Finally getting my Oktoberfest this weekend to compare

A route guy and tech like Rob has seen it all and it’s gotta be frustrating dealing with all those issues on a daily basis

At least for us HUO guys most of the fixes are easy, the support is excellent, and once the kinks are worked out it’s nothing but fun times

I doubt I’ll ever be able to wear out a game at home in my lifetime

We disagree on Black Knight, epic game in my opinion, but that's not the point.

Both games came out last year! They also gave us a revamped street level game in Beatles. Very different layouts, not cookie cutter. Yet you were complaining in your original post about Stern only doing cookie cutter layouts and dismissing all of their games that were unique. I was simply pointing out that along with Ghostbusters, Iron Maiden, BM66, there was also Deadpool. You can hate any of these games, that's fine but I think that it's unfair to blanket statement buzzwords like "cookie cutter layout" and cherry pick the data to suit a half baked argument. Just say that you don't like Munsters or Black Knight because of the similiarites to shot placements that you have seen before, not that Stern ONLY makes the same old sh&t every time.

Not singling you out btw, nothing against you. Many people on pinside do this and it's frankly a little ridiculous is all.

Remember, these are the "Best-built, Highest-Quality pinball machines" there are.

Go back and re-read what I wrote. I was not complaining about anything and I certainly don't "hate" any of the games. I think all pinball is good to a degree, but some games are much better than others. I was commenting on another quote where the person was giving examples of games he thought were non-cookie cutter games. My comments were simply that those games he highlighted are examples that are not likely to be repeated in the future since I doubt Keith is going to do another game on his own time and let Stern use the design again and Trudeau is never going to design another game for Stern...so if those were the best examples he could come up with, then the future does not look good. His other example of Batman 66 is almost the text book definition of cookie cutter since it is literally is the re-used layout from Dark Knight with some cost cutting removals. Same with your Beatles example...it is the Seawitch layout rethemed.

I personally don't enjoy Munsters because the code is way to shallow for my taste. The theme is ok, I watched re-runs as a kid, but I could take it or leave it. It's a beautiful game to look at, but I don't have any desire to play it when there are other options. I want more to a game, especially for home use. As for Black Knight, I like the code and the theme, but the layout is greatly lacking IMHO. I think there could/should have been more to it besides orbits and returns to the right flipper. I've only played the Pro, maybe the upper playfield makes that big of difference, but from what I have seen and heard from others, I don't think that is the case.

Stern was on the verge of going out of business at the FGY price point, and when TAF was selling they were selling way more units per machine in a completely different market. Not really an apples to apples comparison just looking at price in isolation.

That being said, I think I paid $6400 for my X-men LE in 2012, $2k less than Stern LEs now. For me personally the pinflation of the last few years is really what gets me. Most times I get excited about a new pin purchase, then think about the price, then decide my current collection is pretty nice.

I think I would enjoy pinball a lot more if I didn’t read pinside, much like the people I see discovering and re-discovering pinball with the games I own and maintain for the public.
This place is constantly just picking apart the industry, it’s depressing and irritating.
Peace out

Just a thought- For the money just what are you buying? Aside from a theme, not much. Everything that has been done in pinball over the decades has been pretty much done. Aside from one or two boutique companies no one is making anything interesting from a hardware point of view, just the opposite! Hardware is actually being removed by some vendors and "code" is being thrown out as a mantra for success and even then a good deal of the code is half-assed and you have to wait for years to get what you are promised up front, if at all.

Not good for the industry.

That's a weak statement. I mean so you're saying that Stern was happy to let John Trudeau unique games, but they won't be happy to allow Keith to do so in the future, even after the success of his first game Iron Maiden? Or maybe somehow that because now he works at Stern, he is just going to phone the next design in? And not play with the layout of his next game? Let us not forget Gomez just delivered Deadpool and BM66. He still is the creative director, and his games are always tweaking shots. So the question remains, Why are you speculating that they will only make 'cookie cutter' layouts from here on out with no indications from the recent past that this is the case?

Just another note on BM66, it shoots nothing like BMDK. It shares the same toy and theme (sorta). Ridiculous to say that makes it the same.

The beatles point was to prove that Stern offers VARIETY in games. You get Borg and Ritchie fan layouts that shoot great, but you also get games like deadpool, ghostbusters, iron maiden from this company. They even gave a you a design that no one else has done for 40 years. Just for variety's sake.

