Congrats Kaneda! Awesome car.

The Hellcat I test drove was white. White looks even better in person. It shows off the lines of the car well.

5 year 100,000 mile warranty on the 2015's. That's amazing to have that kind of warranty on a 700+ HP motor with a blower on it.

For 2016, they reduced the warranty to 50k miles I believe.

Not consistent with anything I've heard. We have a great insider who posts on the Hellcat forum.

Yep, this rumor has merit. Just a matter of when it will happen. People are clamoring for the 'Cuda, and considering how well Challenger's have sold, it seems like a no brainer.

Fun thread about an awesome car with 707 HP from the factory, and Alex comes in as the biggest buzz kill ever....over window tinting?! WTF?

Whew! For a minute there I was worried you might engage in hyperbole!

Actually if they wanted to be dicks, yes, they could have given you a ticket for that. It's considered an "exhibition of speed" which is basically a way to ticket you even if you aren't exceeding the speed limit.

Yes, and they are way easier to get than the automatic 8 speed, which is in high demand and low in supply.

It really is very high, and it bugged me a lot. It was embarrassing to get in the car for a test drive and stall it going out of the parking lot because of the engagement point being so high.

Pot calling the kettle black?

What year is your IS-F Dave?

Been considering looking at Lexus as it might be a bit more practical. My daughter will be getting a car within the year, so I don't know if I want to have two cars (a daily driver and the weekend/sports car) like I have in the past.

Was looking at the Lexus RC F, but if I am going to spend that money, I'd need to look at the M4 as well. Then again, I don't know if either of those is any more practical than a Hellcat would be.

Might consider going with a used one. This looks cool:

ebay.com link: Lexus IS F

It's probably just overpriced. There is no ISF in the current lineup. And I agree about the 2 door thing, which again defeats the purpose of looking for something more practical.

In doing my research for a new car, I did find one that fits what I personally prefer in a sports car: small/lightweight, and a mid engine layout (but not at all practical):

Not sure what I think about it only coming with an auto tranny though.

Maybe I should just hold out for the return of the Guilia then?!

The Hellcat is not out of the running. But I am slowing down and need to consider all of my options. I'm likely to wait until the first half of next year before buying another car. This will give me the chance to see what the 2016 Hellcat rollout is like, and hopefully the stupid ADM's of $10k to $20k will be gone.

Lightweight sports cars will always be what I enjoy the most, but I've had more than my share of them which is why I am considering a muscle car this time around, like the Hellcat.

Which model?

Since we have some WRX / Sti fans here, what do you guys think of the upcoming Focus RS?

345 HP from a 4 banger is pretty damn impressive. Love the fact that it's AWD. Decent gas mileage and 4 doors too, so it's more practical for a daily driver.

Funny, I'm not a Ford guy either. I've never owned a Ford, including cars that my wife has had.

But the Focus RS definitely has my interest for a daily driver.

Uh oh. What problems have they had?

I was hoping it would be something that has nothing in common with the RS. The RS will not have an automatic offered as an option.

The handling of an AWD car is very confident inspiring! I have driven EVOs and I will never forget what a completely different feel it had compared to a RWD car. At first I actually wasn't sure that I liked it, but that didn't last long at all. So yeah, I agree completely with the term "confidence" that the AWD platform brings.

And adding more HP and Torque over what the older EVO had will really help take advantage of the AWD system and all it has to offer.

I've read about the limited number that will be coming in 2016. More ADM! Ugh. Every single car that I get interested in has dealers marking them up well over sticker: Hellcat, Alfa Romeo 4C, Porsche Cayman GT4, Focus RS.

Does that mean I have good taste in cars? Or the opposite: I go with what everyone else wants?

That will suck if that's true. One thing I like about the Hellcat is the fact that Dodge finally did a good job of updating the interior. The prior Challengers interior wasn't very good.

I am glad to hear that it has nice seats though, that's the most important and I can forgive some shortcomings in things like the dash. Stereo's can be replaced, but I probably wouldn't bother in a car like this. I don't expect it to be a quiet car. It comes down to what my priorities are. If I want a super nice interior that's quiet so I can enjoy a nice stereo, I'd probably want a Lexus.

