I would venture a bet there needs to be a slight modification to the apron for the achiever emblem. I don't know where else they would put it.

don't care, they dropped the ball and they know it.

predator

all joking aside, maybe goonies?

Get a beverage, nothing is f@cked here.

Seriously guys, historically DP always waits till they have something substantial to update us with. They could employ a guy/gal full time just to answer emails and calls for updates and people would still complain. They just got back from a month long vacation, are trying to fix production issues and update code. They will update us when they are ready. Their communication has been no worse than any other company who has actually put out a pinball.

While I greatly respect and appreciate the level of service they provide, it is far from the norm.

They do, just not at the frequency we all would like. Which brings me to my original post, even if they employed someone full time to answer these posts/emails/calls, some people would still not be happy.

Grab a beverage, nothing is fucked here.

The real question is, how many TBL's are boxed up and ready.

So ARA missed the mark by 200 games and change, plus the 50 of title 2?

The impression I got from the talk is not that they are not going to purse legal options, but that they were advised to wait before rushing into it. Right now what we have is a standoff. Plain and simple. It's down to which party (ARA or DP) can hold out the longest. Makes sense given the push to move forward with BOP 25th.

agreed.

Given this insight, and knowing the required time frame for ARA to deliver both all TBL and 50 BOP25th, and that additional TBL funds from non-achievers deposits/not paid in full were locked out from DP until the games were ready to ship, it seems what we are seeing is a perfect sh!t storm.

Nice to see we both agree that DP is short on funds based upon expected timetables. Budgeting only goes as far as revenue incoming. After that it becomes debt.

Let's be honest, we all really kept coming back to see rarehero's rants.

Why did you have to ruin it for the rest of us? I've been staring at it for hours and I can't see anything

Has anyone checked to see if little Larry has the money?

Did he actually announce he left DP, or just that he took a position with another company?

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i usually like to sit back and watch the drama unfold, but seriously guys/gals, we can literally mentally masturbate this situation all day. The fact is, we don't know all the facts (if we actually know any at all), and to sit here and randomly speculate is only going to make some of you insane. The only thing we have as hard evidence is that around 50 games are held at ARA, 50ish games have been delivered, and all the non-early achievers have deposits held that are outside of DP's reach. This means that there is a substantial sum of money basically out of DP's reach until the EA games are done.

Why not make an option 3, start running the non achiever games so that the deposits are released, get the line rolling, and deliver them all at the same time?

What amazes me the most in this thread is the number of supposed pinheads who seem to want DP to fail.

It's either that, or a whole lot of people on this board like making assumptions without facts, combined with a complete lack of how business works. This whole fiasco can be summed up into a forecasting nightmare. DP counted on ARA to build games at a specific rate that would open new revenue streams to them. Whether it be intentional or by chance, ARA has created this perfect storm through failure to "abide" by the contract.

Which is why I don't think those numbers are anywhere near accurate.

How so? ARA was providing all the financing.

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News flash, for all those who keep trying to claim it's a pyramid scheme, those who have machines better hope not. Just ask all the early Bernie Madoff investors. Everyone gets shafted if that's the case. Even if you sold yours, you are still liable.

Inorder to label it a pyramid scheme, it has to be an investment. Nice to see everyone switch gears rapidly when reality is invoked.

Good luck on that with the documented history between the two parties. They can't sell anything without going to trial.

It's called forecasting, all companies do it. Except in this instance, there are deposits and then full payment already committed. Like I said before, had ARA delivered, the cash crunch would have never happened. It's really a forecasting nightmare.

Meh, I'll believe it if it's officially announced. Until then it's all trolling. Given the info at hand, and that ARA was in contact with DP customers, ARA would be a fool to file first.

Shipping is a lot different than receiving. I think they are track to box up their first shipping container by the end of December with the rate things are progressing. At the very least some European pins will make it out given no issues with the new build arise.

I really do hope these guys pull it off. They have worked hard to get this far, and have put up with a bunch of nay sayers, unfounded (and founded) rumors, and hard times.

Just like JJP

I’m just glad to see they found a way to build all the TBLs. I could give two sh@ts less about the order they come out. Thanks for finding a way DP!

You are assuming it’s DP that breeched the contract. The whole argument goes up in smoke if ARA is the one who breached contract.

