Eight year-olds Dude.
(Topic ID: 115360)
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The Big Lebowski
Dutch Pinball, 2016
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2 weeks later
2 months later
Quoted from karl:For your sanity I sincerely hope you do not visit any other threads on pinside about pre-ordered machines, if you are annoyed by a few innocent, polite questions about production schedule. This is a pretty easy going thread, with mostly cool people.
Do we want our games as soon as possible? Hell yes. We are thrilled, excited and...yes, a little anxious to get our games. Can you blame us?
PS! Not offended by your post, just saying
Eight year olds, Dude.
2 months later
Quoted from BigLebowski:The eagle has landed!!!
and it´s now sitting in my parking garage and I have to figure out a way to get this 160kg beast into my flat on the 4th floor....
I´ll probably remove the backbox because separated they fit into my elevator.
A first look inside:more to come.....
Unboxing party in the parking garage?
1 week later
Quoted from colonel_caverne:this is a joke?
this machine is built in netherlands and the only dealers are in the US and CA, correct? no dealer in the EU?
if you want this machine, you need to buy it to cointaker, paying an oversea shipping and customs, still correct?
dutch pinball can go to hell...
You're not French Kanadian are you? Obviously you're not a golfer.
1 week later
Quoted from sd_tom:Maybe you guys can relate. I've been reluctant to where my DP T-shirt to work (causal Friday) lately as I was getting too many questions from coworkers about "hey did you ever get that pinball machine"? Today its coming out of the closet.
I may need another shirt. Mine is getting a little ratty. 
1 week later
Quoted from sd_tom:Wondering if the coil swap was from the production sample machine going to shows; maybe they've already decided that over the long term the original choice was too weak / overheated? So trying to get ahead of it.
The way I read it they went to a weaker coil.
23-800 4.2 ohms
26-1200 10.9 ohms (replacement)
Quoted from sd_tom:Gotcha.. I'm not up on my coils numbers .. figured larger was more powerful. What's the norm on slings?
My Tron uses a 26-1200. I don't know if Stern has standardized on a particular slingshot setup. I believe most of their games use 2" rubbers.
Quoted from burningman:F*ckin A!
Should be unboxing in about 2-3 hours....
Nice pin hauler dude.
2 weeks later
Quoted from kidchrisso:Man...didn't this game come with a manual?
That's actually a good question. I haven't seen anything on the documentation.
1 week later
Quoted from fosaisu:Do we ever actually see the Dude eating at In-and-Out? Maybe they were just picking up a sack of burgers for Walter. I kind of imagine the Dude being veggie/vegan.
Booze on the other hand ...
I don't know. Milk products definitely rule out vegan. And using coffee creamer as a substitute milk product in a Caucasian would indicate the Dude isn't very picky about what he eats. In-and-Out burgers shouldn't be a problem if that's what's available.
Quoted from Aurich:I'm rooting for DP, I just think the audience for $10k pins is limited. We're talking twice what a Stern Pro goes for. Yes, there are big TBL fans, but if they're not pinball people I can't see them shelling out. Think about it, would you buy a $10k themed TBL ... I dunno, jukebox? Slot car track? Some other collectible hobby that doesn't have the same emotional connection we have with pins.
We're in the bubble here, we love pinball, and we're kinda used to these crazy prices. I think once you leave the appeal is pretty limited.
IMHO if you want one you should get it soon. Maybe I'm wrong! But this strikes me as the kind of thing you buy while you can.
Please don't confuse this with a Stern Pro. The better comparison is it is $500 more than Jerry Jacks top model.
Quoted from Aurich:Remember, WOZ, which managed to get JJP in the door, was what? $6500 if you pre-ordered? I don't know what would have happened if they came out the game with WOZ at $10k.
