Agree 100%. Its gorgeous, and I did enjoy it for a few months, but am so glad I moved on and got a STLE in its place.

I picked up an MMR, and I have absolutely no regrets!

Yes, we've heard that before, but did y'all keep it thru the latest 2.0 code release?? If you go back to the original post, that was the purpose of this thread, now that the code is mostly complete do the original negative experiences still stand??

For example, A couple of weeks back I picked up an LOTR that still had 6.0 code, it was okay, but played clunky and had continuity issues. Installed 10.0 code this weekend and the machine is 200% better! I had doubts if I bought the right pin when it was 6.0 code but 10.0 has turned it into a keeper....

Here's my two cents on MMR/TH. I bought both machines within a couple weeks of each other. MM is a machine I have wanted for years and had played it many times. I thought I would want to play it daily. I have had the games for approx. 10 months now, and I only play MMR 10% of the time and TH the other 90%. I find myself wanting to play TH non stop and neglecting all my other machines. For me, getting to ITF, BE, BOFA is a rush and I can't get enough!

Never thought I'd read something like that... that's pretty telling. wow.

I really like Star Trek too, but would not trade my hobbit for it.

I'll agree TH is slightly easier than WOZ in terms of having what needs doing for locks on the pf but still I had no clue wtf I was doing or achieving. I guess I wasn't enthralled having a 25min ball I didn't feel challenged even though there was probably 20 more modes and arkenstone modes to go. I simply just got bored. The beauty of the game was somewhat lost on me because being completely unsure of what to do kind of killed it. Yes I've only played about 5 games on it so I'll take a hit for not giving a little more chance but TH for the few times I've played it hasn't gotten the pinball juices flowing

I'm keeping mine because it's too heavy to move.

That is what makes this hobby work, thank goodness. Pinball is a subjective thing for sure. And I do think skill level impacts games as well. I was beating Smaug on a VERY regular basis (sometimes multiple times a game), and got to all 3 multiball modes on a regular basis as well. There just wasn't enough fun shots and flow for me. Everything was multiball and pop up frenzy and once you achieve most of the goals, that just didn't stay fun for me. The shots weren't satisfying. It became very repetitive. But its a gorgeous pin, and up until the point that I'd played all the modes and gotten all the multiballs there was that excitement for sure. I'm glad they are going to give it the WOZ treatment code wise, but I think there is only so much you can do with 4 pop ups, a U ramp and some drop targets. Just my humble opinion.

I found the head to be very easy to remove, then it was much much more manageable

I'm glad my STLE is gone and hope to never play one again!

It's certainly not for everyone, but did you try opening your outlane side and/or removing the center post? It can be made to play tough...

I'm going to borrow a mates hobbit and see if I like it more after trying to understand it... I'll report back in a month

I found ST to be monotonous...no personality to the modes and you're always in one. Each mode on TH is unique and changes the feel of the game.

To be fair, I never got to play the final code on ST though.

Certainly has been the case for me these days! I'm actually a little worried about my TH obsession...

Well, you have a kickass STTNG, why the heck would you want to play STLE anyways?

JJP Pins (WOZ and TH anyway - I haven't played DI yet) are quite unique in appearance and play style from a Stern. So for diversity in a collection I think they would be highly desirable. As much as I like Stern, I really like the experience with playing WOZ and TH. TH is just fantastic to own and play (and learn). I am a fan of Keith's programming/mode styles so I am a fan of both WOZ and TH.

Some don't much care for the adventure type games Keith is doing - but I am a fan.

I own Hobbit and LOTR so can't help comparing the code related gameplay.

In most aspects, Hobbit is like LOTR on steroids. More modes, better sound, display and lighting effects. It's very fun exploring the various aspects of the Hobbit, but if the games are meant to take you on an adventure, the Hobbit is missing some key story arcs whereas LOTR is complete.

To me, scoring is secondary to the adventure. After the adventure is completed you can go back and try to do it better!

Since Keith is the programmer on both games and given his past comments on game design, I wouldn't be surprised if the missing elements in the Hobbit were included in the original game architecture and are just waiting to be added as time and resources allow.

LOTR:
Start three different multiballs, each with their own starting requirements, to get to Destroy the Ring.
Start all modes to get to There and Back Again.
Beat modes and Multiballs to collect Elf Gifts.
Collect 7 Elf Gifts, Get to There and Back Again, Beat each multiball mode and Destroy the Ring to get to Valinor.

Hobbit:
Beat one Mode as one of the qualifiers for Arkenstone mode, further Mode completions don't advance adventure until Arkenstone mode is played.
Road to second Arkenstone mode is the same as the first.
Beating Multiball modes doesn't advance adventure.
Beating Arkenstone modes doesn't advance adventure.
Starting all modes doesn't advance adventure.

I think this is correct but if you see an error, please point it out.

TL:DR
Each of the features on the Hobbit are really well done and it's fun exploring the various aspects of the game. However, unlike LOTR, the Hobbit is less successful in taking you on an adventure because it doesn't advance the adventure when modes, multiballs, etc. are completed. I anticipate the missing elements being added in the future.

