This delay is good for some of us as I've been purchasing a lot of pins recently but didn't have to tell my wife about The Big Lebowski just yet. Unfortunately we were watching the movie a couple nights ago and I'd had a few too many white russians and I blurted out "I can't wait for my Big Lebowski pinball!" Oops.
Quoted from Who-Dey:
She probably won't really sh*t her pants until you tell her the price.
True. It will be my most expensive pin as I'll be paying $10,000.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Well, the delay is no fun for those of us who paid in 2014.
I can even imagine. I just put $1000 down Oct 2016.
If I don't have the game by June (the latest date I was originally told) I'll probably cancel my order and consider a HUO in the future.
Does anybody know if this is really going to be limited to a run of 300? I am sure DP would like to make more but I thought I read the licensing only covers that many.
Quoted from chuckwurt:
I wasn't joking about the unlimited run. I was joking about them being responsive. Haha
I was picking up the sarcasm you were putting down. I just played along. No emails were sent. I would actually hope this was limited to 300 as owning a really rare pin would be cool and better justify the large price tag.
This really sucks for you guys that are out $8500 and have been waiting for years. I have a $1000 deposit (on a $10000 game) that I sent 2 months ago and I plan to get it back. This sounds pretty bad. If they end up making great games and provide good support for them (like JJP), I'll buy a used one, even if it costs me more in the end, it isn't worth the gamble to stay in this game. I hope you guys that have so much invested in this get what you're owed.
Quoted from RobT:
I wonder if Cointaker is in a position to give refunds to everyone who has a deposit with them? In other words, is Cointaker holding on to those deposits, or were they forwarded to DP?
I emailed Tommy at Nitro and he is sending my deposit back. I know I could get it back any time but I honestly don't want the game anymore. As awesome as it looks, I don't want to be dealing with this poor communication during the inevitable issues after getting my game. I also don't want to have a game with so few examples and from a defunct company.
Quoted from kidchrisso:
No thanks...I want to deal with a US company that has a refundable deposit.
The first part does not describe Nitro (in Canada) but it is a refundable deposit (they refunded mine today). Plus, Tommy is way faster at responding to emails than Melissa at Cointaker in my experience.
Quoted from cooked71:
Quality wise id have to agree. Now if they'd make a regular body, fast playing game with a theme I like - take my $.
I prefer widebody games and love their first two themes! They also have excellent support.
If they made a Justice League or Superman theme, I'd buy two of the top model.
Quoted from Rensh:
Yes, the PCB lie was, allthough I understand it, a bad move. But ARA is here suddenly asking more money. DP is not in the wrong in that point. DP wanted to avoid hysteria and did a white lie on the PCB. Yes, looking back wrong wrong idea. I suspect they thought ARA would come to their senses quickly as their is a solid contract in place and everything could go back to normal quickly.
Technically it was a board issue; i.e. we can't get our boards from ARA without paying them more money.
Quoted from Cenobyte:
Not sure which games you are referring to, but JJP did not build games that are in ANY top 10, not on Pinside, not on IPDB, except for your personal top 10 apparently. And to be fair: despite the fact I have a WOZ myself and I consider it the most beautiful pin ever built, I do not consider it top 10 material because of the gameplay. And The Hobbit, well, that lacks gameplay and is less beautiful than WOZ, so that's not even top 50 material IMHO...
I am not saying JJP is a fiasco, I am saying that they barely made it. They were very close to a fiasco. If they hadn't found an invester, all Hobbits would have probably ended up like Jpop's pinballs: just an imagination. And again there would be a lot of money vaporized... Don't get me wrong: I am VERY happy that did not happen, because IMO there are too many of these fiasco's already going down.
And about DP telling their white lie about the board problem: I can understand their decision to do so. If they would have told the truth, this thread would even be longer, discussing bankruptcy and money problems. Would that have been better?
The top 100 on pinside is hardly objective. It is created by a bunch of dudes with huge nostalgia for 90's B/W games and a large portion of pinsiders aggressively protect those games. WOZ is a top 5 game IMO but nostalgia is hard to beat.
Quoted from highdef:
Someone mentioned they're still waiting on a bowling mech replacement. I hope this isn't an indication of the challenges we will face in the future with any "not-off-the-shelf" replacement parts. Communication from DP is already bad enough.