I am only belaboring this issue because your initial point was to denounce another poster's point that Stern does make different styles of game. They do. Period. Again, like them or not that's fine. I've got no issues with your opinions on games that you choose to play/own.

But shooting down each suggestion of a game that doesn't fit into your crackpot theory that Stern doesn't, or at the very least, WILL NO LONGER make anything other than games like Munsters or Black Knight ever again is silly.

I am buying "fun" (which is of course completely subjective). The shots, artwork, code, toys, sound effects, music and the theme all together to make a fun experience, where I can play for 10 or 15 minutes (who am I kidding sometimes I am happy with 5) and have a good time. I am not buying for innovation, the "geez, this has never been done before". That isn't what is important to me when playing pinball. YMMV.

I never said Keith won't design unique games in the future or that he will phone it in, I said I doubt he is going to be able to spend years designing one like he did with Archer that Stern will then get to use. Whatever he does going forward at Stern, I I have high hopes for Keith. I hope Keith is the next Trudeau when it comes to game design, because I loved how JT took chances and did something different. Now that JT is gone, that gap needs to be filled at Stern by someone.

Once again, I don't know why you are saying that I am "speculating that they will only make 'cookie cutter' layouts from here on out..." because I never said that. As I said before, I was just responding to someone else's comment about games he thought were unique. I said if those were his examples, things don't look good for the future because half the games he mentioned were from a designer that isn't with the company anymore, 1 was a special case that had years of development outside the company and the other was a retheme of a past layout. With exceptions to the B66 retheme, those other situations are not going to occur again in the future at Stern. Going back to the B66 and Beatles arguments really doesn't help your cause either Those were both limited edition Ka-Pow boutique games with higher price points, not standard releases. They didn't release those for "variety" sake...it was a premium price point cash grab both from recycled layouts. And the only reason B66 is as popular as it is now is because of Lyman's code work on it. That game was a box of lights for years until he worked his magic on it.

I do agree with you that Deadpool is a fun game. I like where they have taken it and I currently enjoy playing it more than any other Stern game from the last few years.

You're quick, I drained my post within a minute or two of posting it. I figured I had nothing really positive to add to the subject so moved on.

Yeah what a farce that is

That’s only half or less of pinside. The new pin buyers and collectors are a fickle bunch.
The best parts of pinside are the repair, restoration and community sections. Them’s good people.

These days, a lot of them aren't even "toy filled" anymore

Ok my point was disagreeing that Stearns are cookie cutter .I used a few examples which I thought illustrated they weren't. It's not gospel only my opinion. Further more I think GOT has unique set of rules maybe SW is along the same line's but it works enough for me to own SW.

I also like BK and may own as well, peace.

Whatever man, I don't care to keep talking the same thing over and over. Joy is the internet forum. The fact is that you are speculating with no evidence, just your gut feeling that Stern won't make unique layouts in the future. I disagree and I am defending their recent past as an alternative indication of their future output of playfield variety, you keep coming up with your own personal reasons why these games mentioned don't count, and won't continue into the future. BM66 and Beatles are not Stern games? I mean really? Who manufactures them? Why is their logo on it then?

Look, we will always disagree it seems and that's fine, but I am over this line of thought.

It's obvious that you aren't over anything and do want to keep talking the same thing over and over...as you continue to do it...over and over while continuing to basically ignore what I actually wrote. If that's what you insist on talking away from it, it's clear there's no telling you otherwise. Good luck.

I read and represented it fine. You pontificate that it isn't what you meant. Rinse/repeat. On a better note, we agree that we feel like we are banging our heads against a wall with one another.

This was the point I disagreed with.

But let me extend an olive branch. I appreciate that you are passionate about pinball. I appreciate that you show concern for the future of pinball, and I appreciate that you say that you want different layouts in pinball and that you back that up with your wallet and put them into your collection. I don't want to focus on previous disagreements.

Les Manley: the team traded its power hitters, so it will need to replace them to hit home runs in the future

Guy Montag: STOP SAYING THEY WON’T KEEP HITTING HOME RUNS

That sure is a cute way to put it. I prefer it as Stern fired a pedophile.

But to use your analogy “power hitters”

They only “traded away” one. Still have Keith and Gomez on the team. Back when JT was designing games, Keith wasn’t even “on the team”. More like Stern just traded a “power hitter” for another “power hitter” without the criminal background.

