(Topic ID: 45438)

The Evangelisation of Jersey Jack and Wizard of Oz


By Fatsquatch

6 years ago



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#1 6 years ago

Full disclosure: I have not seen Wizard of Oz in person, much less played it. I have never met Jersey Jack nor had any kind of business dealings with him. I have not purchased Wizard of Oz or put any money down on The Hobbit. I have no desire to see Jersey Jack Pinball fail with their machines and am quite agreeable with any success they have.

Now, on to the meat and potatoes...

For the longest time now on forum discussions pertaining to Jersey Jack and the Wizard of Oz, I keep seeing proclamations like these:

-- Jack is a true visionary and is moving pinball into the future
-- WOZ will usher in the next generation of pinball
-- Jersey Jack Pinball is moving the industry forward while everyone else isn't
-- WOZ will be the greatest pinball machine of all-time
-- WOZ will single-handedly save pinball and bring people back to the game

Not to be incendiary or anything, but please explain to me how these things are true? Seems all I ever read are these same types of statements, but not much elaboration about why they're being made.

As I've pointed out, I've never played WOZ, but have seen a bunch of pictures and videos like everyone else. All I've come away with, is that it's a fairly attractive machine, with an LCD display in the backbox, lots of color-changing LEDS, and apparently an almost mythical cabinet build quality wrapped around gameplay that doesn't seem too far removed from just about any other pin on the market. (After all, we are just fighting gravity with some flippers and batting a ball bearing up a playfield -- hitting targets, ramps and whatnot.)

In short, when it comes to WOZ, I'm just not seeing the mammoth evolution in pinball that so many others are. What am I missing?

#2 6 years ago

In short: he isn't a Stern. That's about it.

#3 6 years ago

Enh... I dunno about all that.

I will say this: it's making money. For JJP, and probably for operators.

- JJP is operating on, from a business perspective, one hell of a business model: everyone pays for their machine in advance_, without having something tangible in front of them. Stern doesn't do that. JJP's model is a great business model from the business perspective - they get paid right away. It's a tough model for the consumer - they just put faith in that business. But I don't think you'll ever hear JJP complaining about their business model. The fact that people are buying into it is, IMHO, impressive. That causes me to raise my eyebrows: pinball people sure are willing to throw their money around on faith. Doesn't surprise me that Stern is following suit by raising prices and pre-selling certain models, like Hulk LE. There clearly is more money to be made here than previously thought, and made easier than previously thought.
- That said, after playing the one at Expo (great build quality, sad software) and the one at MGC (they fixed the software!), its a pretty good game.
- It's an entertainment product with a children's theme, which is brilliant. Stern's last few games are not aimed at younger children, which really limits their target market. In the film industry, children's films make lots of money, far more money than rated-R films do. Why? Because the number of tickets purchased is far greater. Parents will take their kids. The likelihood that parents would be willing to put quarters into a WOZ machine for their kids to play is much higher. After showing video of WOZ to my dad, he said "If that was around when you were younger, I would have totally let you play it."
- It ties into current pop culture with the movie Oz the Great and Powerful. Wizard of Oz is on people's minds. Hobbit? Same thing.
- Wizard of Oz fits in the last place for kid-friendly coin-op entertainment: the Family Fun Center. I can see WOZ making a mint at FFCs. POTC makes mint at FFCs near me for the same reason.
- The build quality is terrific, and I think is aimed at the PC-builder generation. Most of the assemblies use LEDs and are wired up with CAT5. The bundles are neater. After watching the video from the PAPa group showing the underside of the machine, I got warm fuzzies. They are trying to adopt some of the same approach the Pin2K team did: make the machine easier to maintain for operators.

Those are a few of the ideas I've had kicking around in my head.

#4 6 years ago

Hulk, Captain America, Thor, Iron Man......these aren't age appropriate for kids? Are we taking these kids to the talkies? Put a 6 year old boy in front of an Avengers and a WOZ, side by side, and tell me where he sticks that quarter.

#5 6 years ago

"The Evangelisation of Jersey Jack"

Did you read his latest diatribe? Instead of a paragraph explaining further delays he wrote a three page sermon. Evangelisation indeed. No one needs more sermons, they just need machines.

