(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

26 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #2465 Tips on removing the upper playfield Posted by sd_tom (2 years ago)

Post #2474 Photo of the updated divertor Posted by sd_tom (2 years ago)

Post #2477 Photos of new tilt graphics side art for TBL Posted by jGraffix (2 years ago)

Post #2506 Factory visit update! Posted by rubberducks (2 years ago)

Post #2926 DP's response to their issue with ARA and game manufacturing. Posted by JimB (2 years ago)

Post #2971 pinghetto contacts ARA for information regarding the delays Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #2973 pinghetto information regarding contacting ARA Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #3056 ARA's email response about DP's claims. Posted by CrazyLevi (2 years ago)

Post #3483 Jaap from Dutch Pinball counters the ARA story. Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3491 ARA counters the Jaap counter to ARA's previous communication! Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3650 Report from a dinner with Barry of Dutch Pinball. Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #3951 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #4259 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #5004 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5229 DP update about an alternative manufacturer Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5461 Details on June 19th DP Livestream Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #6420 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by KoenHeltzel (1 year ago)

Post #6684 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Concretehardt (1 year ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#1481 3 years ago

Everytime I see some new footage with new code implemented I'm impressed how well all the various elements have been integrated into this game. If games could be ranked on best theme integration TBL will be a 10 out of 10 in my book.

1 week later
#1581 3 years ago
Quoted from JustLikeMe:

I uploaded another video overnight

Thanks for the video. Do I spot a scoring issue right at the beginning? You make the skill shot and the score stays at 10 points...

3 weeks later
1 month later
#1991 3 years ago

Since yesterday the TBL game that is out on test in Utrecht, The Netherlands was updated with new code. I also did a great interview of almost 2 hours with both Jaap and Barry. That should be in the upcoming 4th issue of Pinball Magazine.

2 weeks later
#2102 3 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

We combined this visit with an interview session with Jonathan Joosten (who lives right around the corner of Grand Café Lebowski) for Pinball Magazine. We talked about our project for almost 3 hours and realized how special this rollercoaster project has been until now. Jonathan will publish the interview in the next edition of Pinball Magazine which will be presented at Expo in Chicago (October 12-16).

Thanks to Dutch Pinball for mentioning their interview in the upcoming 4th issue of Pinball Magazine. The aim is to have the magazine available at Pinball Expo, but there's still a lot of work to be done. Either way the article should be a fun read and share some interesting behind the scenes stories.

4 weeks later
#2288 3 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

Did DP plan a limited production? I don't understand why it is not possible to order anymore. This is a strange financial strategy.

Never mind, many great pinballs are coming.

Pinball Magazine No. 4 will feature a 17-page interview with Jaap and Barry on the development of TBL. In that interview they explain why they stopped taking preorders. They also explain that by the time they expect to finish building the first 300 games they will have a European distributor and they will take new orders again. Either way you would have to wait in line like everybody else, so just put your money aside and order the game in a few months.

4 months later
#3285 2 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Didn't they say in Pinball Magazine No. 4 that DP and ARA are partners now?

That interview dates back to September if I recall correctly. I think the "partnering" was mostly applicable to the development of parts like PCBs and other parts that ARA develops inhouse. The entire interview in PM04 illustrates the making of the game up to the point where the relation between ARA and DP started to turn sour. At the end of the interview it already becomes clear that DP was looking for ways to speed up the production, but ARA wasn't very collaborative on that front.

For whatever it's worth, being from The Netherlands, somewhat familiar with how our court system works and how "the Dutch" reason, I would expect DP to have the best chances if this would go to court. It would however benefit all parties involved if ARA and DP would be able to get back around the table and find a workable solution for this situation.

1 week later
#3546 2 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

Mine was was even closer, likely 150 miles to making home when the truck took a dump

Ouch. Call me an optimist but looks like a new cabinet could still save this game. Maybe some additional parts to fix the bowling alley and other damaged parts under the playfield.

10
#3572 2 years ago
Quoted from karl:

I am only curious why none of the Dutch are any worried about the situation.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm confident DP will find a solution for this situation.

2 weeks later
17
#3783 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Pinball licenses last 3 years. 3 years is up. Can't imagine Universal would renew it after how things have gone...

Pinball licenses last whatever you negotiate. Just because Stern usually goes for a 3-year deal doesn't mean DP did. Aside from that you can always negotiate extensions and renewals. Shouldn't be a big deal at all, especially not when the right people negotiate that (if needed in the first place).

Quoted from Rarehero:

I wonder if Universal knows how their license is being handled at the moment. Do they know of the hostage games and this whole situation?

