(Topic ID: 70775)

The Firepower Club


By wiredoug

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 22 hours ago by Bugsy
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There are 3378 posts in this topic. You are on page 58 of 68.
#2851 11 months ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

resetting consistently when I hit both flippers

Just to figure out if it is the same symptom I had -- when you say "resetting" when you hit both flippers does it instantly go into GAME OVER attract mode, but the sound effects continue on ...? If it is doing specifically that, I was told to check the 5V DC going to the MPU, so I cleaned and reseated that power supply connector and the problem went away.

#2852 11 months ago
Quoted from AdjustFailure:

Just to figure out if it is the same symptom I had -- when you say "resetting" when you hit both flippers does it instantly go into GAME OVER attract mode, but the sound effects continue on ...? If it is doing specifically that, I was told to check the 5V DC going to the MPU, so I cleaned and reseated that power supply connector and the problem went away.

Yeah, it is that exact same behavior. I checked all of the pins and they are super clean with no solder issues. I suspect that it is an issue with the voltage dropping when coming from the power supply. I’m leaning towards capping the power board then doing some tests. I just need to get a list of the caps. I’ll research it tonight.

#2853 11 months ago

Nvm on finding the caps, I found a kit right on pinside. I just bought that to keep it easy and avoid my complaining that Fry’s electronics has all but one of what I need.

#2855 11 months ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

Nvm on finding the caps, I found a kit right on pinside. I just bought that to keep it easy and avoid my complaining that Fry’s electronics has all but one of what I need.

Oh, beat me to it.

#2857 11 months ago

IMHO never trust header solder connections on a 40 year old PC Board.

As I have been repairing several old PCBs I pry off the old plastic 9 pin header leaving the pins in the PCB.
I then heat the pins to let them fall out, this protects the PC board traces from heat and mechanical forces when using a de-soldering tool.
What I have noticed is that a large number of these pins come out when I pry the plastic off indicating they are not 'really' still connected.

These pins solder connection looked fine before I pried on the header housing.
So, the bottom line is the 'solder' ages and de-bonds from the pin to the PC board trace even if they look OK from the bottom side.
This de-bonding is likely caused by temperatures cycles as well as mechanical forces from plugging and un-plugging the connector over many years.

That is why Todd Tuckey's shop re-solders ALL header pins on PC boards as a standard procedure on all serviced pins and arcades. (watch the YouTubes)

#2858 11 months ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

Perfect! Ty!

To make your old power supply board last another 40 years, I suggest replacing the header pins in addition to the caps. Oxidation and bad solder joints on these pins is VERY common.

While you wait for your parts, take your 1/4” nut driver, loosen the two mounting screws on the voltage regulator (silver “bottle cap” part on the heat sink) and snug them back down. Those mounting screws are part of the electrical circuit and can develop bad connections over the years.

#2859 11 months ago

Kevin at CPR has just enhanced the Firepower plastic set to now include the prototype version plastics. The proto plastic version is smaller than the stand-up counterparts which is correct for drop setups & also has the word "try" included which is not on production plastics.

If you have a retro-fit you will know how using the bigger standard stand-up target plastics just doesn't look right with the overhang, so these should look great.

https://classicplayfields.com/shop/pinball-plastics/firepower/

They look spot on just like the protos that can be seen here:

https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=856&picno=66361

Thanks Kevin!

#2860 11 months ago
Quoted from Joydivision:

Kevin at CPR has just enhanced the Firepower plastic set to now include the prototype version plastics. The proto plastic version is smaller than the stand-up counterparts which is correct for drop setups & also has the word "try" included which is not on production plastics.
If you have a retro-fit you will know how using the bigger standard stand-up target plastics just doesn't look right with the overhang, so these should look great.
https://classicplayfields.com/shop/pinball-plastics/firepower/
They look spot on just like the protos that can be seen here:
https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=856&picno=66361
Thanks Kevin!

Awesome now we just need play fields redone and mirror back glasses!

#2861 11 months ago
Quoted from Budwin:

That is why Todd Tuckey's shop re-solders ALL header pins on PC boards as a standard procedure on all serviced pins and arcades. (watch the YouTubes)

Thank you for giving us credit! Leaky Batteries are the number one enemy, Colder Header Pins #2. and leaky capacitors #3!

