I don't see it in terms of what is on the playfield. It is simply demand versus supply. There is a lot of demand for a flow-type game with a solid theme. Flow usually equates to simplicity on the playfield as toys and mini-playfields tend to slow things down. If there is a lot of demand for a flow-type pin and not many are being produced, then the cost can be higher even if less is seemingly provided. Since there are currently few new pins that offer simplicity and excitement, the cost premium is substantial. I would bet you would admit that ST is fast and exciting, even though it may not be your style of pin. I think Stern simply sees the price as something they can charge due to demand; it has nothing to do with populating the playfield to them.
When (if) Hobbit comes out, there will be flow-oriented pins from two companies going "mano e mano", but of course the ST will then be dated; again not a completely fair fight. Personally I would love to have seen the Hobbit and ST come out at the same time. Then we would see who is truly the king (at least in terms of flow pins).

While I think flow is important I think there are enough left ramp, right ramp and sideways middle ramp games out there.

Why should I pay $7k for ST Premium or almost $8k for an LE when my ACDC Premium and STTNG have almost exactly the same layout? For me to shell out that type of money I want a loaded game with lots of toys and at least a somewhat unique layout. Don't get me wrong I think ST is awesome and yes it has great flow but that only gets you so far in the $7k+ range. Some people say ACDC Pro has better flow then the premium model but would you pay $6.5k for it? No. There are a lot of people that want the extra toys, drop targets, mini playfields, underground playfields, etc. I think there's room for both types of games.

JJP offers something new in my mind with lots of toys that interact with the ball. WOZ is just different then a lot of games and with a small collection variety is really important to me. I'm planning on buying a Hobbit for the same reason. TH won't be your typical left ramp right ramp game with its divertor, multiple pop ups, possibly trap doors, and other very interactive toys like Samug will likely be. Seems like The Hobbit will have great flow but also be a shooters game which sounds great to me.

By the time the Hobbit ships in Dec. 2014, Stern will be on it's 3rd, post-Star Trek Pin. From everything we've heard from Steve Ritchie and others, Stern will be on the new system boards and LCD by then as well.

So it will be a fair fight! Exciting times!

I really hope so, but i am afraid not.

when the hobbit delivers, it will take millions out of the marcets pocket. And i even think when the hobbit is succesfull, they also will seel more woz pins, even after a few years.

Code is the key player atm.

Yet those who own ST indicate that it does not necessarily remind them of those games. I would agree that the position of a ramp's inflow often means more than the ramp's outflow. The inflow determines your aim; the outflow determines how you will have to react to a shot. Changing the outflow is not sufficient in my mind to justify the purchase of a pin, nor is the addition of different sounds and lights. A little more creativity is preferred. I am impressed with Joe Balcer's designs. He does seem to be thinking "outside the box" more than others.

PanzerFreak, given your statements, I would dare say that you are not the intended market of Stern. They do not have to sell to all of us, just enough of us.

I will indeed look forward to this. The best of JJP going head to head with the best of Stern ... the fanboys be damned.

And the winner is........us!

I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. Competition benefits the purchaser. Let them fight for our money.

It will be very interesting to see what Stern prices the next gen LE games at. By then we will be getting our Hobbits that we bought early at $7500 (you can still find that price for one if you ask). Stern certainly will not price their next gen LEs at less than the current STLE.
So where is it going to end now that the bubble is starting to deflate?

Perhaps Stern will learn the hard way that you cannot ask your customers to fully fund development of the first generation of a new product. Let's hope that they recognize the glass ceiling of acceptable pin prices before they break through it.

The expenses of the next generation pin from Stern should be considered the cost of remaining relevant. It will lower their profit temporarily but improve their position longer term. You have to wonder if the recent influx of new pinball manufacturers is a result of potential competitors sensing weakness and a lack of ingenuity. Stern's current position may not be tenable in a few years unless they evolve.

Yup, again I agree with your main points. And demand can guide future efforts; however, many people were not thrilled by the increased price and decreased feature set of ST. The real test will be to see how people feel about the game in 6-12 months after the software has matured and the "new toy" effect has faded.

