(Topic ID: 349801)

The great LE debate (collectable or not?) Premium Anniversary

By PinStalker

6 months ago


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  • 56 posts
  • 38 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by jokerpoker
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    There are 56 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    -3
    #1 6 months ago

    A whole lotta drama this week (and weekend) about Stern, their upcoming remakes/re-releases, anniversary editions, premium anniversary editions, and what an LE actually is.

    Is it a real collectable?
    Does numbering matter?
    Does an LE hold "Value" better than other versions?
    Is an LE worth the price for what you get?
    Should an LE be the "end all - be all" for all versions current/future of a game?
    Do you regret not buying a particular LE?
    What are your expectations for owning an LE? Anything special?
    Do you find owning an LE more satisfying than another version? If yes, why?

    And then there's the questions for games which received an LE follow-on (EHOH40, EHOHBRK, JP30, Bond60?).
    Did these editions move the needle on decreasing the "value" of existing machines?
    Did original owners of LE's "get burned" by the release of these additional versions?
    Did owners of the original LE get whatever value they think they're entitled to?

    People who buy LE's: a prime motivator seems to be exclusivity (I have what you can't).
    Is the current setup for LE's even conducive to this? Or are people fooling themselves?
    If it isn't, and if it's actually important, how would you fix it?

    Finally, how would you change what an LE is (if it needs changing at all)?

    Bonus questions:
    From Stern's perspective, what is an LE to them?
    How should they treat an LE?
    Do LE's deserve any special consideration from Stern, essentially forever?
    Does Stern "owe" LE owners a greater 2nd hand value at the expense of making more money for themselves?
    Do you think Stern won't make more LE's later on, from this moment forward?

    Just curious. Not expecting anyone to answer all these, just pick and choose anything you feel strongly about.

    32
    #2 6 months ago

    There’s so many questions, I feel you should have numbered them like an LE.

    #3 6 months ago

    People taking a bath on LE’s is nothing new. Short list comes to mind:

    XMLE
    AVATAR
    AVENGERS
    WWE
    MUSTANG
    VENOM
    LZ

    #4 6 months ago

    Why don’t you see if you can get Seth Davis on this thread to discuss. Lol. What a frickin’ moron.
    Seriously, how ignorant can you be?

    #5 6 months ago

    LZ and Mustang still sell for more than MSRP. Waiting for Aerosmith and Munsters to drop close to MSRP.

    #6 6 months ago

    Back in the old days, Jeep CJ7 had a Golden Eagle edition and it was limited production. I don’t think it was numbered or anything like that, but not many people bought them due to the higher cost. Nowadays every model year there are several “special editions” of Wrangler, which I think is sort of the direction Stern might be heading with all of this. Several different versions of what is basically variations in paint colors and stickers.

    #7 6 months ago
    Quoted from Jimmyd044:

    LZ and Mustang still sell for more than MSRP. Waiting for Aerosmith and Munsters to drop close to MSRP.

    That’s good at least. Been a while since I looked for them.

    #8 6 months ago
    Quoted from Jimmyd044:

    LZ and Mustang still sell for more than MSRP. Waiting for Aerosmith and Munsters to drop close to MSRP.

    Forgot Mando. Doh.

    #9 6 months ago

    And don’t forget about the super expensive topper for that title.
    Double-D’oh!

    #10 6 months ago

    I don’t think this type of post on pinside is that Limited.

    #11 6 months ago

    my balls are big enough...why paying a lot of more money (in germany for LE 4500 €) for a real backglass, a shaker, art blades and so on....the most important things i can put to a premium model and save a lot of money with exactly the same feeling.

    I don't know, ah, the number....right. It's very important for some people.

    ....and right: too much questions

    #12 6 months ago

    Beanie Babies, Hess Trucks, Hummels, Llardos, the Franklin Mint, to name a few "collectibles" that surprisingly didn't live up to being worth what many had expected or hoped for.

    Pinball is still a game for me. Exclusivity only matters where it's a great game/theme that I would love to have but can't acquire. Quality and durability (both in construction and enjoyment from playing) gives me that "dividend" for as long as I can play that game. The stratification of Pro, Prem, LE, Bloodsucker or whatever only makes sense if it makes you happy.

    Just my $0.02

    #13 6 months ago

    I think everyone is hoping to have the next Tron LE.

    #14 6 months ago

    So how about the people who are angry about LE's not being exclusive enough?
    I hear/notice a lot of comments about "1000 being too many".

