The Games - Gottlieb 80A - Not booting | Tech: Early solid state

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1

#1 2 years ago

OP

ACE

Gelfling

Inactive member

Palo Alto, CA

2y 14,650 7 2

I AM one of those --- A newly knighted Pinhead --- My wife bought me "#TheGames" for Christmas <2 days ago> - and it broke after 20 games.... I am no EE but I am a Ph.D. Laser Chemist, have rebuilt engines, rewired cars, lasers, and know my way around some schematics.

Here is the lowdown - I see from many posts that backstory helps - We played Christmas for between twenty (20) twenty-two (22) games. There 23 credits were still on the game upon transport. I was in the next room and my wife hollered "somethings wrong". I return to see an error cycle. Because I knew literally nothing about the game. After shut down and restart, I still see the problem. Found this amazing site, registered and am excited to join the Pinside community!

It took me awhile to find on Pinside that it resembles a slam switch triggered on bootup, but booting with the switch open or closed performs the same. There are two states of the display (attached) and an "alarm like" siren going the whole time.... I can get different behavior if the tilt or slam switch is closed during the alarm, and it triggers another "downward spiral" sound. With the slam switch closed it sirens and spirals at 5 - 6 second cycle, if I close the tilt and slam switch together it cycles at a 8-10 second repeat cycle. From here the PinWiki and posts of great Pinside community members helped me establish a procedure.

SO I have done the following based on amazing posts that were similar but not the same as my problem:
1) No apparent MPU damage due to leaking battery
2) I cleaned all the edge connectors with an eraser - look shiny now
3) Checked all fuses - one (pop bumper left side) is dead, it was dead when we were playing.
4) Checked voltage at U1 and see a 4.93VDC - BOOM - Looks to be a major issue on a dozen posts I read.
5) Learned what a Rottendog Power supply gps081 is and that I have one.
6) Have no clue how to get my MPU voltage up to 5.0 (or 5.05 as recommended by others) with the gps081 board...
7) Reaching out to this community - My four best nudges are
a) ChrisHibler
b) ForceFlow
c) G-P-E
d) NPO

They have taught me more about my new machine in 6 hours of reading than I could have learned in 6 weeks solo.

Two pictures posted of the machine in its "error" mode.

Thank you for your help and the creation of this community.

IMG_3694 (resized).pngIMG_3695 (resized).png

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#2 2 years ago

---

ForceFlow

Pinside Moderator

9y 238K 31,366 268 14

What happened when the credits ran out? Did you attempt to add more credits? Did the seller indicate what freeplay method was used on the game?

This happened to me on an original MPU with a CPU chip failure that had me going in circles for a while:

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Game_Displays_a_single_0_or_1_on_Displays

The sound board wasn't doing anything in that situation, though.

