Vancouver, BC
The excitement is building. Please keep the updates coming!
(Topic ID: 115360)
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Dutch Pinball, 2016
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1 month later
1 week later
genex how much? Your a good man Concretehardt a true pleasure meeting you at the show. I will donate my Raza spot to you or any recovery that comes from it to help with your situation. Excited to see you are here on TBL there's a very good shot you will be getting this one! Cheers Mate
3 weeks later
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:I hope it shows a pile of at least 58 ps's
Wow and all us after? 
4 months later
3 weeks later
Agreed, they shared they were having problems with the electronics (late October) and now sharing they possibly have the solution. Seem very confident as well to predict "customers" will be receiving their machines in Q1. Thanks for keeping us up to date DP, let's hope this solve the problems!
4 months later
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:image_(resized).jpeg
3 weeks later
Thanks for the video very nice to see. I did get the opportunity to play PDX Monkeys for hours last week before we drove down to Pinagogo. I will first say, I have had my money down in full since the beginning so you can take what you want from this however I was on the fence about keeping my position.......not anymore. The shots are extremely satisfying and the the flow is as good as many of the top flowing machines out there. This machine, if done right, will be a very fun pin to hold for long period of time. I was wondering from the current owners why the carpet, when hit directly, does not seem to move back on many occasions. I believe it must not register during certain times? I really hope for 10k, they spend the resources to program this thing to the hilt because as far as I am concerned the game is a blast to shoot and it deserves it.
Still after playing monkeys machine I do think there was no rhyme nor reason why or why not the rug moved even when hit hard sometimes it didn't. I assume there is times when it's not suppose to? Is there anything that qualifies it or I'm just a weak pansy with my shots?
8 months later
The Dutch do showmanship well. I have dealt with them in business before and I hate painting with a wide brush however I will say this....every time I have dealt with the Dutch, I have been fed many lies and exaggerations that constantly have to be sifted through. I am not saying this is the same situation as I have no knowledge of wha the truth is or what is really going on just find it very interesting that i received two emails one after the other basically covering asses.
Sorry, as we Canadians say, to those Dutch offended but I did say with a wide brush! Having said that three deals...two property and one pinball, all ending in lies and exaggerations. I'm fing pissed off. Just spent two months straightening the Jpop deal out as best I could then kicked in the Canadian nads again by more lies from Dutch Pinball. Ok so maybe I can paint pinball companies as liars as well! However this would be with a very narrow brush.. possibly one horse hair 
I do apologize again my Dutch fellow enthusiasts, I just lost my cool 
2 weeks later
2 weeks later
i'm pretty pissed at myself for listening to Barry and staying in as an achiever or whatever cute little name they came up with to make sure they would keep as much money as they could. Done are the days of giving pinball companies any benefit of the doubt that they care about you as an individual. Why in the hell do I have to wait and try and find information about whats going on when anyone with a pulse will know why I haven't got my machine 3 years later and why I have spent over 10k to these ass clowns and have nothing. Come to TPF to find out why you left us a huge sum of money after begging you to stay in! Attention Barry....I live in Canada. I am not going to TPF. I am an early achiever, you have my money. I would like a detailed accounting of where my money and or machine is. I deserve this information before any public announcements......especially before announcing game number 2. If you take in one dollar more before you give mine back and or a game let this be a warning to you. I have requested my money and or machine now, March 22 2017. I will be sending an email directly as well. You are on the verge of operating business no different than Zidware. Do some research and see how that turned out. I'm tired of this situation, how your treating your clients, and its time you wake up.
Seriously Rensh why do you have inside information on whats happening (pun intended see above) and none of the over achievers have had a call, a personal email or jack shit to be honest. What is it about running a good company that's so hard in pinball?
Quoted from spfxted:It's amazing how nobody actually knows shit, but can make up plenty of stuff to keep the bitch fest going.....
That's exactly the problem my friend..... No one except maybe Rensh knows jack shit! 
Can someone please pm me the exact part where Dutch pinball directly mislead us and lied about the boards being the issue and why we sat around. Lawyer wants this exact wording and proof and if their was an admission from Jaap if you could pm me this as well cheers Bill
Sorry these Dutch pricks are not going to get away with this no different than jpop or ap. pinball is hard is a cop out. Running a good sound business is not hard and if you think pinball is hard gets you off business is easy then you have another thing coming. Tell the law pinball is hard and see if they care. If you cant run a business properly then don't manufacture anything. If you have to lie to run business then you should never have gone into business in the first place.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Yeah it's a great idea. In reality a dispute over tens of thousands of dollars probably isn't going to be settled by both parties agreeing to just forget about it and give a bunch of money to charity.
