(Topic ID: 70775)

The Firepower Club

By wiredoug

10 years ago


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#2133 5 years ago

I just picked up a Firepower and I need a few parts, plus some help/links if anyone would be so kind.

- tutorial on how to replace the lock in the back box (the bracket looks okay)
- Inkochnito Bridge Board
- plastics set
- cliffy lane guides

Feel free to pm me if you have any of that stuff laying around.

1 month later
#2200 5 years ago

I just bought plastics for $40 more :/. Regardless, this is completely amazing.

1 week later
#2216 5 years ago

I started to clean up the Firepower I got, but when I plugged everything back in, I ended up with this two wire molecules plug that I cannot figure out where it goes. I also realized this machine has a rottendog MPU which I have heard mixed things about. Right now everything appears to work, but I can’t seem to get the game to start. I know the guy had it in free play, but I can’t figure out how to start a game :/. (Yes I know where the start button is)

289EB062-688C-41E0-8742-CC839F760C14 (resized).jpeg289EB062-688C-41E0-8742-CC839F760C14 (resized).jpeg630E4A4B-80C0-42BC-B2DD-6439C16EE49A (resized).jpeg630E4A4B-80C0-42BC-B2DD-6439C16EE49A (resized).jpeg
#2217 5 years ago

Never mind on the black+brown molex I found it hidden in the wire nest. Now I just can’t get the game to add credits or free play. Balls installed, and coindoor safety switch is closed.

I played it just before I moved it and it had no issue. :/

#2219 5 years ago
Quoted from dzorbas:

The ball trough switches can be finicky. Go into switch test mode with all three balls in there and make sure the switches are all closed. If you've got everything plugged in properly that's where I would start.

Ummmmm…yeah…three balls :/. Ok, it works. I thanks!

1 week later
#2259 5 years ago
Quoted from Joydivision:

I agree, that would be great. I have opted for the next best thing - two Firepower playfields, One with stand ups & one with drop targets. It only take a few minutes to swap them over. I have to say both play very differently, I much prefer the drops.

The drop targets are easy to install? I figured you would need new code or something to trigger the reset? Perhaps this is simply a function of the drop target system?

Also, where do you get matching drops for Firepower? Was the game really designed for drops, but the normal targets were used to save money?

Sorry…so many questions!

3 weeks later
#2309 5 years ago

Does anyone know wtf this board is? Mine appears to have a disconnected resistor and has some heat damage. The game still runs despite this, so I am curious what exactly I am looking at.

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#2311 5 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

It's the warming circuit for the flashers. It supplies a tiny amount of power all the time to keep the filaments warm. It also keeps the bulbs from burning out quickly. If you are using leds you need to clip one leg of the large resistor to disable. If you don't the leds will stay on dim all the time.

Oh, interesting. What if you use a mix of LED and incandescent?

Also, thanks for the info!

#2313 5 years ago

What type of lube do you use on these? I cleaned them with an ultrasonic cleaner, then put zoom spout filler oil on them. They still fell stiffer than I would expect.

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#2316 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Did you disassemble the pivot points and clean out the old lubricant with a light solvent (electrical contact cleaner, WD40, etc)?
I put a drop of any oil on the playfield bracket pivot point. I never lube any plunger link pivot points.

Yes, I disassembled them completely, then ran them through the ultrasonic. After that was done I ran pipe cleaners through the holes and removed any residual gunk. They are really clean. I thought they might need some oil since the linkage did not feel smooth when I actuated it. I put a few tiny drops of zoom spout filler oil in there, which helped, but didn't produce the effect I was expecting.

#2317 5 years ago
Quoted from Andy_B:

Looks like the plungers could do with a bit of a polish.
I personally wouldn't put oil anywhere on these pieces. As long as they are clean and polished you should be fine. At a push you could lubricate the pin attached to the part that screws to the playfield (if that makes sense).
Don't put oil on the plungers. Unless you regularly like cleaning black, oily gunk from them

Does it make a big difference to polish the parts in a vibratory tumbler? I figured cleaning them was enough. Will the polishing make the action more smooth?

#2326 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Polish those plungers a little, put new sleeves in the coils. Use a fine file or emery stick to take any burr off the plunger tip.
That is not a "high action" part, so it only needs to kick the balls out, nothing fancy.
I use the same Zoom Spout Oil that I put in a little Needle Oiler.
Remember folks, almost nothing on a pin needs oil, only the metal on metal pivot points.

Do you take that fiber board off when you put them in the tumbler?

#2327 5 years ago

Is there any way to remove mylar from under the pop bumpers without removing the pop bumpers? Everything about the disassembly of the pop bumpers was easy until I got to those damn light wires!

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#2331 5 years ago

Does anyone know how to get these little metal things out of the old plastic so that I can put them into the new plastic? I assume I grind them down somehow, but I am not entirely sure how to do that without trashing the old plastic or bending the little bells. Ideally someone would just sell these and I could get some kind of grommet hammer and put them on the new plastic.

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#2332 5 years ago

vid1900 you mention the long nose upholstery stapler to put the pop bumpers back together, is there a manual tool which can do that? It seems a bit unnecessary for me to buy a $100+ staple gun for a few pop bumpers. That said, I also don’t want to try to push the old staples back in.

Does anyone ever just solder shielded wire to the lamp post, then run it down to the junction? I feel like the lighting replacement in the pop bumpers is unnecessarily complex. I laugh at the fact that these machines have unshielded wire stapled all over the bottom of the playfield like an electric spider web.

#2335 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Stick your soldering iron in the hole and they just pull out with a twist.

My god, that worked like a charm! Can I install them the same way?

#2336 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

You can use a $20 20 gauge pneumatic stapler if you want from HF.
or a manual staple gun (your going to have a sore hand).