Although I would note that games like WPT or LOTR aren't nearly as "simple" but have great flow. Yes, ST is very fast, but no, I personally don't find it exciting. In fact, the fungible modes felt tedious and generic, partially due to the limited number of shots--fast shots, true, but very limited. I guess I like more variety and satisfaction in my pin layouts. Yes, ST is very fast and flowy, but that is mainly because there is so little on the pf that the shot entrances are wider. Compare the ramp entrances on ST to those on SM, for example. I also like innovation in pinball, and ST has zilch. Adding some cheap lighting effects is not innovative, I'm afraid.

I think you have the companies mixed up.
When did Stern ever ask for or require prepayment for any game ?
Some distributors will gladly take money and orders but as far as I know its not at the factories direction.

I only know of one start-up company that seems to have financed its operations on pre-orders and late delivery.
Until that company establishes itself in the market place Stern will likely continue on with its business model that has kept it going for many years.

The "other" manufacturer is scheduled to re-make games under an existing copyright. Not exactly new offerings and a custom shop IMHO over a business with original titles and engineering.

The two active manufacturers with original product is Stern and JJP. One is well established and the other is trying to establish market share and a presence. Both make good products and hopefully continue to do so.

I just looked at your profile of games. I see you do not own a Stern LE.
When you order or "preorder" a Stern LE you are usually asked by your distributor for a down payment to lock in a title and reserve a game. When the announcement is made for a title "officially" there is a grace period that the distributor has to place the orders and pay for inventory. Pre ordering gets a discount by a few $100 dollars to the customer. That's why you preorder to get a good price. Some dealers request full payment at the time of ordering some don't I would imagine it depends on their financial situation and a good banker. But either way Stern gets PAID months before an LE ships.

hi,

any new information about the Hobbit LE machine?
i might be interested in it, but at this price… would be nice to know more.

thx,
bb

Its not exclusive to the LE, if a game is deemed popular some distributors WILL take an order (and money) while others are content to order "X" number of units and sell at retail. I think its already established Stern is not floating its future game development on selling spots and collecting money for nonexistent games. Putting a deposit down is fair and reasonable, paying in full is nuts IMHO.

Companies set policy for the sale and distribution of its products.
If a distributor acts in a manner that the company takes issue with they can change policy if deemed necessary.

Since we are basically talking about two production companies here the marketing difference is pretty clear and contrast each other.
It will be interesting to see which model works best and for whom in the long run.

More info coming soon around the time the second movie comes out.

I think you misunderstood my point, and I actually agree with much of what you said. JJP never hid that they intended to fund development with early payments. In fact, the argument can be made that the purchasers of WOZ were given a discount on a product that would clearly have cost more had it already been made by a reputable company. Imagine, for a second, the price that WOZ would have cost should it have been produced by Stern (quality notwithstanding).
Now imagine that Stern is going to upgrade its platform so that it can match or better JJP's platform. Since they would be switching from an existing platform and manufacturing line that is engineered for their old platform, the cost is likely to be greater than that faced by JJP. That cost will have to be absorbed somehow. Stern (inclined to raise prices because they can ... see my earlier post) may wish to increase their prices to maintain the profit margin earned on pins like ST. Lower profit margins mean unhappy investors which Gary now has to manage along with the pin market.
My hope, like yours, is to have two flourishing pin makers. Competition is better for us than it is for them. My concern, which may be misplaced, is that a new platform at Stern is used to justify even more price increases. My personal belief is that the current glass ceiling for pin prices is around $8k, and we have already seen one company attempt to breach that with very mixed results. Perhaps Stern is best served accepting that they can be second place in terms of technology and still do well. However, rarely do we see companies pursue that position.

Sorry, the only "good price" I've ever seen on a Stern LE is the NIB LOTR LE I purchased for $5100, delivered. These days they add a couple of HUNDRED dollars' worth of parts/cosmetics to their Pro games to make an LE, and charge 2-3 THOUSAND dollars more as a markup. So even a few hundred dollar discount is not a good price in my book. Premium markups are also excessive, but not as ridiculously so. (Sorry, I call 'em like I see 'em, and STILL not a fan of Stern's playfield differentiation in the Pro vs. Premium/LE.)

