100? No. 99.9%? Clearly...

Jeff

The US could have a state-owned oil company that could be ordered to invest in output rather than stock buybacks, dividends, and debt retirement, many countries do this, but reasonable ideas like this have been demonized as end-of-the-world socialism and communism by the very same people who benefit the most from ensuring short-term corporate profits at the cost of essential societal services. We should finally stop listening to those individuals about everything instead of voting for them more than ever.

I was just up in Hamilton this weekend. As of two days ago, full self driving is still not enabled in Canada.

Also, I can vouch first hand, getting into the beta is *really* hard. Like months of driving perfectly hard. In order for something like self-driving to be a thing, it's going to need to be tested stress tested against the real world, and Tesla *is* leveraging their drivers to speed up the process, but the barrier for entry is still very high. As it should be.

The problem here continues to be "real world" testing using people who are not trained testers. I know how hard it is to get into the beta but that still doesn't make you a trained tester. Eventually Tesla is going to kill someone and when they do, look out...

Jeff

They have already killed....
yes people can be bad drivers then the rely upon what is said to be "fully autonomous"
I have seen "fully autonomous" on the window sticker on tezlas for sale which makes me "misinformed"

https://sfist.com/2022/01/20/tesla-driver-who-was-behind-wheel-on-autopilot-when-car-killed/
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20034037/cyclist-killed-by-tesla-car-with-self-driving-features/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/01/20/tesla-autopilot-charges/
https://www.tesladeaths.com/

Yeah, becuase the government is great at running things .....

Batteries are made from nickel and lithium

Russia is the third-biggest producer of nickel
China has the sixth-largest lithium reserves in the world, but the country still imports 75% of its lithium resources to meet the metal's increasing demand in the electric vehicle sector

Your car battery isnt getting charged by sunshine and wind and when those batteries wear out, we have a whole new environmental problem

The batteries are HIGHLY recyclable so not sure what your last sentence is getting at...

Jeff

The only thought 99% of techbros have is "wow, I could make a tonne of money if we made an app to get around all these longstanding health + safety regulations!" LOL
like, ok dude, go back to cuddling your NFTs.

I am going to get my name on the ballet as "None of the above"

pasted_image (resized).png

One, you have NOT EVER seen "fully autonomous" on any window/monroney sticker on any Tesla that's ever left the Tesla factory. That's simply false, period, full stop. You're either making this up or misremembering.

Two, the driver is always in control in the current iteration of the software. I do agree though that those incidents should be considered serious issues but those are incidents using autopilot, not FSD. They are completely two different things/features...

Jeff

oil companies holding nations by the scruff of their shirt like a pencil-necked geek, forcing them to say "Master Blaster runs Barter Town" into the microphone

I like that you stall on the last piece but ignore the other parts...

Jeff

Batteries (resized).jpg

I get the animus of this argument, but the flipside of "give hypercapitalists full control to run wild with their profit motivations" isn't the answer either, as we have seen endlessly over the last century, and which has resulted in multiple extremely powerful nation-states that are essentially corporate lobbyists stuffed into a trenchcoat that says "Gubbimint" on the lapel pin

Yeah I really don't know why people keep insisting that Li-ion batteries are "HIGHLY" recyclable. They aren't. The same people probably thing all their mixed/dirty plastics are getting recycled when they throw them in their recycling can too.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithium-batteries-big-unanswered-question

Because a regular lithium ion battery isn't the same as an EV battery due to a number of things such as battery chemistry, cell construction, etc... Oh and plastic recycling is a joke, it takes more energy to recycle than to just make new plastic and the majority of it ends up in landfills anyhow.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/ford-signs-deal-with-redwood-materials-to-recycle-ev-batteries-.html

Jeff

Weirdly enough, I do do software testing as part of my job, but I understand your point.

I think it comes down to that driving a car is one of the riskiest things you can do, but it doesn't feel that way because we're so used to the risk. Self driving cars have the potential to be much safer but feel much riskier.