Furthermore, none of us remotely know what remedies were in the contract if such an occasion arose. If there is no severability clause, DP can literally walk away from the deal if ARA did not live up to its obligations; without penalty.

My machine is one of the ones held hostage by ARA, so I am in the same boat as the rest of you. That said, I am going to be optimistic now that they have a plan and moving forward. If it takes another year so be it. It’s better to have some hope vs accepting a complete loss.

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You can grab all the plungers you want.......I’m going to stick to the start button

Forward progress is always a good thing.

I doubt they went into business with DP without a personal guarantee signed on the note. If they did, they are retarded. There had to be some assets put up as collateral for them to assume the liability of ordering all the parts. My guess is that all the ecu’s purchased by DP that they held hostage were part of it. I’m sure DP funded a lot of the prototyping as well.

But then again, as we all know, ARA never did order all the parts. To have a lawsuit there has to be actual damages. By not ordering all the parts as contracted, ARA really just hosed themselves. Missed payment or not, they are in default of the contract by failing to deliver as promised. I really don’t see ARA having strong legal footing anywhere in this deal.

That’s why I am not too worried. It would have been really easy to push the order count to 800 or more and keep grabbing cash, even if it was just $250.00 deposits.

ill be the Jeff Daniels to your Jim Carrey.

Only on pinside can the demise of one pinball company be considered an issue for the overall business health of another. Heighway’s failure was due to a completely separate set of issues. I don’t see the guys at DP living high off the hog and starting a boat company.

Well, I don’t see them soliciting money from people to go to the front of the line, or promising the same machine to multiple buyers. I don’t see any new houses or cars. Is it a great situation? No, but at least they are moving forward. They can still right the ship.

LMAO, this true.

Same holds true for any upstart in that regard, even Homepin. DP is still trying to make it right though. They haven’t bowed out. We can all sit back and arm chair QB about any of these companies, reality is, it’s not easy. Lotta ins, lotta outs....

I really hope many of you are ready to eat crow. While many of you have been trash talking, DP has been learning the art of pinball.

What I am reading is that ARA’s only hope to salvage their investment is to force DP to accept their offer. Without that, ARA has no hope of recouping anything. Sounds like DP holds the ball to me.

At the end of the day, all we can do is assume. What we know is that ARA is stuck with inventory they can’t move, and DP wants to make a pinball machine. None of us know the financials or the specifics of the contracts. On face value, ARA timed the lawsuit to bankrupt DP to give them a strategic advantage. Why would they need this if they are “in the right?”
If they had a true case, it would have been filed immediately. What they need is a defenseless defendant.

I highly doubt the lawsuit came more than a month or so ago. Again, look at what we actually know, not what people are conjecturing. Lots of theory’s, but no one knows anything outside of the limited facts at hand.

Didn’t they offer refunds up until production started? Was it not spelled out that once production started and parts were ordered that EA’s were locked in? I fail to see where this could be considered illegal. Changing manufactures doesn’t change the fact that they started production and had ordered parts.

Pretty sure it’s well documented who those EA machines belong too. That would be one gigantic mess. I wouldn’t touch that deal with a 10 foot pole if I were Cointaker.

Payment terms in business typically are net 30-60 days. I think they are going for clarification. I’ve seen them set at 45, or even 120 days out. Negotiating the terms is not unusual or suspect at all.

We all saw how well that panned out for the first few titles. I think many will agree it was a painful learning process.

This is what ARA is up to. Plain and simple. Their only chance to win is to bankrupt DP so they can’t defend themselves and need ARA to step in and “save” them. And by save, I mean liquidate the company and hose all EA’s.

Not sure if I am ready to send them money, but this is a strategic maneuver to avoid a fight they will most likely loose.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Without a timely manufacturing process, the extra funds tied up as preorders was never released to DP.

Fixed for what you meant, maybe. The email exchanges posted by Rensh clearly show they were negotiating payment terms. What we don’t know, was what was actually agreed upon.

Yet here we are, with a second contract manufacturer lined up. To believe this would be to believe that there are 2 contract manufacturers that are completely inept and unable to function as a business. What is being leaked is simply the tip of the iceberg.