#2862 11 months ago
Quoted from Joydivision:

If you have a retro-fit you will know how using the bigger standard stand-up target plastics just doesn't look right with the overhang, so these should look great.

Please PM me if you buy this new set and do NOT plan to use the two new drop target plastics, I'd love to buy the 2 pieces off ya !
-mof

#2863 11 months ago

listed some old displays on Ebay. Never tested them, never needed them, so time to move them on to someone else.

ebay.com link

#2864 11 months ago

I was playing around with FirePower on Pinmame and was curious about the sounds. It looks like there are 32 sounds. Does anyone know if this is restricted by hardware: 5-bit signal?

The sample that plays at the end of game seems to be triggered the same way each time, but plays a random sample. Has anyone looked at the sound ROM data? There's actually quite a few words used in that callout, and some re-scripting could be possible. Do any of the custom ROMs do this?

#2865 11 months ago

The sounds trigger from the CPU/Driver board solenoids 19-24, so yes, a 6 bit signal for all the System 3-6 games using sound boards.

Custom ROM's could re-script the sounds as part of the game ROM. Sound rom determines what the sounds are, game rom determines when they play. I don't know if anybody has cracked the sound rom format at all, though numerous people have worked with the game rom's at this point.

-Hans

#2866 11 months ago

I was thinking of going a step further when I said "re-script". Some of the sounds are multiple words. It would be interesting to split out the words and map them as individual sounds, and then new phrase combinations could be made. There's quite a few unused sounds indexed which could be repurposed.

By the way, do you still offer your larger EPROM adapter? I am working on a scratch re-programming of Firepower and wonder how carried away I can consider getting.

#2867 11 months ago

The words are all individual sound call-outs already, or at least most of them are, but I've never mapped the trigger combinations for each individual sound. I don't know if Jess Askey's info is still available online for how to decipher the game rom data. I have hard copies somewhere, but haven't done any of that in a long time. I'd start with earlier titles first if you're going to go down that rabbit-hole, because Firepower is immensely more complex than Gorgar.

I do still have the EPROM adapter, 30 or so left, they're all partially assembled and I dabble once in a while to get around to assembling all of them. Not much demand anymore.

-Hans

#2868 11 months ago

I've mapped all the sounds. All the interesting ones are longer sequences. Here are the end of games ones I was referring to. What's interesting is these are all triggered by the same bit-index. So there must be some smarts on the sound board to randomize them, and probably also to combine individual word samples together in different ways. But they are definitely not individually mapped words from the game code point of view.

you destroyed enemy mission....
you are enemy
enemy power one
mission 2 1 3
fire power destroyed
fire destroyed you

I see that okaegi's FP deluxe project patches the sound ROMs. I'm going to take a look at that and see if he's already done what I was thinking.

I have to get one of those adapters. With some diligence and maybe good fortune I may create some more demand for them too.

#2869 11 months ago

Did you do it via triggering the inputs on the sound board? I never really looked into how the speech is triggered, though I have some knowledge of how they are formed in the binary.

Solenoids are triggered via a hybrid code. Half 6800 assembly and half internal Williams code. The code block basically says "Trigger solenoid X for Y duration". If you've got one of my solenoid testers, you can use that to see which outputs are being triggered. Though in this case a logic analyzer may be a better choice to see actual timings of the different signals. It makes me wonder if it's a patterned sequence and not just single triggers.

-Hans

#2870 11 months ago

I'm only working in PinMAME right now writing straight assembly. Didn't the Williams virtual machine start with system 7? Firepower is 6.

That end game sound is 27, and it is the only one that varies, so it just looks like simple triggers but the sound board treats 27 special. The code I use just puts the 5-bit pattern in a memory location for a short span then clears it.

#2871 11 months ago

You've got me intrigued enough to try and find my notes. Turns out I only have HALF of my original notes, not sure where the rest went. Unfortunately it doesn't include the part that tells me where to find the switch table, which is what I used to use to find a starting point. My code ability isn't great to be honest, and it's probably been 6-7 years since I last looked at this.