0

#3 2 years ago

LXL

Isochronic_Frost

Saratoga Silverball

7y 221K 9,408 108 1 1

OP
Quoted from Gelfling:
I AM one of those --- A newly knighted Pinhead --- My wife bought me "#TheGames" for Christmas <2 days ago> - and it broke after 20 games.... I am no EE but I am a Ph.D. Laser Chemist, have rebuilt engines, rewired cars, lasers, and know my way around some schematics.
Here is the lowdown - I see from many posts that backstory helps - We played Christmas for between twenty (20) twenty-two (22) games. There 23 credits were still on the game upon transport. I was in the next room and my wife hollered "somethings wrong". I return to see an error cycle. Because I knew literally nothing about the game. After shut down and restart, I still see the problem. Found this amazing site, registered and am excited to join the Pinside community!
It took me awhile to find on Pinside that it resembles a slam switch triggered on bootup, but booting with the switch open or closed performs the same. There are two states of the display (attached) and an "alarm like" siren going the whole time.... I can get different behavior if the tilt or slam switch is closed during the alarm, and it triggers another "downward spiral" sound. With the slam switch closed it sirens and spirals at 5 - 6 second cycle, if I close the tilt and slam switch together it cycles at a 8-10 second repeat cycle. From here the PinWiki and posts of great Pinside community members helped me establish a procedure.
SO I have done the following based on amazing posts that were similar but not the same as my problem:
1) No apparent MPU damage due to leaking battery
2) I cleaned all the edge connectors with an eraser - look shiny now
3) Checked all fuses - one (pop bumper left side) is dead, it was dead when we were playing.
4) Checked voltage at U1 and see a 4.93VDC - BOOM - Looks to be a major issue on a dozen posts I read.
5) Learned what a Rottendog Power supply gps081 is and that I have one.
6) Have no clue how to get my MPU voltage up to 5.0 (or 5.05 as recommended by others) with the gps081 board...
7) Reaching out to this community - My four best nudges are
a) ChrisHibler
b) ForceFlow
c) G-P-E
d) NPO
They have taught me more about my new machine in 6 hours of reading than I could have learned in 6 weeks solo.
Two pictures posted of the machine in its "error" mode.
Thank you for your help and the creation of this community.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Some info about who/how you got the machine may help. Was this from a retailer who refurbished it? A Craigslist buy? Take some pictures of the board so we can see what’s up. The displays don’t give enough info.

Curious how long it was working, and the state of the PSU. If it worked all this time it seems hard to believe it just went bad now.

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#4 2 years ago

GPE

G-P-E

GPE

Omaha, NE

13y 76,800 2,778 4

The RD board is not adjustable but the 4.93V is not that far off and is well within the range for *most* ICs.
Are you measuring this at the power supply? or at the CPU board? I assume "U1" means on the CPU board.
Can you compare the two to see if the voltage drop is caused by connections?
There's a few bad versions of the RD board out there (some worse than their usual). There is a large, solitary diode about dead center of the board. Can you read the part number on it?

And some fun stuff from pinwiki -
Have you read about the ground modifications as shown here:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Ground_updates

And the other common problem with gottliebs whenever you mess with connectors:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Connectors.2C_Connectors.2C_Connectors

0

#5 2 years ago

OP

ACE

Gelfling

Inactive member

Palo Alto, CA

2y 14,650 7 2

Thank you all for jumping in!

Quoted from ForceFlow:
What happened when the credits ran out? Did you attempt to add more credits? Did the seller indicate what freeplay method was used on the game?
This happened to me on an original MPU with a CPU chip failure that had me going in circles for a while:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Game_Displays_a_single_0_or_1_on_Displays
The sound board wasn't doing anything in that situation, though.

ForceFlow - So, because I was away from the game when the credits may have run out, I do not know. When a quarter was put in when bought, it rang up 25 credits. The seller indicated no "free play" button, just 25 credits for $0.25.

Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:
Some info about who/how you got the machine may help. Was this from a retailer who refurbished it? A Craigslist buy? Take some pictures of the board so we can see what’s up. The displays don’t give enough info.
Curious how long it was working, and the state of the PSU. If it worked all this time it seems hard to believe it just went bad now.

Isochronic_Frost - It was bought in bay area early December 2021 - demonstrated gameplay with left pop-bumper not working.
Photos from the boards below. It was working when bought in the first week of December; 1 quarter gave 25 credits, and 1 credit was used. It was transported and tested same day (2 credits used), waited three weeks (for Christmas), Revealed and plugged in and played many times. When I left the game it had two credits on it. What I cannot be sure of is how many games played until no credits, and what behavior happened at no credits. My kids were playing it when I walked away, but my kids said they were not at the machine when the sounds started "sirens".