Yep
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-hardtop-restoration-comet#post-4470189
[quoted image]

You don't have to follow that path:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-re-populating-playfields#post-4559360

Wow! You are awesome! I owe you a few beers and some games of Scorpion next time you come to Phoenix!

#2337 5 years ago
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-hardtop-restoration-comet#post-4470189
[quoted image]

Looks like comet stopped selling these .

#2339 5 years ago

Huh…I looked all over. I must have missed it. Thanks again!

#2340 5 years ago

The machine I am restoring has a disconnected knocker. Upon further inspection, the paper on the coil is burned. So that probably means someone soldered it out due to an issue.

The question I have is can you just put any coil in there? I have one laying around that someone gave me because they thought they needed it for the slingshot in their theater of magic.

#2344 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Check the driver and pre-driver transistors BEFORE you replace that coil.

This game has a RottenDog MPU, so I suspect that it could have had much bigger issues at some point. The prior owner didn't even notice that it was unhooked when I called it out. I guess I could just solder it back on and do some testing?

#2346 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

There is no rush for a working knocker, so get the correct coil on your next parts order.

I'm going to deploy this one to my friends bar once I get it totally restored...well, I should say...restored to the best of my ability. I like the knocker in the bar so that people can hear when the credits hit the machine, especially with the Payrange device to pay for it. You're right, it is not the end of the world, but it would be nice. .

I'll do the test you suggested and find out what was going on. For all I know, it works perfectly.

#2348 5 years ago
Quoted from someotherguy:

The "knocker" from that era is pretty tame so if your friend's bar is loud, you might consider some modification. It's more of a...thumper. Not a neck-snapping jolt of WTF like one from a system 11 game...
Richard

I have a Scorpion in the bar that has nearly the same make up (as far as I can tell)…the knocker in that is perfect as you really just need the clicking to prove you coined up with the PayRange device.

I’ll keep everyone posted on my pending house fire .

#2351 5 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

It doesn’t show a credit on the credit display?

Yes, but I have seen plenty of people not even able to find the start button…I’ll take all the indicators I can get .

#2353 5 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Sounds like for those people if the knocker worked, they would think the game is breaking. Haha.

It is true...I love coining up while my friends are playing. It is funny to watch them jump . At this point, I'm just trying to show 30 and 40 somethings how great pinball is. A lot of us missed the boat because of the arcades. Not that I don't love arcades, but pinball has become something really amazing to me. I think a lot of people in my age range have played it, but never really understood how strategic and skillful it can be.

Bringing these old games into the bar has been extremely fun for me. It is not easy work, and I make less than I spend on them, but the enjoyment I get when watching people play them for the first time is unmatched.

1 week later
#2354 5 years ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

Does anyone know how to get these little metal things out of the old plastic so that I can put them into the new plastic? I assume I grind them down somehow, but I am not entirely sure how to do that without trashing the old plastic or bending the little bells. Ideally someone would just sell these and I could get some kind of grommet hammer and put them on the new plastic. [quoted image]

vid1900 your trick to get them out with the soldering iron worked like magic…but how do you put them in the new plastic?

#2365 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Use soldering iron to remove Bell
Use drill bit or punch to keep cinched hole from becoming deformed (like an internal die)
Use NN pliers to squeeze the lip against the punch shaft - flattening out the lip

The video is awesome! Thank you @vid1900.

Do they sell new ones and some kind of “flanger” I could just strike them with? They kind of remind me of those grommets you can buy at Lowe’s.

#2367 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

New ones are $8 each, so don't lose the old ones.
Originally, they were cinched in a press, so a die would press them into shape.

Wow! For $8 I think the soldering iron trick is perfect . Thanks again!

#2380 5 years ago

Would anyone have an idea why when I hit the top right pop bumper, it ends the game? It is almost like a tilt or something. Here is the video on OneDrive.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoOAKOlC8vIXgoVwxkGMdelFJxlmwg

#2381 5 years ago

Ok, scratch that last post, it was a Short where a wire a staple was hitting the pop bumpers bracket.

Now I have one that only happens when I hit both flippers at the same time. They work completely fine independently.

#2383 5 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

Both flipper reset sounds like your power supply is on the edge of low. Meter to see.

What do I meter to test the power supply? I’ll search, just posting this in case you have a quick answer .

#2385 5 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

Has the power supply been serviced in the last 10 or so years? If not you should go ahead and start there.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6/page/2#post-957584
It's more than likely the capacitors or the bridge rectifier.

I don’t know. It is a rotten dog mpu. I bought the machine and t was working great, just very worn. I’ve rebuilt/cleaned most of the playfield parts, but didn’t touch anything inside of the back box. I’ll read Vid’s guide and meter some things.

#2386 5 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

Has the power supply been serviced in the last 10 or so years? If not you should go ahead and start there.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6/page/2#post-957584
It's more than likely the capacitors or the bridge rectifier.

Now that I look at it, this cap looks serviced for sure.

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#2387 5 years ago

Even more strange to me…I can hold the left flipper, then hit the right flipper all I want. I can hold the left flipper, then hit the right flipper all I want. The only time the game shuts down is when you hit both flippers at the exact same time.

What could cause that?

#2389 5 years ago
Quoted from setzkor:

Still consistent with a power supply problem as the hold coil current draw is lower than the initial flip. Does the game just end or is it more of a reboot? As mentioned it sounds like you have a low power situation when you have high draw from both flippers.

The game is ends, but the game sounds don’t stop like a normal 3 ball end. You can coin up and start over, then you end up with the same thing.

I’m starting to see that if you play it for a bit, then hit both flippers at the same exact time it might not end the game.

I’m not super knowledgeable about pinball boards, but from my experience with arcades, I would suggest that it is a cap issue.