My guess is that the basic structure is there still for System 6, but simpler, as there weren't dedicated sound driver PIA's yet, and the RAM/ROM space was much smaller. The software was more evolved for system 7, but it my brain is tingling when I look at the hex with bits of familiarity.

Good thing is most of Jess Askey's stuff is still online.
http://gamearchive.askey.org/Pinball/Manufacturers/Williams/PinBuilder/

#2872 11 months ago

I have no idea what you're saying in the second paragraph, ha...

But yeah, Askey's site is cool. It's the first interesting stop I stumbled upon when internet-wandering considering programming early solid states. I'm using TASMx.

I'm just going to use all the stock sounds, will leave the fancy stuff like splitting sounds for a later revision. I reached out to okaegi, and it sounds like he did do some sound manipulation to get new sounds.

1 week later
#2873 11 months ago

I have a pretty new to me Firepower, and my first experience owning a system 6 (well actually anything outside Gottlieb), and have been having a few random resets, displays go blank everything dies except the audio which plays on. anyway reading through the threads the the bulletproofing guide sounds like a connector thing to me, so into the backbox I go. It appears a lot of the pin and socket replacement has already been done, but can someone fill me in on what this is? (sorry for blurriness)

thanks

IMG_20190505_160132926 (resized).jpg
#2874 10 months ago
Quoted from BorgDog:

bulletproofing guide

I had weird stuff like that when I first got mine. Replacing the inter-board connector (40-pin) solved LOTs of problem. I think that's the first thing Vid recommends in the bulletproofing guide. I'd start with that.

Good luck!

#2875 10 months ago

I'm far enough on my project, that I know I'll be ready to debut it at NWPAS later this month.

Firepower Duel: battle head-to-head on two linked Firepower pinball machines!

For more info, check in here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/firepower-duel-destroy-or-be-destroyed

#2876 10 months ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

I'm far enough on my project, that I know I'll be ready to debut it at NWPAS later this month.
Firepower Duel: battle head-to-head on two linked Firepower pinball machines!
For more info, check in here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/firepower-duel-destroy-or-be-destroyed

Sounds amazing.

1 week later
#2877 10 months ago

Can someone confirm that there was a service bulletin for Firepower II (or all system 7 games) instructing operators to remove the top two screws from the driver board? My recollection from a TNT Amusements video was that this stopped the back of it from shorting out on the metal of the back box. Thanks.

#2878 10 months ago
Quoted from DMC:

Can someone confirm that there was a service bulletin for Firepower II (or all system 7 games) instructing operators to remove the top two screws from the driver board? My recollection from a TNT Amusements video was that this stopped the back of it from shorting out on the metal of the back box. Thanks.

I don't know about a service bulletin. But I removed mine due to a shorting issue on a pop bumper.

#2879 10 months ago

Hi all, am new to the club with a FP2. Can someone tell me if it’s possible to set this up for free play?

#2880 10 months ago
Quoted from hodgesm0:

Hi all, am new to the club with a FP2. Can someone tell me if it’s possible to set this up for free play?

Absolutely...will go check the manual...okay setting 18 (maximum credits) set it to 0 (zero) for free play.

Go to www.ipdb.com and look up Firepower II and download the manual. The procedure is on page 12.

#2881 10 months ago
Quoted from swillie:

Absolutely...will go check the manual...okay setting 18 (maximum credits) set it to 0 (zero) for free play.
Go to www.ipdb.com and look up Firepower II and download the manual. The procedure is on page 12.

Thanks swillie

#2882 10 months ago

Does anyone know where I can find a replacement 40 pin connector for a Williams system 7 sound board? Picture included for reference.

9A4382B8-F808-4D1C-802B-FB93A4B0308D (resized).jpeg
#2883 10 months ago
Quoted from hodgesm0:

Does anyone know where I can find a replacement 40 pin connector for a Williams system 7 sound board? Picture included for reference.[quoted image]

You can use the regular dual row .1" header pins, no reason you need the plastic housing.

https://www.allelectronics.com/item/dhs-40/2-x-40-pins-snappable-headers/1.html

#2884 10 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You can use the regular dual row .1" header pins, no reason you need the plastic housing.
https://www.allelectronics.com/item/dhs-40/2-x-40-pins-snappable-headers/1.html

Thanks, ordered

#2885 10 months ago

Hello all - i have a couple quick questions about what i believe to be strange behavior with my FP. I have sorted out most of the issues i knew about. Though i did not do the work myself, there are stickers on the boards with an Oct 2018 date. Power supply was recapped, 40 pin interconnect replaced and coin cell battey installed. MPU is clean and no evidence there was any alkaline on it anywhere.