This is why I canceled my deposit spot. I could have waited another 2 years (or never) or whatever it will now take to get those near #300 (as I was), I didn't need the $1000 and I know I could have gotten my deposit back at any time. But...there were a lot of complaints of issues with the machines and very poor communication from DP that made me decide that I didn't even want the game anymore, despite it being a dream theme and an excellent pin overall.
I don't understand the early achievers that aren't more upset with DP. You didn't give $8500 to ARA or Cointaker, you gave that money to DP 3+? years ago and they have become very deceptive and/or silent. The people that have their games aren't receiving good support. The people that don't have their games aren't getting proper information. Even if DP is at zero fault--that seems doubtful by their behavior--they still owe you EAs an explanation. Why in the hell do you have to go to TPF or come here to see what is said? They say "there isn't any information to give". That reads "there isn't any information we want you to hear" to me. I have a feeling that you will probably glean more useful information from reading some key posts in this thread than you will from listening to Jaap's "update". I hope nobody has their hopes up too much or they should be prepared to be let down; though you should be used to that by now. I'm so sorry that so many of you are going through this.
Quoted from Rarehero:
I'm absolutely upset. But what am I supposed to do? I don't want to give myself ulcers over it. Suggestions about how to properly be upset?
Quoted from Superchicken:
You are correct sir, you do not understand...#106.
I apologize for the way my post comes across now that I read it again. I didn't intend to criticize or blame the EAs. I am pissed at DP and I just had a preorder which has now been canceled. I guess I meant to say that I can't imagine how upset I'd be if I were one of you. I really hope there is a satisfactory resolution to this whole mess for you guys.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:
noo! cmon I never said that or wish for that. I want all dudes to get their machines, it just doesnt make any difference whether you come up with ''good ideas'' or not
You can help at least one Achiever relax! Yes you! Just send them your machine and take their waiting spot. The other benefit of this is that you won't be worrying about complete code anymore. Two birds, right?
I decided to jump back in with a deposit at Nitro Amusements. They may still have spots if anyone else is interested. There really isn't a risk this way so I'm not saying there is a comparison with you EAs; it's just somebody else holding onto my $1000. I'm really hoping to see this happen as I'd love to own this game. Thank you so much to everyone that has made phone calls, sent emails and attending Jaap's talk at TPF to keep us all informed.
Actually there is only one group: 100% of EAs and those with deposits down want their TBL ASAP and would like to see DP build more machines as long as it is not at the expense of the first goal. It appears DP cares more about their pride than their integrity. ARA/Nivoge has them by the pinballs and they are clearly desperate and acting foolishly.
Quoted from Nikonokin:
(if DP would start a legal procedure against ARA for breach of contract, the odds that a judge will rule in favor of DP is very likely!)
So why wasn't this slam dunk of a procedure already started? Wait. Lawyers cost money? Where's the money, Lebowski? Answer: they don't have any. They spent it on living expenses, traveling and "celebrating" the last 3 years. With the pathetic BoP 2.5 and multiple other tell tale signs, I am not sure how anyone believes that DP is anything but completely broke.
Quoted from Nikonokin:
When giving Nivoge 51% of the shares we would ‘reward’ ARA’s poor performance and breach of contract.
51% of nussing is still nussing.
I just have a deposit with Nitro so I don't really have a horse in this race. I feel terrible for the EAs whom this most recent update is likely a $8500+ "statement" for. DP clearly thought they had a stronger position in these negotiations than they did.
Quoted from bounoun:
this is what i find strange in this whole situation. DP claims again and agian that ARA is the one screwing them over and breaching the contract.
so why not start the law suit already ?
Quoted from Biv:
A lawsuit would mean a stall of any activity for at least two or more years.
So no pins whatsoever to anyone and surely no Lebowski's built by any other manufacturer.
...and 99% chance they cannot afford it.
Quoted from highdef:
Someone is going to repost the hosting details, so I fear that it will become a public forum with non-vested parties (much like this thread).
Even as someone with a deposit, I think this should be only for the people with $8500+ invested, no game and no easy option for refund. Please nobody re-post the details. I trust you EAs to represent everyone that would like to see these games finished.