Well they may not have had to seek investors to stay in business. I don't know if $10k would have made that worse or better, but a wide body starts with a higher cost of materials just because it is bigger. I guess the point here is that if you get what you pay for there is a market segment that will buy it. A Mazda Miata and a Ferrari are both fun sports cars but clearly are marketed to different market segments.
For me, spending $8,500 two years ago was a no-brainer. After watching the stupid prices for 1979 Kiss pins over the years I believe there will be a strong non-pinhead secondary market demand for this game. If TBL ends up being a small run all the better. The non-pinhead-Dude-heads had no idea the game was being made and available for pre-order 2 years ago. It will be interesting to see what happens once the game is available to the general public after the pre-orders are fulfilled.
Quoted from dasvis:Any guesses what DP's next game will be?
I find it hard to fathom that they would go to all the trouble setting up production lines to stop at one.
I think Stern has a fairly fixed pricing model for licensing. My guess is that there are a bunch themes out there where the license cost doesn't fit their $4-8k price point. Ghostbusters probably took this long to get made because the license fee was too high over the years. Sales for GB are off the charts, for current day pinball, and a lot of people are scratching their heads wondering why it took so long.
Two titles off the top of my head that are long over due are the Beatles and Pink Floyd. I would like to see DP specialize in games titles with cult followings. There are many more out there. The key to making this work is a development team that knows the subject matter.
3 months later
Quoted from Mr_Bricks:What's the going price on TBL now? Is anyone getting a price break?
It is $12k if you want to buy it from me. You know, Christmas is almost here.
2 months later
Quoted from CyberNinja24:I did let Melissa know that the lack of communication from everyone involved is quite disappointing, though I thanked her for always taking the time to visit. Just a quick update for what it's worth.
I'm pretty sure that DP posting in a public forum will do nothing to help resolve this situation. Wether resolution happens between the two parties or in court a data dump here will be to DP's disadvantage.
Quoted from CyberNinja24:Clearly DP and ARA are deep in a dispute and cannot discuss things. But, others in the know can drop and update now and again. It's all good. Hang in there and see what happens.
It sounds like Melissa just did exactly that.
I believe a while back there was some discussion, or maybe is was speculation, that DP has at least one "angel" as a major backer. A lot of stuff that cost money happen before any preorders were taken.
At the first factory tour a joint presentation was made by DP and ARA showing the production ramp-up over a period of months. I believe the steady state was to be 10 units per week. Obviously that didn't happen. It sounds like ARA didn't fully understand that making pinball machines is hard.
Well if I were a betting man, and I must be, #106, my money would be on American Pinball picking up the manufacturing of TBL. They are a start up with coin-op roots, hungry and they have a facility. They've already popped out their first pin, Magic Girl...OK, Jpop screwed the boards and mechs in place, but AP did almost everything else other than art, playfield, cabinet and programing. DP moves to a new CM and ARA is left with 40 boxes of parts they can't sell as a complete unit. I really hope ARA's claim that they haven't been paid for the games shipped is true, what great leverage that would be to free those 40 completed games and any inventory being held hostage. You know ARA must have made all 300+ sets of custom boards in one batch.
Quoted from rubberducks:I don't think DP considered any CMs outside of NL, Germany and possibly Belgium (perhaps one of the Dutch here can correct me if I'm wrong), and they said they submitted a tender to about 10 of them, originally. I would imagine they probably won't this time.
Bad as their current dispute is ... imagine having to fly 10-12 hours just to see progress, or butt heads?
I think the key for success is a company with a coin-op background and even better, knows how to build pinball machines, which by the way is HARD.
1 week later
I hope nobody is going to TPF for the DP seminar. Hey they'll have hundreds of pins there. That's like buying Playboy for the "articles." Of course now that they don't have naked women anymore maybe you do buy Playboy for the articles. 
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:You must not be following along, playboy brought back naked women
Yeah. My subscription ran out in the 80's.
Quoted from TRAMD:I don't understand the early achievers that aren't more upset with DP.
You are correct sir, you do not understand...#106.
