(Topic ID: 279790)

The Flintstones: Game resets after ColorDMD install

By Brewchap

3 years ago


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  • 41 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Brewchap
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

Just to throw this out there, I never had a problem with resets using the old display. Just when I have the new display installed.
It seems to happen during muti-ball. I contacted Randy at ColorDMD and he stated that this was a 5 volt problem and to check the bridge or capacitor on the 5V supply line. Another suggestion, was there was to much load of the 12 volt side. Not sure now to test for that...

I think that I want to tackle the 5 volt suggestion first, but I'm not sure where to look on the power/driver board. I'm sure that this have been covered before, but I'm not finding what I'm looking for that will tell me where the 5 volt line is.

#2 3 years ago

Here’s a nice vid that shows all the voltages being tested:

#3 3 years ago

Quite common. Assuming you don't have a bunch of other mods hooked up to the 12v line, you should either have your power driver board rebuilt or hook up an external power supply for the Color DMD (and other 12v mods, like LED strips for example, if you have them). The latter is probably easier. The former may need to be done eventually anyway if your board is on the edge of being able to put out a stable 5v.

#4 3 years ago

Can you measure the voltage at C31 on the MPU? Red on + and black on -

#5 3 years ago

Unless you have a Kahr board installed (that creates a dedicated 5V input to the CPU from the unregulated 12V supply), overloading 12V will not drop the 5V line and cause a reset. You might blow a fuse but it won't have any impact on 5V. Installation of the ColorDMD won't cause this problem.

Resets are usually caused by 5V dipping due to coupling in the transformer and triggered when the high power coils are switching on and off and pulling a lot of current all at once. They're most common when hitting both flippers at the same time in rapid succession. If the output cap on the 5V supply isn't holding the voltage well, the voltage on the 5V line will fluctuate. When the 5V line dips below the watchdog voltage level, the CPU resets.

You're seeing it happen in multiball because that's when the coils are firing the most. If you can produce the problem when hitting both flippers, you'll see it happens with the display connected or disconnected.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Dmod:

Unless you have a Kahr board installed (that creates a dedicated 5V input to the CPU from the unregulated 12V supply)

I know Dmod knows the following information. I absolutely concur 100% with everything else written except the word "unregulated". The ColorDMD is *NOT* the cause of your problem.

This post is for others who may not know the difference between the "12V supplies" on the WPC power boards. There are two of them (+12VU and +12VR) and they are often confused. They are distinct and separate circuits (transformer secondary windings).

DMC (dot matrix controller) power header is shown here. The +12VU is passed to the DMD (dot matrix display).

01_dmc_power.jpg01_dmc_power.jpg

The +12VU comes out of the power board at any of J116, J117 or J118 (they are electrically and keyed identical).

02_dmc_power.jpg02_dmc_power.jpg

And the difference between the "12V supplies".

+12VU is UNREGULATED and generated by BR5 from J112. Shown in blue. Power is distributed to J117 to the DMC and subsequently to the DMD.

+12VR is REGULATED and generated by Q2 from +18VU from BR1 from J101. Shown in red. Power is distributed to J114 to the CPU. The Kahr board sits between J114 and J210 and (presumably) uses an on-board regulator that regulates the +12VR to +5VR substituting the original +5VR from the power board with its own supply.

03_dmc_power.jpg03_dmc_power.jpg

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

Here’s a nice vid that shows all the voltages being tested:

Great vid!! Thank you Chris Hibler!

I got:
TP8 16.8 DC volts
TP6 71.7
TP7 21
TP3 11.9
TP2 5.0
TP1 13.9
TP4 .039

Quoted from ReplayRyan:

Quite common. Assuming you don't have a bunch of other mods hooked up to the 12v line, you should either have your power driver board rebuilt or hook up an external power supply for the Color DMD (and other 12v mods, like LED strips for example, if you have them). The latter is probably easier. The former may need to be done eventually anyway if your board is on the edge of being able to put out a stable 5v.

I got the tool to do the work, just don't have the info on what it takes to rebuild it.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Can you measure the voltage at C31 on the MPU? Red on + and black on -

4.9 dc volts

Quoted from Dmod:

If you can produce the problem when hitting both flippers, you'll see it happens with the display connected or disconnected.

I only have the problem with the ColorDMD is connected. Not a problem at all with the original display. Flipping the flippers at the same time does not reboot the pin with the original display.

Quoted from DumbAss:

I know Dmod knows the following information. I absolutely concur 100% with everything else written except the word "unregulated". The ColorDMD is *NOT* the cause of your problem.
This post is for others who may not know the difference between the "12V supplies" on the WPC power boards. There are two of them (+12VU and +12VR) and they are often confused. They are distinct and separate circuits (transformer secondary windings).
DMC (dot matrix controller) power header is shown here. The +12VU is passed to the DMD (dot matrix display).
[quoted image]
The +12VU comes out of the power board at any of J116, J117 or J118 (they are electrically and keyed identical).
[quoted image]
And the difference between the "12V supplies".
+12VU is UNREGULATED and generated by BR5 from J112. Shown in blue. Power is distributed to J117 to the DMC and subsequently to the DMD.
+12VR is REGULATED and generated by Q2 from +18VU from BR1 from J101. Shown in red. Power is distributed to J114 to the CPU. The Kahr board sits between J114 and J210 and (presumably) uses an on-board regulator that regulates the +12VR to +5VR substituting the original +5VR from the power board with its own supply.
[quoted image]

AHhhhh, I still trying to wrap my head around this. Sorry.