The license isn't treated in any way. Just because you're waiting for your game (as am I) doesn't affect the license at all. Only your perception of certain aspects.

Quoted from Rarehero:

I'm biting my tongue until after Texas - if I don't like what Jaap has to say, I'll be contacting the licensing people at Universal the following week.

Yeah, that's what we need. Turn a movie studio against DP so not only you but everybody else won't get their game. Fuck it up for everybody, because you may not like what Jaap has to say. Very undudelike. Plus your game is already build. Whenever this goes to court chances are those games will be ordered to be delivered straight away, so you'll get yours in time. But you can still fuck it up for those who's game still has to be build. So how will your actions benefit the process? And if your actions result in the rest of the games not being build, how do you think I (and others) will appreciate that?

Here's what I suggest: DP are working on a solution. Let them handle it, they are plenty capable to do so. It may not go as fast as you like, as there are now lawyers involved who prefer to stretch things as long as they can in order to write more hours. Last thing this situation needs is people assuming thing ruining it for everybody else. Most startup companies need 4-5 years to deliver their first game. DP was already quicker with a quality product. So there's a new bump in the road. Too bad, but once you get your game you don't care anymore. Then it was just part of the waiting process and all water under the bridge. I waited years for my BBB. Once I got it I didn't look back, I just enjoyed the game.

#3786 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

They need to prove this.

No they don't. You expect them to show you the contract? All they need to do is deliver you your game or refund you. Delivering you your game is just a matter of time as it is already build, but I rather see them refund you. Heck, I'll take your number in line over my own, so I get my game sooner and someone else can move up a spot.

Quoted from Rarehero:

Blame the victims, not the source of the problems.

Just be cause you feel you're a "victim" doesn't mean that entitles you to cause more problems and blow it up for everybody. You do that you're clearly a problem for everyone in line behind you. Got a text from both Barry and Jaap this morning saying that the license has not expired, so that's not even an issue. Yet you're trying to create one based on incorrect assumptions and apparently unreliable sources. Over the line! Since you're so confident: where is your proof that the license expired? You have copies of contracts? If you don't I suggest you sit back, relax and stop stirring up a pot for no reason other than your own insecurity about the situation.

Quoted from Rarehero:

Pinball sucks.

So why are hanging out here so much?

1 week later
20
#4275 2 years ago

In the other thread I mentioned I contacted ARA earlier today as my name came up as a potential mediator. Not sure whether I want to be that, and don't think I accepted that role, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to hear ARA's side of the story. Well, I was asked to call again next week as the person I should be talking to is out of his office all week. So I'll call again next week. Apparently patience is key

36
#4385 2 years ago

I was just informed that ARA fired their Managing Director, who I was actually supposed to talk to next week. This could actually be a good thing for TBL as things now may move forward. It could also indicate the problem was at ARA and not at DP. Will post more news when I have any.

#4391 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

You beat me to it
The above is correct. The manager called Rene was fired on the spot and this was yesterday publically announced in the canteen in front of all the employees by 2 commissioners from ARA holding
Firing on the spot is very unusual in NL and only done in cases like theft, sexual misabuse or gross mismanagement. I suspect the latter is the case.
This opens possibilities for sure and deserves a White Russian to celebrate this. Let's all take a stand now in wait what kind of news this brings next week or the week after

Thanks for the additional info.

1 month later
#4699 2 years ago

Just checked Koen's LinkedIn page and it looks like he started with a new job last month. Good for him. I don't think DP had enough for him to work on fulltime at the moment, so I don't see a problem. TBL code can also be finished by him as a freelancer. Congrats on his new job!

2 weeks later
10
#4822 2 years ago

1. While I applaud DP for sending out more NSLs I really wish they would put more thought into what they communicate. The most recent NSL reveals one condition they have to take into consideration, but none of on this forum (including me) know the other conditions. So there no way of judging whether giving ARA a 51% share in the company is a good thing or not for DP. What DP's intention with this NSL was, was to inform us buyers that ARA is playing hard ball and difficult decisions have to be made, which takes time.

2. Forget the assumption that DP is broke. I have no reason to even assume that and nobody who suggested they are have any form of proof even remotely indicating that. The only reason they refused to pay ARA in the first place was because ARA raised the prices of the games due to poor project management and overpaying for parts on their end. In the decision not to pay ARA were principles involved, which is completely unrelated to whether DP could pay them.

