(Topic ID: 45438)

The Evangelisation of Jersey Jack and Wizard of Oz

By Fatsquatch

11 years ago


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  • 172 posts
  • 55 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 years ago by spfxted
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 172 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
#101 11 years ago
Quoted from Hitch9:

Let it go gambit. It's not worth it. Remember the three things not to argue about..religion or in this case translations of scripture is one of the three.

Agreed. I just found it interesting that the guy that has been giving lectures for 20 years over Bible translations couldn't identify the translation.

#102 11 years ago
Quoted from Fatsquatch:

Full disclosure: I have not seen Wizard of Oz in person, much less played it. I have never met Jersey Jack nor had any kind of business dealings with him. I have not purchased Wizard of Oz or put any money down on The Hobbit. I have no desire to see Jersey Jack Pinball fail with their machines and am quite agreeable with any success they have.
Now, on to the meat and potatoes...
For the longest time now on forum discussions pertaining to Jersey Jack and the Wizard of Oz, I keep seeing proclamations like these:
-- Jack is a true visionary and is moving pinball into the future
-- WOZ will usher in the next generation of pinball
-- Jersey Jack Pinball is moving the industry forward while everyone else isn't
-- WOZ will be the greatest pinball machine of all-time
-- WOZ will single-handedly save pinball and bring people back to the game
Not to be incendiary or anything, but please explain to me how these things are true? Seems all I ever read are these same types of statements, but not much elaboration about why they're being made.
As I've pointed out, I've never played WOZ, but have seen a bunch of pictures and videos like everyone else. All I've come away with, is that it's a fairly attractive machine, with an LCD display in the backbox, lots of color-changing LEDS, and apparently an almost mythical cabinet build quality wrapped around gameplay that doesn't seem too far removed from just about any other pin on the market. (After all, we are just fighting gravity with some flippers and batting a ball bearing up a playfield -- hitting targets, ramps and whatnot.)
In short, when it comes to WOZ, I'm just not seeing the mammoth evolution in pinball that so many others are. What am I missing?

I don't think anyone stated that WOZ would be an evolution of pinball, not even JJP.
They are just trying to make a game. Let them make the game. Then everyone can criticize it but until it is finished there is no point.

#103 11 years ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

eloquently said...

It was actually. He pointed out nothing but facts, as far as I read it. When I thumbs upped his post I noticed I wasn't the only one. Lol.

#104 11 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

There is a demographic of women that can't be denied to exist. But I would venture to say that at the TPF a couple weeks back, the ratio of men to women was easily 4 to 1 in the favor of men. And virtually all of the women there were with their husbands/boyfriends. I do remember seeing one group of women, maybe 3 or 4, that were walking around by themselves.

Man, I wish we could've met up at TPF, lol. Silly. I've met people from all over, but the guys that live like 10 miles from me? They're like the freakin' Ninja Elite, LOL.

My wife was pretty much there of her own volition, I think she was more excited about TPF than I was, especially after load-in. I think next year, instead of taking three games, I'm going to take ONE, volunteer to help in the tourney area a bit, and just try to enjoy myself that way...this year....eh. I didn't play hardly anything I wanted to, got obsessed with Marc's dang awesome Safecracker.

More on topic though, I was impressed by the build quality of WOZ, but not the game itself. They need to just shut up or put up, but Jack just can't keep his yap closed. Playing the game with incomplete rules, broken code and broken multiballs was just a big fat yawnfest. Having to light locks by shooting *rollover* star targets? Really? BLARGH.

#105 11 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Those aren't common perceptions. Those are fanboy perceptions. If you can't tell the difference, stick to lurking.

Considering you've never played the game, it should be impossible for anyone to convince you it's the best game ever. Pointless thread.

IDK if you're being over the top in some sarcastic way that I'm not getting. If you're not I find it very arrogant and disrespectful to bully someone to go back in "lurk" mode. That's the whole point of his thread was to discuss the whole hype/hate/love without that kind of attitude. I've seen you around and like you from what I can remember. I think you even contributed to a couple of my thread topics. Just being honest if you're wondering why the thumbs down.

Staying on-topic.....

I think JJP had a great plan and is a great salesman. He's been around the op game for a long time and is definitely qualified which is why he was able to recruit such a well respected team and that's why people are/were so excited. Competition. It breeds better business models, lower prices and higher quality. That's my opinion. The ones who say one or the other is their only choice have skin in the game or pride to retain. Enjoy the ride. That is all.

#106 11 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

It was actually. He pointed out nothing but facts, as far as I read it. When I thumbs upped his post I noticed I wasn't the only one. Lol.