I like what you added Rick! I just think the stock interior of the previous Challenger wasn't as nice as what they have now. It needed to be improved and it was.

Congrats! That's awesome. I know guys who ordered back in November of 2014 and they never got their Hellcat. Now they are in line for a 2016.

The thought of having more than 700hp on an AWD vehicle is extremely appealing. But putting it in the Grand Cherokee SRT is obviously going to cost more than $65k.

The starting MSRP for the current Grand Cherokee SRT is already $65k. So add the Hellcat motor and the new 8 speed tranny, I'm thinking you will be getting close to $80k pretty quickly. That's twice the cost of the Focus RS.

The Focus RS will only come in 4 colors: black, white, grey, or supersonic blue. Black is out (I've had my share of black cars, and they just aren't worth the trouble of maintaining). I still can't decide if I like the blue. The Grey looks pretty nice.

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The funny thing with your statement is the fact that, if anything, the Focus RS is disappointingly "big" in terms of weight. It's going to be about 3500 pounds, which is 1500 pounds heavier than my Lotus was, 650 pounds heavier than my Porsche Spyder, and 700 pounds heavier than my RX-7.

I know that AWD system will add weight, but that car should be lighter than it is.

Yep!

It will only be available in stick, when it's available next spring.

People on the Focus forums believe that it will be available in limited supply, and ADM's will apply.

Yeah, I am really surprised (and turned off) by the weight of the RS.

345 hp from a 4 banger is very impressive, but it would be put to much better use if the car was a lot lighter.

The problem for me with the Mercedes is that I don't care for the looks, and it will be around $15k or more than the RS.

And the one that's in there now has received really bad reviews.

I don't need/want leather, so it prices out to exactly $38k for me. The weight is a turn off for sure, just doesn't seem like this type of car should way that much.

Sti is a car I need to look into a little more, but my wife doesn't like the looks of them at all. And yes, her opinion counts.

I'm open to any other suggestions for cars that I should consider. I'm actually pretty open in terms of what direction I will go. The RS is appealing because it's a sporty car with 4 doors that comes in at less than $40k.

What about the EVO? Is it disappearing altogether?

Wow! That proto of the STi looks sweet. Too bad that it doesn't look more like that. I'd be seriously interested.

Do you have a link?

AWD probably isn't going to make for exciting video as there isn't going to be much hanging of the tail.

Edit: found the video. Ive seen it before. I don't think you can tell much of anything from that.

I did some research on this car previously (it's a 4 door with a big motor so it appealed to me as being a bit more practical than one of my typical 2 seaters). Bottom line: way too expensive for what it is. Too many better options for the money in my opinion.

So the VW Golf R400 is something a friend told me to look into. I really dislike the looks of the Golf R, so I thought this was a non-starter, but the R400 will look a lot better with just some minor tweaks with an aero package. 400 HP on a AWD car? Yes, I am interested.

Sadly, it appears the price will be $55k. Sorry, not buying a VW Golf for $55k.

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So the STi is no longer offered in a hatchback?

I'm suddenly becoming very interested in the STi. I think my wife will just have to get over the looks. lol

Sounds like Subaru might put a different engine in the STi in 2017 though? Might be worth waiting?

Nice post Kaneda.

I agree, for a pure driving experience with great feedback, it is very hard to beat a Miata. Add to that the price, and it's a great value. Super fun to drive. What makes it so fun to drive? It's LIGHTWEIGHT and it's a convertible. Obviously not very practical and it would literally be impossible for me to use it as a daily driver (I can have a large number of huge files with me in my car at any given time).

The new Miata looks better than that car has ever looked.

The Elise is at least 400 pounds lighter than the Miata! Pretty amazing.

My Lotus Exige S was a great lightweight car (supercharged), but that car always pushed through the corners a lot more than I liked. My Porsche Spyder was much more neutral and had a better steering feel even though the Lotus had no power steering.

I shopped the S2000 back in the day. The car handled pretty good, but the lack of torque/power until you had the revs way up was something that kept me from buying it.

That's classic.

*Nothing* sounds like a rotary, especially when uncorked!

What car is this?

Ah, but of course. It's a great looking car! Just not enough power, and a bit small for a daily driver for me. Still really like the car overall though, and it's only about 2800 pounds.