3. Let's take a look at this from a different perspective: Why would ARA be interested in 51% of a broke company? Because DP isn't broke. ARA did the math and they like what's in it for them. Either they raise the price per game DP has to pay them (which ARA can decide on once they own 51% of the company), or they take a cut of DP's profit (which is what they will do if they own 51% of the company), or maybe even both. In case of the latter the profit will be less, but the money still comes in via what DP pays ARA extra per game. If ARA gets 51% of DP the question then is: will Jaap and Barry be comfortable working for ARA? Will there be enough in it for them? That's a question only they can answer. One can also wonder what Barry and Jaap will be doing once ARA owns 51% of DP. Keep in mind that ARA doesn't have any experience in selling pinball games. The collectors market they may be able to sell some games to, but the operators market requires a different approach. Being able to make games doesn't mean you're able to sell them in the qualtities you want them to sell.

So is there any good news? Actually yes. The fact that ARA is playing hard ball to take control of DP indicates the company could do very well once they start making games again. The other reason they may be playing hard ball is that ARA may think they have leverage over DP because they think they are the only ones who can build these games. So that's what Barry and Jaap are dealing with and that's why these negotiations take time. You don't want them to make a wrong decision by rushing things, so I suggest to let them take their time to give every option plenty of thought. It would also be incredibly short-sighted to just think about getting your game. It's about more than that. DP have shown they can design a kick ass game and it would improve the pinball landscape a lot if they would keep on doing so. That may only happen if there's enough in it for them. If there is, teaming with ARA may be a brilliant move, so I can only hope ARA will offer DP some very good prospects for the future – which should go a lot further than TBL.

2 weeks later
-12
#5167 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

The saddest thing about this whole debacle is that they weren't liars.

They still aren't. Just because you (and others) don't have all the inside info, and rather go by assumptions and speculations, doesn't mean DP are lying. DP share what they can, but ARA is reading Pinside too and why would DP let them look into their cards? Would you?

So I noticed you offered your game for sale. If Pinside was a stock market the value of TBL would have dropped significantly due to all the speculation and assumptions in this thread. That's all fine, but it doesn't make any sense that you're trying to sell your spot for $8500. I get that you want your money back. It's fine that's you're willing to get out and sell your spot, but the 8500 number is way off. Partly due to your own participation in this thread the value of delivered games on the Pinside market may have gone up, but the value of games being held hostage, or not even build, on the Pinside market simply dropped as they may never be released or build. That's simply how stockmarkets work. DP also indicated they aren't refunding anyone once production started and parts had to be bought. No exceptions for anyone, including you, which actually seems fair. It woudn't be fair if they would refund you, but no-one else.

So that $8500 game you bought simply isn't worth $8500 at the moment. So what is it worth? Well, that just depends on how much people are willing to pay for an uncertainty. If you want to speculate, that's what this is. I'm willing to offer you $3000 USD for your game. If it ever gets released, it goes straight to me. If it doesn't, I lost 3K. Yes, that means you lose $5500, but at least you get some of your money back. It will be my risk whether your game will be released or not, but as things stand right now that game doesn't appear to be moving anytime soon. So you can take 3K now, leave the conversation and start living a happy life, or stay in which isn't likely to make you (and others) very happy. PM me if interested. We'll draw up some paperwork, I'll send you a paypal payment and off you go.

-17
#5171 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

(contents edited by Mod team)
You're friends with Barry & Jaap, you probably DO have the inside info, while giving US shit for speculating...what else can we do when we're dealing with this mess!?!?! For all we know, you know things are about to get resolved and you're trying to get my game on the cheap. If you really want my game, give $8500 to Barry and Jaap, then they can formally issue me a refund and give you my game.
Stop lashing out on fucked over customers. All responsibility lies with those who sold us a game and haven't delivered.

what else you can do? there's nothing you can do that will solve the situation, so you might as well do nothing, sit back and wait for DP to work out a solution.

-7
#5174 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I can call you out on your fuckery, is what I can do. Now go away unless you care to share the information about DP/ARA you most likely know.

Again assumptions. I know as much as you. Heck, you probably know even more since you're talking to Barry more often than I do. While that should give you all the confidence, yet here you are stirring up a mess.

#5200 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Trying to figure out why Unigroove would want to risk losing the good will that he's built with his magazine by appearing to be a DP apologist/ sycophant.

Well, I'm not looking to risk that. I'm just trying to look at the situation with some common sense, although it appears this may be the wrong place for that There's no point in assuming and speculating as it literaly won't do anything for you, except maybe raise your bloodpressure. Seriously, can anyone name a good example of a situation where they didn't have any control over, yet stirring up a pot on a public forum (that the people in charge of the situation aren't even looking at) solved everything?