#8 3 years ago

That is borderline. Can you reseat J101, J102, J114 and J210 and retest the voltage at C31? Then see if you still get resets.

#9 3 years ago

Yes sir, Let me get the manual out so I know what connectors to pull. BRB

#10 3 years ago

Not to be difficult here, but just trying to help.

I upgraded my MM with a ColorDMD. I had just fixed the cap problem with the high voltage, so I thought that everything was ok. It worked with the older DMD, so I thought no problem.

When I installed the ColorDMD, the game would reset like crazy. Turned out to be the ribbon cables were moved over one set of pins from the Power board.

Please take the time to check all the ribbons to help yourself out.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

That is borderline. Can you reseat J101, J102, J114 and J210 and retest the voltage at C31? Then see if you still get resets.

4.98

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from jbovenzi:

Not to be difficult here, but just trying to help.
I upgraded my MM with a ColorDMD. I had just fixed the cap problem with the high voltage, so I thought that everything was ok. It worked with the older DMD, so I thought no problem.
When I installed the ColorDMD, the game would reset like crazy. Turned out to be the ribbon cables were moved over one set of pins from the Power board.
Please take the time to check all the ribbons to help yourself out.

Great idea, I'll do that now.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

+12VR is REGULATED and generated by Q2 from +18VU from BR1 from J101. Shown in red. Power is distributed to J114 to the CPU. The Kahr board sits between J114 and J210 and (presumably) uses an on-board regulator that regulates the +12VR to +5VR substituting the original +5VR from the power board with its own supply.

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware that the Kahr board runs off the regulated 12V supply.

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

That is borderline. Can you reseat J101, J102, J114 and J210 and retest the voltage at C31? Then see if you still get resets.

Great catch from PinballManiac. If you have 5V at the power driver board and only 4.9V at the CPU, there's probably a voltage drop across one of the headers. If the voltage increased from 4.9 to 4.98, that may have helped.

Quoted from Brewchap:

I only have the problem with the ColorDMD is connected. Not a problem at all with the original display. Flipping the flippers at the same time does not reboot the pin with the original display.

If you're still having issues, monitor the voltage on C31 while flipping both flippers in rapid succession and see if it fluctuates. Start multiball on the game and do the same thing.

#15 3 years ago

Just found this. Something else to fix before I go any farther. J115 Not sure if this is my problem, but I would like to fix it correctly.

20201018_201340.jpg20201018_201340.jpg

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

Just found this. Something else to fix before I go any farther. J115 Not sure if this is my problem, but I would like to fix it correctly.
[quoted image]

The GI hack is strange for sure, but I also don't see the ColorDMD wire harness in that photo. Where do you have it connected?

#17 3 years ago

Right now I got the original display in because we had a family get together and wanted to have the pin playable. Something far and few with the surrounding events going on. Now that I think about it, I guess that I should have had the ColorDMD in to do the test. Dang, I should have thought of that. Sorry that I may have wasted everyone time. But I can tell you that testing C31 with the original display, the voltage was 4.86 to 4.98 during wildly flipping flippers and it stayed about the same during muti-ball.

Ill put the ColorDMD in tomorrow to test. Sorry for screwing it up.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

Just found this. Something else to fix before I go any farther. J115 Not sure if this is my problem, but I would like to fix it correctly.

When I see stuff like that I would suggest you pull the board and inspect it. Who knows what else is lying behind the board hidden from view.

At least with that solution it is possible to disconnect the connector despite wires soldered directly to the board. It sucks when you have to cut the wires (or de-solder them) to remove the board.

#19 3 years ago

Well, if you did get higher voltage after reseating the connectors, even if you were using the original display, it "worked". It's safe to assume that the voltages were very similar with either display. How are J101 and J102 ? Are they damaged or do they show signs of having heated before? If the connectors are yellowed, they would need changing. Changing the pins they connect to as well is a good idea, but at the very least touch up the solder and scrub the pins with a metal brush or something abrasive.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

Just found this. Something else to fix before I go any farther. J115 Not sure if this is my problem, but I would like to fix it correctly.
[quoted image]

It is not the source of the resets, but it just adds more problems into your GI than originally designed.

Any resets after reseating connectors?

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from Dmod:

Great catch from PinballManiac. If you have 5V at the power driver board and only 4.9V at the CPU, there's probably a voltage drop across one of the headers. If the voltage increased from 4.9 to 4.98, that may have helped.

Because of the voltage drop between these 2 boards, I would repin both J114 and J210.

#22 3 years ago

I'm going to look the board over and re-pin some connectors as suggested in the last 4 post. Then I'll install the ColorDMD.