So issue 1 is related to the top rollovers. When i activate the “R” rollover it lights up both the “I” and the “R” and scored double (2000 instead of 1000). These are both in the same column so i’m thinking its an issue with the switch matrix. Though no other switches in theat column behave strangely. When i go into switch test, these switches show up correctly and only 1 switch number is shown. So is this just a dip switch setting that spots the I for you? I can’t see any such setting in the manual for this. I owned a forepower in the past and it did not behave like this.

Second issue is the left star rollover. Its not activating. Yet it was showing as closed in switch test. I clipped the diode (?) And it stoped showing closed. I’m not sure exactly which component it is but it looks like a diode. See pic. I can’t see anywhere in the schematics which shows this part.

Last question and thanks for all who have made it this far . Does my knocker assembly look complete? It looks tk me like there should be something on the bottom of the plunger but maybe this is a system 6 knocker. Someone clipped the wire which made me notice it..

C8B87B15-F5C6-43FE-8232-C049D3EA90B8 (resized).jpeg29AE12EC-263F-4963-8F9F-5129B9A9B48B (resized).jpeg
#2886 10 months ago
Quoted from Completist:

Hello all - i have a couple quick questions about what i believe to be strange behavior with my FP. I have sorted out most of the issues i knew about. Though i did not do the work myself, there are stickers on the boards with an Oct 2018 date. Power supply was recapped, 40 pin interconnect replaced and coin cell battey installed. MPU is clean and no evidence there was any alkaline on it anywhere.
So issue 1 is related to the top rollovers. When i activate the “R” rollover it lights up both the “I” and the “R” and scored double (2000 instead of 1000). These are both in the same column so i’m thinking its an issue with the switch matrix. Though no other switches in theat column behave strangely. When i go into switch test, these switches show up correctly and only 1 switch number is shown. So is this just a dip switch setting that spots the I for you? I can’t see any such setting in the manual for this. I owned a forepower in the past and it did not behave like this.
Second issue is the left star rollover. Its not activating. Yet it was showing as closed in switch test. I clipped the diode (?) And it stoped showing closed. I’m not sure exactly which component it is but it looks like a diode. See pic. I can’t see anywhere in the schematics which shows this part.
Last question and thanks for all who have made it this far . Does my knocker assembly look complete? It looks tk me like there should be something on the bottom of the plunger but maybe this is a system 6 knocker. Someone clipped the wire which made me notice it..[quoted image][quoted image]

I would check the diode on the R rollover or just replace it. Might be shorted.

For the rollover, did you confirm the contacts were not closed at rest? It may just need to be re-gapped. Might also have a bad diode.

That knocker looks mostly right to me. Only thing missing is a rubber bumper pad in the bracket just below the plunger. Omitting that will not really impact the operation of the knocker.

#2887 10 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

I would check the diode on the R rollover or just replace it. Might be shorted.
For the rollover, did you confirm the contacts were not closed at rest? It may just need to be re-gapped. Might also have a bad diode.
That knocker looks mostly right to me. Only thing missing is a rubber bumper pad in the bracket just below the plunger. Omitting that will not really impact the operation of the knocker.

Ok i’ll go ahead and replace the R diode and see if that fixes it. As for the star rollover, yes i made sure the switch was open and made sure the terminals were not touching. With diode attached it shows as closed but when i clipped it it doesnt. Bu5 if i touch the clipped end it registers as closed in switch test. I will replace that too. It just didnt look like a standard diode. More like a zenor diode in color but i assume a 1N4007 will work fine.

#2888 10 months ago
Quoted from Completist:

Second issue is the left star rollover.

You also have the infamous reversed leaf switch issue on that star rollover switch. Many switches were made incorrectly at the factory with the riveted side on the inside of the switch. That gold plated round nub should be on the inside of the switch. Take it apart and reverse it and check ALL of your switches for same.