It got me my first ban vote, too! Thanks Abso!

#107 11 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Man, I wish we could've met up at TPF, lol. Silly. I've met people from all over, but the guys that live like 10 miles from me? They're like the freakin' Ninja Elite, LOL.
My wife was pretty much there of her own volition, I think she was more excited about TPF than I was, especially after load-in. I think next year, instead of taking three games, I'm going to take ONE, volunteer to help in the tourney area a bit, and just try to enjoy myself that way...this year....eh. I didn't play hardly anything I wanted to, got obsessed with Marc's dang awesome Safecracker.
More on topic though, I was impressed by the build quality of WOZ, but not the game itself. They need to just shut up or put up, but Jack just can't keep his yap closed. Playing the game with incomplete rules, broken code and broken multiballs was just a big fat yawnfest. Having to light locks by shooting *rollover* star targets? Really? BLARGH.

I walked up and down your line of games several time, trying to figure out which one was you. I was around Marc's area a lot of the time Saturday. We probably saw each other all weekend and didn't know it.I bounced from Marc to Kim to Craig and around the gameroom.

I used my tournament card to get two games on WOZ to myself. It was beautiful and seemed solid. My tastes have evolved toward faster games, and it reminded me of TZ and TSPP, so I am not the best judge of gameplay for this kind of game right now. There was a lot to do, and I didn't have nearly enough time to understand everything I was doing in those two games. I was surprised at how nice the standard version looked, and would be just fine owning that one vs. the LE. I suspect that one will make its way through my gameroom at some point, if nothing else just to look at.

#108 11 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

*Warning Magic Mike, Warning. Gambit is an attorney and trained, very well, to argue. If you are in fact a Ph.D in Theology he is going to chop you up on the subject anyway. Best to just disengage.*
That was a public service announcement.

Gambit is a blow hard that likes the smell of his own farts. The fact that he is a lawyer is news to me but hardly a surprise. In fact, if he's a bible thumping lawyer that better explains his increasingly self righteous behavior. I always appreciate his insights into pinball...wish he'd stop there.

#109 11 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Gee, I got back from dinner, drinks and cigars and hoped this would all be worked out by now...

You went to Mt. Fuji and came back to Mt. Olive!

#110 11 years ago
Quoted from Fatsquatch:

For the longest time now on forum discussions pertaining to Jersey Jack and the Wizard of Oz, I keep seeing proclamations like these:

-- Jack is a true visionary and is moving pinball into the future
-- WOZ will usher in the next generation of pinball
-- Jersey Jack Pinball is moving the industry forward while everyone else isn't
-- WOZ will be the greatest pinball machine of all-time
-- WOZ will single-handedly save pinball and bring people back to the game

Although I have of course seen those statements in some form or other on Pinside and other sites, I honestly believe the vast majority of us that are in on WOZ are just hoping for a great pinball machine to play. Its just that the vocal minority that either overly praise JJP or bash JJP get all the attention. Remember, JJP sold 1000 WOZLE's, (probably a couple hundred to Pinsiders?). Most of us have never said anything remotely like the points above--we are simply patiently waiting for our games...!

Do I hope that WOZ will be the greatest pinball machine of all-time? Of course I do. But then again, I hoped the same when I pre-ordered AC/DC BIBLE. Hopefully I will luck out a second time!

#111 11 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Still confused by my Avatar now with all of your silly assumptions?

Not confused as I don't care why you use it your avatar , but I am curious . I know I've seen this before but just can't figure out where , would you please tell me what you got this image from ? Looks like something off a Slayer album.

#112 11 years ago
Quoted from Fatsquatch:

Oh, okay. I guess I've been dreaming that stuff up for the last couple of years or so.
Thanks for the clarification.

Context is your friend. Often times on these forums when you hear someone talk about how JJP or WOZ is going to be "the greatest thing since sliced bread" they themselves are over-dramatizing the situation or complaining about how they disagree with this "strawman" that is going around. The vast majority of enthusiasts are not making these kinds of statements. If you disagree, feel free to give us an example of people sincerely making the claims you speak of. And in the rare case where you can find someone who honestly believes "WOZ will single-handedly save pinball", why not pose your question directly to them? Because the rest of the community, from what I've seen, isn't so bold as to make such statements.

This subject really has been beaten to death. Don't let a few/atypical people represent the whole community. Only time will tell whether or not there will be significant changes in the industry. But one thing we know right now is JJP has entered the market and for their fist game, appears to have sold more games than Stern has been doing of any single title as of late. It doesn't mean WOZ or JJP is going to "save pinball", it just indicates that there are people out there willing to pay for an alternative to Stern.