I have a very late number, probably near 300, and I have a $1000 deposit with Nitro for a $10,000 final price. FYI
Quoted from Dkjimbo:
on the flip side, an owner today could take my 11k now....or if things work out and all games get shipped and the market is softer since 300+ are on the market than they can only sell for 9k(ish)...so taking my 11k(ish) now is the right move....this is why the whole thing is such a dumb gamble with the current DP situation. with any other RARE high end pin all of the details are known...Magic Girl, Big Bang Bar, KingPin...whatever...theres no more risk of circumstantial changes...what is...is.....with TBL, it could all change at a moments notice which is why the crazy sales price marketplace ads are stupid...and people trying to sell a "spot" in line for a prepaid achiever is a big risk...I mean really, how much money are any one of us willing to just flush down a toilet for a gamble....an 8.5k paid in full achiever spot at this moment is in my opinion worth about $2500 cash. circumstances look TERRIBLE...all signs point to total loss. if this all works out miraculously then ok, you've got a game worth 8500+...if it stays the course...its worth ZERO. the paid in full spots are not worth anywhere near the actual paid value at this point given what we all know...but I guess it could change Monday...if DP are actually honest and forthcoming...
So you undervalue EA's spots because of the low chance that more games are finished and also undervalue the games people have in hand because of the high chance of more games being finished? Got it.
If all 300 games get finished, the value will almost certainly be higher than $9k. Many people (me) are willing to pay $10k for one and 300 is still a rare game and it may take a slight dip in value initially but will then climb, climb, climb.
I think an in-hand game is worth around $15k right now, give or take $1000. An EA spot on a game in the 50s or so and likely completed and sitting at ARA is probably worth around $7k, maybe $8k. It seems pretty likely that they will get their games but the probable extended wait and possibility of never getting the game lowers the value and the higher the number, the lower it gets as we don't know exactly how many are finished; 40 at the most or 10 at the least. EA spots above 80-90 are worth very little at this point, probably $2k-$4k range, and are dropping by the day as far as I can tell.
This is all based on what I'd be willing to pay as a guy with deep pockets and a strong desire to have this game, but I also have a lot of patience.
If someone wants to sell their in-hand TBL for $14,500, PM me.
You don't need to speculate to see how bad this situation is. They are talking about getting more money to build machines that are already paid for in full. They need to have enough money to build those at least to not be completely fucked.
DP: We'd like to borrow some money to build pinball machines!
Bank: And how much do you expect to profit from each machine once built?
DP: Nothing on the first 150 units.
Now for some speculation:
Per the "live broadcast" (Why make it live when questions cannot be asked in real time?) it sounds like ARA has not been paid for the completed machines or parts. It seems very plausible to me that DP doesn't have enough money to pay for the completed machines and the to-be-completed machines from the parts ARA has. It sounds like they need ARA to float them the machines so they can send them out on the promise that they will pay them from the profits realized from the 100 or so non-achiever games that were sold for $10,000 each. ARA must not think these numbers look good.
Also, do they really think they can go to another CM and leave ARA with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of parts and machines that they cannot sell? This seems to be a weak threat to get ARA to budge and I doubt it will work.
And to anyone saying they aren't broke: my definition of broke is owing more than you have. With the BoP 2.5 attempt, talk of getting more money and multiple other signs I'd bet my bottom dollar that DP fits this definition of broke.
This is another story of sad failure in the boutique pinball world where a few people made out like bandits with super-rare games, DP never gets to make another machine again and a few dozen people get screwed out of $8500. Count on it. I don't see how this goes any other way. I don't think DP are bad guys, they are just bad businessmen and were foolish with spending your money.
Quoted from foxtj24:
about 50 people fully paid and have the machine. About 140 of us are fully paid without receiving anything. Alot more then a few dozen, 140 at risk of losing $8500. It's worse then you thought.
I was aware of the numbers. I should have written "dozens of" instead of "a few dozen".
As I am pretty sure that I am somewhere between #290 and #300... I approve of this message. I have $10,000 waiting to help you build the rest of those games, DP.
Quoted from FlipperFreak:
Just to be very clear, NITRO has only ever accepted deposits on TBL. We've also refunded every customer immediately when a request has been made. Being pinheads ourselves, we understand everyone's frustration. We DO NOT and WILL NOT accept payment in full without games shipping. Even with Heighway.... although all of our deposits had been sent to Andrew... we still refunded customers when asked, and will continue to do so.
I had a deposit with Nitro (great to work with) and then backed out and got my deposit back when things looked grim. As they started to look better I sent my deposit back in. I would recommend Nitro/Tommy without reservation.
I was in with Nitro about a year ago and then got out about 8 months ago and then went back in about 4 months ago. I have a $1000 deposit and the total cost is $10,000. I believe I was like 297 the first time, I don't know what number I am now. I'm ready to send my check when Tommy tells me my game is there!