What are your thoughts?

#2391 5 years ago
Quoted from mof:

I have an intermittent short on my top right pop bumper, so I have a fuse breaker on it... Can you take a pic of what you discovered ?
-mof

If you look under the playfield there is a metal bracket that holds the coil in place for the bumper. What you need to do is put one end of your multimeter on that metal bracket, then the other on each of the two leads coming in to power the light.

Mine was a simple issue where one of the staples was too close to the bracket and it would complet the circuit.

I can take a picture ASAP, but hopefully this description will help.

#2392 5 years ago

Update: I installed Inkochnito’s Bridge Rectificatier board since I had planned on doing it anyway. Usually I wait until everything is working before I make modifications, but I was wondering if eliminating that big cap would help my issue.

Sure enough, installing the board has fixed my problem and removed my risk of fire .

2 weeks later
#2419 5 years ago

So I broke my game somehow. The rottendog MPU doesn’t seem to want to boot. The power comes on, all the lights come on, but the scoreboard doesn’t light up, and the game won’t start.

It shut down while I was adjusting a switch but accidentally tapped one pole of a solenoid. The whole game just went dark. I didn’t feel anything, so I assumed I just grounded the low voltage. After I power cycled it, it would light up but not move any further.

I checked all of the fuses, but none of them had failed. Any ideas?

#2423 5 years ago
Quoted from Billc479:

Basics - verify voltages on all the test points, especially the power supply, then on the Rottendog.

Is there a document which lists the test points and expected values?

1 week later
#2435 5 years ago
Quoted from Billc479:

http://www.firepowerpinball.com/ the schematics show actual voltages at different points on the schematic.
http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7 This is an excellent writeup on all Williams system 3 thru 7 systems.
Between these two references, that should be just about everything you need to troubleshoot and get the game going. Continue to post progress.

Ok, I was able to read through this stuff, but I still have my issue . I think I need some assistance specifically targeted to the Rottendog MPU.

The game starts up, and lights all of the general illumination, then nothing. The scoreboard and flashers never light, which I assume has something to do with the high voltage feed.

Left untouched both LEDs on the board stay lit. If I press the test button, the bottom LED will turn off, but the top stays lit. I switched IC27 and IC36 according to some post I found, but that didn’t change anything.

I would appreciate any help this tread can throw my way. I’m stressing about this seeing as I literally rebuilt the whole game then F’ed it up at the last possible moment.

#2437 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Disconnect everything but the power to the MPU.
Now read us the voltages.
Also switch your meter to A/C, and give us the ripple on the 5v line.

OK, the complexity here is that I cannot find a schematic for this board, so I'm going based off my eye. This Rottendog board seems to have six test points right in the center (red circle). These give me the following values:

TP2 NMI 4.8 Vdc
TP4 BLNK 0 V
TP5 IRQ 4.7 Vdc
TP6 BUS 2.0 Vdc
TP7 RST 0.5 Vdc
TP9 VCC 4.8 Vdc

These were measured after unplugging all of the molex plugs in the yellow circles.

Lastly, I'm going to need some tips on the 5v ripple measurement. I am not certain where to get that for you.

IMG_0332 (resized).jpgIMG_0332 (resized).jpg
#2439 5 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

Where is your battery (cr2430). That might make a difference. The board won't boot correctly without the battery to "remember" which game it's running. Have you done the board setup from the beginning?
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

It never had a battery, I assumed it didn’t need it with that NVRAM chip installed?

I’ll read these instructions, thank you! I can’t find anything for this board.

#2443 5 years ago

@vid1900, Travish and Schwaggs thank you so much for the help!! Here is what I’ve discovered according to your posts.

Running steps a-j on the self-test that Travish linked produce the exact result expected. I don’t see any issue there.

vid1900 where is the 5V on the power supply board? I can’t find anything less than 10V When measuring all of the caps and fuses. I attached a picture of my layout, perhaps someone could circle it?

Schwaggs I can see a slight orange dot in every one of the displays when I look closely.

On the 5V issue, I want everyone to remember this was working perfectly up until the moment I was adjusting with one of the “fire” rollover switches and grounded my tool against a pop bumper solenoid. There was no spark or shock, but the game immediately cut the displays out, and stopped making noises.

Prior to that, I had an issue with the big blue cap, but seemed to have resolved it by ripping it out and installing the Inkochnito bridge board.

Again, I really appreciate the time you are all putting into this!

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#2445 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

[quoted image]

Sorry, I should have realized that from tracing the wires. All four spots read exactly 5Vdc with no flutter. I also metered them at the end of the cable where they hit the board, they maintain, so that rules out the cable as well.

I can look at the back of the board and see if the jumpers need reflowed. I’ll post back in 10-15 minutes.

#2446 5 years ago

Sorry for the delay…

I pulled the board out and measured all three 5Vdc feeds heading into the board. They measure 5Vdc on the underside as well, so I think that rules out the need for re-pinning.

The underside of the board looks good. I don’t see any cold joints or obvious issues besides this one red jumper. I don’t know if that was factory installed by Rottendog or not.

Any tips on where to go next?

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#2449 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

So you have good 5v and good display power, that’s good. We need to focus on why blanking is not deactivating. Do you have a logic probe?
Are you sure the PIA you installed in IC 18 is good? Do you have another you can ista there?

I do have a logic probe, but you're going to tell me how to use it . I've used it for arcade repair, and basically just validating that ICs are causing the thing to blink.

As for IC18, I haven't touched it. I found another post (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/i-think-i-blow-my-rootebdog-mpu327#post-4040208) where they recommended swapping IC27 and IC36, so I did that with no change . I haven't followed the posts advice on replacing U17 because frankly I can't find the damn thing on the board.