#6 6 years ago

Thou shalt not slander with opinions. JJP1:4

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from Shpwizard:

Stern's last few games are not aimed at younger children, which really limits their target market. In the film industry, children's films make lots of money, far more money than rated-R films do.

Stern's last R-rated games were Sopranos & Family Guy. I guess AC/DC wouldn't be considered family friendly. However, Avengers, X-Men, Transformers, Avatar, and Tron are appropriate for children who are fans of these franchises & toys. The great thing about having multiple titles in production at any given time is you have different themes for different demographics. You've got your "bar game" with AC/DC and your "all ages/all demographics" game with Avengers.

#8 6 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I guess AC/DC wouldn't be considered family friendly.

Not down here in my part of the world (the "Bible belt"), for sure.

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from Fatsquatch:

Not down here in my part of the world (the "Bible belt"), for sure.

Agreed that ACDC isn't appropriate for little kids. I can even see TRON ruffling a Baptist's feathers (Damnit! and hotties in seductive pose). But X-Men, TF, Avatar and Avengers? Who shot who in the what, now?

#10 6 years ago

I still haven't gotten to play this machine but after looking at it up close and personal and watching several games on it last night (the machine NEVER opened up for me to play it) I gotta say I was very impressed.

The game is just simply breath taking. I'm one of those guys that doesn't like the theme (AT ALL); however, after seeing that game in person and looking at the quality of it I may one day be able to get past the theme if the rules are as good as people are promising.

The game is a stunner and I think has a chance to over come the poor theme with people that feel it caters to family and small children rather than a more adult market . . . if it does that then JJP will have been a success and the Hobbit will really sell like bananas.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Did you read his latest diatribe? Instead of a paragraph explaining further delays he wrote a three page sermon.

I tried to get through it, but I got to the part where he met a customer in Italy who was "amazed" by the game, and I started picking up 'political candidate' vibes from it. (You know, like how campaigning politicians always go on about how they met some 90-year-old great-grandmother who is gravely sick and can't afford healthcare...yadda, yadda, yadda.) My natural bullshite meter starting going off and I had to bail.

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from Fatsquatch:

Full disclosure: I have not seen Wizard of Oz in person, much less played it.

That about sums up this thread.

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Agreed that ACDC isn't appropriate for little kids. I can even see TRON ruffling a Baptist's feathers (Damnit! and hotties in seductive pose). But X-Men, TF, Avatar and Avengers? Who shot who in the what, now?

Well, OK...they're very action oriented...so, there's violence there. Dorothy only murders witches accidentally lol.

10
#14 6 years ago

I have seen it and I have played it. It is worth the wait.

There is nothing else to say.

#15 6 years ago

At the Stern Launch Party in Chicago, Josh S. basically had to *ask* women to play Avengers. There's a demographic that's being missed. I also find it hard to believe that a six-year old girl would want to play Avengers unless prompted by someone else.

I really don't believe the "all ages/all demographics" argument for modern Sterns. Sorry. They are by and large built by geeks + nerds + bros for geeks + nerds + bros. And that's fine - I am a nerd, after all. But there's more to this world than that. There are a few more pocketbooks and markets to be tapped here, and given some pinball fun.

JJP is taking a chance with something outside the norm. It will be neat to see if it works out.

#16 6 years ago

Yeah, the line of 6 year old girls wishing I had a pinball machine that spoke to them in the gameroom is literally wrapped around the side of the building. Josh S. (whoever that might be) would have had to ask women to play a Sex & the City pinball machine, too. I am just not buying this line. I'm not about to start scrap-booking or playing Bunco just because some innovator starts making Sopranos themed stuff.

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Yeah, the line of 6 year old girls wishing I had a pinball machine that spoke to them in the gameroom is literally wrapped around the side of the building.

Exactly, I didn't go to pinball, it came to me!!!!