To get to the next point, you need to have real drivers using real roads. That's the point of a beta. But you know that every single incident is going to be blamed on the car, even if the expectation was on the driver being in full control. That's why there's such a high bar.

I won't lie, I'm glad Tesla is pushing it through, with a very tightly selected pool, because the alternative is that the technology stalls like so many other self driving projects before it. You just won't reach the next step without it.

Really, the thing that Tesla really needs to be called out on is the phantom breaking.

If I recall, they tried the same idea on Myth Busters ... also with limited success.

Landfills in impoverished countries a lot of times even. So not only do they not get recycled but we put them on some of the most polluting vehicles on the planet (cargo ships) and send them off for some other place to deal with. Awful.

BTW the article you linked basically says that they are still trying to figure out a good way to recycle the batteries especially on the levels that we might see in the near future as EV's become more and more common, which is a major issue right now. It also contains a quote from Tesla that all their batteries are 100% recycled, but as we just discussed, recycled doesn't always mean recycled. Sorry, but currently they are NOT "highly" recyclable and you need to get that idea out of your head until its proven that they are AND that companies will actually follow through with doing it.

Well I have but I did not save it. the picture of the sticker was included with the photos of the car of a used tezla for sale.
I know know I should have to prove it to the MUSKeteers. But I will look just for you.
Tesla web page:
Full Self-Driving Capability
$12,000

so what does Full Self-Driving Capability really mean ?

Used... LOL... So your entire premise is based on a false and factually inaccurate used car for sale?

Read the fine print but it certainly doesn't say "fully autonomous"... Right now FSD is essentially a scam and vaporware that means absolutely nothing yet somehow Tesla is able to sell this scam to people for $12K... How they can legally do that is beyond me. My guess is they get away with it because they folded the functioning autopilot features (self parking, staying in your lane, changing lanes, and traffic aware cruse control) into FSD so "technically" it's not vaporware even though the name indicates functionality that simply doesn't exist.

Jeff

Everyone needs to take a step back on self driving BS. Before any of that happens you need to realize how morally irresponsible it is especially to test on public roads. For a number of reasons regardless of self driving or not accidents are still going to happen. The problem is someone has to program the AI/logic that dictates the actions of the vehicle. There will be situations where there is no evasive action and the only course of action is to choose an accident. Because there is NO guarantee of the result of the accident are you OK with some programmer/company dictating the probability you will live or die in the event of an accident in one of their self driving cars? Who the FUCK gives ANY of these manufacturers the the RIGHT to design AI that could choose who lives or dies? That makes them more powerful than any judge. And if there is a death from an accident the owner of the car is held accountable and not the company manufacturing the car? FUCK THAT NOISE. The manufacturer of ANY of these self driving cars should be held accountable for all accidents and consequences from those accidents. Again…technology is great but not when used irresponsibly. Just think how easy it would be to hack the system of one of these cars to program it to get it into an accident targeting death/injury to one of its occupants…yeah that’s some Hollywood movie shit but it’s not far fetched. The sheeple are buying into this self driving BS way too easy.

Any company testing auto pilot/self driving on public roads should be shut down immediately as they are a public threat. It is completely irresponsible to just “test” in this manner.

..im thinking not very easy.

And I am sure everyone uses a strong password and accounts never get hacked. It’s probably easier than what any of us realize to hack modern cars…these things all have software…..think of how easy your TV updates firmware or your phone updates….the idea is plausible. Now if it’s practical is a different question.

Um... Yes? Your post is just more FUD... As the technology and software get better, they'll be safer than a human driver by magnitudes... Also, it's not easy to hack at all. You really should actually read up on how this works with Tesla specifically as perhaps you'd calm down a bit and realize just how much FUD is in your post. I doubt you will though, screaming and flailing your arms about how unsafe it is certainly seems like less work than actually educating yourself.

Jeff

https://jalopnik.com/this-clip-of-a-tesla-model-3-failing-an-automatic-emerg-1845129387

Totally agree.