At this point I wouldn't necessarily rule out anything being "bad" but as I stated earlier, this issue most likely came from the grounding of a rollover switch to a pop bumper solenoid. I would suspect pretty minimal damage seeing as everything was working 100% prior to that (maybe that is a false assumption?).

Thank you again!

#2452 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Thanks vid1900 MUCH better!
The switch matrix enters the board through 2J2 and 2J3 then on to IC27 which is probably why someone suggested swapping those as a troubleshooting step. However, the signal that drives the Blanking is derived from IC18. Can you swap the chips between IC27 and IC18? If that doesn't change things, we will break out the logic probe to see if the CPU is actually running. If it passed all the Leon diagnostics, I suspect the CPU is running but we need to start somewhere.

Swapped them, same problem . All of the values are roughly the same, but my 4.8Vdc is now 4.9Vdc.

#2454 5 years ago

Here is a video of the self-test


I think that is the desired result, but you can verify.

I don’t have any spare chips laying around, as this is how the machine was configured when I purchased it. Are you saying the purple NVRAM chip is in the socket where you would normally put a CMOS chip? Wouldn’t that have ensured that it would never have worked?

I can buy whatever chips you recommend, and get them here ASAP for testing. I have a #CV and a #TNA if that would help, but I’m not jumping at the chance to destroy either of those .

I need to look at your posts again and see what you said about resetting the CMOS ram…I’m not entirely certain how to do that.

#2455 5 years ago

Unfortunately I can’t find the comment about resetting the CMOS RAM :/.

Also, just so that I can align with your terms, in this picture below I think the green = CPU, red = CMOS and blue = NVRAM?

4CC2D4C6-06CA-4416-9FE5-8B407E7DD369 (resized).jpeg4CC2D4C6-06CA-4416-9FE5-8B407E7DD369 (resized).jpeg
#2458 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Agree, that looks like the desired result.
The CMOS Reset instructions are here:

You need to do this with the board set to run the Firepower game.

Ok, I did this. Assuming “open” = on for DS1 switch 7. No change :/.

Tell me what chips to buy and I’ll start shotgunning parts .

#2461 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Well, that would really be a shot in the dark, you already moved the likely failed parts between sockets with no change. The only thing I could suggest is the NVRAM module since that is the error code the LEDs indicate.
Try this, remove the solenoid fuse (to prevent solenoids from locking on) and set the DIP switches to another few games like Blackout, Black Knight, etc. See if you can get the board to start up. We are trying to see if the ROM was corrupted.
If that doesn't get the board to attract, break out your logic probe. Connect the power leads to ground and 5V test points on the power supply board. Set the switch on the probe to TTL and probe the pins around the CPU IC1. Almost every pin should be pulsing. Tell us which pin numbers are not pulsing.
Are you sure you don't want to send the board to RD for repair?

Just so I am clear, we’re talking about this fuse for the solenoids? The schematic says 2.5amp 28Vdc SB, but the one in my game is a 10amp 32Vdc.

What is “RD for repair”?

8E361C0A-8297-42BE-BA93-06A121335796 (resized).jpeg8E361C0A-8297-42BE-BA93-06A121335796 (resized).jpeg
#2462 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Well, that would really be a shot in the dark, you already moved the likely failed parts between sockets with no change. The only thing I could suggest is the NVRAM module since that is the error code the LEDs indicate.
Try this, remove the solenoid fuse (to prevent solenoids from locking on) and set the DIP switches to another few games like Blackout, Black Knight, etc. See if you can get the board to start up. We are trying to see if the ROM was corrupted.
If that doesn't get the board to attract, break out your logic probe. Connect the power leads to ground and 5V test points on the power supply board. Set the switch on the probe to TTL and probe the pins around the CPU IC1. Almost every pin should be pulsing. Tell us which pin numbers are not pulsing.
Are you sure you don't want to send the board to RD for repair?

Ignore my last post…I pulled the fuse and risked it. I set the board to Disco Fever and the displays lit right up. What does that mean?

#2464 5 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

It means set it back to firepower and try again. When I first set up a RD for one of mine a few things were wonky. I called and they said start over from the beginning that maybe one of the rocker switches may not have been all the way or making contact or something. When I did that everything was back to normal. Can't hurt, might help. ??
Other than that call them and see what they say.

Ok…good logic . I tried it, and oddly it sparked to life for about a half second, then blanked back out. I saw the scoreboards light up, and heard the solenoid kick the balls in the trough, then it went right back to dark.

I switched back to Disco Fever (one dip switch) and sure enough, all of the scoreboards light up.

Can anyone explain what I am seeing?

#2465 5 years ago

This piece of sh*t is really making me crazy. Nothing seems to trigger the board to run the game properly. The whole thing when it jumped after switching in and out of the Firepower mode makes me think it is some kind of short or something. :/

#2467 5 years ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Jumping in late but did you check all your votages?

Yeah, that started back on this post https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-firepower-club/page/49#post-4633529. Basically the board appears to run in any game except Firepower.

#2470 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You could try and reseat the ROM chip (IC22) to see if it is a weak connection in the socket.
If that does not work, contact RD support (call or email) and ask them what they suggest. They may want to send you a new ROM chip to try.

No dice, but ty for the suggestion.

Every other game I’ve tested on the board seems to post to the displays and kick the solenoids (yes I tested that with my finger on the power switch). It st seems illogical to me that only one game on the rom would be bad, and the rest completely fine.

Is there any specific thing that Firepower looks for during startup that these other games wouldn’t have?