    Well, is 1000 too many? If you lower it, then wouldn't you need in increase the price to reduce demand while keeping margin?
    I don't think I like that idea, that plus if it was say 500 units at this point... then we're back to being on preferred lists and scalpers returning. That sucked for everyone not on a preferred buyer list.

    #15 6 months ago
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    #16 6 months ago

    I've never seen the two letters L and E together at one place so much in my life.
    I don't buy LE's. The premium is the same game for $4,000 less.
    The moment they make the LE game play different than the premium and I will never buy another Stern.
    Just buy a premium and have fun!

    #17 6 months ago
    Quoted from PinStalker:

    So how about the people who are angry about LE's not being exclusive enough?
    I hear/notice a lot of comments about "1000 being too many".
    Well, is 1000 too many? If you lower it, then wouldn't you need in increase the price to reduce demand while keeping margin?
    I don't think I like that idea, that plus if it was say 500 units at this point... then we're back to being on preferred lists and scalpers returning. That sucked for everyone not on a preferred buyer list.

    1000 is fine for Limited Edition Stern. Now 5000 plus Limited edition Gins n Rose's By Jersey Jack Pinball is too much....

    #18 6 months ago
    Quoted from ASAC_Schrader:

    I've never seen the two letters L and E together at one place so much in my life.
    I don't buy LE's. The premium is the same game for $4,000 less.
    The moment they make the LE game play different than the premium and I will never buy another Stern.
    Just buy a premium and have fun!

    So something like the (very minor) additions to CE GNR...... not a good thing for LE's?
    It certainly was something that made some differentiation.

    #19 6 months ago

    The OP’s 2 post from starting this thread has more questions. As if the original post didn’t have enough questions. This is like when they try to get you to take a survey but they key asking questions for 10 minutes. I love the post but let the topic development naturally, instead of the machine gun questions.

    #20 6 months ago

    Artificial rarity isn't really something that holds much value/interest for me when a product is brand new. It's just a way for a company to charge more for something.

    #22 6 months ago

    the true LE

    WNBJM banner (resized).pngWNBJM banner (resized).pngWNBJM voices Rod Olsen Jerry Thompson (resized).jpgWNBJM voices Rod Olsen Jerry Thompson (resized).jpg
    #23 6 months ago

    LEs are not very collectible. Very few care unless it’s a super high want.

    SLE is just super overpriced privilege to say I have money.

    The new play by Stern is going to dip into the well and release new versions of Metallica say a Ride the Lightning edition.

    Will it be ported to Spike?

    #24 6 months ago

    The real issue is the pricing gap between a premium and LE. If stern went back to the pre price hike days it wouldn’t really matter. When the LE only cost 1500 more you got pretty close to that in extras - Mirror backglass, HD Glass, upgraded speakers, art blades, armor, shaker motor, better decals, powder coating. With the split know being over 3 grand Stern needs to protect exclusivity or LEs will die IMO. Best scenario is Stern just reduce the price gap, but that won’t happen. They could also introduce more extras to justify the pricing….the new expression lighting speakers and including shooter rod upgrade is a small step, but still a long way to go in that regard. The real way to bridge the gap (and also bring them in line with CGC and Spooky) would be to include topper…don’t see that happening though.

    #25 6 months ago

    At this point LE just stands for "Latest Edition".

    #26 6 months ago

    Yes
    Yes
    Yes
    Maybe
    No
    No
    Yes
    No
    Yes
    Yes
    No
    Yes
    No
    Yes
    Maybe
    Perhaps
    You tell me?

    #27 6 months ago

    Stern's announcement on not remaking LCD Era LEs is just recognition that they reached the price point max on LEs so need to take a baby step back to try and make it worth the extra dough in this economy.

    They've been increasing prices not because pins more expensive to produce but because they want to get the money traditionally absorbed by the flip market. They just had to keep raising prices gradually until they found the sweet spot. They're telling us in this financial climate, they're convinced they've found that spot, and are trying to stabilize things a bit.

    Now they freeze prices and next step is to see how cheap they can go on the builds without having sales drop off.

    #28 6 months ago

    Kind of straying from joy to cost ownership and residual investment value.
    They are toys, not a investment strategy.
    You want more bling pay more money.
    Covid era price rise driven by cirmstance not genius retirment investment pricing.