Its a taxable write off for ARA so almost as valuable financially. Dutch doesn't pay into or loose money the stupid over achievers do and who benefits....children that NEED the money. The one caveat I would throw in is Dutch never runs a pinball business again.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I'm no expert on international tax law. I just don't see how ARA / Dutch can possibly write off tens of thousands of dollars in dispute, and then donate another shitload of money "to the children" and then everything will just work out in the books and everybody will be smiling and 50 Lebowskis will be on the way to their new owners. And this in socialist europe where businesses actually have to pay taxes.
If I buy you all rocket tickets back to planet earth/reality can I write that off as an act of charity and it'll all be a wash?
Please tell me whats owing? This is something I don't know. I am under the assumption that a third party would negotiate whats really owing and what it takes to complete and get the games shipped. If Dutch is willing to sign they are never going to operate in this field again for obvious reasons, and ARA receives no cash, part cash, and the tax benefits which would be paid by all those who still need to get their machines then this could possibly speed up the process which you already say will eventually work its way out. In other words get Dutch Pinball the &%$#@%$# out of there. ARA receives most its money in an indirect way (I have used this method before) and they also receive great exposure for doing the right thing and donating to a worthy cause. The people who have to buck up like me, because of the idiots at Dutch pinball, can then choose to sue Dutch Pinball for the money we lost because of their lies and inability to do business and protect their clients while at least feeling good that most or some of the money went to charity. I have no doubt where the issue lies. This also means, and make no mistake about it, most of us over idiot achievers will have to pay far more than 1k, however better than waiting three years and having to pay anyway. I think worth a shot and I will continue on the process suing Dutch pinball. its going to have to happen one way or the other.
Its been brought to my attention Jaap had apologized for the lies and learnt a big life lesson, or something like this, at a conference and during a speech but not in writing. Please if anyone attended and can send me a recording it would be greatly appreciated
Quoted from jayhawkai:There's not enough money to go around. Adding a charity to the mix, as heartwarming as it sounds, makes no sense.
just stop please
Quoted from jayhawkai:One of us is being rational, and it's not the guy asking Dutch to sign a consent decree that they'll never operate in the pinball industry.
Really don't need to, as who would buy from people who lie to your face anyway.
Quoted from jayhawkai:There's not enough money to go around. Adding a charity to the mix, as heartwarming as it sounds, makes no sense.
I think the concept has gone over your head. And please for all those that are in the know,
Quoted from jayhawkai:There's not enough money to go around. Adding a charity to the mix, as heartwarming as it sounds, makes no sense.
Quoted from Cornelius:AP hasn't "gotten away" with anything; in fact, they've even helped Magic Girl owners get their units (for better or for worse). AP needs to be left out of the "companies that are fucking up" conversation post haste, especially with their strong showing at TPF.
I agree 100 % with this and they had no idea at the time what they had gotten into with Jpop. They have turned it around quickly and have produced a very nice machine with there own assets which is extremely impressive.
Quoted from jayhawkai:Yep. I'm glad I was able to change your mind so quickly.
Oh you haven't, however no sense in arguing 
you would be surprised what people sign when they have to or shall we say want to
Quoted from fosaisu:So what you're saying is, you'll make DP an offer they can't refuse?
Quoted from Cornelius:Damn, it's cool to drop the See You Next Tuesday bomb on Pinside nowadays??
only in the Labowski thread
Quoted from EternalLife:Rarehero, you need to calm the f*ck down. RTR, being a hothead accomplishes nothing. I'm only saying lets work with DP to solve whatever issue there is to get this back on track. Code's not finished, want a half coded game? I want to work with the guys to make this dream a reality. It's too great a game to not see it through..
I could be wrong, but I am thinking you have your game and all your worried about is code.
Quoted from Cornelius:I could also be wrong, but seems like the hot-headed behavior in this thread is going to lead to NOBODY getting their Lebowskis. Oh, won't that be an interesting thread.
yea your wrong
I believe the lies are deep and what, one phone call to ARA revealed a big one? If anyone thinks this is an isolated incident of one lie I would have to disagree. We have a mediator already who is willing to take on this huge pile of dung so we all can wait and see what comes of this but I for one totally understand the frustration of many when they don't have the gonads to buck up become transparent and tell the fing truth. It makes the people donating their times job that much harder.
Quoted from EternalLife:I'm in the same boat you are WC. My game is one of the completed games at ARA ready to ship. I want all 300 TBL's to be built and see everyone get their games - with finished code.