Quoted from G-P-E:
The RD board is not adjustable but the 4.93V is not that far off and is well within the range for *most* ICs.
Are you measuring this at the power supply? or at the CPU board? I assume "U1" means on the CPU board.
Can you compare the two to see if the voltage drop is caused by connections?
There's a few bad versions of the RD board out there (some worse than their usual). There is a large, solitary diode about dead center of the board. Can you read the part number on it?
And some fun stuff from pinwiki -
Have you read about the ground modifications as shown here:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Ground_updates
And the other common problem with gottliebs whenever you mess with connectors:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Connectors.2C_Connectors.2C_Connectors

G-P-E - You are correct, the 4.93VDC I measured is pin 8 on the U1 on the CPU board vs pin 1 or 21 (ground). When the MPU board is not plugged in, the RD power supply measures 5.05VDC. There is no diode in the middle of the RD board - but 1N5400 is labeled D3 on the RD board.

Thank you again

IMG_3698 (resized).png

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2

#6 2 years ago

GPE

G-P-E

GPE

Omaha, NE

13y 76,800 2,778 4

Yes -- diode D3. If it really is a 1N5400 series diode then he can become a problem but don't muck with it unless you have problems with the 5V supply (doesn't look like you do). That diode should have been a schottky type diode such as 80SQ045N.

Looks like a very clean and mostly unmolested board set (except for Q59). Consider yourself lucky in that respect.

You do have a slight voltage drop across the stubby cable from power supply to CPU board. Might be able to fix with repinning but I really do not think this is a problem. Appears to be all original connectors and possibly contacts as well. It could benefit from doing the ground mods as linked to above.

I wonder if the electrolytic caps on the 'watchdog' board are dried out. These provide a timing circuit where if it doesn't get 'pinged' often enough, it thinks the machine is hung and resets the CPU. For testing - try pulling the 7-pin plug on that small board on the bottom right side of picture (with power off!!). See if symptoms change. As long as the game is not left unattended for a long period of time, it is safe to leave this disconnected for testing.

I might see another potential problem. Batteries. It appears to be regular alkaline Duracell batteries within a remote holder. What I cannot clearly see is if there is a 'blocking diode'. Might be one within the battery holder. Can you take a few pics from both sides of that battery holder?
If it does not have a blocking diode - the board could be trying to 'trickle charge' the alkaline batteries which is not good.

And - welcome to the world of Gottlieb pinball! Some people hate these, I actually like them (except them damn edge connectors!).

0

#7 2 years ago

OP

ACE

Gelfling

Inactive member

Palo Alto, CA

2y 14,650 7 2

Quoted from G-P-E:
Yes -- diode D3. If it really is a 1N5400 series diode then he can become a problem but don't muck with it unless you have problems with the 5V supply (doesn't look like you do). That diode should have been a schottky type diode such as 80SQ045N.
Looks like a very clean and mostly unmolested board set (except for Q59). Consider yourself lucky in that respect.
You do have a slight voltage drop across the stubby cable from power supply to CPU board. Might be able to fix with repinning but I really do not think this is a problem. Appears to be all original connectors and possibly contacts as well. It could benefit from doing the ground mods as linked to above.
I wonder if the electrolytic caps on the 'watchdog' board are dried out. These provide a timing circuit where if it doesn't get 'pinged' often enough, it thinks the machine is hung and resets the CPU. For testing - try pulling the 7-pin plug on that small board on the bottom right side of picture (with power off!!). See if symptoms change. As long as the game is not left unattended for a long period of time, it is safe to leave this disconnected for testing.
I might see another potential problem. Batteries. It appears to be regular alkaline Duracell batteries within a remote holder. What I cannot clearly see is if there is a 'blocking diode'. Might be one within the battery holder. Can you take a few pics from both sides of that battery holder?
If it does not have a blocking diode - the board could be trying to 'trickle charge' the alkaline batteries which is not good.
And - welcome to the world of Gottlieb pinball! Some people hate these, I actually like them (except them damn edge connectors!).

Thank you G-P-E . OK, so I pulled the 7-pin plug on the "watchdog" board..... When I power up the machine it chimes once and puts just a 0 on the upper level and another on the lower level, no more flashing and no more sirens. At this point, I like different (the siren is annoying). Is there a bootup procedure documented so that I can stepwise test if all is going well?