Meh, the circular arguments in this thread are getting old. We still don’t know what was actually agreeded upon, yet we have people ready to lynch DP and exonerate ARA. I’m still a firm believer that the truth is somewhere in between. With a second contract manufacturer willing to sign on, id be willing to bet that the DP side of the story has more truth to it.

Thank you. I will take your advice into consideration since you seem to have all the inside info. I, for one, would not cheer on the failure of a company I got a refund from while simultaneously saying the rest of the people are hosed. News flash, all those people that got out early on the Bernie madoff scam all had to pay all the money back.

And just pointing out the sarcasm, I don’t believe that collecting funds from those out early is legal. I am simply pointing out that at the end of the day, we know nothing for sure.

So, do you have the definitive contract? Because I don’t. Also, that Nigerian prince is filtered out via my spam filter. Thank god for that. I’d have no money other wise.

So, they received all the preorder money then?

From the article:

TWIP: You mention that you’ve had private conversations with Pinball Bros. and Dutch Pinball, and that it is clear to deeproot that they will not deliver on their promises while profiting off the bargain. Can you explain what you mean by that?

RM: That was what was conveyed to me. And I don’t think that that revelation is going to be a surprise to anyone. While I don’t know what is in their heart, (in both conversations) when asked if they would let deeproot take over the obligation without profiting themselves, both said they would not. I wasn’t ok with it during the conversation, and I am not ok with it now. I hope both companies reverse course, but it might be that neither have the financial ability or motivation to do so.

My response:

If this is true, then this would be a huge departure from what DP has been saying and promising. The promise to deliver games. I, for one, would be one of the first to ask for their heads if this is true. I can deal with hearsay and rumors all day, but actual conversations of this type make my blood boil.

DP might want to release a NSNL and start moving forward on building pinballs. This could get ugly fast.

I do believe 100% they have no liquidity, but they would be fools if they were out of funds completely knowing that ARA was lurking waiting to strike. I still believe they have money tied up in both a legal fund as well as an escrow account with xytec to start the build process. They had to pony up something to get the ball rolling given their history.

I’ve often wondered his/her motivations.

No offense here, but if they are truly broke, what will that achieve? You can’t get blood from a stone. If there is no money or assets to split up, then it doesn’t matter if you win and get a multi-million dollar settlement or lose the case, either way you get nothing.

All owned by ARA according to this thread. How does going after DP release these to the EA’s if ARA is a contract manufacture that hasn’t been paid?

Interesting. I didn’t get the NSNL this time around.

For any deal like this to work, someone will have to face all the EA’s. This wasn’t crowd funding nor investing. Some company will have to assume the debt for any sale to take place.

Any one see the teaser on Jeff bridges Twitter? Can we post a link?

I don’t think anyone released a timeframe. Just that the judge said they need to work it out between them.

If there is no money to be had, why bother until this plays out? In the end, the best any EA can hope for is a machine, or those who committed the con to be prosecuted by law for fraud. Suing is just throwing good money at bad right now.

i received a pic of barry and japp........needless to say, they did not receive the money

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As much as I hate to say it, you’re right. This has been their MO since day one.

Definitely not a dude move, more of a Walter and his ringer move. But hindsight being 20/20, it’s looking more and more like you made the right call. I hope I am wrong. I’ve tried to be supportive and understanding of the situation Barry and Japp are in, but I’m coming to believe that I don’t think they have all us EA’s best interests in mind anymore.

If it’s not something that divides us based on labels, the media doesn’t care. Plus, apparently there is no money.....

It would also be possible for a company to buy DP by simply assuming their liabilities (ie debt) as the purchase price. Happens all the time. Until the ARA lawsuit is settled though, I doubt anyone will do that. The debt to the EA’s is a known sum. Damages brought by the lawsuit are an unknown. It is also unknown what has be signed under contact with The new contract manufacturer.

Lotta ins, lotta outs......

The Cohen brothers could write a sequel to TBL using Barry and Jaap and this whole debacle. Maybe we EA’s can get royalties from it.

More importantly, what are the statute of limitations over there? It feels like right now we are being stalled for time.

A settlement through arbitration is still a settlement.

Nothing has been "pure profit," but at 12500 a pop, if they haven't saved anything to buy parts we will know pretty quickly. But in DP's defense, depending on where the parts are made will have a huge impact. Even simple items here in the US are back ordered due to supplier delays.

You and the rest of us that appreciate what he has done.