#2889 10 months ago
Quoted from BriPin:

You also have the infamous reversed leaf switch issue on that star rollover switch. Many switches were made incorrectly at the factory with the riveted side on the inside of the switch. That gold plated round nub should be on the inside of the switch. Take it apart and reverse it and check ALL of your switches for same.

Yes i was noticing that! I got it to work with a good cleaning but it looked strange to me. Will correct that while im under there.

#2890 10 months ago
Quoted from Completist:

Ok i’ll go ahead and replace the R diode and see if that fixes it. As for the star rollover, yes i made sure the switch was open and made sure the terminals were not touching. With diode attached it shows as closed but when i clipped it it doesnt. Bu5 if i touch the clipped end it registers as closed in switch test. I will replace that too. It just didnt look like a standard diode. More like a zenor diode in color but i assume a 1N4007 will work fine.

Back in the day, it was common for regular diodes to be made with glass housings. You are right in that today, zener diodes and small signal diodes are just about the only glass diodes we see.

In the switch matrix, just about any diode will work. If you need to buy some, might as well get 1N4007 as they are strong and work great on coils too.

#2891 10 months ago
Quoted from Completist:

Yes i was noticing that! I got it to work with a good cleaning but it looked strange to me. Will correct that while im under there.

Ok so i reversed the switch blade and thats when i determined the real issue. The firm tension blade was adjusted to hold the long leaf blade up against the star rollover. But since its contacting the Short leaf blade at the base this was shorting the switched closed. I adjusted it correctly and now it works as it should.

Knocker coil tests fine so i wired it up. Was expecting it to lock on but nope. Knocker works fine, guess whoever clipped it hated knockers lol.

So i think i’ve for everything tuned up now. There is some really ugly gobby solder on some coils so i gotta clean those up. The only thing i havent figured out is why the R roller spots the I as well. I replaced the diodes on both those switches and cant see anything that would be causing this. But its bothering me lol.

#2892 10 months ago
Quoted from Completist:

Ok so i reversed the switch blade and thats when i determined the real issue. The firm tension blade was adjusted to hold the long leaf blade up against the star rollover. But since its contacting the Short leaf blade at the base this was shorting the switched closed. I adjusted it correctly and now it works as it should.
Knocker coil tests fine so i wired it up. Was expecting it to lock on but nope. Knocker works fine, guess whoever clipped it hated knockers lol.
So i think i’ve for everything tuned up now. There is some really ugly gobby solder on some coils so i gotta clean those up. The only thing i havent figured out is why the R roller spots the I as well. I replaced the diodes on both those switches and cant see anything that would be causing this. But its bothering me lol.

Congrats on the fixes!

The R-I problem is likely a bad diode or short somewhere else in the switch matrix. With no balls in the trough, use switch test to see if any switches report closed (none should).

Then see if I spots with R wihout balls in the trough.

Check the tilt bob and ball roll tilt wiring and make sure it is good and proper diodes are installed. Those are in the same row as R and I.

#2893 10 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Congrats on the fixes!
The R-I problem is likely a bad diode or short somewhere else in the switch matrix. With no balls in the trough, use switch test to see if any switches report closed (none should).
Then see if I spots with R wihout balls in the trough.
Check the tilt bob and ball roll tilt wiring and make sure it is good and proper diodes are installed. Those are in the same row as R and I.

Quoted from Schwaggs:

Congrats on the fixes!
The R-I problem is likely a bad diode or short somewhere else in the switch matrix. With no balls in the trough, use switch test to see if any switches report closed (none should).
Then see if I spots with R wihout balls in the trough.
Check the tilt bob and ball roll tilt wiring and make sure it is good and proper diodes are installed. Those are in the same row as R and I.

Ok great i will check on those. I did confirm that with no balls in trough there are no switches closed in switch test. And when i close the R the correct switch number shows closed. And only one switch. I was expecting it to show both but not the case. I’ll test every diode in that row and see if i can find the culprit. So far the R and I ones tested good out of circuit.

Thanks for the tips!

#2894 10 months ago

Ok so far every diode i check (with 1 leg removed from circuit) has tested good.