There is no "blocking diode" on the battery pack. What is the function of that battery pack? Couldn't it be a 3.2V lithium and last 20 years?

I am excited to be here. I feel like as much as this pinball machine was not a great playing gift (YET) it has tapped deep into my desire to understand, investigate, and fix. Takes me back to my first car - a 4x4 pickup. That makes it a great gift.

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2

#8 2 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Chris' Pinball Repair

Chesterfield, MO

12y 120K 9,996 46

Hi there.

The battery pack provides power to the 5101 RAM to retain memory while the machine is turned off. This memory contains audits and adjustments like high score to date and score levels for free games.

While it is good that a remote pack was installed, it is installed above the boards, creating the possibility that leaky batteries can “drip” onto the boards.

A few parts near MPU power connector J1 look like they have green corrosion residue in them. Tough to say from the pic.

I would say that the MPU isn’t booting, which often shows a “hot digit” on the display and nothing more.

The MPU has had work done to it in the past. U1,4,5,6, the 5101, and a 7400 and a 7404 below U4 have all been socketed which is not OEM configuration. Someone was chasing a non-booting MPU issue and the switch matrix was damaged in the past (7400/7404)

If the board was in my shop, I’d use my testers to test the 5101, and all three 6532s, and the 6502. Once working, I’d defeat the slam switch (see PInWiki) and install a SuperCap instead of the remote battery (PInWiki again).

GPE advice above is excellent also.

You have a Pascal Janin sound board replacement. Nice board.

Happy to help.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

0

#9 2 years ago

OP

ACE

Gelfling

Inactive member

Palo Alto, CA

2y 14,650 7 2

Quoted from ChrisHibler:
Hi there.
The battery pack provides power to the 5101 RAM to retain memory while the machine is turned off. This memory contains audits and adjustments like high score to date and score levels for free games.
While it is good that a remote pack was installed, it is installed above the boards, creating the possibility that leaky batteries can “drip” onto the boards.
A few parts near MPU power connector J1 look like they have green corrosion residue in them. Tough to say from the pic.
I would say that the MPU isn’t booting, which often shows a “hot digit” on the display and nothing more.
The MPU has had work done to it in the past. U1,4,5,6, the 5101, and a 7400 and a 7404 below U4 have all been socketed which is not OEM configuration. Someone was chasing a non-booting MPU issue and the switch matrix was damaged in the past (7400/7404)
If the board was in my shop, I’d use my testers to test the 5101, and all three 6532s, and the 6502. Once working, I’d defeat the slam switch (see PInWiki) and install a SuperCap instead of the remote battery (PInWiki again).
GPE advice above is excellent also.
You have a Pascal Janin sound board replacement. Nice board.
Happy to help.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

Thank you Chris for the input - I'm Chris also!
Have you worked on this board in the past, or are you aware of the issues it faced. The seller said the sound was dead when he bought it (12-18 months ago) and I am sure he put in the soundboard. I like the slam mod, supercap, and even one of your videos shows the pinitech 5101 NVRAM (would that be an easy install due to the 5101 being socketed?).

My wife is pretty disappointed in the unit - she bought it - it worked for 20-ish games and now I am spending more time troubleshooting and learning than playing. I really like the problem solving, but I think I will be sending it your way if I cannot get it going soon without chip testing... I have zero equipment for chip testing. I do have scopes and power supplies and such, but no domain knowledge on this unit or the IC's onboard. Can you give a brief overview of the testing procedure for the "5101, and all three 6532s, and the 6502". As a 3 days old Pinhead, I think I want to ease in a little more slowly...

Thank you for the input and insights!
-Chris

0

#10 2 years ago

???