Then my apologies however please understand where the frustration comes from and its not Greg or anyone else on here. Where is DP????????? where is the transparency? They show up and want to sell 12500 dollar BOPS. Are you fing crazy. They think this profit will get the games out of hawk? They blew a ton on showmanship girls and spouting off at the mouth how they are number one and will take over the pinball world. Really? I have zero respect for these guys I actually feel more for jpop who is just a really really really terrible business man but at least has a soul given it's a little misguided at times They also watched Zidware follies, how can you not learn? Narcissism at it's finest ....again
Quoted from eggbert52:For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.
250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. The cost of each BOP to make is probably $2.5K so that's your remaining $62,500. Totally feasible.
Quoted from Mr68:They are in dangerous potential legal waters and attempting to negotiate a deal. They have to be careful and limited in what they say. I'm surprised they've said as much as they have so far.
Your kidding right? So lie instead?
1 month later
So what is different about this update than the last, 3 weeks ago.......answer, nothing. They need to tell us exactly what the meeting about OUR money/game was about and why in three hours and another three weeks there is no new information. This is absolutely a bunch of bullshit and DP needs to come clean and be held accountable.
Who cares about speculation. This is a DP issue period. So fing tell us why I can't get a refund? Duh no money! Or refund me now DP. Why does everyone stick their heads in the sand ? This is a DP issue. DP is telling us absolutely nothing. Why? Legal lol get fing real. They are stalling to find money. They owe money. They owe us money / machines. Give us the fucking answers and tell us where our money is and where our machines stand. Anything else is complete and utter bullshit. 5 weeks and not one piece of information. Get your heads out of your ass!
Rubberducks you obviously know everything there is to know about business. Yes right they are not allowed to refund me my money. Are you insane. My game isn't even built yet. I don't need you trying to convince other hard working hobbyists their hands are tied and DP can't pay refunds. They aren't paying because they don't have the money to pay them. That's fact. It is time they tell us exactly what is going on. 5 weeks is enough and I'm smart enough not to take advice from your legal knowledge of the situation. Is there even lawyers involved? Refund as per your own contract DP. You can't keep bullshitting the community enough is enough.
Quoted from rubberducks:It's speculation. Just like everything else on here. Rest is redundant.
No its not I have an email from them stating they can't. They don't have the money. I don't state things ever as speculation. I leave that for you.
Quoted from Compy:Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...
Big surprise there. Keep your heads in the sand people!
2 weeks later
Quoted from Rarehero:I'm flipping out at your inane assessment of things, not so much the situation itself. You've managed to become worse than DP in a DP thread. Congrats.
Hmmm this is a very fing tough call 
Quoted from flynnibus:Not paying a bill doesn't automatically mean you CAN'T pay it. If a vendor just sent you a bill for an amount you don't agree with, are you just going to pay it because they sent it? You can't assume non-payment means insolvent. Non-payment can be a choice.
The grounds to hold hostage and demand money can be any number of contractual issues from any number of the steps along the way. We really have little to go on except that there is a disagreement on the monies owed.
I have an email saying they can't afford to pay back the requests for refund.....does this count?
1 week later
And how did I know DP would put their own best interests first. I was never asked my opinion as a early adopter and again they portray us all by quoting the reasons they don't want to take a deal. What a crock. This signals the death of TBL and quite frankly DP. I don't even want to get into their reasoning and how a "deal" would go down. This is not a lawyer or business man making the decisions this is the same two egos who have always made bad decisions from the start. RIP DP and most everyone that entrusted their hard earned money to these clowns
Is there anyone in the Holland area that has had it with these ego driven morons and want to do a little leg work to find a good bankruptcy lawyer? Please PM me.No deal in business isn't figured out right to the end ie if they give up 51% ARA or whoever need to achieve ab and c in order to retain 51% of the company. These are lies perpetuated by the big egos of DP and they are never gonna sell machines in the future anyway. They are done handling anyone's money but their own! Who the fu*&%$ would entrust these idiots with money again?
Quoted from karl:So, If I read this correct, DP is only doing what we are asking them to do?
Who want their Game instead of a rocky path to the cliff of death instead?
Funny enough, they never asked me what I want, but now we are the reason why they chose this path?
Someone has been eating from the strange smelling dutch cookie jar
No they just lie. Always have always will
Quoted from Biv:Well, with accepting this deal, only the already built machines might be "save"
There is absolutely no guarantee that they will continue to assemble the other 200 pins....so there is big potential to screw over many owners anyway.
you are wrong
It never ceases to amaze me, the people who just take liars words for it and run with it.