That's all great, but not too many people care since the car is under powered (as Kaneda says). That platform is worthy of a much more powerful engine.

Actually I have very clear memories of talking to my car buddies about how the power of those cars sucked ass.

I did have a 1993 Z28 that made a whopping 275 horsepower and I was pleased with that at the time.

We are living in the golden age of horsepower right now, which is why the 200 hp of the FR-S isn't acceptable to most people. Currently I have an HHR SS with a 4 banger turbo that makes 270 hp and there is a factory tune you can do for 290. 29 mpg on the highway. It's been a great daily driver, zero problems. 4 doors make it easy to pick up the kids from school.

HHR-SS1.jpg

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HHR-8.jpg

It really is amazing. 275 hp from a V8 back then (which was good at the time) and today I'm getting 270 hp from my 4 banger (could easily be 290). Of course torque was still better on the V8, but it's still very impressive how technology has improved horsepower and made engines more efficient.

It's much, much more than just 2004! I have been interested in Corvette's all my life. You know why I have never bought one? The interiors have been just embarrassingly bad! The new one seem to have *finally* improved, but still aren't fantastic.

How come nobody has brought up the new Shelby GT350?

Motor has the flat plane crank, which I believe is one of the things has given Ferrari's such a great unique sound.

I've never owned a Ford, but between the RS and the Shelby GT350...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=98&v=l-UmFO_RpYs

Holy crappy video quality Batman! You can't even make out the red cones, nothing but a blur.

I had that same HJC helmet when I raced shifter karts.

I'm still doing my research, it's all speculation at this point, but the motor in the STi has been around for what...8 model years now? So it's probably time for a new one. The WRX motor is direct injection, and would get better mileage than what's in the STi right now.

And what's with all the ringland issues I'm reading about?

Still...there is a lot about the STi that really appeals to me.

It seems like it is, thank goodness. Funny to see guys do these stage 2 or 3 tunes under warranty and then try to get Subaru to replace their motor when it pops.

Seems like there are plenty of people who think the WRX is the better value and has the better (but less powerful) motor.

The Shelby GT350 and it's motor look very promising.

526HP, 429 lb ft toque, 8250 redline!

I figured as much. Reduces the practicality quite a bit. Hellcat's back seats are pretty good, but it's two doors so getting in and out of the backseat is a pain. But I couldn't buy a Charger Hellcat over the Challenger.

Of course there will be big ADM on these! Why? Because it's another car that I am interested in buying!

The only car that I am interested in that I can get without ADM is the STi, and that's because the motor has been around and people are waiting for them to put the FA in it.

The GT350 sounds bad ass! Just incredible the difference that flat plane crank makes.

Yeah, the torque is 429 ft lbs which is obviously good, but doesn't match what you'd get with more cubic inches. Will be interesting to see what the specs will be in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

They are going smaller cubic inches in order to have a reasonable MPG number.

It's solely based on my subjective preference, which is that the Challenger is the much better looking car. I'd rather have four doors, but I would always worry that I made too much of a compromise in looks to get those 4 doors in terms of overall appearance. The Challenger is the best job any company has done in terms of the retro look.

I was talking to a friend about this just two days ago. This is really sad that all these high end sports cars are going forced induction. Smaller motors with turbo's to make the power to be more efficient, but they simply aren't the same in terms of torque and drivability.

If you want something that handles like a go-kart, just buy a go-kart. Nothing else comes closer to the real open wheel racing experience. You will *never* get the adrenaline flowing in a Cayman like you would in a shifter kart!

Kart8.jpg

Why talk about GTI, WRX or Miata when the point you raised to begin with was cars like Porsche, BMW, and Ferrari going to smaller forced induction motors?

GTI, WRX, and Miata have always had small motors and aren't relevant to the new direction that those other car manufacturers are heading.

Yes, I know.

And it sucks.

Trust me, it is an absolute blast! It is *serious* racing. You need to be in good shape physically, or you will not be on the track very long.

It's by far the best bang for the buck racing that anyone can do. Way less expensive than racing any type of car. I really miss it.

I think you missed my point.