True, but this is the distributor taking your pre-order, not Stern, and a deposit to secure a large purchase is common in most markets. Paying in full up front isn't but it can happen, but in my experience the product or service is like, maybe 30 days away? Personally I've never seen a full pre-pay and wait for years for a product or service, but maybe I'm overlooking a really obvious example.

Stern says no to pre-payment:

“We only accept deposits from our direct authorized distributors and dealers for confirmed orders on games we have publicly announced and that are soon to be produced,” added Stern. “We have never and will not accept deposits for games we have not announced that are not nearing production.”

Stern uses its distributor network to sell parts & games.

JJP & Pinball Sales Inc. are two different entities on paper but are basically one & the same.

Quite correct. It is their distributors who accept deposits in advance. It would seem to be necessary for them to guess at how many games to order from Stern for inventory after the guaranteed sales from early purchasers who get a discount.

There is ZERO difference when an "authorized distributor" is willing to fork over "300k upfront upon the announcement of a licensed title" versus "ghost zombies from hell" or whatever Stern said....

And then they ask for deposits from the customer....

Like Cal says, "it always nice to have options / alternatives" referring to "Luci"

You have 2 options with JJP:

1. Pay on the installment method OR

2. Pay when the pin is completed, lump sum, after you play it and its available.

Tough to figure? After all, good to have another pinball competitor, like it or not.

First Hobbit Desolation of Smaug review I've read. Great review This is good news for JJP and owners of the pin that the second film is being reviewed much better then the first.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/12/07/the-hobbit-the-desolation-of-smaug-review

Man would love to see a HOBBIT UPDATE

I'm sure next week as the movie hits.

The last movie was dated next year on about this time aint it?

But on ministry of pinball, the dutch pin seller, i see the hobbit will be out summer 2014.

I hope they are right. This is for me the most anticipated pin ever.

Until the last movie got pushed later, we would have seen the pin sooner. Moving the movie later moved the pin later.

LTG : )

Just saw Desolation of Smaug (spoiler alert!), and...

the dragon talks a ton, so wonder if it'll do that in the pin as well? And how articulated he might be like the OP posted when asking if Smaug might be a bit Rudy-like in his interaction with the player...

that should be cool but how will voice rights be?

I would think that the pin will use actual lines from the films. Wizard of Oz seems to have a mix of original lines from the film and custom voice work considering that the main actors in the film are now deceased.

Let's just hope that JJP can at least get one of the main actors to do some custom call out work for The Hobbit.

The voice of Smaug is awesome and I think that the pin will be loaded with lines from him.

I sure hope you are right and I 100% agree, but I think I read somewhere that they were NOT going to have the actors voice that played Bilbo.

Maybe it will resemble the boxer from Champion Pub....

Yeah, I bet Martin Freeman would be pricey. Would be awesome though!

The four actors below are the major characters of all three films and whose voices would be most well known when hearing them in the game. I would think if anyone is going to do custom voice work for JJP that it would be one of the following.

1. Ian McKellen: Gandalf
2. Martin Freeman: Bilbo
3. Richard Armitage: Thorin
4. Benedict Cumberbatch: voice of Smaug

Also, did anyone else catch Peter Jackson's cameo at the beginning of the film?

It would be really cool if Smaug glowed like the Balrog did on LOTR. Notice when Smaug is about to spit fire his body would light up.................that is what I call a perfectly opportunity for JJP.

Yeah totally noticed that - he was the first human you see in the film I think

Maybe a secret Stephen Colbert voice. He made a cameo in Laketown

desolation-of-smaug-stephen-colbert.jpg

Seems odd that a machine titled, 'The Hobbit' wouldn't include the original voice of 'The Hobbit'.

Yeah, as soon as it happened you heard a rumbling in the theatre...."wasn't that..." ..."did you see..."