Assuming and speculating will not get games made any sooner. So why bother? The only people who can work on a solution are Barry and Jaap. As far as I can tell they are trying to the best of their capabilities to find a solution to get games build, as they have mentioned before. It may not go as fast as you like, but it won't go any faster by speculating, or getting upset about not getting a refund. So what's the point? It's like being stuck in traffic. You can go crazy all you want in your car, but does that help moving the traffic any faster? Or do you just go along with the flow? I prefer to go with the flow.

I get that some people are dissapointed. I've been supporting DP since day 1. They were a fresh breeze in the industry. The game they designed kicks ass. Guess what: I have a game on order that hasn't even been build, so I'm in the same boat as the other Achievers. Sure I wonder whether things will work out, and I certainly hope they do, but whether they do or don't is not in my hands.

Have to agree with EternalLife. Based on what I know I still find it odd all the anger seems to be pointed at DP, who are trying to find a solution, while ARA are the ones to blame for the current mess. It's like hitting the mechanic working on your car with a bat to get him to hurry up. Obviously that's not helping. Sure I understand the reasoning that we bought a product from DP, not ARA, but if you know DP is trying their best and ARA hasn't been very cooperative, does it make sense to bash DP while they are trying to find a solution?

Let's just see if this week's newsletter will bring some news.

#5202 2 years ago
Quoted from rvdv:

Mag je goederen van je klant achterhouden totdat hij betaalt?
29 september 2015
Elke ondernemer heeft wel eens te maken met wanbetaling. Dat is frustrerend: jij hebt je diensten geleverd of reeds werk verzet, de klant betaalt uiteindelijk niet. Soms heb je echter nog eigendommen van de klant in je bezit, om welke reden dan ook. Logischerwijs denk je dan direct: ‘Hij krijgt niets terug, totdat hij betaald heeft.’
De vraag in dit artikel is dan ook: mag je als ondernemer de goederen van je klant achterhouden totdat de klant betaald heeft? Kan de klant zich op het standpunt stellen dat hij een eigendomsrecht heeft en dat hij op basis daarvan zijn spullen terug moet krijgen?
Opschorting
Dit artikel is vooral van belang voor ondernemers die goederen van hun klant ‘onder zich’ hebben. Denk aan de fietsenmaker die de fiets van een klant in zijn werkplaats heeft staan. Denk aan de stomerij die nog kleren van een klant heeft liggen. Het betreft dus geen goederen die nog aan de klant moeten worden geleverd, al gaat dit gedeelte over opschorting daar ook voor op.
Zodra er sprake is van het niet nakomen van verplichtingen door de klant, kun je als ondernemer ervoor kiezen om je verplichtingen op te schorten. Je komt dan pas je verplichtingen na zodra de klant het ook heeft gedaan. Dat kan ook indien je goede reden hebt om aan te nemen dat de klant zijn verplichtingen niet zal nakomen (maar er dus nog geen sprake is van een tekortkoming).
Het is van belang om je als ondernemer te realiseren dat er enkele uitzonderingen op deze mogelijkheid van opschorting bestaan. Twijfel je aan de toepasselijkheid van deze regels, dan is het verstandig om een jurist te raadplegen.
Retentierecht
Hoe zit het dan met de klant die niet betaalt, maar zich beroept op zijn eigendomsrecht? Hij wil zijn fiets of zijn versgestoomde broek terug. Kan hij zich beroepen op het eigendomsrecht?
Het antwoord is (uiteraard) ontkennend. Met een beroep op het zogenaamde retentierecht, kun je als ondernemer ook een beroep op het eigendomsrecht laten afketsen. Kortom: eerst betalen, daarna pas afgifte van de zaak die je nog moet teruggeven.
Mocht je kosten hebben moeten maken om de zaak te behouden (je hebt bijvoorbeeld een garagebox moeten huren of je hebt onderhoudswerkzaamheden moeten doen om de zaak in goede staat te houden), dan kun je verwachten dat die kosten óók eerst betaald worden voordat je tot teruggave overgaat.
Daarnaast moet je opletten dat je het retentierecht op tijd inroept: geef je de goederen alvast terug en beroep je je dan nog op je rententierecht, dan ben je te laat. Het recht is namelijk geëindigd op het moment van teruggave, zelfs als de klant nog niet heeft betaald.
Mag je de goederen houden als de klant blijft weigeren te betalen?
Wanneer de klant zelfs na een aantal aanmaningen niet bereid blijkt om de rekening te betalen, kun je niet zomaar besluiten om de goederen te houden of te verkopen. Je zult dan de juridisch juiste weg moeten bewandelen.
Als er totaal niet wordt meegewerkt, zal dat een gang naar de rechter betekenen. Daar zal waarschijnlijk je beste keuze het vorderen van nakoming van de overeenkomst zijn (dus betaling van de overeengekomen prijs). Pas daarna kan het tot een verkoop van de achtergehouden goederen komen.
Kortom
Betaalt je klant niet? Houd dan de zaken die je nog van hem hebt achter totdat hij wel heeft betaald. Betaalt hij nog steeds niet? Dan moet je naar de rechter.
Zit je met een probleem waar je zelf niet uitkomt? Laat het ons weten, dan bekijken wij wat we voor je kunnen doen.
Vermoeden dat klant niet zal betalen, wat nu?
Vermoeden dat klant niet zal betalen, wat nu?
27 december 2016
In "Ondernemingsrecht"
Klant betaalt niet: hoe zit het met incassokosten?
Klant betaalt niet: hoe zit het met incassokosten?
5 april 2016
In "Ondernemingsrecht"
Faillissement van klant aanvragen om factuur te incasseren?
Faillissement van klant aanvragen om factuur te incasseren?
11 april 2017
In "Beslag"
Juridische hulp nodig?
NEEM CONTACT OP
Auteur
mr. B.G.N. (Bart) Gubbels - Advocaat
ondernemingsrecht, arbeidsrecht, contractenrecht
b.g.n.gubbels@
Time to contact the lawyers !!
( google translate the main text)