#2473 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Firepower has a very large program compared to most games of that era. It was one of the only (maybe the only) game to use all the ROM and PROM sockets on the system 6 board. All that means is that the game program takes up a little more of the CPU address space. So the problem could be the ROM has been damaged, the CPU damaged or something else damaged that is pulling down the CPU address space.
One thing you could try is check your sound board to see if it has a 6802 CPU chip. If it does, try swapping the CPU from the sound card into IC1 on the RD board.
You could still have a bad 6821 somewhere on the RD board. Might be a good shotgun approach to get some known good 6821 chips and instead of swapping them around on the RD board to put some new ones on the RD board.

Does anyone here have a working ROM or CPU I could buy? Seeing as I don't have the extra parts to rule out the issues. Hell, at this point, if anyone has an extra board laying around, I'd consider that as well :/.

#2475 5 years ago

So I got a call from Rottendog (really nice of them). They told me there is a secret Firepower on the board if you set the dip switches to 101001. I did that, and sure enough the displays come up, and they will display the settings.

I don't know if this hidden version is a fully working version, but what I get is interesting. With the coin door open, I get to "settings" views on the displays, but I cannot change any of the values. With the coin door closed, I get the player one light flashing, with the high score light blinking every few seconds. It displays 350000 on the player one score screen. I can't seem to start this version of the game, but at least I see something different.

I am planning on calling Rottendog back as soon as possible, I have just been busy traveling for work. I figured I would update this thread as I find things out in the event it helps someone else as well.

#2479 5 years ago

vid1900 or Schwaggs sorry to bother, but do you have any further ideas after reading that last post I had? I really want to get this thing in working order. I hope to get a call back from Rottendog, but I think it would be wise to tap the experts as well .

Again, thank you for your time!

#2481 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Go into Switch Test and see if the switches respond

I would love to do that, but the menu options are way off and I can’t seem to influence them at all. Here is a video of what I am seeing. Added bonus my wife telling me dinner is ready in the background.

Like I said, idk if this secret Firepower can actually be played. The thing that I can’t figure out is why the other games work, and the secret game works, but the regular game doesn’t work :/.

#2484 5 years ago
Quoted from Madal:

Just thinking has the shorted coil may have something to do with it.
Have you tryed disconnecting the popbumber coil you shorted ? Then test Firepower.
After you shorted it did you check that coil ?
Is that coil used in the ather games?
Never know!

I've only done continuity tests on it to ensure it is not grounded. I could probably disconnect it if you think that could be a problem. Like I said, I assume the short occurred between that and a rollover switch while I was adjusting the rollover switch. Could that have actually damaged the coil?

Thanks!

#2487 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

From what I can read on the MP327 schematic, they did not implement CMOS Memory Protect so you should see the same behavior with the door open or closed. All this means is we don't have to worry about the memory protect switch on the coin door working or suspect any memory protect circuitry on the board like you would with original boards.
I would try a new NVRAM or install a 6264 standard RAM chip (U36) but that would require a battery too. It could be that the NVRAM is not taking the changes when you are running through settings.

If this were the case, the displays should light up when I power it up in Firepower mode right? In theory I could probably boot it without the NVRAM chip installed and then it should just post the vanilla game right? Or is that chip required for operation?

#2489 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Not positive what it will do without the NVRAM installed. Some games will not boot that way. It won't hurt anything to try booting with it removed.

Ok, this causes it to do nothing. It boots but never attempts to start the displays. I ordered another nvram. Hopefully that will rule out any issue there.

#2491 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I did not re-read the whole thread, but does the MPU work in Scorpion?

Good question! I guess I could take it to the bar and find out. I didn't think about that. I will try that this weekend.

Also I'm trying to hook up with a guy from Rottendog who has been nice enough to reach out to me. My hope is that I can get this thing back to working ASAP because having a broken Firepower sucks :/.

Thanks @vid1900! I'll keep everyone posted.

#2493 5 years ago
Quoted from orangegsx:

Signs of life from my project finally. Was kind of holding off until I had good boards. Still have a ram issue though. Can’t wait.
[quoted image]

Looking nice!

#2501 5 years ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

Good question! I guess I could take it to the bar and find out. I didn't think about that. I will try that this weekend.
Also I'm trying to hook up with a guy from Rottendog who has been nice enough to reach out to me. My hope is that I can get this thing back to working ASAP because having a broken Firepower sucks :/.
Thanks vid1900! I'll keep everyone posted.

Well, if anyone is still following this, I replaced the NVRAM, and nothing happened. Is there some sort of ROM that drives this Rottendog board? Based on the weirdness I see, I suspect somehow the code is faulty.

#2502 5 years ago

I am wondering if the behavior I am seeing is the result of some kind of grounding or short. Is there a vid1900 guide to finding shorts or testing resistance properly?

#2506 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Does it boot when you have it on the bench connected to a computer power supply?
Does it boot when installed into Scorpion?

I haven’t been able to get it over to my scorpion yet. It isn’t super easy to get it over to the bar.

I can boot it into other games and it will fire solenoids and boot the displays. I assume the board is at least kind of working as a result of that.

I will get it over to scorpion ASAP, I just need time. I figured I would exhaust everything possible at home first. I started wondering if it is a short.

Very oddly, I have a friend with a gorgar Gorgar that just started doing the exact same thing. His has the original board, and boots with all lights on, and the indication that the displays are getting power, but nothing displayed. You can’t start the game or get to the settings.

I find his even more strange as I know he wasn’t doing anything to it. He just turned it on. Obviously there is a System 6 Flu going around Phoenix. :/

#2507 5 years ago

I should say that when I saw my friends gorgar doing this, knowing he doesn’t work on his own games, I thought that perhaps there is something I am missing that could cause this.

#2513 5 years ago
Quoted from Madal:

Dont know if this is still a problem?
WARNING to Rottendog 327 owners - Check it now! | Tech: Early solid state | Pinside.com
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/warning-to-rottendog-327-owners-check-it-now

Yes, from what I can tell, this is a problem still. That said, whoever original installed the board actually put that tab on top of the PCB, not behind. It actually works perfectly like that and helps to hold the board in place.

