+1 to this

As I said above, Stern releases everything a couple months before release. I don't see why JJP wouldn't do mostly the same. Dropping breadcrumbs every now and then is a necessity due to the long production interval, but showing stuff right now won't generate sales, just hype, which may or may not be changed or altered by delivery time.

I would expect nothing more than some art assets, and maybe a toy or two to be shown in the coming 6 months. The hype needs to stay level for 12 months. If it spikes now, by the time the machine comes out the hype will die down and there won't be anything else to show.

Assuming the machine releases XMas 2014, I would think a 90% full reveal would be Nov timeframe (exactly a year from today-ish), license permitting (third movie stuff would remain hidden, but driving sales will require some sort of reveal then). The advantage license-wise is that the first two movies can be represented in the physical machine and the LCD adding content from the third movie.

I believe we experienced changes in WOZ as the process went along, no need to stir up bellyaching later on by releasing something ealy that doesn't get put into the final product.

What specifics Alex? I'm asking for very general information. Will the game have a topper? Will the topper be interactive? Will the game have another wooden apron? Will it have the same sound system as WOZ? Will it come with a shaker motor? Is JJP working to change the backglass around the LCD? (to give it an irregular border). Will the LE have unique cabinet artwork? Will the LE have a unique backglass?

All of these are Yes/No questions that are in no way IP related and have nothing to with the direction of the movies. What is so crucial about this type of information that Stern will really care about? Because knowing the answers to these basic questions means a LOT to me, the customer, and reminds me of why I've put money down 2 years in advance just to have an LE of this game.

I'm not asking to SEE anything. Just tell me the definition of this "limited edition" game please. Customers don't deserve at least that much?

Spoiler alert!

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/h/the-hobbit/book-summary

Ok, can we get some more details now?

The answer is WHO KNOWS? The WoZ LE topper changed 60 days before shipping. Things change. You are asking for specifics whether you realize it or not.

General information: It's a pinball machine, will have an LCD, will have 4 legs, a plunger, some balls, definitely a few flippers, i would bet 4 legs, and a few slingshots.

Anything else is up in the air until it's not and providing anything more specific only to have it change causes unnecessary drama. Unlike most companies we generally learn from our mistakes and take feedback and do our best to implement it where warranted.

Instead of asking, why not recommend? "Hey I think it would be cool if xxxxx" TONS of those ended up in woz. Because we thought they were cool too and one of those, why didn't i think of that??

I'll recommend. Hey, I think it would be cool if the upper flippers actually had something interesting to shoot at. Perhaps a ramp in the right or something. Its not fun to shoot at target banks. From what I can see, the two upper flippers appear to be there just to be there. All shots can be hit with lower flippers. And no flow shots with uppers. A big bummer.

I'm hoping that there is some kind of secondary playfield that you just can't see on that picture somewhere. And if not... I am recommending it Preferably one that you can actually have an effect on other than nudging the machine (i.e. path of the dead)

Who knows. Jack did say at Expo something along the lines of that Hobbits live in the ground and that there's a lot going on underground (underneath) The Hobbit pinball machine.

Oh hell, are we going to have to drop to our knees to play a mini game under the table?! Revolutionary!!

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Enter%20the%20Dungeon&set=unhinged

jk

It could be a mini playfield inside the cabinet with a video camera and you see whats going on using the LCD screen.

First, I have sent dozens of suggestions Alex. They always "get passed along". Fine. BUT ... one more suggestion. If it's so easy for JJP to commit to a price tag 2 years in advance, I think they should commit to a small number of features that will make this "limited edition" especially unique.

Apparently.... from "interactive" to "non-interactive"

You are definitely correct in not listing details now, considering how things were nerfed from WOZ over the two years of development. Munchkin features went from dedicated lit inserts, to LEDs on a sign, to simply changing the color of one insert (no more sign) .. bumper trees got their lit eyes gouged out by wiring issues, etc. Stuff happens

This was the first thought i had when i saw the pf design.
Finally i see someone that has the same opinion as me on this matter.

I don't like woz because i don't like the theme at all, but the pin seems amazing. Hobbit will probably be an amazing pin with a license i love.. so i can't wait to see it.. in late 2014

knee-jerk reaction? That would be kinda lame and really annoying to troubleshoot/work on.

Lets say the answer to all of that is YES. What changes for you? You either pre-order or don't. Now 12 months from now it all changed unpredictably (or maybe didn't) and you either acquire a machine or don't, whether it's pre ordered or not.