Agreed, LOTR is still the superior game ...but what Hobbit lacks from LOTR, I think the presentation (lights, video, music) is so excellent, I cut the game some slack for not being as good as LOTR in other respects. I have them both, I think they complement each other nicely.

I don't own LOTR, but every time I play it, it seems the adventure is slower. Much, much slower. TH draws me in right away with something cool to do (heck, even if it's just hitting a beast). LOTR leaves me there with my ball cradled, wondering what I should do next...

No?

I don't see it. One shot into the ring, mode starts. Every shot collects a character, working you toward Fellowship MB. Every shot has a white/red/yellow ring lit...so those shots are all doing something for you. Spelling KEEP on the inlane/outlanes light the sword ramp lock for Two Towers MB. Every shot into the tower on the left kicks up to the path, which collects souls, working you toward Return of the King MB. LOTR is constant satisfying shots and goals.

I think you need the three white elf rings before mode is lit on the ring shot, but yeah...plenty to do straight away.

Ring mode is lit from ball launch...any modes after that require 3 elf rings - unless you lose the ball, then it's lit again from launch.

I think I must have changed that on mine...in any case, the point that there is plenty to do on LOTR at any given time is apparent.

I'm sure it's me. I don't have lots of games on LOTR. I can only play it on location.

But my point still stands; I still "saw" more to shoot for initially on TH than I did on LOTR.

(again, I'm sure it's me, but the me is the same on both machines)

LOTR is WAY better than Hobbit. I agree Hobbit looks better, but LOTR plays better. One of Sterns best for sure.

How much time do you have on TH with 2.0 code?

Can you elaborate? I've only put in a few games on a LOTR; is it the shots? More stuff on the playfield? Better callouts? Better overall package?

I'd have to agree with this, and I own Hobbit but not LOTR. I never really know what is going on in the Hobbit either. I know the general things that trigger the main objectives (rollovers for locks, 5 different objectives for the ruins to start mini-wizards, etc), but at any given moment in time I don't really understand what's happening. For example, I've had multiballs that last 5-10 minutes with new balls continually getting relaunched when I drain one or more. I had one go on so long I thought something was broken (maybe it was). I've had multiballs go on for quite a while with only one ball left. I assumed a ball was stuck somewhere, but once I drained, the ball was over.

For all the lights and the LCD, it is FAR, FAR, FAR inferior to LOTR at drawing you in, letting you know what to do, and making you feel part of the adventure. For example, there is nothing in TH that mimics the feel of the movie as much as Balrog multiball in LOTR. Shoot the ring to get someone across the bridge, hit Balrog to distract him / get him out of the way, so you can shoot the ring to get someone else across. It feels like the movie.

Aside from that, there just aren't any satisfying shoots in TH. I feel like I'm flailing more than anything. While some of the LOTR shots are clunky, for sure, they all feel different and connected to something tangible. None of the shots in TH feel any different from each other. The ramps feel the same. Hitting the left-most drop target doesn't feel any different than hitting the one next to it or the one 2-3 down from it.

I want to like the Hobbit, but I just don't get into it. Some of the epic multiballs can be fun, so I'm not saying I hate it, but with other upcoming things I want, Hobbit it at the top of my possible sell list due to the low obsession-to-value ratio.

I had LOTR in my collection, no one ever played it. I like it and may get another one some day.

I have a group of complete novices that play my small collection.
Always they gravitate to the hobbit.
Its amazing how much fun they have with it.
They dont know anything about the ruleset or anything about pinball at all.

There is something about the immediate rewards that the hobbit gives out.
Everyone gets a multiball, everyone likes to smash beasts, everyone loves watching each other play and also watching the big screen.
They dont care about modes or scores or flow etc. They just find it really fun.

They really like the daily high scores it make great dinner conversation at parties and BBQ's.

I have AFMr coming, we'll see how it stacks up against the hobbit.
I have a feeling the novices will still like the hobbit better, its just a beautiful adventure.

You have lots of other pinball machines - so I don't know why you would have difficulty playing the hobbit. It seems very simple to me after you get just a few games on it. It is heavy in multiballs, but they are pretty easy to grasp how they start. Smaug MB, beast MB, and mode multiballs if you lock any.

If anything I have found with TH either you love it or hate it I guess. Not much grey area...

Right!???

That too. I disabled it though because it's just my wife and I playing...]

That's becoming apparent indeed. Unfortunately, it'll narrow the buying market.

Well, I don't really love it or hate it. I do feel it lacks sorely from enough callouts. I have not played 2.0 yet, but it seems to rely too much on the book and the LCD, so when stuff happens I don't know why. And things like the multiballs going on forever just doesn't make sense. I can't really describe it, but I just feel on the outside with this game, whereas other games seem to draw me into the middle of them.

Maybe OP should include something about rebooted with 2.0

Lots of folks posting based on past experiences and older code. I upgraded but don't have but a few games on it so don't really have a good objective opinion on 2.0 yet.