I agree with what you are saying. I am the one who just posted that we are currently living in the golden age of horsepower. Things like the Hellcat and Z06 aren't exactly efficient in terms of MPG. It's the fact that cars like the BMW M3 are going to forced induction instead of relying on torque from cubic inches. The cars don't drive the same. Turbos have come a long way, but all things considered, I'd much prefer going naturally aspirated (for the same horsepower).

Oh, I don't think it's weird at all. I've had several turbo charged cars and a supercharged car, so it's not like I hate them by any means. But HP for HP, NA is the way to go. If you are on a road coarse you want the instant throttle response that you get from a NA car. Superchargers are better in terms of throttle response than you get compared to a turbo.

One reason that the top of the line Camaro Z28 gets less horsepower (despite costing a lot more) than the ZL1 (which is supercharged) is because the Z28 is a pure track car and they didn't want the extra weight or slightly reduced throttle response.

No surprises there. But that is a apples to oranges comparison in my opinion.

To me the more valid comparison would be something like a prior generation Audi with the V8, compared to the current supercharged 3L.

Like I said:

You are making the same type of apples to oranges comparison that someone else did. Why compare a 2800 pound RX-7 to a 4500 pound Hellcat to make a point about turbos being the way to go? Especially when the Hellcat itself is supercharged?

Your weight savings argument for smaller turbocharged engines is a common one but over stated. Turbos themselves add weight. On a car like the RX-7 (or any smaller car) you can only fit so big of an engine in them, so forced induction is the way to go to get more power. This is obvious, and it's why I have owned several turbo and supercharged cars.

And man, I wish we had more roads here like you do!

Huh? Forget about "top end hp" of the bigger displacement motor, I'm talking about the *lower end torque* as that's where larger displacement engines have a huge advantage over smaller displacement motors with turbos.

From what I've read it appears that the low end torque on your WRX is better than the STi. Makes for better regular/daily driving.

Exactly, it's because they are designed that way. But it's usually a trade off. See above. The STi doesn't give the torque down low like the WRX does, but the STi has more HP and Torque overall.

Did you see the post of my daily driver? I already own the GM equivalent!

2017 possibly?

I have loved my HHR SS! I've had it for more than five years, I have 90k miles on it and have not had a single problem with it. With a factory tune at the dealership (so still under warranty) it has 290 HP which is the same as the Mitsubishi Evo, and only 15 hp short of the Subbie STi. Brembo brakes, launch control, sport suspension, great seats, and as practical as can be with a nice big hatch in the back that makes it super easy to load and unload carts worth of case files, avg. 25 mpg, 4 doors for easy access when I pick up the kids. And I paid a ridiculously small amount of money for a brand new one during their last year of production. Zero regrets here, it's been one of the better purchases that I've made in terms of value.

So, which do you think is the better looking car, the Ford Focus RS, or the Subbie STi?

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I think you got them backwards. The Ford RS is the hatchback. The STi is the sedan (first pic).

Front ends:

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So you aren't a fan of the rally look?

Rear:

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OMG! That is bad ass. Of course we don't get the good stuff here. Ugh! I'd be all over that.

They have that same motor in some of their AMG cars here, but it's been reduced to 355 HP.

Make sure I didn't miss it here:

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/amg

This is what we get instead

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I've had several of my car buddies tell me how much they dislike the wings. I completely understand.

That said, if I get either the STi, Focus RS, or even the last year of the EVO, it *will* have the wing on it. They are just very much part of the heritage of the rally cars, and I consider them very much part of what they are known for.

The EVO was something I just added to that post to make a point about the fact that I would have the wing on any of those 3 cars if I buy one as I consider it their trademark. The EVO is not really in serious consideration for me (you will see that that last post was about the only time I've mentioned it in this thread).

What you say about the Focus RS being the hot one right now actually makes it less likely that I will get it because I will not pay an ADM on it. The question is whether Ford will make this widely available in a year or so. Even the first ones won't be available until spring 2016.

Still...the best course of action for me will be to wait another year from now anyway, as there is also the chance that Subaru will put a new motor in the STi.

That actually makes perfect sense. I know exactly what you mean. It's kind of funny though, because while what you say makes sense, most people will say that the current STi is the best looking one yet.