Really, this is the trolley problem. What decisions a self-driving car is going to make is an important discussion to have, but it's also one that's already happening. Also, it's important to remember that this is an edge case. As is someone hacking your car. It's about as likely as someone cutting your break line or hiding a pipebomb under your car, except those two are probably much simpler to pull off.

But what I think what you're really getting at is not the specific choice, but the fact that you lose the ability to make the choice. But people already do that every time they take a bus or taxi, except with the human driver, there's a lot more uncertainty involved. I don't know if that guy drank today, broke up with his girlfriend, or just had a bad night's sleep, and isn't paying as close attention as he usually does.

I think recycling and material reclamation are one of the fascinating engineering problems we have right now, and I highly recommend every dive in to it. It's such a broad topic, and saying something is "recyclable" is about as useful to a conversation as a doctor telling you that you have "cancer". i.e. it's a catch-all term that hide the vast complexities and variation beneath.
Most people hear "recyclable" and then tune out, nothing more to be asked. That's the reason they put the "Recycle #7" symbol on the bottom of plastics: it makes people feel better. Most people don't know that type 7 plastics aren't actually recyclable in any reasonable capacity, and most people don't eve know that plastics type 1 through 6 (the number inside the symbol on the plastic) are BARELY recyclable, and in a best-case scenario only have one further limited use in their life span.

Batteries are way worse than plastics when it comes to recycling, too. And in the same way that petroleum companies spent millions and millions trying to drill into us that plastics were recyclable so we shouldn't question why we use them in such a profoundly massive way, people involved in the batteries industries don't want us to think too hard about the huge implications of the complexities around battery manufacturing, recycling, and material recovery.

Corporations lying to us to steer the entire public conversation so that they can make massive profits by using the earth as their toxic dumping grounds? *monocle pops off*
The earth can't afford these kinds of people dominating our countries any more. sigh.

you need to make friends in infosec

anyways I hope everyone enjoys their Elon Musk Neurolink implants or whatever.

they WILL be safer by magnitudes
not EASY to hack

step aside doubters, there's money in them there hills

Look, we can all agree driving is without question the most dangerous thing most of us do on almost a daily basis. Plenty of bad drivers for sure and most accidents could be avoided. The issue I have with self driving cars is there will still be accidents and automatic controls will dictate the actions/outcomes of these accidents. Who is the one deciding these automatic actions are the correct actions. These actions could decide who lives/dies in an accident. Who is giving and approving this decision making logic and how legal is it….that’s the debate. And if in the end the owner of the self driving car is going to be at fault then that’s not right either.

And no one is flailing arms/screaming…..this is a discussion and we are sharing opinions and different views…that’s how we learn and see things from more than one angle. But I definitely do not think public roads are the correct place to test self driving technology.

And this technology has a LONG way to go…my Camry has driver assist and it has more than once corrected me and almost crashed me into an 18 wheeler on one occasion and a car on another occasion. I have it turned off as it’s much safer that way.

While some claim the videos are faked. I will say the Tezla could tell that it was a fake pedestrian and ran it over to prove it.

isn't that the polite southern way of saying "good for you" which actually means what the Ukrainians said to the Russian Navy

Lots of posts about Tesla ghost braking. If my adaptive cruise control slows unnecessarily, such as when the car ahead is slowing to exit or make a turn and is moving out of the way, I can simply push the gas pedal to maintain my speed with no problem.

Is ghost breaking preventing the driver from pushing the accelerator to keep going?

No but what I'm talking about when I say "phantom breaking", and this happened A LOT in our Model X, is you're driving down the highway with nothing in front of you and the car slams on the breaks out of nowhere. It's dangerous and been a problem for years now with no known fix to date.