Now if I were to answer your question in a general sense, such as "can any company 'save pinball'?" I would say, it remains to be seen. What companies like JJP, JP, Metapmorphic, etc., are doing is carving out a piece of the pinball market and creating a "Boutique Pinball Market" of extremely expensive, high-end games. They've found a niche where they can make money, but I don't see them creating a new market or growing the market substantially. JJP has been able to get more press lately and he's getting some attention and extra sales, but I feel as long as pinball machines cost $5000+ they will always be hyper-luxury items that average people cannot afford, and are too expensive to be put on location by operators. The traditional pinball model where games are more widely accessible to the common man, doesn't appear to be re-emerging. When someone can make a machine that is affordable for more people, and viable economically for operators, then I can see the market growing.

#113 11 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Gambit is a blow hard that likes the smell of his own farts. The fact that he is a lawyer is news to me but hardly a surprise. In fact, if he's a bible thumping lawyer that better explains his increasingly self righteous behavior.

Well at least we can always count on TheFamilyArcade to come in and smooth things over.

#114 11 years ago

As someone who grew up going to some pretty substantial coin-op auctions, I've been around pins for basically my entire life. I've never seen a game that looks quite as striking as Wizard of Oz does in person. The playfield, lighting, all of that is just a work of art. I don't think I've seen any other game, whether it's B/W or Stern, that is as aesthetically pleasing (at least as far as the playfield goes) as this is.

I'm not sure why people love the LCD so much; honestly, it looked a bit washed-out (like a cheap LCD that can't produce a good true black), and wasn't really used in any way that made any revolutionary changes to gameplay. It's an evolution we should've seen in these games over a decade ago. I guess that is kinda exciting, though.

TL;DR: Probably the prettiest pinball ever. Bringing some long-overdue change. More enjoyable than 90% of Sterns.

#115 11 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

You went to Mt. Fuji and came back to Mt. Olive!

Truth!

#116 11 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

That really looks photoshopped

I wish! They were all in my film. Aerosmith did part of the soundtrack. Hell, Brad was IN the film...we killed him off!

#117 11 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

Because of that, the first three things that you mentioned have already happened. Stern, I believe, in a pre-emptive strike decided that they would do some more costly "Limited Edition" runs to target the home market and eat away at the foothold that Jack would have had. I think the idea was that if there are a couple handfuls of LE games, it will destroy that market. Instead, look at how LE games sell.

I believe there might have been a little more to this.

This was about the same time the new investors came into Stern.

While they brought in money, got Steve back, and other good moves.

My understanding is they had no prior experience in pinball manufacturing or coin op for that matter.

So they may have brought new ideas with them too. Some work some don't.

But the industry has been stale for too long, and new blood was definitely needed.

LTG : )

#118 11 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Agreed. I just found it interesting that the guy that has been giving lectures for 20 years over Bible translations couldn't identify the translation.

I know *my* translation (KJV).

You couldn't even state your source.

#119 11 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Gambit is a blow hard that likes the smell of his own farts. The fact that he is a lawyer is news to me but hardly a surprise. In fact, if he's a bible thumping lawyer that better explains his increasingly self righteous behavior. I always appreciate his insights into pinball...wish he'd stop there.

LMAO! Thanks for the warning on some of these guys!

#120 11 years ago

Don't you two make a cute couple?

#121 11 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

I know *my* translation (KJV).
You couldn't even state your source.

Lolwut?

#122 11 years ago
Quoted from absocountry2:

Do any machines have factory headphone jacks?

Data East

AC/DC

Quoted from absocountry2:

Any display other than outdated DMD

Marsaplay

Quoted from absocountry2:

Any display other than one color?

Marsaplay

Quoted from absocountry2:

Internet capable?

Pin2k had internet bookkeeping

=

What's old is new again.

#123 11 years ago
Quoted from trilogybeer:

curious . I know I've seen this before but just can't figure out where , would you please tell me where you got this image?

Jerusalem. Surprised? I will go back in 2015.

You should see the pictures of the depictions of Christ I took when I visited Cappadocia.

These images were painted by Christians that hid underground.

Bible history has been *deliberately* erased!

The only way to find out the truth is to travel to the sources like I have done.

#124 11 years ago

Sooooo, how do you think the Giants will do this year?

#125 11 years ago

Oh boy. Here we go. Gnostics. There goes the neighborhood.

#126 11 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Well at least we can always count on TheFamilyArcade to come in and smooth things over.