#18 6 years ago

Yeah, I don't know about how desirable the game of pinball is to the ladies. Over the years, the only females I've personally known to have any interest at all in the game was my Mother, a young lady I used to work with, Blondetall, and Blondetall's mom. No other woman or girl has seemed to care in the slightest. (Including my wife and 10-year-old daughter -- who absolutely LOVES The Wizard of Oz movie, but couldn't be bothered to check out pictures or videos of the pin when I was trying to show them to her.)

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Hulk, Captain America, Thor, Iron Man......these aren't age appropriate for kids? Are we taking these kids to the talkies? Put a 6 year old boy in front of an Avengers and a WOZ, side by side, and tell me where he sticks that quarter.

LOL! Totally agree. My middle son wanted nothing to do with Wizard of Oz and went straight to Avengers Pro when we visited Playdium in December. I played both and comment that Woz was fun and asked if he wanted to try it. His reply, "No thanks as he went to the Xmen Pro"

Cheers,
Duane

#20 6 years ago
Quoted from Fatsquatch:

Yeah, I don't know about how desirable the game of pinball is to the ladies. Over the years, the only females I've personally known to have any interest at all in the game was my Mother, a young lady I used to work with, Blondetall, and Blondetall's mom. No other woman or girl has seemed to care in the slightest. (Including my wife and 10-year-old daughter -- who absolutely LOVES The Wizard of Oz movie, but couldn't be bothered to check out pictures or videos of the pin when I was trying to show it to her.)

There is a demographic of women that can't be denied to exist. But I would venture to say that at the TPF a couple weeks back, the ratio of men to women was easily 4 to 1 in the favor of men. And virtually all of the women there were with their husbands/boyfriends. I do remember seeing one group of women, maybe 3 or 4, that were walking around by themselves. I recall them well because they were very noticeably the thing that was so unlike the others in the room. That said, maybe there is some genius is picking a theme that is a little more marketable to the few women that care. But I just can't believe that it is enough to move the needle. And I certainly don't give any credit to anyone for this being an innovation or breakthrough of some sort, in and of itself.

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Yeah, the line of 6 year old girls wishing I had a pinball machine that spoke to them in the gameroom is literally wrapped around the side of the building.

creepy dude. keep that kinda stuff to yourself.

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

creepy dude. keep that kinda stuff to yourself.

That's what we've been missing! The biggest moron on the boards to come in and be a big ol' moron. I love it when a story always ends the same. The circle is complete. You'll hopefully choke on the diet of low hanging fruit soon, and the grown men can have their conversations. But until then, go on and embarrass yourself some more...

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

That's what we've been missing! The biggest moron on the boards to come in and be a big ol' moron. I love it when a story always ends the same. The circle is complete. You'll hopefully choke on the diet of low hanging fruit soon, and the grown men can have their conversations. But until then, go on and embarrass yourself some more...

eloquently said...

#24 6 years ago

Seriously, I wasn't trying to be creepy talking about 6 year old girls. Dammit.

#25 6 years ago

Holy crap IBTL!

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from Shpwizard:

At the Stern Launch Party in Chicago, Josh S. basically had to *ask* women to play Avengers. There's a demographic that's being missed. I also find it hard to believe that a six-year old girl would want to play Avengers unless prompted by someone else.

All relative. At TPF I saw women and kids playing the heck out of Avengers. I also saw a lot playing WOZ to. What I can tell you is my wife played well over 20 games on AV and had zero interest in WOZ. Take that how you want but really think about the number of kids and women that have seen WOZ and then how many that have seen AV or any of the solo character movies. I bet its a lot closer then we would all think on how close those numbers are.

#27 6 years ago

I've played WOZ with terrible code and it is fascinating, brilliant and a work of art. Can't wait to play it with updated code.

#28 6 years ago

Let he who is without sin....

Nevermind, that's not even an actual scripture.

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from TwilightZone:

LOL! Totally agree. My middle son wanted nothing to do with Wizard of Oz and went straight to Avengers Pro when we visited Playdium in December. I played both and comment that Woz was fun and asked if he wanted to try it. His reply, "No thanks as he went to the Xmen Pro"
Cheers,
Duane

That's funny. I went to playdium in December with my wife, who never plays pinball, and I couldn't get her to stop playing Woz. Different gender though.