Thank you for calling it out!

#2514 5 years ago
Quoted from Madal:

Easy test remove 2J12 plug off the board and see if it boots

What will this test? I will gladly do it, just trying to figure out what I'll gain.

#2517 5 years ago
Quoted from Madal:

I am just getting at the coil and the switch you shorted need to be taken out of question befor starting replacing stuff on the board !
If it was me I be looking where the problem started and working my way back to the board..
Its strange the board will boot on alther games settings !
I believe Most of these games dont use 4 Popbumpers.
I was thinking if you Pull 2J12 plug and start on Firepower setting.it be an EASY way to check.
Powering up the pinball with the 2J12 removed is ok.
If it works then theres a problem with the Coil/Popbumper line.
if it still dont work then yes it's 95% sure its a board problem.

Awesome! I am going to test this tonight. I didn't know the board would even boot without this connection.

#2518 5 years ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

Awesome! I am going to test this tonight. I didn't know the board would even boot without this connection.

I am having zero luck with this machine! It ran great for days, now I’ve destroyed it .

I went to test what Madal recommended and noticed that the solenoid fuse had blown. Further, I noticed that it was a 10A 32V fuse. The power supply calls for a 2.5A 28V fuse, so I don’t know how big of a deal that is (seems to me like I had a huge pipe for very similar pressure?).

I replaced the fuse, and now none of the games work. Doesn’t matter is 2J12 is unplugged or not, everything follows the same pattern, small light in otherwise dark displays, all GI on, no sounds or solenoids.

I’m about to give up and call the local pinball guy .

#2520 5 years ago
Quoted from Madal:

At a loss there !
Never had a problem with the 2J12 plug been removed then powering up the game !
And for it to take out a fuse !
Is F3 the the only fuse that had blow out?
[quoted image]

I don’t see any “F” numbers on the board, but it is this one...

96149514-623D-47C5-A94C-E085C9791BBB (resized).jpeg96149514-623D-47C5-A94C-E085C9791BBB (resized).jpeg
#2522 5 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

Something tells me there have been a bunch of "f's" just not on the board.

LOL!

I have a new MPU327 on the way from Rottendog. Probably a waste of money, but I don't know what else to do other than piss dollars into the wind and hope I can fix it.

As for the fuses, can anyone tell me where you buy a 2.5A 32Vdc Slow Blow fuse???

IMG_0434 (resized).jpegIMG_0434 (resized).jpeg
#2535 5 years ago

So, I just installed the new Rottendog board and of course everything works perfectly. Apparently that was the problem, the question is why.

I need to find someone who can fix the broken one so that I can sell it and make back some of the money I’ve lost.

#2537 5 years ago
Quoted from Madal:

Good news! you got it working again

Yeah, I am happy that it is working. I would love to understand how I broke it. It seems unlikely that my fiddling around with a rollover switch could have broken it.

That said, the solenoid fuse which was installed was too large. Possibly there was a jolt that fried something?

Furthermore now that it is fixed, and I have the correct fuse installed, something is blowing that fuse after a while. I either have a short somewhere, or one of the solenoids is bad.

I am going to do some testing today, then report back. Hopefully I am not annoying everyone with this saga, I just figured it could help someone else if I record what is going on.

#2539 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Congrats on getting it back up and running. RD will fix your board for you.

They said they will only fix boards in the warranty period . I need to find someone who wants to fix it, or buy it broken. I’m sure it is not hard to fix, I just don’t have the time to deal with it.

#2541 5 years ago
Quoted from Madal:

Installing one those will stop a bad coil from blowing the board.
Have them in my Firepower & Scorpion. As I know whats its like to have a short blowing parts on the Driver board.
This why its just a fuse and no damage to the board.
Williams System 3 - 7 Special Solenoid Saver.
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1055-nvramweeblycom/00585-williams-system-3-7-special-solenoid-saver-

OK, good call. I'm going to do this! This #firepower is some kind evil monster. In play testing last night the f'ing kicker fiber boards attached to the plunger actually cracked apart. I'm seriously going to have to put like 100 hours on this machine before I deploy it to my friends bar.

#2546 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Companies only work on their own stuff so long, then you have to find 3rd party repair people to fix it.
If you call Stern to fix your 70s Stern boards, they'll tell you they no longer work on them.
If you call Apple to fix your Gen 1 iPod battery, they tell you it's obsolete.
If you blow your trans in your 2005 car, the dealer swaps it for a re-manufactured unit done by 3rd party.
Any pintech can fix those RD boards in minutes.

Yeah, I totally understood it. They gave me a working one for a very fair cost. I am happy with the service. I just need to find someone to fix it.

#2548 5 years ago
Quoted from someotherguy:

Not really a fair comparison; especially the Stern example as we're talking 40+ years. Can't speak to Apple products as I know nothing about them. The dealership example is not a good one either as in 2018 they will still work on your 2005 model car as long as you're willing to pay.
In this case we're talking about a current product that the maker will not repair because it is out of warranty. Defend them if you like; personally I'm not impressed. Good thing I know how to repair original boards and will continue to use those.
Richard

Do you want to repair a RD board?

#2557 5 years ago

Mine is finally looking and playing pretty good. Is there any way to “sure up” the lights inside of the pop bumpers? I probably should have used some different socket when I rebuilt them, but I ended up leaving them the same old socket :/.

5F00F4E8-F9F3-4C08-85AF-E69FB970BC73 (resized).jpeg5F00F4E8-F9F3-4C08-85AF-E69FB970BC73 (resized).jpeg
#2560 5 years ago
Quoted from Budwin:

Mine is not that far along, but at least it is up on four legs.
Next up the playfield !
Bud[quoted image]

Nice. I wish I was brave enough to try the hard top. Can’t wait to see it.