Gambit and I have that in common. We poke sticks for fun at people that should be able to take it. You gotta be able to take as good as you give. Of course the bible thumpers have some problems there...which when you think about it, is about as ironic as irony gets.

#127 11 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Don't you two make a cute couple?

So do your nose and butt.

#128 11 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Gambit and I have that in common. We poke sticks for fun at people that should be able to take it. You gotta be able to take as good as you give. Of course the bible thumpers have some problems there...which when you think about it, is about as ironic as irony gets.

Have I ever come off as a Bible thumper? Definitely not. I do know a lot about the translation process, and how and why what got in there did. I also know when someone is made of straw and can be blown over in a stiff wind. I don't care for the smell of any farts, however. Not even my own.

#129 11 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

So do your nose and butt.

5.5 from the French judge.

#130 11 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

So do your nose and butt.

So frickin juvenile, but funny nevertheless

-1
#131 11 years ago

IDK, you're quoting scripture on a pinball site and arguing with someone on translations etc. wouldn't surprise me...but no, you don't come off as a bible thumper generally. Jules is best known for quoting a (fake?) Bible passage...so you've gotta sense of humor about it at least. Id know more about theBible myself but I'm more into non-fiction myself. I do think translations arguments are kind of moronic considering that 1500 years ago the Bible was engineered to the tastes of the those in charge and everything else that had been considered scripture until then abandoned, destroyed or discredited.

Id rather argue about whose deserving of a WWF title since its all made up to begin with. At least with the WWF no one but the wrestlers get injured...unless you count the buffoons that pay to watch that garbage.

#132 11 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Jerusalem. Surprised? I will go back in 2015.
You should see the pictures of the depictions of Christ I took when I visited Cappadocia.
These images were painted by Christians that hid underground.
Bible history has been *deliberately* erased!
The only way to find out the truth is to travel to the sources like I have done.

When I Googled Cappadocia, two locations popped up. One in Province of L'Aquila, Italy, and another one in Turkey. Which location are you talking about and who took the pictures of these Christians hiding underground? BTW, where are these pictures and who are the Christians hiding from?

#133 11 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

IDK, you're quoting scripture on a pinball site and arguing with someone on translations etc. wouldn't surprise me...but no, you don't come off as a bible thumper generally. Jules is best known for quoting a (fake?) Bible passage...so you've gotta sense of humor about it at least. Id know more about theBible myself but I'm more into non-fiction myself. I do think translations arguments are kind of moronic considering that 1,500 years ago the Bible was engineered to the tastes of the those in charge and everything else that had been considered scripture until then abandoned, destroyed or discredited.
Id rather argue about whose deserving of a WWF title since its all made up to begin with. At least with the WWF no one but the wrestlers get injured...unless you doubt the buffoons that pay to watch that garbage.

I fully agree that this isn't the place for theological discussion. Magic Mike threw the first silly jab about it, and was wrong from word one about the very translation he apparently found in a bunker under a Turkish city, surprisingly written in the King's English of the late Middle Ages. My only committment was to show what was there, not weigh in on its validity.

#134 11 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Have I ever come off as a Bible thumper? Definitely not. I do know a lot about the translation process, and how and why what got in there did.

I learned some new discoveries while I was at Cambridge, England last July.

I've been to Jerusalem 6 times in my life. Will go back in 2015.

I've been to the Church of Paul (one of the 12 apostles) in Tarsus.

I have a picture of myself sitting in the Royal Chair inside the mountain of Antakya.

I've broke bread and spent the night on the dirt floor homes of Muslims in Afghanistan.

I almost died in 2008 while teaching in the Pacific from chicken pox.

List goes on. That doesn't even scratch the surface of the 20 of my 23 years doing this.

But you know it all and want to judge me based on something that has been erased from your Bible. Something that you know little about and have refused to discover otherwise.

How many passports have *you* gone through in your life that have helped you with the "translation process?"

My third is already halfway full.

-1
#135 11 years ago
Quoted from pins4fun:

When I Googled Cappadocia, two locations popped up. One in Province of L'Aquila, Italy, and another one in Turkey. Which location are you talking about and who took the pictures of these Christians hiding underground? BTW, where are these pictures and who are the Christians hiding from?

Oh Dear, the poor man had to Google this.

#136 11 years ago

Enough of the religion

No matter what side you're on you will always look like an idiot to someone

#137 11 years ago

I went to New Zealand a few years back, and thus am a Maori.

I once met Michael Jordan.

I have Flea's cellphone number in my phone.

I attended a lecture given by Alan Dershowitz once.

I have a picture of myself standing next to Tigger at Disney World.