Bmad21

Pinside+ Frequent

2y 34,550 562

OP
Quoted from Gelfling:
Thank you G-P-E . OK, so I pulled the 7-pin plug on the "watchdog" board..... When I power up the machine it chimes once and puts just a 0 on the upper level and another on the lower level, no more flashing and no more sirens. At this point, I like different (the siren is annoying). Is there a bootup procedure documented so that I can stepwise test if all is going well?
There is no "blocking diode" on the battery pack. What is the function of that battery pack? Couldn't it be a 3.2V lithium and last 20 years?
I am excited to be here. I feel like as much as this pinball machine was not a great playing gift (YET) it has tapped deep into my desire to understand, investigate, and fix. Takes me back to my first car - a 4x4 pickup. That makes it a great gift.

Search the forum for my writeup on watchdog timers.

0

1

#11 2 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Chris' Pinball Repair

Chesterfield, MO

12y 120K 9,996 46

OP
Quoted from Gelfling:
Have you worked on this board in the past, or are you aware of the issues it faced.

I've not worked on your board in the past, but I have worked on hundreds of System 80/80A/80B MPU boards in the past. I've seen pretty much everything and can recognize the rabbit holes people have been down in the past.

Testing the devices mentioned requires special test equipment that I have in my shop.
The fastest way to get your game back up and running is to send the board to me.
I recommend sending the MPU and driver board to me.
I'll repair the MPU and ensure all drive circuits on the driver board work properly.

I can add ground updates to both boards too.

The shipping form and instructions can be found here:
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact

Happy to help.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

0

2

#12 2 years ago

GPE

G-P-E

GPE

Omaha, NE

13y 76,800 2,778 4

OP
Quoted from Gelfling:
Thank you G-P-E . OK, so I pulled the 7-pin plug on the "watchdog" board..... When I power up the machine it chimes once and puts just a 0 on the upper level and another on the lower level, no more flashing and no more sirens. At this point, I like different (the siren is annoying). Is there a bootup procedure documented so that I can stepwise test if all is going well?
There is no "blocking diode" on the battery pack. What is the function of that battery pack? Couldn't it be a 3.2V lithium and last 20 years?
I am excited to be here. I feel like as much as this pinball machine was not a great playing gift (YET) it has tapped deep into my desire to understand, investigate, and fix. Takes me back to my first car - a 4x4 pickup. That makes it a great gift.

Appears your watchdog was triggering -- probably because the CPU board isn't running. Tough part is why isn't the CPU board running. Can be lots of things... unfortunately. It does seem that the CPU may need a bit of TLC to make sure it's fully functional. Chris (above) would be a good person for this.

Battery pack - Holds your high score information.
There does not appear to be a blocking diode on the CPU board but there may be one may be tucked inside the battery pack. That's why I brought up taking a few photos of the battery pack. Without the blocking diode - you are asking for trouble. Good chance that trickle charging an alkaline battery could cause batteries to leak prematurely (best case). You don't want to know worst case. Chris pointed out something that I was thinking. That battery pack is still way too close to the easily damaged boards. If I had a remote pack - I would put it way below the boards away from everything. Another good option that I use is "Frank's Battery Board for Gottlieb Systems 80, 80A and 80B". These can be found at NoQuartersArcade.com
Lithium coin battery with blocking diode on board. Coin batteries can still leak but they last far, far longer.

0

1

#13 2 years ago

OP

ACE

Gelfling

Inactive member

Palo Alto, CA

2y 14,650 7 2

Quick update - That “ugly” area at the top around the 3k resistor and the 100mfd capacitor was testing flaky, so I took both of them out - the 3k resistor was registering way too high and flaky - when desoldering it the leg broke so maybe that is the culprit. Also switching the cap to a radial cap. If this simple fix is unsuccessful, I will have it on its way to Chris before the New Year.
- Chris

0

1

#14 2 years ago

GPE

G-P-E

GPE

Omaha, NE

13y 76,800 2,778 4

Depending on exactly which resistor that one was - it could definitely cause boot problems.
The cap won't affect this.