Obviously code doesn't change the layout so if someone hates the layout there is just nothing gonna change that. Code can and certainly does change a player's perspective of a game.

Maybe it is just me, but the 2.0 code wasn't leaps and bounds better than 1.95 - just a bit more polish. So if you didn't like TH before 2.0, I don't think 2.0 will make you like the game. However, I think Keith will continue to add code and improve the game and I think it will become 'better' but I don't know if it will win over those who really don't like it now. Perhaps it will move TH up in the TOP 100 a few notches when it is all said and done...

That said I think it is remarkable that JJP has only 3 pins - and all 3 are in the TOP 100 in the top 30 of all time. That is rather amazing! EDIT: Well TOP 100 on Pinside only means so much...but you get my point

I have yet to play TH but really want too and have been watching these threads. I do own LOTR though and agree that people may not gravitate towards it but once I showed people the shots and explained the rules people played it almost exclusively. I also own TSPP and that along with LOTR are possibly my favorite games in my modest lineup. I think I would enjoy TH based on liking Keith's rule sets.

Let me throw some thoughts out there, see if this helps.

-The LCD may be overwhelming at first...but the game really DOESN'T rely on it. It's there for info, if you or your friends want to check it out...but you really don't need to look at it at all, honestly. For example, if a mode is ready, "MODE" is lit on the ramp. The book tells you what mode is next...you don't have to look up, even tho the LCD has an icon showing which mode is lit.

-When you're in a mode, the middle section of the LCD is pretty much like a classic DMD. There are movie clips related to your mode playing...which change when you hit things (just like animation on a DMD), like a DMD game - if you don't look up at the animation, you're not really missing anything important. In a mode the Book is essentially the same as the TV in TSPP...it lets you know how much time is left & offers info about shots/points)

-The info on the 4 corners of the LCD is pretty much all visible from the playfield. You can see which Dwarves you've collected (Purple are uncollected, white are collected). You can see your Smaug Locks w/ the green inserts above the flippers. You can see which Beasts you've collected if the yellow insert in front of them is lit. I forget if there's a cue for completing Erebor (spinners) ....so maybe you have to glance up on that one....I think the inserts might light up or strobe or something to let you know Erebor is completed.

-The reason MB's are going on forever: There is a grace period...so, if you drain too quickly it'll kick balls out to continue the MB. You started one MB (Smaug, for example)...then stacked another one (Beast).....or, you got an Add-a-ball from the Mystery target. That's all I can think of offhand...but, it's nothing out of the ordinary compared to other games.

***I've brought this up before, but go into your settings and change Beasts to HARD ...this makes it so it takes longer to qualify them, which means you won't get their MB so easily, which means you're not as likely to stack it with Smaug as much, which means MB's are less likely to go on forever.

I don't have enough games on Hobbit to make a comparison, but there's no shame in being judged a lesser game to LOTR, it's a Top Five game for a reason.

Every multiball gives you a shot at add-a-ball with the Beorn target...and I think they can stack.

Edit: Plus kickbacks.

Exacly what happened at my place. The girls love it. The novices gravitate to it. And I get lost in an endless sea of multiballs. Mind you it is a gorgeous well built machine with amazing features, sound and colors.

I just had a conversation yesterday with one of my novice players about why they like the hobbit.

I was told that it seems simpler and less intimidating, the wide body gives them more time to react so its less "blink of an eye and the ball is gone".
They LOVE the music and colors. They LOVE the LCD screen and wish all games had it.

They also love my WOZ but say its a very hard game and prefer the hobbit for now.

I think they like the ball times. Even a total novice can get 3 min ball times on the hobbit.

I have never been more on the fence about a pin. There is so much good and bad about the design of it. My kids both want it, they only played our WOZ for the first week we had it and didn't touch it again - it was way too hard for them and they couldn't follow the complex rules. The Hobbit rules seem easier to follow and they can keep the ball going easily.

I remember watching someone on location that seemed like a total novice. He kept pumping quarters into it, he kept saying how much he enjoyed it. He also had decent ball times. He played Spider-Man right next to it and his game lasted about 20% as long. I wonder on location if it just gives people the feeling they get more for their money.

Exactly what I think. Novice players young and old get more out of the time spent.
And kids love to bash the monsters! The more the better!

Experts will get deep into the ruleset and the billiards type of accuracy required, novices just have a blast on it.
So, theres something for everyone IMO...

Dangit, had another pin in mind for my next one, now I am also considering Hobbit - AGAIN. Thought Hobbit was out of my system. I had my 7 year old watch Hobbit, and the other pin I have in mind. We watched gameplay video for about half an hour, he wouldn't budge from the Hobbit.

The best games engage both novice and advanced players.

IMHO the Hobbit succeeds with novice players and with some additional rules will succeed with advanced players.

Almost done with work....gonna have to get some time on my Hobbit. Haven't hardly been playing any pinball lately. Sounds like a good way to spend Friday night.

Added back in. Great game.

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