They are broke. They screwed it up by pissing away money left right and center. They still are lying and hiding behind God knows who. Lawyers, business advisors? Comon. After all these companies out and out lie I think I will caution on the side of time to sue DP. kapper we are on it and will pm you when we need you
You guys are funny. What do we see here, both are lying? DP we know lies, how on earth are you to sort anything out unless legally? lrt them sit on your hard earned money (if any left at all) and machines, watch a game of lying ping pong go back and forth until you end up with nothing... or at least try and get some truth and real answers and make them accountable which obviously is not in their make up. Two or three people don't want a settlement with ARA everyone would rather see them play hardball and produce more machines in the future This again is an out and out lie. I'm just tired of these clowns and i am talking strictly in the business sense.
Quoted from Rarehero:» YouTube video
I too have asked for a refund on more than one occasion with a response of.."we do not have the money to do this" How do you go to new manufacturers with no money? How do you think you will design and build a new BOP with no money? Do you really think after all the lies and no self realization on how bad they are dealing with this, its best to just sit back while they flounder? Rensh, you seem to be a very nice guy and I understand you are friends with Barry and Jaap but this lack of communication, lack of transparency, and out right lies is not something most would want to sit back and just let them "deal" with it.
1 week later
Quoted from knockerlover:Sounds like there are buyers out there for 8500. Maybe tuna delight has some friends.
There is no one out there willing to pay the whole 8500 dollars, lets not be stupid. It just happened to go to the guy with the loudest voice and a straight line to the people who control the license and guess what..... he didn't even have his machine for sale. Good work Rarehero I tip my hat to your brilliant play. Thanks Barry for paying out the select ONE you choose to pay with my money and every one elses. Let me guess someone wanted a spot and you just happened to choose Rarehero and sent a personal wire to his account. This one stinks to high heaven and wires don't lie, however it's proven DP does.
Not speculation. Rarehero never had for sale wanted refund like everyone else that's asked threatened to phone licensee again. Barry sent Wire for full refund. Again let me guess someone bought his particular spot without contacting Rarehero. When are you people gonna learn. You think these guys don't lie? You think they had a live / dead question period so no one could pin them with real questions. Nothing answered about money. Nothing answered that will tell anyone where they really stand. Wtf this isn't rocket science.
Quoted from EternalLife:Maybe the spot sold so fast because it's a low number finished game? It would benefit ARA to reach an agreement before the new quote comes in.
Grow up. Who's paying full price without negotiating with seller. Why did Barry send the wire. Get numbers from Wire and stop giving these asshole slack. They need to be held accountable not hide behind a " live" question period that wasn't live at all. For all you know they filmed a day early edited and put only the questions they wanted to answer on.
Quoted from EternalLife:He's been complaining for quite a while, why refund him now? Let's hope we may be closer to a resolution and having the finished games shipped, and the rest built with ARA or the new CM.
I told you threatened to phone licensee again. You obviously will never get it. Send me 8500 for my spot. Your soooo sure you can sell later for big profits! Right insert excuse here
yes sure less risk on his you obviously don't get it. There are others assembled that asked for refunds. Keep finding excuses and please ask exactly where the wire came from. I will be calling the licensee tomorrow as well. Oh and I guarantee the question "where did the wire come from" , wouldn't have been answered on the " live" show. Also it won't make a difference in the outcome if your machine is together or not
Whos we're? What is your relationship with these guys? Do you know them personally because you obviously hate to look at facts. These guys are two douche bags, proven to lie. They do what they want with other peoples money and in no way have ever listened nor provided real financial information to anyone with their hard earned money entrusted to them. You continue to provide every excuse in the book for them and I will continue to ignore those excuses. The licensee needs to know about these douche bags and if rarehero isn't here anymore to do this I have no issues doing it myself. 
Quoted from sd_tom:K brings up a good point.. even now people are gushing over Andrew after he had to be removed from company DP gets no slack at all. What's the difference? Andrew is more personable? More willing to lie with '2 more weeks' for two years which "feels" better than the ones DP has done. It's all the same thing, one is sugar coated. I guess that's why you sugar coat things
errrr did you see eternallife's posts Tom? These guys are not going grey like Andrew and still come across cocky as hell and refuse to answer any "real" financial questions. No slack should be given to anyone pulling a salary from our hard earned money and refusing to answer the real questions.
Quoted from cudabee:They are forced by dutch law to take a salary with ,if i remember correct, a minimum of 40000 a year and pay income taxes over that amount.
If this is true no wonder they are talking like they still have money to continue on with a new manufacturer. No wonder this is just being stretched out. Oh look we are finally out of money! Wake up people
Quoted from flynnibus:What was this?
A shot in the dark on a forum. Like many others that have formerly sent in refund requests long before this post why was he paid in full?This claim is based on... ?
fact
Quoted from TigerLaw:Have they said Rarehero's spot was sold to someone else and that's why he alone got the refund? That seems like it would be a pretty large coincidence...to say the least...