Jeff

This thread reminded of this article.
FB_IMG_1646956250181 (resized).jpg

In that 1) we are rapidly approaching an age of plentiful electricity and the end of the mass-produced combustion engine and
2) unregulated capitalism is generally incompatible with any hopeful and idyllic future on this planet

NHTSA is good at automotive safety and safety systems. 20-25 years ago, all we heard about were killer trucks, killer trucks. We don't hear about that anymore. You can thank antilock brake systems (mandated in '97 for tractors, '98 for trailers), stability control systems for trucks, busses and tractors and roll stability support systems for trailers. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards save lives...

In the vast majority of cases, there is a clear correct action, which can usually avoid accidents, or at least minimize them.

Let’s be 100% honest, eventually computers will be better than humans in making these decisions. I might swerve right based on instinct, but a computer will eventually be able to act on data faster than I can.

Even when it comes to two bad choices, like do I crash into that wall, and potentially die, or swerve into a motorcyclist, and end up fine but *he* dies, that’s difficult, but at least we can have that conversation now and act on it, because when I’m driving in that situation, it’s probably going to just be instinct, no matter how much I talk about it before hand.

If the issue is just that the system is imperfect right now, yes, but it won’t stay that way. It won’t ever be perfect, but it will reach a point where it will vastly out perform humans, like computers got to eventually be better than even the best chess player.

One way is to produce in Mexico. Heck, North America's largest Semi-Trailer manufacturer has plants in Tijuana and Rosarito. They galvanize trailer frames and Landing Gear assemblies basically out in the open. They could never do that North of the border.

"no known fix to date", and you still take it out on the road because the alternative is ...... ICE ??? 1-800-CALLSAM

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39145925/tesla-phantom-breaking-nhtsa-investigation/

this article said that there was a recall on the model X for your problem, did you take it in or have tezla send a tech out to fix it?

Agree that in many instances there is a correct choice but there are still going to be those times when there isn’t a “correct” choice and it comes down to do I sacrifice myself and get hit by an 18 wheeler or take out a pedestrian or a bicyclist and save myself. That should be MY choice and not determined by someone else. It’s called free will and we all should have that and the consequences that come with it. Technology may advance enough that the car may recognize the age/health of the occupants of vehicles and make decisions based on who should live/die on those factors. I want no part of that. That means someone else gets to play judge/jury/executioner with others lives…that is not right and we are gonna go down that road at some point. That is the whole moral debate. No one should have the power to decide one life is more valuable than another as it pertains to automobile accidents.

The original Nissan leaf used your VIN number as the password so people were able to basically lift VIN numbers off of Nissan leafs and access the cars through the Nissan app.

Another group did a demonstration of hacking a Jeep Cherokee and they were able to control the accelerator.

Security of car systems is definitely something I hope manufacturers are taking seriously.
It's not necessarily easy to do but programmers make silly mistakes, that are sometimes quite simple to take advantage of.

Did you ever pump gas as a job ?

gas1 (resized).jpg

I call it panic braking first the car panic brakes then the passengers have a panic attack.

Very common and people pay for this luxury.

What do 4D computers do better then people? 2D is chess

Not going to defend the first part because there's no logical defense in that we really loved the car so this "issue" just didn't rise to the level of don't drive.

Oh Tesla is WELL aware of this issue and the recall you're referencing didn't apply to the X but the issue is across all models, it's inherent to the shitty state of the "computer vision" software and Tesla doesn't seem terribly interested in fixing it. It's quite jarring when it happens to you especially if you're not prepared for it...

Jeff

Nice to see someone else who is such a waste disposal nerd like myself. I find the whole process fascinating, alarming, and in some ways downright sickening. Its absolutely crazy to me that people have been duped into thinking they are helping the environment when in reality they are making things so much worse, while blocking technologies that can be very beneficial like W2E. I'm a big proponent of waste to energy. But no, people are against that, while being perfectly content with loading cargo ships full of garbage and dumping it off in some foreign land.

I'm far from a tree hugger, but even I can get behind helping the earth. Just the ways we go about it are so back assward sometime. Can I be the guy who wants to keep ICE around as well as protect the environment where we can? So much of this just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, except someone convinced you it was a good idea.