True.

The sedan does look better than the hatch. I just prefer the convenience of the hatch as it makes it a lot easier to get big files (often put inside a crate) in and out of the car.

Can't disagree with a word of this. I have the same thoughts/concerns with the RS and it's roots, and I still can't decide whether I like that front end.

And you are definitely right regarding the STi not usually photographing well. The picture you posted is a common angle, and it makes the car look much shorter/squatty than it really is.

What color did you get your WRX in ?

I'm trying to figure out what color this is, or if it's even a stock color:

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Pretty simple really, and I mentioned it several times earlier in the thread. In a word, practicality. Not to mention price (which is obviously related to practicality).

I can get a fully loaded STi limited for less than $40k. We are talking $30k less than the Hellcat, minimum. I have two girls that will be starting college in 2 years, so I prefer to save that extra $30k. I have to be more practical. I still have to pick up my kids several days a week. Getting in and out of the back seats of the Challenger Hellcat would be a pain in the ass.

Implying that the STi doesn't have "real performance" is stupid, especially since you are comparing it to a car that costs $30k more and weighs 1000 fucking pounds more! Tell me how the Hellcat handles again? Do you think the Hellcat would out handle the STi?

I'm not taking any car that I buy to the track. My thing has always been canyon carving. Do you think that the Hellcat is the right car for doing that in over the STi? I don't think so.

Look, I love the Hellcat for what it is. A great looking car that you can clearly see it's heritage in, and a monster 707 HP supercharged Hemi. Pretty bad ass. But it's a lot of money, it's heavier than shit and doesn't handle well because of it, and it's just not very practical.

Remember, you were the one that said this:

So you admit that the Hellcat is no fun at all on the windy roads, and it sounds like you don't think its much fun to drive unless you have the hammer down. That's a lot of money to pay for a car that isn't that engaging, as you put it.

By the way, the Hellcat is not 100% out of the equation. It's still a small possibility, maybe in a year or so, and possibly a used one when/if the prices come down.

I have a friend who has the Golf R and he absolutely loves it! He has recommended it to me.

Unfortunately, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I pretty much can't stand the looks of it, so it's a complete non starter for me (looks are subjective obviously, so don't take it personal...just like I told my friend). The upcoming Golf R400 looks like it will be improved in the looks department, but it's probably going to cost $55k, and there is no way I'm paying anywhere close to $55k for a VW.

Makes me miss my FD Dave!

I'm still considering a 2011-2013 Lexus IS F as well (hey....four doors)! 416 horsepower V8. You can get these with pretty low mileage for right around $40k.

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I pretty much agree, especially on the M3 or M4. There are just WAY too many of them in SoCal. The Hellcat is super cool looking though, and it can be a real head turner, but one of my main issues with it is the fact that it does NOT do enough to distinguish itself from the non Hellcat Challengers.

When I see a new Challenger on the road, I always have to do a double or triple take to determine if it's a Hellcat.

I agree with Kaneda. The interior of the Challenger Hellcat has been improved tremendously over prior year Challengers. It's pretty nice inside.

Edit: Kaneda, I hope you are ok with the fact that this thread has become a general car discussion? If not, let me know, and I can start a new thread. I do feel like I have kind of taken over this thread with all of my going back and forth on what my next car might be, so I have no problem with starting a new thread if you prefer.

Kaneda, see my edit in my post above.

Head turner? Beautiful looking muscle car, clearly rooted in it's history?

FUCK YEAH!

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I lol'ed

This sounds hilarious to me....considering that it was 101 degrees here today.

Thanks RD. Last night I really started thinking that going this route might make the most sense for me, and I really have to seriously consider the IS F from 2011-13. 416 horsepower from a naturally aspirated V8 is very compelling to me. No, it's not Hellcat type power, but it's plenty of power for that car, it's dependable, they hold their value extremely well, they are comfortable to drive compared to cars with tighter suspensions like the STi, and I personally think its a very nice looking car.

Plus, I wouldn't have to wear my cap sideways like I would in the STi.

I'd have to consider whether to buy from a private party (cheaper) or certified pre-owned from a dealer.

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I love the heritage behind the Hellcat. And the 2015 Hellcat has one hell of a good warranty.