Lets say the answer to all of that is NO. What changes for you? You either pre-order or don't. Now 12 months from now it all changed unpredictably (or maybe didn't) and you either acquire a machine or don't, whether it's pre ordered or not.

In either case JJP has little to gain from you, and has a lot to lose if they reveal things that don't make it in, or blow all the hype building surprises 12 months early. Look at all the crap the STLE redesign of the VUK caused. If we never knew the VUK was originally shooting up the warp ramp everyone wouldn't have known what they were missing - who knows how much damage this little change did, and it really didn't need to be public if things went the way Stern would have wanted. JJP is trying to avoid this same over-promise issue

What is so crucial about this type of information that Stern will really care about?

I don't see anyone claiming Stern is the reason. Some people want Stern to step up to meet JJP's challenge, but I honestly don't think JJP are worried in this regard (nor really should they be imo) as I don't think Stern will care except to add bling and cost to their games which they are going to do anyway at this point.

Because knowing the answers to these basic questions means a LOT to me, the customer, and reminds me of why I've put money down 2 years in advance just to have an LE of this game. I'm not asking to SEE anything. Just tell me the definition of this "limited edition" game please. Customers don't deserve at least that much?

Apparently not. Pull your pre order if its a big deal. It's painfully clear to me that the incentive for an LE with 'something' unique is intended to outweigh the fact that your money is tied up for 2 years. People are complaining about Stern not finishing code for a year, or people with pre orders for STLE waiting and waiting for a few months to see a VUK get altered and those complainers are now claiming to be pulling their dollars from this LE pre-order stuff to wait for an actual tangible and complete game to play. JJP is no different here - I'm thinking of buying a Hobbit, but I will wait until the machine is at my distributor to pull the trigger. Either do the same, or gamble on your LE add-ons.

It's not JJP's job to make sure your money is well spent. It's their job to provide an incentive for you to part with your cash, which to this point you have clearly said 'yes' to by giving them cash.

JJP "has little to gain from me"?? Huh? If JJP doesn't NEED my money then why pre-sell games 2 years in advance?? If they DO need my money then throw me a bone and commit to a few special items/features that you'll put on this game and no other version of the game. They had NO problem commiting to a price 2 years in advance ... we know that certainly won't change except to go higher. I feel like I did get a little screwed on WOZ (especially by the announcement of the 75th anniversary edition) and it would be nice to hear how things with Hobbit will be different.

It is a big deal Purple and I AM selling my Hobbit pre-order because I can't hear any details.

I think he was talking about the hobbit layout.

The problem here is when all the shots that the top flippers are supposed to make are doable with the lower flippers. That's zero exclusive shots for the top flippers, which imo makes them less interesting.
Having a top flipper just to easily make a shot that is doable with the lower flipper kinda sucks imo... sounds like 80's old school

Sorry to hear that but information will come when a definitive decision is made, design on a specific piece is solidified and details are locked in and even THEN things may change. Not a minute before hand.

I'll answer yes to all your questions and be disingenuous if that's what you want but that's not my deal.

Some of the things you can derive yourself without needing to ask questions like will the LE have a shaker? I would bet it would.

The mystery of what is under those 4 flaps may include some other shots for those upper flippers not seen in a game before, just speculating.

I never said they needed or didnt need you. I said they have little to gain at this point from you - and you conveniently ignored all the loss and trouble JJP could expect from pre-mature reveals. Pre orders minimum payment to now is what 2k? 2.5k? In the grand scheme this doesn't amount to much, but a late game altered feature could cost them dozens of purchases at the last minute just because they "lied" or "deceived" people - surely you can see such things being posted on forums?

What you are referring to is ALL customers pulling their pre-orders which doesn't seem to be happening? Just because YOU want something, doesnt mean JJP closes its doors because you decide to not invest in an LE

They had NO problem commiting to a price 2 years in advance ...

Neither did you.

we know that certainly won't change except to go higher. I feel like I did get a little screwed on WOZ (especially by the announcement of the 75th anniversary edition) and it would be nice to hear how things with Hobbit will be different.

So you're upset about a perk of pre-ordering - getting a lower price...?

So you got "screwed" by the 75th WoZ - pull your pre order like everyone who gets "screwed" by Stern is supposedly doing too.

It would be nice to hear how Hobbit will be different except... who said it would be different? Maybe it plays out exactly the same? Maybe not? JJP probably doesnt even know at this point.