#2564 5 years ago

I fixed the knocker in my game, but I am having a weird issue where the piston thing sticks to the plate at the top. I have a brand new sleeve and coil. It does no seem magnetic, but maybe stuck in the sleeve, so I tried some graphite which made it worse. I bent the top of the bracket a tiny bit thinking that maybe it was making a kind of suction connection with it.

Nothing has worked. Do I have he piston backwards? I assumed the hollowed out “cup side” was designed to hit the metal plate.

#2568 5 years ago
Quoted from Billc479:

It sounds like the plunger is binding. Make sure the plunger and coil are a straight line when the plunger is fully extended. Eyeball should be good.

I'm going to get out my level...I'll report back!

3 weeks later
#2602 5 years ago

Anyone selling a new back glass? I am possibly in the marke for a remake perfect version.

#2605 5 years ago

Any idea what Mayfair charges?

#2619 5 years ago

Great info about the back glass everyone…thank you!

#2623 5 years ago
Quoted from KJS:

Just finished my restore. Here is the glass from Bally Bingo in the Netherlands. I'm very happy with it.
Pics are a bit blown out colour wise due to phone camera sorry. Its not that rainbow puke in real life![quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I really like the red skirts on those pop bumpers. That looks great!

1 week later
#2644 5 years ago

One of my pop bumpers stopped firing and I cannot for the life of me understand how to get into the switch test or solenoid test. The instructions say turn to page 7 where it tells you how to reset the high score :/. Any tips?

#2652 5 years ago
Quoted from orangegsx:

Packing my game up to go into the basement. Didn’t realize it was one of the brick bottoms.
[quoted image]

Is there a significance to that? I have one of those too. I never understood why it was like that.

2 weeks later
#2676 5 years ago

I have these leftover from my restoration. They are fairly nice. Is anyone interested?

499D79FB-03BF-44BD-BA82-247052475615 (resized).jpeg499D79FB-03BF-44BD-BA82-247052475615 (resized).jpeg
#2683 5 years ago

FYI I to a couple of PMs on the plastic. It is off the market until I deal with the first come first served people .

1 month later
#2740 5 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

Sorry such a late bloomer but can someone tell me if the OEM caps were an off white? Are the repro caps worth a shit?
Before and after
[quoted image]

I think they are supposed to be white. I have 4 new ones I bought on eBay that aren’t bad. I never used them because my original ones actually cleaned up. If you are interested, let me know and I can get you some pictures.

#2750 5 years ago

$400? That never happens for me.

#2761 5 years ago
Quoted from dzorbas:

You have a couple of options. Mayfair Amusements in New York, Planetary Pinball was selling them but looks like they're out of stock again. I don't know if CPR ever did them or might do them.
It won't be cheap. I got mine from Mayfair a couple of years ago. After exchange and stuff, it was almost $500 CDN. I had a friend pick it up at the Allentown pinball show. It was cheaper than shipping and much safer.

Marcos has them in stock, but I don’t know who made them so I am unsure of the quality.

1 week later
#2774 5 years ago

Can anyone tell me where I would buy a backglass lift bar for this game? Also, do your games have trim around the back glass? If so, which trim is used?

#2781 5 years ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

I just bought a back glass from Marcos last week. I think the quality is pretty good. The colors look right, and the the mirroring looks good.[quoted image]

Looks fantastic! Mine is on the way. $200 is a steal for that.

1 week later
#2804 5 years ago

I have the rottendog board and the game keeps “shorting out” it seems. I know about the problem where the metal tabs can contact the board, and it is certainly not that, but it is the exact same effect.

Are there any other boards than rotten dog? I feel like these boards are just flakey.

#2811 5 years ago
Quoted from AdjustFailure:

Mine with Rottendog was dropping randomly into "GAME OVER", it was a bad connection on the 5V supply to the board back at the power supply. Once corrected the problem went away. I forget the connector and pin involved but it was the power to the MPU board, not the board itself. Perhaps ensure all connectors that are supposed to provide 5V are good at all connection points. Just a suggestion.

Thank you! I will check this ASAP!

#2816 5 years ago
Quoted from Budwin:

Finally finished my FP restore with HardTop.
Pretty challenging PF swap, but worth it.
Playing it now and loving it.[quoted image][quoted image]

Did you do something to the back of the play field? It looks sealed or something.

#2820 4 years ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

Thank you! I will check this ASAP!

I verified all of the connections, everything looks good. Any other ideas?

2 weeks later
#2843 4 years ago

I’m still having issues with my second Rottendog board. This one is resetting consistently when I hit both flippers at the exact same time. It doesn’t do it if you hold one of the flippers and then hit the other. Only when you time them perfectly.

I had imagined I could get some support from Rottendog since I just bought it from them, but I am not getting anything back from them. :/.

#2845 4 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Check the diodes on the flipper coils. Physically move them to make sure they are not broken. If in doubt, replace them.
What power supply are you using again? New or original? Rebuilt with what parts replaced?

Original power supply with the bridge board kit installed. I’ll check out the flipper diodes. Any way to test them? Is just a simple multimeter proving power goes one direction enough?

#2848 4 years ago
Quoted from Travish:

I vote for power supply. When you hit both it pulls the power low enough to reset.

Is there a fix for that? Like an old cap or something?

#2850 4 years ago
Quoted from canoncitypb:

I had the same issue awhile back. you can search back in this topic. New caps fixed it. I have a rottendog board as well.

Ok, did you just recap the whole power board? If so, do you have a list of the caps required?