I also had a set back when I came home from work. I found the original screen messed up with a bunch of lines going through it. I got a video of it below.

#23 3 years ago

Ok I have a huge problem now. The garbled display has effected the ColorDMD also.

#24 3 years ago

I re-seated the ribbon cables and the display started working correctly.

#25 3 years ago

So, I played about 4 games now and I have had no resets. I guess that pulling the connectors off and on fixed the reset problems. If I understand this right, then I need to put new pins and connectors at these locations. J101, J102, J114 and J210

Voltage at C31 is now 4.99

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Because of the voltage drop between these 2 boards, I would repin both J114 and J210.

It certainly would not hurt repinning J101, as that is a major source of most resets.

Likely, reseating them will be temporary. I had no resets on games for 2 or 3 months before it returned. I have my games on at least 8 hours per week, mostly during the weekend.

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

It certainly would not hurt repinning J101, as that is a major source of most resets.
Likely, reseating them will be temporary. I had no resets on games for 2 or 3 months before it returned. I have my games on at least 8 hours per week, mostly during the weekend.

Thank you for your help and the help that I received from the other folks. Thank you! I will get busy and replace the pins and connectors once the parts come in.

#28 3 years ago

I have not ever really pinpointed J102 to cause resets, but the flipper power comes into the driver board at this connector. If they are dark and tarnished, I can see new pins making the flippers a bit stronger.

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I have not ever really pinpointed J102 to cause resets, but the flipper power comes into the driver board at this connector. If they are dark and tarnished, I can see new pins making the flippers a bit stronger.

That is interesting as I have been seeing the left flipper losing power lately. I definitely need to take a closer look at that when I change it out.

#30 3 years ago

My statement means that it can affect the flipper power to all, not just to a single flipper.

Start with making sure the EOS is changing state close to the end of the flipper stroke. A sign of a misadjusted EOS switch would be that the flipper coil would be hotter than normal, which is when the flipper power would become weaker as it gets played more.

#31 3 years ago

Didn't know that. Is the flipper EOS the same as older pins? Oh no it's normally open. Is the gap still about 1/8?

#32 3 years ago

It is hard to remember which era are normally open and which are closed. Just match up with the other flipper side. 1/16" to 1/8" gap pretty much works on all EOS switches.

I have also seen flipper button optos (behind the cabinet flipper buttons) may be a problem as well. May clean the flipper button U shaped optos with glass cleaner or alcohol and Qtips. Also possible that the opto interrupter may not be breaking the beam correctly. You can swap the flipper opto board assembly from the left to right side and retest to see if it moves with it. Sometimes the transmitter opto in.the Ushaped opto is weak.

1 month later
#33 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:It certainly would not hurt repinning J101, as that is a major source of most resets.
Likely, reseating them will be temporary. I had no resets on games for 2 or 3 months before it returned. I have my games on at least 8 hours per week, mostly during the weekend.

I finely got around to replacing the pins and connectors (J114 J101 J102 J210) after the resets started again. Going to see what happens now, but I want to let you know that the F116 fuse also just started blowing. It just started when the resets did. Would this be a new problem or related to the resets?

The 5VDC TP did improved to 5.01VDC

#34 3 years ago

Well the replacement of the pins and connectors did not stop the rebooting. F116 is now blowing. It did sound like a solenoid keep firing. I think that it was the shooter solenoid as there was a ball rolling down the playfield as I walked up. Not sure as the wife just got done playing, to tell me about a weak left flipper problem with the pin. That's when I noticed that the display was off, then rebooted.

Something is odd about this problem, that's for sure.

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

Well the replacement of the pins and connectors did not stop the rebooting. F116 is now blowing. It did sound like a solenoid keep firing. I think that it was the shooter solenoid as there was a ball rolling down the playfield as I walked up. Not sure as the wife just got done playing, to tell me about a weak left flipper problem with the pin. That's when I noticed that the display was off, then rebooted.
Something is odd about this problem, that's for sure.

In the process of replacing the connectors, did you remove J116 to J119 or any ribbon cables? Maybe plugged in one pin off or whole row off (ribbon cables)?

#36 3 years ago

Yes I did remove them. I will check now to verify that there are correct.

#37 3 years ago

I just checked. They are all installed correctly. I have played a bunch of games this past hour and had not had anymore problems.

#38 3 years ago

Sometimes motors hit a bad spot and draw a bit more current than usual and blow out F116, which also will affect power to the ColorDMD and opto power. If you lose opto power, then you will have those coils with optos attached keep firing because the game thinks balls are stuck.

#39 3 years ago

No Sir, I have a 3 amp slow blow fuse.

#40 3 years ago

That is the correct fuse. I have seen a thin wire 3A slo blo fuse not hold up in the past. Bussman fuses are the best.

#41 3 years ago

I'm not sure who the manufacturer of the fuse is as I bought them from Marco's. I went through 3 fuses before I used my 3 amp circuit breaker and it has not blown nor has the pin reset yet. Waiting to see what happens next.

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