Hey, companies have vendor problems all of time. Heighway is trying to move as much of the production process in-house as possible to avoid supply chain issues in the UK. DP has zero in house manufacturing and the associated overhead. Both of those configurations have potential problems. DP is at the mercy of its vendors and Heighway must deal with startup costs and cash flow (just like JJP almost didn't) to launch a new company. ARA obviously under bid and didn't understand the requirements. DP is in charge of the big bag of money and it appears they are using that leverage to manage ARA's non-performance. I'm also guessing the now missing revenue from selling games is impacting expenditures for programing. New updates have been missing. Perhaps, DP isn't asking the programmer to work for free (like JPOP did) until the cash flow starts going in the other direction.
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Quoted from highdef:I will become vicious if DP doesn't communicate directly with its customers before next Saturday's seminar at TPF.
If you want direct communication, pickup the phone and call Jaap. Any email sent from DP must be considered public communication as it ends up here in a matter of minutes.
Quoted from dzoomer:They could at least post that "there is pending legal action". Frankly, one doesn't even know if that is true. Zero communication = bad.
Well if there is no legal action that would be great. But the same rules apply if you are trying to settle a dispute. No need to poison the negotiations here.
If it is true that ARA wanted 1,000 euros more per game, that was a huge miscalculation by ARA. I believe production cost of a pin is around $3,000. If ARA now wants $4,000 per game, they were off by 30%.
Quoted from Rarehero:How about Jaap call every one of us?
I haven't asked or sent him my phone number. You?
Quoted from luvthatapex2:You have no idea the cost of making a pinball like this. Try doubling that. That's why there is not much left to negotiate on a price increase.
I know in the past, when Stern gives away games as a prize in a tournament the winner can receive a pro version game or $2,900 cash. Maybe for DP it is $4K or $5K that is still off by 20%.
Quoted from dzoomer:LOL. Then DP should communicate to all members that they are negotiating. And at this point there should be a basic qualitative reference to progress or schedule. There has been nothing. It's been months now since this issue started too. Again, no communication at this point = bad.
Maybe it's all not direct communication:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/59#post-3601977
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/69#post-3609884
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/70#post-3623497
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/73#post-3644027
Quoted from dzoomer:LOL. It isn't. Been months since direct update to buyers now waiting for years. Years.
Stop moving the goalposts.
#106. You?
Quoted from highdef:Right. Because we should kiss DP's ass to get a status update on our $8500 investment. Makes perfect sense!
If I felt that talking to Jaap would change anything I would have been on the phone a long time ago. I want DP to fix this and I believe DP wants the same.
Quoted from rubberducks:If you think the cost of a TBL is anywhere near a Stern (S)LE, let alone a Stern Pro, you're nuts. Try double the former (SLE).
$6,000? And then ARA wants $1000 on top? That math would never work. Shipping plus CT's cut plus IP. DP stands to make $500 a game or $150K! Out of that minus art, programing, admin, office rent, lawyers. DP would be a nonprofit pinhead hobby.
Quoted from rubberducks:The high volume Stern Pros are likely closer to $1500 BOM and assembly costs than $3000. But I'd say given the issues with ARA $6k is probably conservative.
If the new CM works out, and they are indeed larger and can produce the games more quickly and efficiently, that probably also means cheaper too. Also more likelihood of more than 300 being produced. So possibility of some silver lining. We'll see.
If ARA is getting $6k (and wants more) then everything is fucked here Dude.
Quoted from highdef:I get your point, but a lot of us don't care about DP's profitability at this point. When it comes down to brass tacks, their problems/woes shouldn't be our ours. Unfortunately, it's the cost/risk of doing business.
I would not feel so strongly if we didn't have to contend with the drama with Phil, music licensing, delays, lack of transparency, and fibs.
I try to only worry about things I can influence or have control over.