    LE just another toy. Buy if you like and play till carpal tunnel sets in. IN ALL INSTANCES PLAY GAME FIRST. if you enjoy the title no matter what the value at resale your having fun (#1 importance factor).

    Enjoy your day Shane

    #29 6 months ago
    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    People taking a bath on LE’s is nothing new. Short list comes to mind:
    XMLE
    AVATAR
    AVENGERS
    WWE
    MUSTANG
    VENOM
    LZ

    show me a guy that will take a bath on a mustang le, impossible to find and selling over three or four thousand what they sold for easily.

    #30 6 months ago

    wish we could limit this douchebag on tv

    #31 6 months ago
    Quoted from Rick432:

    Stern's announcement on not remaking LCD Era LEs is just recognition that they reached the price point max on LEs so need to take a baby step back to try and make it worth the extra dough in this economy.
    They've been increasing prices not because pins more expensive to produce but because they want to get the money traditionally absorbed by the flip market. They just had to keep raising prices gradually until they found the sweet spot. They're telling us in this financial climate, they're convinced they've found that spot, and are trying to stabilize things a bit.
    Now they freeze prices and next step is to see how cheap they can go on the builds without having sales drop off.

    You've captured my thoughts on the subject very succinctly. Where did Stern actually announce they aren't remaking LE's, I've read a post with no source quoted on it so hadn't taken that as anything other than rumour.

    #32 6 months ago
    Quoted from roar:

    You've captured my thoughts on the subject very succinctly. Where did Stern actually announce they aren't remaking LE's, I've read a post with no source quoted on it so hadn't taken that as anything other than rumour.

    https://www.knapparcade.org/post/stern-pinball-clarifies-what-it-meant-by-no-more-limited-editions-after-launch

    FTA:

    "No more limited editions after launch.

    Any Spike 2 (LCD) game refreshes will be Pro / Premium with code to extend

    Current generation (LCD) LEs will only be issued once, buy with confidence."

    #33 6 months ago

    I’m curious to know if anyone would disagree with my opinion, as follows:
    Stern only benefits short term with any re-release of LE models. Reason being, they obviously sell another 500 units of a JPLE 30th edition etc however they lose significantly in the long run because:
    LEs becoming “outdone” when a re-release comes out means that initial LE models will drop in value massively. Nobody wants the old model, they want the newer better looking model. (A re-release will NEVER have worse art than the original)
    Once the original LE models drop in price, so do premiums on the secondary market. And sales will also drop on NIB Premiums from the distributors since a buyer can get a used LE for same/slightly more $.
    Once LE buyers are burned, the demand for LEs drops significantly, reducing perceived value on the game which also then affects Premium resales.
    The greater the delta between what we pay for a NIB and the lower resale amount, the fewer pins are sold overall.

    So a few solutions are:
    No subsequent LE models.
    Reduce the price of LEs. Perhaps to match the price of a Premium + increased bom for the upgrades, but without a further increase.
    Reduce the number LE units.

    #34 6 months ago

    Here's an idea: get rid of LEs completely and make the equivalent upgrades available as mods for pros and premiums.

    #35 6 months ago
    Quoted from mdeslaur:

    Here's an idea: get rid of LEs completely and make the equivalent upgrades available as mods for pros and premiums.

    Except people are actually into this LE shit. They aren't buying it for the upgrades, obviously.

    #36 6 months ago
    Quoted from mdeslaur:

    Here's an idea: get rid of LEs completely and make the equivalent upgrades available as mods for pros and premiums.

    Pro, Premium, Ultimate

    ...and LE for folks who actually want a numbered/limited game.

    #37 6 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Except people are actually into this LE shit. They aren't buying it for the upgrades, obviously.

    Sell them a gold-plated numbered plaque for $1500, problem solved!

    #38 6 months ago

    How about calling new models signature LE editions and have designers signatures screened into playfield. Maybe all team members signature somewhere on game. That would differentiate it from future runs.

    #39 6 months ago
    Quoted from mdeslaur:

    Sell them a gold-plated numbered plaque for $1500, problem solved!

    That sounds more like a topper to me...

    #40 6 months ago

    Anything, literally, anything manufactured to be sold a collectable is not collectable.

    Repeat this until you no longer have to wonder.

    #41 6 months ago

    I'd pay more for an LE if it had a better playfield that didn't dimple.