Interessant. Maar hoe zit het als je als klant (DP) een product besteld bij een fabrikant (ARA), een prijs overeenkomt en de fabrikant ineens meer geld wil?

#5213 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Unigroove - just so we all know we are the same footing. Would you mind sharing what you have paid thus far for your TBL preorder that you have not received yet?

paid in full, ordered right after Expo where the game was shown (2014?)

#5215 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

So, paid in full at 8500 USD, correct?

Yes, except I paid in Euro at the current exchange rate at the time.

#5221 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

You don't get it. Achievers do not have any relationship with ARA. They sent their money to DP with the promise that DP would deliver a game in return. DP has failed to do that, and has blamed ARA, who in turn has blamed DP, so who are the customers to believe? Fact is they shouldn't have to believe either. DP owes them a game or refund, plain and simple. The buck stops with DP, and when DP basically says they're doing nothing, then folks like Greg will do whatever it takes to shake a refund out of the tree, even it it means going to the licensee and pulling some strings.
Again, ARA owes the Achievers nothing. This is 100% DP's mess to fix. They should be selling everything they own to make this right, or they should declare bankruptcy and allow the Achievers to regain at least some of their money back when assets are sold. They should NOT string people along with bullshit statements, which is what they've been doing for the past few months. I am quite disappointed you are trying to slough off responsibility to a party that no Achiever has anything to do with. If DP thinks they're so right, they need to take ARA to court as soon as possible and fix the situation THEY created with THEIR contractor.

I understand what you're saying. However, as Achievers according to you only have a relation with DP, then DP should just inform them about the progress of the production. No need to get into detail on what is going on behind the scenes. A simple "We had a problem with our contract manufacturer and are now moving our production to a new manufacturer. This will cause a delay of currently unknown length to the delivery of your game, but we're doing everything we can to ship you your game as soon as possible." would then be enough. Right?

2 months later
18
#5985 2 years ago

Talked to Jaap this morning and asked about them being sued by ARA, as is suggested a few posts earlier in this thread. That was news to him. He hadn't heard from ARA since April and they haven't been sued either.

2 months later
#6489 1 year ago

I played the Xytech prototype on Sunday morning and I think it was solid built and played smooth. The Donny loop when shot from the left resulted in several sdtm drains, but it seemed to me that could be fixed with bending the metal ball guide at the right side end. I've played the game on a test location quite a bit and the Xytech game seemed to be working more correctly. I didn't notice any inconsistencies during gameplay. So far so good

Jaap did a seminar on Sunday afternoon. Hopefully video will be available soon. Getting TBL made is priority #1 for them.

#6491 1 year ago

In the Who's Working On What section on the Pinball Magazine website I added a summary of the Dutch Pinball seminar with a few corrections that Jaap just told me over the phone: http://www.pinball-magazine.com/?page_id=34. The TBL details can be found in the notes for November 13.

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