But i got thinking. With all balls out of the game, when i press R in switch test the only switch that shows up is R. But often switch matrix issues only present themselves when a switch is closed in the precence of other closed switches. Which in the case of this game are the right and centre ball trough switches.

So with this theory in mind, i load 2 balls into the trough leaving one out (the theoretical ball in play). Then from switch test i can see those two switches, and now when i press R i see the R number and holy shit it also shows the I switch! We are that much closer to solving this now

From my understanding of the switch matrix, i can draw a rectangle around the closed switches and the phantom closed switch. The bad diode has to be in one of those 4 corners right? Nope. Can’t find the SOB. I’ll confessed i replaced the diodes on the R and I switches but i forgot to test those first. These are two of the 4 suspect diodes so now i’ll have to pull those and test again but im not optimistic its one of those.

#2895 10 months ago
Quoted from Completist:

Ok so far every diode i check (with 1 leg removed from circuit) has tested good.
But i got thinking. With all balls out of the game, when i press R in switch test the only switch that shows up is R. But often switch matrix issues only present themselves when a switch is closed in the precence of other closed switches. Which in the case of this game are the right and centre ball trough switches.
So with this theory in mind, i load 2 balls into the trough leaving one out (the theoretical ball in play). Then from switch test i can see those two switches, and now when i press R i see the R number and holy shit it also shows the I switch! We are that much closer to solving this now
From my understanding of the switch matrix, i can draw a rectangle around the closed switches and the phantom closed switch. The bad diode has to be in one of those 4 corners right? Nope. Can’t find the SOB. I’ll confessed i replaced the diodes on the R and I switches but i forgot to test those first. These are two of the 4 suspect diodes so now i’ll have to pull those and test again but im not optimistic its one of those.

Great progress and the "switch matrix square" is what I was thinking could be a lead to the problem.

Did you check the trough switch diodes?

#2896 10 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Great progress and the "switch matrix square" is what I was thinking could be a lead to the problem.
Did you check the trough switch diodes?

Yes i have replaced the I and R switch diodes previously. And then after connecting the switch matrix box i clipped a leg and checked the centre and right ball ramp (trough) switches. Didnt find any issues there. Here’s my switch matrix marked up. Blue is the normally closed switches plus the one i trigger, yellow is the phantom switch.

11539754-7E42-4402-977D-0DE9AB453E93 (resized).jpeg
#2897 10 months ago

Hi guys, does anyone have or know where I can find the plastic for FP2 highlighted in the photo below?

Thanks!

FA9CF794-7809-4019-A0CF-28DD24848A9C (resized).jpeg
#2898 10 months ago
Quoted from Completist:

Yes i have replaced the I and R switch diodes previously. And then after connecting the switch matrix box i clipped a leg and checked the centre and right ball ramp (trough) switches. Didnt find any issues there. Here’s my switch matrix marked up. Blue is the normally closed switches plus the one i trigger, yellow is the phantom switch.[quoted image]

Usually the problem switch is diagonal from the phantom. Carefully inspect that trough switch and look for backwards diode, diodes or wires on the wrong terminals, etc.

#2899 10 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Usually the problem switch is diagonal from the phantom. Carefully inspect that trough switch and look for backwards diode, diodes or wires on the wrong terminals, etc.

What has two thumbs and is excited he found a column wire attached to the wrong terminal of a middle trough switch?

ME!!!!

So i was in the right place but looking for the wrong problem. Diode tested fine but the column wire was attached to the banded side of the diode. Moved it to the non banded side and the switch matrix issue is gone. And you were correct - this was the switch diagonal to the phantom one. So happy. Game is now 100%.

Thanks Schwaggs!!

#2900 10 months ago
Quoted from Completist:

What has two thumbs and is excited he found a column wire attached to the wrong terminal of a middle trough switch?
ME!!!!
So i was in the right place but looking for the wrong problem. Diode tested fine but the column wire was attached to the banded side of the diode. Moved it to the non banded side and the switch matrix issue is gone. And you were correct - this was the switch diagonal to the phantom one. So happy. Game is now 100%.
Thanks Schwaggs!!

Awesome! Congrats on the fix and thanks for letting us know what you found that fixed it!

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