I was attack by a German Shepherd when I was 5 and had to have surgery on my face and rabies shots.

I read a good third of Infinite Jest before giving up.

....what are these lists for, again?

-2
#138 11 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

I fully agree that this isn't the place for theological discussion. Magic Mike threw the first silly jab about it, and was wrong from word one about the very translation he apparently found in a bunker under a Turkish city, surprisingly written in the King's English of the late Middle Ages. My only committment was to show what was there, not weigh in on its validity.

How many Turkish stamps are in your passport?

I see that you like Samuel L. Jackson. How many African stamps are in your passport?

#139 11 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

I went to New Zealand a few years back, and thus am a Maori.
I once met Michael Jordan.
I have Flea's cellphone number in my phone.
I attended a lecture given by Alan Dershowitz once.
I have a picture of myself standing next to Tigger at Disney World.
I was attack by a German Shepherd when I was 5 and had to have surgery on my face and rabies shots.
I read a good third of Infinite Jest before giving up.
....what are these lists for, again?

You're not in court. You don't have to dodge questions.

#140 11 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

How many Turkish stamps are in your passport?
I see that you like Samuel L. Jackson. How many African stamps are in your passport?

What are you talking about? You make little to no sense. Are you maybe having a stroke?

Samuel L. Jackson was born in Washington D.C. I can PM you a map.

#141 11 years ago

I've been to two Alen Dershowitz lectures! Does that multiply my bonus?

#142 11 years ago

All that and you don't like the smell of farts? Not sure how you got Flea's # then. I call BS on that.

#143 11 years ago
Quoted from Stuartm:

I've been to two Alen Dershowitz lectures! Does that multiply my bonus?

But have you ever been to Duesenberg during Marti Gras? Or dug a hole in the sands of my mother's side yard? He's held the tiki that caused Greg Brady to wipe out on his surf board! Have you????

#144 11 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Oh Dear, the poor man had to Google this.

Excuse me Sir, I don't have a PhD in Theology, I Google things up a lot

#145 11 years ago
Quoted from Spyder777:

All that and you don't like the smell of farts? Not sure how you got Flea's # then. I call BS on that.

I don't know him. Just worked out a contract situation with a friend that was doing a big event for him. She knows him well, and says he is extremely normal and cool.

#146 11 years ago

Is duesenberg actually a place...not just a car or a guitar? And if not, how would this effect the festivities?

#147 11 years ago

Holy sh*t, someone please put this thread out of its misery!

#148 11 years ago
Quoted from Stuartm:

I've been to two Alen Dershowitz lectures! Does that multiply my bonus?

No, it holds your bonus.... which I find more satisfying unless I'm stuck on 1x.

#149 11 years ago
Quoted from FiveSixPyro:

No, it holds your bonus.... which I find more satisfying unless I'm stuck on 1x.

Thanks for the info. Is that in Claus Von Bulow mode?

#150 11 years ago

(1) Jack knows what he's doing. The hardware has universally been considered a cut above. There is absolutely no reason to think the software won't eventually be just as brilliant. Jack's talent pool are PROVEN pinball designers and programmers.

(2) Remember they're not just building a single design. They're building an entire company from the ground up. Distribution network, parts suppliers, assembly line design, inventories, circuit board designs, operating system creation. That's just off the top of my head. That's ALL before designing a single thing SPECIFICALLY for WOZ - not a ramp, not a bolt, not even a backglass sketch. And they're trying to build in ways no one has ever done before, like the LCD. (Cough, cough...or stereo sound), so they're inventing the wheel in a lot of ways.

Frankly, I'm amazed they are as far as they've come. Even to the point of securing a big time license for JJP #2, further illustrating that they're in it for the long haul. That they won't produce a shoddy pin #1 because they need to secure a good reputation because they already have sunk in money for the Hobbit.

(3) I didn't so much buy a deadline, but bought a chance to own a Very Special Pin, filled with things never done before. I am COMPLETELY okay with waiting longer for the sake of perfecting all the innovation WOZ represents. Would rather wait a little longer, heck a LOT longer, for a special pin done right but late, rather than have a mediocre sameoldsameold pin on time. I recognize that opinion isn't universal, but that was the mindset I went into with this purchase: something special, but inherently full of unknowns with production timeline as a result. So no surprises, no worries.

I want JJP to spend their resources on making the pin better, not faster.

(4) Ask yourself honestly: is the state of pinball HEALTHIER or LESS HEALTHY since JJP was formed? I think pretty clearly the answer is HEALTHIER, even if you don't own/intend to own a JJP.

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