Are Barry and Jaap still drawing a salary? Is it true that Cointaker has deposit money not remitted to DP held in a type of escrow or something? Sorry to be behind on the status of things...fast moving thread.
There is no large coincidence here. It fell on the day he was to call his people about the license
If anyone truly believes someone paid him through DP yes through Barry, full price, right after he threatens to go down the rabbit hole and head towards getting license revoked, then do I have a future pinball game to sell you!
Also who is eternallife to Barry and Jaap. Seems has info and supporting every crooked thing they do.
Quoted from EternalLife:WC, I assure you I'm only an EA - just like you. I have no additional contact with DP or info than you.
RH made a ton of threats, and DP never refunded so I doubt they did it now.
Just guessing that we may be a few weeks away from ARA settling with DP. If that happens then some lucky person jumped in for 2 or 3 weeks and will have a finished game very soon.
Just a guess so please don't think I have inside info if it does happen.
1 month later
Again, build on the backs of the paid customer. WTF. Why is everyone in this hobby so fing non business like? Wild west? DP, do like everyone else does in business that wants to make a living. Take your pre orders to a bank and get loans that you are responsible for! Go to your new manufacturing buddies and cut them into the company if they lend you enough to get the people who have paid years ago their machines. In other words do the fing business financing and figuring out for yourself. Be responsible for your success and or failure. Fellow hobbyists .... stop telling these supposed "business" men, and I use the term very lightly here, that it's OK to make a living on the back of customers. They have fu*ked up and so did we by giving them our money. So stop telling them it's OK to try again on the backs who have paid holy crap
2 weeks later
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:
Im gonna play and enjoy my TBL again. You will probably never as I think you will try to sell it NIB as soon if you get it.
My apologies, you must be 2 years old and stolen your mothers pass code. Have fun.
2 weeks later
1 month later
Quoted from jpk1972:As EA #187 i have basically been very silent in all of this. However, I will be happy if and when I get my TBL. I do think that the least DP can do is ship the EA games out at no extra cost! Just my opinion, but for me that would satisfy this dude! Let's hope these things keep going in the positive direction!
You do realize that there are roughly 150 people in front of you? Given that they make an estimated 1k clear per machine (could be more if they would stop traveling all over the world telling everyone how great they are doing), they need to sell 1.5 million dollars worth of Lebowskis' before your even considered. And your worried about delivery charges?
1 month later
4 months later
Are these machines (that are possibly getting built), for the people who have already paid in full and are in line for...well, forever, or are they getting passed over for new sales? No one has asked and they have not bothered to mention anything on how they will make it into people who have had their hard earned money in for years.
This is what Im saying, they are telling everyone production right around the corner yet have said nothing on how it will work. why not? They should take a loan and get all the achievers their games and then pay the loan off with opening up new sales. That's how it works in the real world. This whole fiasco is their responsibility and yet people are offering to pay them for another machine and sell it for them? my god can they tell us what they are doing exactly with all those who paid in full? Why is this a secret?
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:No. Besides the 50+ games actually delivered to North America and within Europe, the only real known regarding TBL is that approximately 150 of us are out $8,500 with no game to show for it going on four years now.
The rest is largely DP's spin, hearsay, and/or speculation by others.
Which is exactly why they need to step the @%$# up and tell those who's money they have spending, what they are exactly going to do to get their games and or money back and it should be first
Quoted from Rensh:I have said it befor but also over here it is rather simple to pursuit unpaid bills.
However, you need to proof you deserve to get paid and did your part of the deal. Just suppose that DP has been telling the truth an investigation will proof immediately that ÄRA didn’t fulfill their part of the deal and breached the contract..... So the lack of action from ÄRA where I guess they have at least like 750K at stake (remember that they prepaid a lot of the parts) is proof for me that DP is telling the truth.
Otherwise I totally fail to understand why ÄRA hasn’t filed a payment claim. They are a reasonable sized company but also for them 750K is no small change.
They have asked me to be a plaintive in their suit. Apparently they need a certain number over there to file?
1 month later
Quoted from wcbrandes:This is what Im saying, they are telling everyone production right around the corner yet have said nothing on how it will work. why not? They should take a loan and get all the achievers their games and then pay the loan off with opening up new sales. That's how it works in the real world. This whole fiasco is their responsibility and yet people are offering to pay them for another machine and sell it for them? my god can they tell us what they are doing exactly with all those who paid in full? Why is this a secret?
posting again for you Rare!