There is very little risk reserving a spot right now and if they opened up another 100 pre-orders, I think they could probably fund the whole thing better. While I understand EAs being upset about getting their games last when they paid first, there may be some kinks that need to be worked out and they should get more polished and complete games when they do.
Quoted from colonel_caverne:
It is not cheaper to build in China?
I was on the fence to buy one if price were in relation with the market but if it is 10k€ I am out for sure.
That's actually $10,000 USD so I don't know what the Euro price would be. I'm paying $9500 for my JJPOTC LE and this is a far more limited product and a dream theme for me so it's worth it.
As a $1000 down for $10,000 full price person, I am slightly concerned for an "actually it's going to be $12,000 if you want the game" surprise.
I don't care if DP feels there is "nothing to report". This silence just makes it seem like they are avoiding telling us bad news. If there is truly "nothing to report" then nothing is happening. Otherwise at least give the EAs something. Even "waiting on parts", "testing and making notes", "trying to get pre-orders to fund the whole thing", "setting up the factory space to begin mass production", "working out litigation with ARA" or "spending EA money to eat" is something. We want to know everything. No detail is too boring for us. So unless DP is truly doing nothing that has to do with TBL, there is no reason to not give a 5 minute weekly update. They at least owe that to the people that have waited years after giving up thousands of dollars.
Why in the hell isn't someone from DP on this forum and paying attention to this topic?
I hadn't been to Pinside for a week and this is my most closely followed thread (only have a $1000 deposit with Nitro but really want this to be a thing) so I was surprised to see over 400 new posts! I read them all. Wow. I don't have anything constructive to contribute so
To be fair, the ARA email to a pinsider only said they didn't change the price for the first few shipped games which is consistent with the recently posted emails where there is an agreed upon fixed price for games 1-100. While it may be a bit misleading, it isn't definitively a "lie" based on the information in any of those letters/emails.
I am only a person with $1000 in with Nitro, $0 with DP. While I would like to continue to follow this drama, it makes a lot of sense for EAs to have their own private thread for discussion as they are certainly in a different position than I am on this.
Good luck to all of the EAs on this. Any tidbits that can be posted in this forum would be greatly appreciated.
I asked for my deposit back like a week before this. I would have loved to get one for $12,500. Damn. I haven't seen it confirmed by either distributor that they are sold out. I guess I'll call both in the morning.
Quoted from Dkjimbo:
There are DEFINATELY folks on this forum with all of the factors to be the "angel investor"
Cash on hand
love of pinball
love of the big Lebowski theme
understanding of business metrics and business viability
Why is no one jumping in?? Because there is no financial model that suggests its viable. It needs to be like the DeepRoot Jpop thing....the EA's are an anchor now to this project ever getting back off the ground. I mean that with no disrespect and I fully sympathize with the loss of $8500 to crooks who have now sold the same game twice...HOWEVER, its true, the EA's are a liability to any investor that wants to get in on this. Unless someone is willing to literally give away money to the EA's to get them to commit to not suing like Deep Root did, this is stuck in neutral...
This is right on. I could be the angel investor and there is no chance in hell I'd do that. My money is going to much better investments. I'll buy one guaranteed by Cointaker for $12.5k but that is as much as I believe in this venture.
Quoted from wolfemaaan:
Again, where’s your proof. I believe some but no where near 147. I’m curious what the actual count is instead of rumors.
I’m guessing anybody short money and a machine check this thread often so we should see them lining up. I’d like to see them line up and settle up with DP so this machine can be sold free of issues
What is your motivation for continuing to harp on this? Why do you think every paid-in-full EA that didn't get a game will post here at your insistence thereby giving a more accurate number than the "about 150" number that is generally agreed upon based on current information? Let's do a thought experiment. Say 120 such people do post here. How do you know without a doubt that there aren't any out there that didn't post here? Some of them don't even have pinside accounts. Since this is just a thought experiment, let's say that somehow you do know without a doubt that that 120 is the correct number. What is your plan with that information and how is it so meteorically changed by being 120 instead of 147?
Any EAs willing to take the deal and sell it to me, I'd negotiate something. I'll even trade you straight up for the fancy one with the new gimmicks for the later one if/when you get it. PM me.
I just want to believe that this will all happen, especially as I am on the list from CT (I won't back out if I get the call). I just can't help but be skeptical that Barry will build the games he can build without buying too many other parts and after they are sold, the run of TBL ends. I really hope I'm wrong. It would be great for Barry, EA's, and pinball for one of these pre-order fiascoes to turn out with a happy ending.
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