What about deadpool? Nothing else shoots like that. Too much BS about "cookie cutter layouts" coming out from Stern. Stern still makes fun games with the best art, most variety of designers, and are by far the most reliable on route.

I think that your point is they make cookie cutter layouts? My point is that they are also legends that make the best games. That's the trade off for exceptionally smooth shooting games. All the best shots in pinball have already been figured out. An innovative or different layout is usually clunkier. In Stern's defense, they give us both kinds of games. And still get killed for it.

We disagree on Black Knight, epic game in my opinion, but that's not the point.

Both games came out last year! They also gave us a revamped street level game in Beatles. Very different layouts, not cookie cutter. Yet you were complaining in your original post about Stern only doing cookie cutter layouts and dismissing all of their games that were unique. I was simply pointing out that along with Ghostbusters, Iron Maiden, BM66, there was also Deadpool. You can hate any of these games, that's fine but I think that it's unfair to blanket statement buzzwords like "cookie cutter layout" and cherry pick the data to suit a half baked argument. Just say that you don't like Munsters or Black Knight because of the similiarites to shot placements that you have seen before, not that Stern ONLY makes the same old sh&t every time.

Not singling you out btw, nothing against you. Many people on pinside do this and it's frankly a little ridiculous is all.

That's a weak statement. I mean so you're saying that Stern was happy to let John Trudeau unique games, but they won't be happy to allow Keith to do so in the future, even after the success of his first game Iron Maiden? Or maybe somehow that because now he works at Stern, he is just going to phone the next design in? And not play with the layout of his next game? Let us not forget Gomez just delivered Deadpool and BM66. He still is the creative director, and his games are always tweaking shots. So the question remains, Why are you speculating that they will only make 'cookie cutter' layouts from here on out with no indications from the recent past that this is the case?

Just another note on BM66, it shoots nothing like BMDK. It shares the same toy and theme (sorta). Ridiculous to say that makes it the same.

The beatles point was to prove that Stern offers VARIETY in games. You get Borg and Ritchie fan layouts that shoot great, but you also get games like deadpool, ghostbusters, iron maiden from this company. They even gave a you a design that no one else has done for 40 years. Just for variety's sake.

I am only belaboring this issue because your initial point was to denounce another poster's point that Stern does make different styles of game. They do. Period. Again, like them or not that's fine. I've got no issues with your opinions on games that you choose to play/own.

But shooting down each suggestion of a game that doesn't fit into your crackpot theory that Stern doesn't, or at the very least, WILL NO LONGER make anything other than games like Munsters or Black Knight ever again is silly.

Whatever man, I don't care to keep talking the same thing over and over. Joy is the internet forum. The fact is that you are speculating with no evidence, just your gut feeling that Stern won't make unique layouts in the future. I disagree and I am defending their recent past as an alternative indication of their future output of playfield variety, you keep coming up with your own personal reasons why these games mentioned don't count, and won't continue into the future. BM66 and Beatles are not Stern games? I mean really? Who manufactures them? Why is their logo on it then?

Look, we will always disagree it seems and that's fine, but I am over this line of thought.

I read and represented it fine. You pontificate that it isn't what you meant. Rinse/repeat. On a better note, we agree that we feel like we are banging our heads against a wall with one another.

This was the point I disagreed with.

But let me extend an olive branch. I appreciate that you are passionate about pinball. I appreciate that you show concern for the future of pinball, and I appreciate that you say that you want different layouts in pinball and that you back that up with your wallet and put them into your collection. I don't want to focus on previous disagreements.

That sure is a cute way to put it. I prefer it as Stern fired a pedophile.

But to use your analogy “power hitters”

They only “traded away” one. Still have Keith and Gomez on the team. Back when JT was designing games, Keith wasn’t even “on the team”. More like Stern just traded a “power hitter” for another “power hitter” without the criminal background.

I played pre-2005 and am happy overall with Stern build quality. Games aren't loaded with mechanical goodies and molded plastics like the 90s games but they are very reliable to operate. Now they also are the best looking, and in my opinion the most fun to play.

I think that JJP makes games that are more comparable to the 90s games in terms of toys, and mechanical features but far less reliable to operate.

Currently have a Houdini from American pinball. All good so far, we will see how it holds up long term.

Can't speak to Spooky as I have only played a few, never operated one. TNA rules though!