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from Fatsquatch:

Full disclosure: I have not seen Wizard of Oz in person, much less played it. I have never met Jersey Jack nor had any kind of business dealings with him. I have not purchased Wizard of Oz or put any money down on The Hobbit. I have no desire to see Jersey Jack Pinball fail with their machines and am quite agreeable with any success they have.
Now, on to the meat and potatoes...
ing?

So why do you care ?

If you have zero stake in JJP, then why worry?

#31 6 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

So why do you care ?
If you have zero stake in JJP, then why worry?

Never said that I was worried or anything of the sort.

I was just curious about some common perceptions of the game and was interested in a little friendly discourse.

Should have known that was incredibly unlikely to happen.

#32 6 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Let he who is without sin....
Nevermind, that's not even an actual scripture.

Well, actually it is. John 8:7. Just depends on which version you have on how it is exactally phrased. My version states it as - "So when they continued asking him, he lifted himself up, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Being as it's almost Easter I felt compelled to clear that up a bit

#33 6 years ago

JJP can't afford to release a mediocre game. Stern can afford to do that.

#34 6 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Well, actually it is. John 8:7. Just depends on which version you have on how it is exactally phrased.

Paraphrasing doesn't count either.

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from Fatsquatch:

Now, on to the meat and potatoes...
For the longest time now on forum discussions pertaining to Jersey Jack and the Wizard of Oz, I keep seeing proclamations like these:
-- Jack is a true visionary and is moving pinball into the future
-- WOZ will usher in the next generation of pinball
-- Jersey Jack Pinball is moving the industry forward while everyone else isn't
-- WOZ will be the greatest pinball machine of all-time
-- WOZ will single-handedly save pinball and bring people back to the game
Not to be incendiary or anything, but please explain to me how these things are true? Seems all I ever read are these same types of statements, but not much elaboration about why they're being made.

Why do you hate America?

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Paraphrasing doesn't count either.

1Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, 2but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. 3As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.

4“Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”

6They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.

9When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”

11“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

1Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, 2but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. 3As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.
4“Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”
6They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.
9When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”
11“No, Lord,” she said.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

That is pretty good. Parables are appropriate right now.

#39 6 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

That is pretty good. Parables are appropriate right now.

Mustard seed? Tares? Leaven?

#40 6 years ago
Quoted from Shpwizard:

Enh... I dunno about all that.
I will say this: it's making money. For JJP, and probably for operators.
- JJP is operating on, from a business perspective, one hell of a business model: everyone pays for their machine in advance_, without having something tangible in front of them. Stern doesn't do that. JJP's model is a great business model from the business perspective - they get paid right away. It's a tough model for the consumer - they just put faith in that business. But I don't think you'll ever hear JJP complaining about their business model. The fact that people are buying into it is, IMHO, impressive. That causes me to raise my eyebrows: pinball people sure are willing to throw their money around on faith. Doesn't surprise me that Stern is following suit by raising prices and pre-selling certain models, like Hulk LE. There clearly is more money to be made here than previously thought, and made easier than previously thought.
- That said, after playing the one at Expo (great build quality, sad software) and the one at MGC (they fixed the software!), its a pretty good game.
- It's an entertainment product with a children's theme, which is brilliant. Stern's last few games are not aimed at younger children, which really limits their target market. In the film industry, children's films make lots of money, far more money than rated-R films do. Why? Because the number of tickets purchased is far greater. Parents will take their kids. The likelihood that parents would be willing to put quarters into a WOZ machine for their kids to play is much higher. After showing video of WOZ to my dad, he said "If that was around when you were younger, I would have totally let you play it."
- It ties into current pop culture with the movie Oz the Great and Powerful. Wizard of Oz is on people's minds. Hobbit? Same thing.
- Wizard of Oz fits in the last place for kid-friendly coin-op entertainment: the Family Fun Center. I can see WOZ making a mint at FFCs. POTC makes mint at FFCs near me for the same reason.
- The build quality is terrific, and I think is aimed at the PC-builder generation. Most of the assemblies use LEDs and are wired up with CAT5. The bundles are neater. After watching the video from the PAPa group showing the underside of the machine, I got warm fuzzies. They are trying to adopt some of the same approach the Pin2K team did: make the machine easier to maintain for operators.
Those are a few of the ideas I've had kicking around in my head.