Is there still active corrosion on the board? If so, you will need to neutralize this to stop the corrosion.

0

1

#15 2 years ago

OP

ACE

Gelfling

Inactive member

Palo Alto, CA

2y 14,650 7 2

Quoted from ChrisHibler:
I've not worked on your board in the past, but I have worked on hundreds of System 80/80A/80B MPU boards in the past. I've seen pretty much everything and can recognize the rabbit holes people have been down in the past.
Testing the devices mentioned requires special test equipment that I have in my shop.
The fastest way to get your game back up and running is to send the board to me.
I recommend sending the MPU and driver board to me.
I'll repair the MPU and ensure all drive circuits on the driver board work properly.
I can add ground updates to both boards too.
The shipping form and instructions can be found here:
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
Happy to help.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Quoted from G-P-E:
Depending on exactly which resistor that one was - it could definitely cause boot problems.
The cap won't affect this.
Is there still active corrosion on the board? If so, you will need to neutralize this to stop the corrosion.

Thank you ChrisHibler and G-P-E - It looks like there may be a very mild amount of active corrosion on the board. The batteries were changed when bought and seem oily already, so I am sure there is something concerning going on. I will run them a distance and add a blocking diode. If the simple fix of the resistor is successful, I will play it for a week or two and then send it off to Chris for a thorough overhaul. I'll provide an update in a day or two.

I have owned a machine for 3 days and now I want a second... Any suggestions?

0

#16 2 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Chris' Pinball Repair

Chesterfield, MO

12y 120K 9,996 46

The Games is one of the best 80A games.
I have a lot of 80 games and a lot of 80B games.
They've all gotten quite pricey, like most pinball machines this year.

Find an arcade, museum, or pinball bar and see what you like.
Very hard to make a recommendation.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

0

#17 2 years ago

CHD

Cheddar

GoldenStatePin

Lodi, CA

11y 117K 5,181 17 10

OP
Quoted from Gelfling:
I have owned a machine for 3 days and now I want a second... Any suggestions?

I've got a Sinbad System 1 coming up for sale <GRIN>

0

#18 2 years ago

SJS

northwind

Pinside member

Gainesville, GA

2y 20,400 12 2

Can't speak to your exact problem but The Games was my first pin as well, the previous owner took decent care of it, but once I had it, I spent a bunch of time chasing IC and transistor issues before I got it to running perfectly. The diagrams (if you have the manual) are invaluable, and many parts are fairly easy to locate on ebay or through other sources. PinWiki is also very useful. Just invested in a set of replacement LED displays for the back box as a Christmas present for myself, it's a good (and challenging) table to play. I took the supercap route for maintaining the scores and configuration, one less thing to worry about. Good luck with the table!

0

2

#19 2 years ago

OP

ACE

Gelfling

Inactive member

Palo Alto, CA

2y 14,650 7 2

Thanks to you all for the support.

My simple fix attempt did not yield a successful outcome, so I am sending the board off to @chrishibler. I have officially spent 50x longer working on the machine than playing it, but I now know the unit pretty well. My wife will be happy to see it played instead of being worked on. I will likely invest in some diagnostic equipment. Any recommendations are welcome. Is there a way to boot and test all the hardware while the MPU is out? I want to fix some bumpers, the rubber, and a handful of bulbs while Chris is working on the boot problem.

Also, I will be looking around for other fun (an inexpensive) machines as they come available.

-Chris

0

#20 2 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Chris' Pinball Repair

Chesterfield, MO

12y 120K 9,996 46

OP
Quoted from Gelfling:
Is there a way to boot and test all the hardware while the MPU is out?

Nope. You can do all the cosmetic work you desire but the game really needs to have an MPU to do anything more. Perhaps the GI will light and some burned out bulbs can be identified.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

The Games - Gottlieb 80A - Not booting

By Gelfling

2 years ago

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Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!