Rob has nailed it!!!

The only point I would add ( my perspective) ...Stern added an entire MB lower pf, plywood cab...QC issues are next to nil( believe node boards have calmed, but still there), and the game( Munsters) continues to get destroyed due to an easy code release. They made serious effort w this game, imho, regarding any actual toy, and build quality

Absolutely over " the best quality games ever built" bs used to justify insane wait times, huge prices, then Band-Aids for "fixes"...Too many people are getting hit hard....People that want them to succeed( me being one).

Ironic that node board issues are slowing, yet JJP charges a hefty price for their board upfits to finally(?) overcome their board issues. Much more of a recall in nature, but treated as a money maker. And yes, their boards fail. No one was more of a fan of WOZ than me, and put in the effort to get the game solid ( still have and love it).

I'm just so over getting PM's, seeing the threads, regarding JJP QC...Something is very wrong.

Slam a Stern for anything...Everyone chimes in.....Dare jump into the current POTC thread with a "wtf"...( which I haven't)..You will be burned at the cross....Sick of double standards.

My lineup will grow w older games at a slower pace...endless Munsters bashing is beyond old, and NIB is currently dead to me on the JJP front. No one sadder than me...

Exactly. Deadpool is anything but cookie cutter, and like you said, nothing else out there shoots like it.

Iron Maiden is also obviously not a cookie cutter design. When was the last time a Stern pin had 4 flippers?

Bingo. I took Avengers off my wish list once I played DP. It's definitely what Avengers should have been.

Seems like two camps when it comes to build quality. Those who played before the year 2005 are kind of disappointed by quality and those who started after 2005 are mostly OK with the quality as they just know the new standard for quality. Certainly not everyone will fall into these two groups but there is definitely a gap in the way of thinking about quality.

I played pre-2005 and am happy overall with Stern build quality. Games aren't loaded with mechanical goodies and molded plastics like the 90s games but they are very reliable to operate. Now they also are the best looking, and in my opinion the most fun to play.

I think that JJP makes games that are more comparable to the 90s games in terms of toys, and mechanical features but far less reliable to operate.

Currently have a Houdini from American pinball. All good so far, we will see how it holds up long term.

Can't speak to Spooky as I have only played a few, never operated one. TNA rules though!

Thanks for your feedback. In the end I believe these discussions are a good thing for the community as a whole.

Hilarious to consider in retrospect how many online loyalists down here were also completely convinced at the time that the guy was actually going to capture market share from Stern simply by pricing below the Pro model.

Even better was that this was somehow going to be achieved by completely dismissing the US market.

I'll be honest, while I agree with Rob's points, I don't think these issues with quality of design and manufacture are really 'new', nor are they unique to the
current crop of manufacturers. We may want to remember the Glory Days as being wonderful, but they really weren't all that better. There are a few notable things I can think of.

The Williams GI lighting issues, with roasting connectors, which started in System 7 and continued all the way through the end of WPC.

Williams WPC reset issues due to a mismatch in tolerances between the voltage regulator and reset circuit.

Williams leaf switches with the reversed rivets, those are so much fun.

Gottlieb, with their ground issues from System 1 that continued into System 80.

I agree there is room for improvement in the current crop..... but that Williams pedestal wasn't made to the best quality either.

One likes to believe
In the freedom of pinball
But glittering prizes
And endless compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity,…

AP games have "horrible" themes? I don't know anything about their earnings on route compared to other games, but it seems to me their themes are refreshing, fun, and timeless. I've observed that their games are a smash hit at pinball shows.

Best post of 2019.

Totally, 100% agree. I had high hopes for this game. Once I played it, not only was it sparse, the main "toy" in the game was stationary. Could not agree more.

How is a spinning flail and a shield that raises and lowers “stationary”? There are also lights in the helmet that flash with the taunts.

I’d call it a very active mechanical toy. It’s possibly one of the most active toys I’ve seen.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I don’t really consider the shield and flail part of the toy. They feel disconnected or separate from the Knight.
For a game that is more sparse than any other cornerstone Stern in history combined with probably the cheapest license in Stern History, it is rather disappointing that the Knight himself doesn’t move in any way, shape, or form. Leds don’t count nor did I even notice them during gameplay.
I enjoy playing the game, but it could have, and should have been so much more.