Is it even legal, of course given the jurisdiction, to sell a product to a new customer when there are 150 people waiting for theirs and have prepaid for the exact same product they will be producing and selling? I would love to ask a lawyer who specializes in this arena. For some reason it goes against by better judgement and I would think the line is getting crossed somewhere.
1 week later
Quoted from highdef:Do I still want this game? Absolutely. However, I rightfully no longer feel confident in the sustainability of this project. This is based on DP's performance so far, including failing to prove the delays aren't tied to financial problems. I have no clue if/when I'll see this game, so telling me or anyone else that "waiting" is the only option is a feeble-minded opinion (that I intend to ignore).
Failing to deliver a branded product to consumers is obviously a breach of contract. What DP fails to realize is the liability they put on Universal Licensing LLC by not delivering this product. Universal is on the hook here too, whether they, DP, or you like it or not. I lived 6 miles from Universal Studios (Universal Licensing LLC) when I put down my first/last deposits. I still live in California, so game-on should DP push me to go there because it's definitely the proper venue. I think I've been more than patient. DP and ARA were super gung-ho and aligned when I paid my final deposit, so I expected them to come through. They should have worked it out with ARA.
I'm not making threats or making this personal, but DP needs to wise-up...NOW. I know what strings to pluck and have no problem proving it.
Hi def, I will personally fly down get a meeting with the right department and accompany you to Universal Licensing. The way DP communicates with good people who entrusted their money to them is disgusting. I am sure Universal will want a good update about their license and what the people they entrusted too are doing or better said...not doing.
Quoted from highdef:No need to travel Mr. Brandes:
Vince Klaseus
President, Brand Development at NBCUniversal, Inc.
vince.klaseus(*at*)nbcuni.com
Tricia Chaves
Vice President - Domestic Licensing at Universal Studios
tricia.chaves(*at*)nbcuni.com
Cindy Chang
SVP, Consumer Products, NBCUniversal Brand Development
cindy.chang(*at*)nbcuni.com
Stephanie Sperber
EVP, Universal Partnerships, Licensing and Digital Licensing
stephanie.sperber(*at*)nbcuni.com
Robert Oberschelp
VP, Brand Development at NBCUniversal
robert.oberschelp(*at*)nbcuni.com
Since we can't get answers from DP, perhaps someone at Universal can tell us when we can expect to receive our games. I'm positive Universal would also agree that DP's "no refund policy" is unlawful and unenforceable, especially here in California. As many of you know, corporate licensing departments are typically made up of attorneys or at least attached at the hip to the corporate legal team.
One last thing...PayPal isn't immune either.
Thanks Hi def I will also send in Email asking for at least conference call to establish how and what Universal are capable of doing to a licensee that has taken money for their brand and not only did not deliver to the majority but are refusing to refund while they take what....salaries for 4 years Cheers mate
Quoted from MPRAMONE:what good thing to happen after that ? games coming out faster ?
I guess like Rensh wrote earlier that DP do what they can right now and they struggle hard despite what some of us think of the situation.
2 months later
3 months later
I would think, if those 40 some machines are given back to DP and since all monies are involved in building those, they would auction them off for say 20k or whatever they could get in an open market then pay people back proportionally. If any one wants one that money back could go for whatever they are going for. Basically like bankruptcy without putting them there.
8 months later
Quoted from dung:Which is why I said debatable. Parts availability/repair knowledge has historically kept some titles value low. Mystery Castle,AG Soccerball/USA Football for alvin g. Pinball Magic is another. DE/Sega large and small dmd games.
Essentially if it is perceived as hard to get parts for or difficult to maintain it hurts the value. Alien suffers from this a bit. Full Throttle really suffers from it.
Yea but it's Labowski 
Quoted from mgpasman:35? Before, it was mentioned CT got 40. Where did the other 5 go?
Nitro in Canada
Quoted from MPRAMONE:acid rain is gonna pour on new owners celebrating and showing their TBL unboxing parties , well from EAs it's expected at least and totally understandable
what if those owners are also EA's that were paid in full?
Quoted from Drewscruis:What would really suck, is if these get paid for when shipping is confirmed. Then the ship they are on sinks.
these are all insured for full value does anyone read this thread?
1 week later
This is all about money, there is zero regards to who should have had the first crack at the remaining 40. Who wants to loose 1k or more in a deposit if they dont have too? All Barry wants is as much money as possible to pay his debts to ARA, simple as that . If there is no legal responsibility to the ones paid in full they have the run of the camp. I am guilty for not bothering to organize a legal stance against DP so I have zero credibility to criticize . I feel bad for all those paid in full and did not get this opportunity
1 week later
Which is precisely why you sue him. If Barry doesnt have to answer you truthfully or in full then why would he? He just wants to be out of debt himself meaning personally and DP wise because yes lawsuits can spill over personally if any guarantees were made I would imagine there are now. Barry must be sooo happy everyone has just laid down and let him do exactly what he wants with parts and machines that in any other circumstance, would not be his to sell again and again. In business you put a suit in to get answers, truthfully in full answers. What you do after that is entirely then based on facts not Barry and friends polished info they want you to have.