But Lexus as a brand obviously maintains it's value way better overall than Dodge, and is also known for their reliability. Dodge, not so much.

Hellcat's will probably retain their value pretty well though.

Like I said!!

Just not in a single performance category. Not one.

Bwhahahahaha!!!!

The only people that will turn their heads to look at an M3 or M4 are other M3/M4 owners.

Yep, well said Dave.

Very cool!

Hey, at least they finally decided to catch up to last century and put an IRS on the Mustang.

A land missile? At 425 horsepower?

What does that make the Hellcat?

What's SRA?

Ah, but of course.

And of course I'm not a fan. That's why I made the comment about them finally catching up to last century by putting the IRS in the Mustang.

I don't understand your argument? It's like you are saying that having more horsepower and a force fed V8 is somehow "cheating", because the other car is a V6. If you want to compare cars, you take them as they are. Guess what? The GT500 came with a force fed V8 and 150 more horsepower!

Yeah, no shit, but that doesn't mean that can't or shouldn't be compared. Wasn't the GT500 in the similar price range to the M3, or more than likely even less? Yeah, I think you can compare them.

And based on your logic, I must point out the fact that your M3 has "faults in other places" as well. Namely: horsepower. Can't make it faster in the straights? You have to make up for it with handling in the corners.

A good car does both!

You know I don't have anything against the M3, it's a damn sweet car, and I'd love to have one. It's just that they really aren't anything special in SoCal because you see Bimmers *everywhere* !

I was on my FB page and got a message that it was 7 years ago today that I shared this picture:

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Yep. Supercharged Toyota 4 banger, pretty much bullet proof.

The Lotus handled great overall (super lightweight....2000 pounds) but it actually required a lot of suspension tuning if you really wanted it to be neutral. I had pretty bad understeer on mine.

The Porsche Spyder I had was much more neutral handling, and had excellent steering feel.

It was about 4 years ago when I bought my spyder I remember seeing a super sweet looking GT3 on the lot. It was slightly used, around 5k miles, and they were asking $115k. It was pretty close to what I'd consider my dream car. I remember thinking that maybe 4-5 years down the road used ones would come down in price and maybe I could justify buying one. Ha! What a joke that turned out to be. Amazing how well they maintain their value.

But yes, that is really as pure of a track car as my Lotus was.

I think part of the reason the Lotus pushed like it did was that the tires in the front were too small compared to the rears. I always ran R compound tires.

Roostking:

I love this shot! It really shows how they did such a great job on the current Challenger in terms of basing it off of the original.

Like I've said before, Dodge did the best retro design based on it's heritage with the Challenger than any attempt by anyone else (such as the Camaro being based on the '69 Camaro, the 2005 Mustang, the early 2000 Thunderbird etc.).

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I test drove the STi a couple of hours ago.

Bottom line: I actually liked it *more* than I thought I would. The car handles great. I mean really surprisingly good, and I have had some great handling cars. They did this one right.

My biggest pleasant surprises: the interior was nicer than expected. It really looks and feels nice. The second biggest surprise was how much room there is in the back seat. I sat back there and I had plenty of extra leg room and head room was fine. You'd almost have to buy a larger SUV to have more room.

The car was not lightning quick by any means, but it had really good throttle response. Brakes are excellent.

I really like this car a lot. It's definitely going to remain on my shortlist. One thing that's nice about the STi is that I don't feel like I have to jump on one now for fear of missing out (unlike cars like the Hellcat, or what the Focus RS will be like) as they are plentiful. The dealer even said I could order one exactly how I want and it would only take 6 weeks to get it (that seems really fast to me).

By contrast, it seems that 2011-2013 Lexus IS F's are quite hard to come by. They just don't pop up for sale that often.

Normally I might argue that this is a good thing because it means that the engine has been proven, why fix it if it isn't broken, etc. But the truth is in this case that the FA motor is better (direct injection) and the current motor in the STI does have some known issues including the ring land problems that have come up (though it appears those are almost always related to ones that have modified/tuned).

I also think the motor in the STI should be more efficient than it is. Gas mileage is pretty bad.

I'll probably wait to see if the 2017 model will have the FA engine in it before buying an STI.