strange and hypocritical.
If someone says deep dish pizza will kill you and I state the fact that it wont...am I a hypocrite or strange if I eat NY style instead of deep dish?
Using facts in a discussion used to mean someone is pragmatic. Now you assume its tribal or odd.
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