They sold approx. 150 games at say 8.5 k US, which is 1.275 million us dollars. They then sold 40 games at 12,500 US, which is 500k which takes us to 1.75 million for 90 games delivered at 19, 444 per game collected if you were to average out. The bom was suppose to be roughly 6k each when in discussion with Barry. So where has all the money gone between the cost, 6 k per machine, and 19,444.00 that he has collected to date on the 90 machines delivered ? The old one for you two for me business practices are alive and well at DP ! Makes me sick and yet there are those still believing in DP and Barry.....wake up
Quoted from pinballslave:My guess is the set up cost of 2 companies to start making the games, lawyers fees due to the ARA mess, flights to China/USA and bottles of Kaluah.
keep going! What salaries did these guys take? Since no one has sued them yet, they have only disclosed they had to take salaries by law of the Netherlands. What they didn't say is it legal to put the money right back in to the company till its off the ground or indefinitely duh!
Quoted from RTS:The time to bale was before Phil left.
It was after hearing Phil spew his arrogance at Expo. The same show where they wasted all that preorder money on a ridiculous party.
He set the tone by behaving like a rock star before actually forming a band. There is a video of his arrogant presentation which was a clue of the mismanagement facing DP.
Can someone post this video please, I was not there
Cheers
Quoted from Roostking:Here is "a" video shot in a penthouse. Not sure if this is the party.
Cool thanks would love to get the presentation as well if anyone can dig that up . Cheers
Quoted from Concretehardt:The problem is that the games are not DP’s assets anymore, DP apparently never paid ARA for the games and a judge sided with ARA, so they are ARA’s assets now... it sucks but is is what it is.
Dont think this is actually accurate. There was no judgement recorded. It seems this is a deal DP and ARA came up with so 1. Barry can get out of ARA debt and ARA get paid what they are owed in full without any other EA or registered claimant interfering. I believe this is why the EA's should be filing asap otherwise all assets are taken even the ones that are above what ARA are owed. Barry is literally getting all credit for the machines and parts the EA' s have paid for. Normally he would not be on the list of creditors. This is completely f..cked what they are pulling here.
Show us the recorded ruling or stop with the "this is what whoever said" bullshit. If there's an official court ordered recorded ruling someone should be able to produce it ie Barry, or anyone living over there that speaks the language. Here we are again just making assumptions based on zero facts.
Quoted from RTR:Thread finally getting interesting. About time.
Someone needs to obtain that ruling and share it here.
One thing that needs to be clarified . That this is a recorded ruling not just a ruling with a judge allowing the two companies to come up with their own solution before its recorded into the courts. In other words judges can suspend a ruling if two parties involved come up with their own solution. This is what needs to be clarified and fast. Is there no Dutch pinball brothers able to get this information? Cheers
Quoted from dung:Good luck with that. a 10k pro model? Won't sell. If this were in regular production for 10k today it would probably be received rather cooly. Some would buy it for the theme, but many would probably look at it and pass as there are other games for less that offer too many features. It pulls 12.5k right now because it is rare, that is it. Same with Alien.
I respectfully have to disagree. The music, the call outs, the play, the integration. The game is why I would pay 12,500 today with all else out there including jp2 or willy Wonka. This, as much as I cant stand the DP guys and what they have done, is one of the all time best examples of pinball I have played in a very long time and maybe even ever.
Quoted from Dkjimbo:Does anyone actually see a mathematical way forward to fulfill the EA buyers who have been screwed? What is the ACTUAL cost to produce a game now and who is going to produce them? Even if the parts are "paid for", the labor to build, the tools to build, the space to build, palettes and boxes, none of that exists or is accounted for! And what about the shipping costs? just a direct pass-through to the buyers I suppose?
Surely they do not have all parts on hand. And what about the cut that CT or nitro take? So lets play the game - if it costs $5000 to build one of these new machines with parts on hand for all the extra costs, they sell for $12,500, CT takes what, $2000? So they need to sell how many to start to build a war chest to actually pay out of pocket to build the EA games and send them out for free? Is that realistic at all???