    #42 6 months ago

    I play three LE’s on location, usually a couple of times a month. I will say, they do feel a little different to me. IDK if the lockdown bar is different or if they add some sound dampening material, or what it is…but they do feel more solid and substantial when playing. Premiums are heavier of course, and a heavier machine will feel more solid just because of the additional weight. All that being considered, the LE’s feel even different from a Premium. All I have at home is Pro models, and I can tell you they definitely feel less substantial. Not that it makes the +$ of an LE worth it to me, by any means…but they do seem to have a different feel.

    #43 6 months ago

    Dont forget Mando, Venom, and TMNT

    Quoted from titanpenguin:

    People taking a bath on LE’s is nothing new. Short list comes to mind:
    XMLE
    AVATAR
    AVENGERS
    WWE
    MUSTANG
    VENOM
    LZ

    #44 6 months ago

    Its the placebo effect. The premium is exactly the same with cosmetic differences.

    Quoted from MasterBlaster:

    I play three LE’s on location, usually a couple of times a month. I will say, they do feel a little different to me. IDK if the lockdown bar is different or if they add some sound dampening material, or what it is…but they do feel more solid and substantial when playing. Premiums are heavier of course, and a heavier machine will feel more solid just because of the additional weight. All that being considered, the LE’s feel even different from a Premium. All I have at home is Pro models, and I can tell you they definitely feel less substantial. Not that it makes the +$ of an LE worth it to me, by any means…but they do seem to have a different feel.

    #45 6 months ago

    Only two things known in human existence to have absolute scarcity. One is your time. The second isn't any pinball machine. They always can make more of those if the market demands it.

    #46 6 months ago

    Traditionally LE's are for the people who attempt to invest & flip for profit; Stern now is making that more challenging to achieve currently.

    Is it a real collectable?
    No, because Stern can rerun with "Anniversary, special editions" Etc. (They have recently gone on record alluding that will not be the case going forward but IMO it's semantics. Honestly, if they think they can squeeze more profit they will.

    Does numbering matter?
    Absolutely not!!

    Does an LE hold "Value" better than other versions?
    It's a complete gamble depends on popularity nobody has a crystal ball & usually you need to purchase before anyone has ever even played it.

    Is an LE worth the price for what you get?
    Absolutely not!! It's generously worth 1,500 (You could easily do the vast majority of the trim work on your own)

    Should an LE be the "end all - be all" for all versions current/future of a game? NO

    Do you regret not buying a particular LE?
    I never have. Never will IMO it's not worth it.

    What are your expectations for owning an LE? Anything special? N/A

    Do you find owning an LE more satisfying than another version? If yes, why? N/A

    Finally, how would you change what an LE is (if it needs changing at all)? I would offer something with a different feature(s) Hardware/Software added to the gameplay instead of just simple cosmetics.

    #47 6 months ago

    I love threads like this........my question mark stock is going through the ROOF...........

    200w (resized).png200w (resized).png

    #48 6 months ago

    as a former LE buyer, it was worth it to me for the extras. although i do have one LE post price hike, and yes, looks like that one is going to hurt. the other thing i like about the LE, is not having to wait forever to get it. i am not a very patient person unfortunately.

    #49 6 months ago

    Stern exceeded the demand market cap for LEs when they raised the volume to 1000. At 750 you still had a group of people that didn't get the game so it kept the secondary market healthy. When you raise the price and the volume, you exceed your demand which blows the secondary market because everyone that was a fomo victim can get one. This works in the short time but over time the fomo buyers won't be able to continue to absorb the loss and will quit buying. I think stern should reduce the next LE to 500 again and it'll be a feeding frenzy.

    #50 6 months ago
    Quoted from MasterBlaster:

    I play three LE’s on location, usually a couple of times a month. I will say, they do feel a little different to me. IDK if the lockdown bar is different or if they add some sound dampening material, or what it is…but they do feel more solid and substantial when playing. Premiums are heavier of course, and a heavier machine will feel more solid just because of the additional weight. All that being considered, the LE’s feel even different from a Premium. All I have at home is Pro models, and I can tell you they definitely feel less substantial. Not that it makes the +$ of an LE worth it to me, by any means…but they do seem to have a different feel.

    Any machine will feel more solid if: the leg bolts on the cabinet are tighter, the front feet levelers are all the way down (so no play in the bolt shaft), and it's on a surface where the feet can't move (rubber feet cups, or maybe just on concrete.) Those may also be differences between location play and your home setup.

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