#2852 4 years ago
Quoted from AdjustFailure:

Just to figure out if it is the same symptom I had -- when you say "resetting" when you hit both flippers does it instantly go into GAME OVER attract mode, but the sound effects continue on ...? If it is doing specifically that, I was told to check the 5V DC going to the MPU, so I cleaned and reseated that power supply connector and the problem went away.

Yeah, it is that exact same behavior. I checked all of the pins and they are super clean with no solder issues. I suspect that it is an issue with the voltage dropping when coming from the power supply. I’m leaning towards capping the power board then doing some tests. I just need to get a list of the caps. I’ll research it tonight.

#2853 4 years ago

Nvm on finding the caps, I found a kit right on pinside. I just bought that to keep it easy and avoid my complaining that Fry’s electronics has all but one of what I need.

1 month later
#2876 4 years ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

I'm far enough on my project, that I know I'll be ready to debut it at NWPAS later this month.
Firepower Duel: battle head-to-head on two linked Firepower pinball machines!
For more info, check in here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/firepower-duel-destroy-or-be-destroyed

Sounds amazing.

2 months later
#2945 4 years ago

Are there a common list of reasons that the F2 (2.5 AMP fuse) on the power board will blow? I have the solenoid protection kit installed with the daughter board that protects the MPU. That should cover me from most common solenoid issues. As for the power board...I don't know what this path is covering. I am feeling google incompetent in finding schematics for it :/.

I should add that I recapped the power supply. I reflowed the headers. The game will run for days without problem, then I'll get a report that I isn't working (it is always this fuse).

#2949 4 years ago

Yeah, that kit is awesome but based on my logic, I should never be able to blow the 2.5 amp fuse at F2.

#2952 4 years ago
Quoted from ss-pinball:

FP2 folks:
Does your ball ever end up back in the shooter lane?
Wondering about installing a one-way gate to prevent this from happening...
Has anyone done this?

I think the factory gate is a one way gate. I’ve never seen a FP without that.

1 month later
#3026 4 years ago

I’m struggling with reboots and blown fuses with my Firepower. For deeper context, I have been working on different parts of it for over a year. The game has all “new” boards, Rottendog MPU, NVRAM.Weebly Power Supply, and even some new sound board. It has the NVRAM solenoid saver and the bridge rectifier fuses board. Generally the game plays amazing, until it doesn’t.

I’ve done extensive switch tests and adjustments. Solenoid tests work perfectly. Frankly I am out of ideas.

What typically happens is that I will replace a blown solenoid fuse, or find an always on switch. I’ll get it back together and it plays for a while then repeats. But then there are times like right now where I can draw the reboot by hitting both flippers at the same time, or hitting them at the same time the second the ball rolls over another switch.

It is almost as if it is on the edge of what it can do, and the extra action pegs the board.

I know this must have to do with some kind of grounding or constant on coil, but I cannot find it. Is there some kind of suggested diagnostic procedure that could lead me to the ultimate issue?

Thanks for any tips!

#3037 4 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Both flipper resets can point to a couple things:
1) Bad diodes on the flipper coils - I'd replace them with new, even if they test or look good. Simple $0.20 thing to try first.
2) Bad power - since you have new CPU and power board, I would look at the connectors on the stock wiring harness.
a) 4A fuses on the fuse card on the cabinet wall below the power board. These fuse the AC leading into the 5V regulator. Corrosion or oxidation here could cause a low power situation.
b) Replace all the IDC connectors to the power board and J2 (left side) on the CPU board and J8 (bottom left) on the driver board with fresh new trifuricon crimp on connectors. Your new boards have shiny new pins but the wiring side of these connections are original and could be causing a voltage drop.
c) Replace the pins in J1 and J2 on the power supply board. This is ground and AC supply to the power board.

Ok, I’ll start testing this stuff. I did notice that the flipper coils are on backwards and the plastic on one of the coils is cracked. I wonder if I need to replace them.

#3039 4 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Both flipper resets can point to a couple things:
1) Bad diodes on the flipper coils - I'd replace them with new, even if they test or look good. Simple $0.20 thing to try first.
2) Bad power - since you have new CPU and power board, I would look at the connectors on the stock wiring harness.
a) 4A fuses on the fuse card on the cabinet wall below the power board. These fuse the AC leading into the 5V regulator. Corrosion or oxidation here could cause a low power situation.
b) Replace all the IDC connectors to the power board and J2 (left side) on the CPU board and J8 (bottom left) on the driver board with fresh new trifuricon crimp on connectors. Your new boards have shiny new pins but the wiring side of these connections are original and could be causing a voltage drop.
c) Replace the pins in J1 and J2 on the power supply board. This is ground and AC supply to the power board.

I did some work on it and I am fairly confident it is the connectors to the power board. Can you link me to the type you generally replace those with?

#3041 4 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Order as many contacts as there are pins on your connectors (I just order them in 100 bags)
These contacts for 18-20ga wires (thicker wires, typically for power)
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/08-52-0113?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%252BGHln7q6pm%252BS0pk2Wo0XxGug0%2F%252BLZPRY%3D
These contacts for 22-26ga wires (thinner wires, typically for switch matrix and solenoid drives)
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/08-50-0185?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%252BGHln7q6pm%252BS0pk2Wo0XxEf%252B86vVEeGs%3D
These housings (order the number of positions for the connectors you are replacing
https://www.mouser.com/Molex/Connectors/Headers-Wire-Housings/41695-Series/_/N-ay0lo?P=1yzvh2oZ1z0zlew
This crimp tool makes crimping on the contacts a breeze
amazon.com link »

Awesome! Ty.

3 months later
#3196 4 years ago
Quoted from bernieberg:

Local bar has a couple playfield coffee tables. One is a Firepower.[quoted image]

Nice. Did they light them?

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