I have tried to do and guess the math and the answer that keeps coming up is NO
Quoted from VividPsychosis:The solution is very easy. He finds an investor or two that provide the money. It is really that simple. To say no one would ever work with him is silly. No one on pinside probably would, but there is a great big world out there and lots of people with more money than you could imagine. A 1-2 million dollar start up is relatively cheap.
I do agree with you whole heartedly, and deep down I really hope you are right however how many millionaires out there want to get into bed with liars and do no due diligence at all? This is why I keep coming up with NO, the liar quotient
Quoted from JimB:It would be nice if the flippers would send their profit back to DP. An honorable way to help the EA’s. Fat chance I know.
This is the funniest post I've seen in a while. Flippers send your money back to the real criminal, the guy that stole the machines, sold them twice, and paid off his debt for running his business into the ground. And oh, he used others money to live off for years, he deserves more
Quoted from Roostking:Put the bong down.
Quoted from Rarehero:Horrible liars who have stolen money from customers & sold their games from under them to unethical vultures...you think these are people who worry about "peace of mind"? C'mon. We're talking about criminals, here.
Can I ask why this is modded for an eject when about 80 percent true ? Which mod? Where is mod from? Cheers
Quoted from o-din:My guess is he has said basically the same thing over and over again and it falls into the "broken record" category. And has already been warned. Perhaps more than once.
By that reasoning about 50% of the people on here should have dissapeared
Quoted from o-din:To be fair, before they take serious action, usually the moderators give you plenty of good warning. The more warnings you get, the less leeway they give you.
It must be a thankless job.
Its who they are giving the warning too and who they are not that makes me pause, however I do understand your explanation.
Quoted from fosaisu:How’s he going to get $30k if he unboxes it?
Not his
Just as suspected there was no judgement from the courts this was a deal struck between ARA and DP. This is why the EAs will receive nothing from what they rightfully should have owned. It's too bad this is in a land where no one had the ability to hold DP to the fire. Very sad. As suspected not even one thought of numbers or a plan or investor to be able to get EAs their games
Quoted from pinballslave:Is there no possibility that DP will achieve what they plan and get back in the black and start making the EA games from the profit they make on the games when they get back into production?
No
When the fuck is Barry gonna come clean instead of these bullshit news letters that obviously dont show us what we deserve to know or what or who he has and a plan forward? NO! We get only what he wants us to know for his own agenda. Yet he ran the company into the ground. Its bullshit utter bullshit
3 weeks later
Quoted from Dkjimbo:So how long is the CoinTaker list currently of people lined up ready to pay the $12.5k as these machines get made (assuming they actually get made)?
I have to imagine that CoinTaker is in constant contact with DP as the length of this "list" will serve as a barometer of actual interest and viability of continuing the business, yes?
If the list is 25 people long, this project is DOA. If the list is 500 people long, DP should be looking for contract manufacturer to do the work for them and expedite before people change their minds.
I don't know, just listening to the flipper on Kaneda's podcast, and he said not one but at least two people dropped out when it came time to actually cough up the 12,500.00 for one of the recent 40 games. By that math I would be looking for at least 1500 orders before even thinking about a contract manufacture!
11 months later
1 month later
Quoted from okgrak:Same guy trying to sell you a Stranger Things......
Ahh, he is a distributor for Stern? You cant even put the two in the same category! Once code is tweaked on this thing I think it is up there with the best williams' Ballys' machines of all time and putting that Stranger Things in the same category?
7 months later
2 months later
Quoted from Rensh:Not all numbers are taken anymore. Remember when Phil did the refund? Not everybody re-entered so there are gaps.
69 is next. That’s one serial number I would like to have
Would love an updated list to see where the EA's are at Rensh? Noting which numbers are no longer valid going forward would also help to make a few calcs to see how long we have to wait if we are back to one in three? Was suppose to be this summer for me however the snails pace for EA's has obviously blown that one out the door! This game with new code and code to follow is now one of my favs and hope Barry will keep designing as this is one of the best layouts in years!
8 months later
2 months later
3 months later
Quoted from Rensh:94 and 96 are on the line now
Gonna hit the triple digits and soon!
Quoted from Rensh:Stable but at a to slow pace to DP liking.
Start of 2023 new people will start on the assemblyline so increasing the workforce . If supply of parts remains stable pace should go up
Still aligned with my math and 114 should be about 6 months away depending on holidays for Dutch pinball!
1 month later
Rensh perhaps you can give us the numbers on line for the EAs since its Christmas and all! Want to see if my calendar is still on track, or Dutch has sped up or slowed down on tha achievers and their games Merry Christmas all !
3 weeks later
Quoted from pascal-pinball:My EA#111 Will be ready next week.
Oh my if this is true then Barry has really put the pedal to the medal for the early achievers!
1 month later
10 months later
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