It is a big deal Purple

No it isn't, it's pinball. Typhoons are a big deal. This is a hobby.

and I AM selling my Hobbit pre-order because I can't hear any details.

So after all this you decide to sell your machine/spot and prove nothing - JJP doesn't suffer due to a pre-order being dropped and a refund issued, and you sell a pre order proving that your dissatisfaction is irrelevant because someone will fill your pre-order boots.

Pinchroma, I don't usually 'get along' with all of your posts but this is a great one. Well put.

I don't see much bashing. Some complaining that the very info you were prodding for isn't available already, but to answer your first question.... No. But if it's any consolation the same happens in stern threads. It seems like all machines released these days are the worst/best machines evar!

OK, ok. civil You don't have to put any money down in advance, much less 2 years in advance. That is your "feeling" and not reality. Many people bought WOZ LEs just recently. And there will be Hobbit LEs available when the game is released, as with pretty much any title. Do you not understand the WOZ early prepayment (and many delays) was a unique startup situation? You an probably preorder a Hobbit LE now, about 1 year before delivery. Or wait until the middle of next year--someone will have one for sale.

As for the aesthetics, you misread my comment I did not joke about or emphasize the "plastic" material aspect of toys. I stated, and I quote (myself): Aesthetics of recent Stern games look to me like "cheap-looking plasticy pin(s) with a couple of afterthought/low-budget toys stuck on...." The overly-bright lights and weak artwork (MET excepted) and general construction in games like ST, Avatar, Tron etc. just look cheap. And stuff like the laughable cannon and TNT box on ACDC--a few cheap plastics with rivets and screws everywhere! Compare that stuff to the highly detailed Dorothy house in WOZ. (No, really, look at it closely. And then look at the ADC "cannon"!) The bumper trees--which are pretty much the trees in the movie--and 3 different trees, not just 3 of the same one. The Munchkin houses over the ball lock. Yup, the crystal ball is cool--I hope it works more into gameplay in future software revs. The melting witch and lit-up Wizard head? Sure, simply ornamental. But taken together, all this stuff gives the feel of a small world under the glass. Look at a WOZ next to a ST or Tron or similar game. I see a real difference there in terms of aesthetic feel.

And the castle doors-two of them that can register hits, open to reveal a saucer, and close. Right there you have more interactive toys than on all of ST (one drop target with magnet under a ship toy that the ball never touches). Diverter and ball lock built into the ramp,and the house actually spins. The monkey lock stays true to the theme, and is a nice animated way to bring the ball up to lock it in the castle, in keeping with the movie plot. Add a standup target called the "Winkie guard" target that you have to knock down to get to the vuk entrance to the castle, the house that you have to circle/spin enough times (twister mode) to start a Munchkin mode, etc., and you have a lot of game elements that really tie in with the theme, not generic pinball elements that you could slap any theme onto. (This is one of the things that disappoints me about ST, btw: replace the spaceship with a different toy and you could put any theme on this game. The playfield shots and features and fungible modes are generic and don't relate to the theme at all. Shoot the same colored/flashing inserts and there's a space ladder on the DMD for this mode, Klingon ships for that mode, a space ladder for that other mode, etc.)

Yeah, I am just spitballing here. Not saying its a good idea. WOZ has, what 2 mini playfields? Some 3rd dimension of somekind would be nice I think.

Well that doesn't surprise me....."dozens of suggestions".......

No offense Crazy, but hey, I don't see how Jack or Gary puts up with the amount of BS they have to deal with from some of the lunatics without blowing their brains out!

Ah, makes sense, not sure why I was thinking WOZ.

And Stern required full payment for STLE before any video of the game was seen and with vague descriptions of the specifics on it. And that was somewhere under 60 days before shipping started. So what JJP has given us so far is more than what Stern gave STLE buyers. Its the industry standards right now.

You should be respecting JJP's commitment to protect the integrity of the game as it progresses through its development stages instead of attempting to undermine his business plan.

In retrospect you should really just get your deposit back. If you are this pissed off at this stage on this game you will drive yourself over the edge long before it gets shipped.

I am not going to argue against your points ... I think they are well made. However, for someone that enjoys pins where the shots flow, WOZ falls short of ST. That may be rectified in the Hobbit as the promise was for more flow. In that respect, the nonexistent (at this time) Hobbit might be the best comparison to ST.