Quoted from MrBally:They are crooks, plain & simple. Without them contacting buyers after another delay & broken promises offering a refund or partial refund, it is obvious they cannot fund refunds.
If you don't want to believe me, tough titty.
#106. You?
Quoted from MrBally:When one puts a deposit down on say a car and the order is delayed, purchaser's ( note, I did not say "investors or early adopters") are not told that the only person who can answer the reason for the delay will be making a presentation to explain everything at the Chicago, New York or LA Auto Show (always the farthest location).
I usually just contact the vendor or if it's outside the timeframe of when I need it, cancel and buy it somewhere else.
1 week later
Quoted from Mr68:Enough people have responded to this comment to make me realize it was poorly written and so vague its been misinterpreted. I value everyone's feedback and will try to learn from this. - Apologies.
"All clubs (...members only!) » “The Big Lebowski Preorder Club”"
3 weeks later
Quoted from Nilroc:I have to say with all the time that has passed waiting for this debacle to be rectified the DP team could have released a new update of the code for TBL.
It's not like they haven't had the time to work on that part of TBL.
You cash flow to pay the programmer. Well, actually JPOP didn't pay the programmer, so maybe not.
1 month later
Quoted from titanpenguin:It's either that, or a whole lot of people on this board like making assumptions without facts, combined with a complete lack of how business works. This whole fiasco can be summed up into a forecasting nightmare. DP counted on ARA to build games at a specific rate that would open new revenue streams to them. Whether it be intentional or by chance, ARA has created this perfect storm through failure to "abide" by the contract.
Quoted from Rarehero:...and ARA counted on DP to pay them, and claims they didn't. It's a they said/they said situation, but I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Let's hope these are both right. If DP isn't paying that means they have the money, minus BOM for 300 games.
Quoted from foxtj24:Or they spent all the money trying to look like rock stars at all the pinball shows.
At the time, that was referred to as marketing, something pinball companies have never been known for.
Quoted from foxtj24:If you have a profit margin of $1500 per machine and 200 machines sold and paid for that is $300,000. That is long gone and then some. That is why they do not have the money to pay ARA. How much did they blow at expo alone? If ARA truly wanted an extra 1k per machine, That would leave 500 profit before shipping costs to get them to there respective countries. Too thin a margin, Too much partying. I hope they take an investor, or let someone buy a majority of the company to get our machines made.
Yep. None of those numbers work. It would be crazy to start a company on those margins.
Quoted from knockerlover:. And maybe, if you're lucky we will also get 1/10th (or worse) of that really cool automated robot that was bought to make the playfields.
Quit feeding the trolls. Nobody bought a robot.
Quoted from knockerlover:DP, put your cards in the table. Let's either gear up or move on.
Shhhh! 
There are delicate negotiations going on. A lot of ins and outs.
Quoted from knockerlover:I'm sure we can make that happen.
"We?" You buy somebody's spot?
Quoted from knockerlover:Myself and a few other friends are in on 8 through cointaker.
Oh. Didn't realize CoinTaker had taken early achiever money.
Quoted from knockerlover:They didn't. Read the back a few pages then pull your tape measure out big guy. If you don't want another advocate on your side piss off.
Quoted from knockerlover:Myself and a few other friends are in on 8 through cointaker.
Sorry. Must have misread your post.
2 weeks later
OK. Everybody back over to the Alien and Predator threads. You can come back in a couple weeks and complain that the games aren't shipping.
Quoted from sd_tom:Glad to see some movement. Even having an alternative option may change ARAs tune as well.
At this point I'd rather not have ARA build my game. Seems like that would be a shotgun wedding.
Quoted from Rensh:The whole financial planning must be based on producing over the original 300 pcs eg the extra amount will have to make good for all the extra endured costs. Can't be otherwise.
The extra endured costs will be recovered in court.
DP has actual sales (early achievers) and orders (deposits) on the books. This is something a bank can provide funding for to support cash flow needs.
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