To say everyone pays for their game in advance isn't completely true. I'm pretty sure you can wait until distributors have them in stock and buy one. Of corse it might be a really high price or the non limited edition (which will most likely be rarer than the 1000 LE run). They offered people the ability to pre order and save some money, did not make people do it. Granted the cost of starting a new pinball company from scratch is prob very expensive so offering prepaid pre orders instead of borrowing a ton of capital and hoping people will buy their product is a smart business move. If no one was interesting in pre ordering they would know right away that maybe they shouldn't go forward. Luckily this was not the case.

I guess if they are guilty of anything it's the fact that they thought the game was gonna be finished 18 months ago and people have had their money tied up for a long time. Good part is people that decided the wait was too much got paid back in full or sold their place in line for a profit. Hopefully they will learn in the future and be closer to making release dates.

In the future If JJP does well they probably won't need game money up front any more but why would they stop offering it? Free loans are always a good thing.

#41 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

“All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!”

State your source. KJV never said this.

#42 6 years ago

Google says it's the "New Living Translation" published by Tyndale House Foundation.

#43 6 years ago
Quoted from Sunfox:

Google says it's the "New Living Translation" published by Tyndale House Foundation.

Didn't a bunch of Christians protest the New Living Translation as being *inaccurate* and "straight from hell?"

Well, that it explains that.

Nice try Gambit!

#44 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

You'll hopefully choke on the diet of low hanging fruit soon, and the grown men can have their conversations.

I literally almost spit up some beer reading this...thanks!!

#45 6 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Didn't a bunch of Christians protest the New Living Translation as being *inaccurate* and "straight from hell?"
Well, that it explains that.
Nice try Gambit!

No. A few nutcases make a stink about any translation other than KJV - which isn't even the most literal translation that exists. The Westboro kind of asshats. What's your malfunction?

KJV:

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

#46 6 years ago

Gee, I got back from dinner, drinks and cigars and hoped this would all be worked out by now...

#47 6 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

No. A few nutcases did. What's your malfunction?

Since you believed the "translation" as being genuine, I guess you need to question *your* malfunction.

-1
#48 6 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Since you believed the "translation" as being genuine, I guess you need to question *your* malfunction.

Can I question your *asterisk* use? Before you start in on this, do you know anything about the translation sources or history? Are you aware that the KJV is not the most literal Greek & Hebrew to English translation? Do you even know that it wasn't originally typed out in English? Which translations are on what part of the lieral vs. paraphrased continuum, and what are the real differences? Want to go down this road? I promise I know more about this than you do.

#49 6 years ago

I've been guilty of going off topic a lot around here and into politics on one or two occasions, but perhaps it would be better for all posters in this discussions to take it to PM.

Just a friendly suggestion while I go pop some popcorn.

#50 6 years ago
Quoted from PennSkier:

I have seen it and I have played it. It is worth the wait.
There is nothing else to say.

I appreciate your straightforward feedback. It's short, refreshing, reassuring, and to the point.

I hope that JJP will have the common sense to disregard all that is negative, focus on the task at hand, and start delivering finished games to real customers as soon as possible, but NOT by rushing headlong into some tragic last minute fiascos. At this point of heightened anxieties, patience is not only a virtue but a must for all, except for the detractors and saboteurs, of course.

Delivering prototype WOZ's to various pinball shows and distributor showrooms was a necessary part of the process to get the games tested and debugged, and to create market excitement. This was a lot of hard work for Jack an staff, not necessarily pleasure excursions. All of this was done intelligently and successfully, and for that, the WOZ customers will be getting better-built and better-coded WOZ's that will hold and exceed their market values without a doubt.

This necessary process, unfortunately, also created an opening for an opportunistic JJP defamation campaign by some certain flying monkeys who deftly capitalized on the obvious vulnerabilities of a few WOZ customers prone to poor judgment. Nevertheless, starting with WOZ, I fully expect JJP to be making many exciting pins and delivering them to its customers (like myself) for a long time to come.

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