Jack could build only one pin first (stating the obvious). He chose to create WOZ more in the image of TZ than SM. I, for one, am glad that my preference for a flowing pin was not fulfilled by a theme that I do not fully appreciate. Hobbit has a theme and apparent flow that is attractive to me. That said, I appreciate WOZ for what it is ... and what it is not. The same can be said about ST.

What I come away with from your argument more than anything else is the price point comparison, and I would guess that we both see this as personal preference. Some are willing to pay more for the toys and LCD in WOZ; some are willing to pay more for the simplicity and excitement of ST. Niches for everyone.

On an aside, is it anyone else's opinion that the spiraling wireform around Smaug might be at least partially under a "mountain like" structure and not visible to the player? That would provide a place for a ball lock and a potential staging point for the Smaug mechanism to access balls. I can't see a spiraling wireform in any other way as it just slows down the flow. There is some other reason for this structure.

That would indeed be interesting, but also contradict the large "SMAUG" characters on the playfield design. I am curious on which character takes the place of the witch in the center of the LCD. I cannot imagine Keith and the team throwing out that innovation as it does add substantially to the experience. Smaug is computer-generated and more easily produced; Bilbo or Gandalf would require the actor. Perhaps Smaug is represented in more than one place, much like the witch in WOZ.

I think there will be a magnet in the dragons mouth, and he'll pick up/stop balls on the spiral wire form.

There's also 3 targets that drop like attack from mars under the dragon. Their could be a lock under him

It looks like there are 5 drops in front of the dragon (S-M-A-U-G, I assume), with what appears to be a scoop behind the first two, and 3 stand-ups behind the other three.

Has Stern ever released a playfield schematic like this? I love that thing, and can speculate about it for hours.

Also, how in the world are you supposed to hit the lower banks of drops? It looks like the slings are in the way from the lower flippers.

Huh? My buddy just picked up a STLE and paid last week. Stern didn't require cash 60 days ago.

Stern has gone on record saying they don't officially endorse or condone pre-orders. It's distributors doing what you are describing.

Considering the studio had to add enough content to expand the <300 page book into 7+ hours of film, I can see why there is some secrecy.

You could have "Drain Cam" where a camera in the backbox takes a short video of you when the ball drains and then plays it back on the LCD screen for everyone to watch in a slow motion replay.

Yes I am joking, but it would be kind of funny

Gary doesn't know how to use the internets

On a side note I just watched The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey again for the first time since seeing it last year in theaters. Did anyone else originally see the first film in HFR 48fps 3D? I did and for me I personally didn't like how fluid the movie looked as it was almost like watching TV and seemed too quick. Watching it on BluRay at a normal rate of 24fps was great and I enjoyed the film much more. Can't wait for the second film on the 13th along with hopefully some new details on the pinball machine

Has anyone gotten started on building this as a virtual pinball table? I think that would be interesting.

I saw it at 48fps 2d and it made me nearly hurl. Had to watch it at the normal speed but I suspect with 4k looming you will see more movies at the higher fps. Why I don't know.

I wonder how much of the third movie will make it in the game, will here be a battle of five armies MB mode?

Entrance to the underworld caves.

You can easily see that there is either stand up targets behind the drop targets in that drawing.
Example of other games that used this: Cyclopes, Defender, or Class of 1812. Or it could be a moving target behind it or an opening to another passageway like Judge Dredd or IJ.

Just call jack directly if you have any questions or concerns. He likes to talk pinball.

I totally agree with your main points. Some games are flow-oriented (like ACDC, ST), and some are not (WOZ, TZ). Hobbit will likely have more flow than WOZ. It is a matter of personal preference; I personally feel that the majority of (posting) pinsiders insist on flow as the #1 aspect of any pin, to the exclusion of other pinball features/quality.

I dunno about "paying for simplicity" though. Put less on a playfield and charge less. If anything, don't try to jutify charging *more* for less, as Stern is doing with ST. If you want a great flowing game with somewhat "less" on the pf (and yet also more at the same time) and a deep, fully-realized and polished rule set, why not pick up a WPT for thousands less? Many people here seem to feel that adding a bunch of "cutouts" and cheap over-bright LEDs to a game justify a price increase well into 4 figures. I find that silly.

The flaps aren't a mystery. Balcer has said they are Williams' Troll Mechs.

http://www.pinball-magazine.com/?p=1449

Smaug is in the air now. Just released yesterday
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hobbit-dragon-smaug-first-full-660857

hobbit.jpg