(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)

By Nilroc

4 years ago

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  • 619 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 day ago by fosaisu
  • Topic is favorited by 190 Pinsiders


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Topic index (key posts)

27 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #2465 Tips on removing the upper playfield Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2474 Photo of the updated divertor Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2477 Photos of new tilt graphics side art for TBL Posted by jGraffix (3 years ago)

Post #2506 Factory visit update! Posted by rubberducks (3 years ago)

Post #2926 DP's response to their issue with ARA and game manufacturing. Posted by JimB (2 years ago)

Post #2971 pinghetto contacts ARA for information regarding the delays Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #2973 pinghetto information regarding contacting ARA Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #3056 ARA's email response about DP's claims. Posted by CrazyLevi (2 years ago)

Post #3483 Jaap from Dutch Pinball counters the ARA story. Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3491 ARA counters the Jaap counter to ARA's previous communication! Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3650 Report from a dinner with Barry of Dutch Pinball. Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #3951 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #4259 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #5004 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5229 DP update about an alternative manufacturer Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5461 Details on June 19th DP Livestream Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #6420 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by KoenHeltzel (2 years ago)

Post #6684 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Concretehardt (1 year ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#8953 5 months ago

Unless there's some sort of guarantee backed by a reputable third party, I think you'd have to be crazy to give these guys money.

#9002 5 months ago

I have no skin in this game but it sounds to me like the early achievers are getting screwed.

#9030 5 months ago
Quoted from CoinTaker:

The people that had deposits in with us will pay the same price of 12,500 or they will not get one.
Not our doing, but in order to get the games, this is the cost.

So people put in a deposit at a lower price point and are now being told to pay more or they don't get a game?

#9031 5 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Focus on who you shame. DP, ARA I get it.
New buyers that want to buy one owe nothing or have zero stake in this to existing buyers. Not the new buyers fault. No shame in getting some more TBL games out in circulation.

I'm starting to think shame on cointaker...

#9074 5 months ago

I don't really find the rationale of "if we don't sell them then someone else will in Europe" to be a reasonable justification. It's like saying "if we don't screw these guys over, then someone else will. We might as well make a little money on it." People keep talking about ARA like they're the only party that should be made whole. This whole thing just feels shady all over to me. Like I said I have no skin in the game and don't have any interest in buying one.

#9115 5 months ago
Quoted from dung:

That is debatable. they may go up, they may go down. Hard to tell.

How much will they be worth when they don't work and no replacement parts are available?

#9140 5 months ago
Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:

it's not easy to fire up a pinball production line and start rolling out games

What if they roll on Shabbos?

#9172 5 months ago
Quoted from Manimal:

I'll admit I just scanned most posts as I can't keep up here, but anyone that thinks more games will ever be made by DP is crazy. I do feel bad for JAAP, but his former company is gone and people need to accept that.
ARA doesn't want these games in a warehouse, so I am sure they have worked out some sort of split with DP to get these games and parts sold. All of the claims about generating revenue to make the original buyers whole is pure crap. It has proven to be an unsustainable model time and time again. It is a pure cash grab, and DP needs a good cover to get dealers to purchase the games and to keep the original buyers from throwing burning dung on their door step. They have shown time and time again they cannot be trusted.
Now with that said, I am amazed at the rush of people to buy these games knowing others put out good money for them. I don't know if the original buyers would have any legal remedies, but they should surely be exploring the possibility. And while it is entirely legal for others to rush up to the sales counter....just ask yourselves how you would feel if the roles were reversed and you were one of the early buyers. Horrible Karma at the least.
Mostly though, I am really disappointed in the dealers and the attitude displayed regarding the situation. They know full well people got taken for a lot of money on these games, yet they are willing to just overlook that part of the issue and act like it doesn't matter. Aren't many of the early buyers your customers too? I am (or used to be) a huge fan of Cointaker.....but when you were asked about the early buyers and just replied that they would need to take that up with DP is unacceptable. This is a small industry, and small group that is like a family, and to just discard people that were wronged to "keep these games from going to the European market" is pure BS. It is a cash grab all of the way around....and the claims of "we aren't making much" are BS as well. "Much" is a relative term and really says nothing.
I was not an early buyer....I would have loved to have one of these games at one point, but I would never touch one now unless they were made completely by a different company. This whole deal stinks to high heaven, and I hope somehow the early buyers get made whole in all of this, but it won't be with any new startup of production. That will NEVER happen. There isn't enough money in 200 games to get that going, let alone 40.
All of this seems like going through your grandma's purse for cash after she passed away. Horrible....but I doubt anyone is going to lose any sleep over it. It is only pinball after all.

I'm honestly surprised that coin taker is touching this because it is going to hurt their reputation with at least some people. They seemed to have a very good reputation before, and if I was ever tempted to try buying NIB again then they were the first place I was going to check based on the positive word of mouth. After this, though, I would never buy from them. This just feels dirty through and through. Yes... The games will get sold one way or another, but they don't have to be the ones doing the dirty work. And now they've set a precedent of taking deposits and then raising the price after the fact...

#9174 5 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Kind of predicted this a few pages back; however, 99% of people long forget 6, 12 months down the line. Wish I had a penny everytime I hear people are boycotting something for some reason only to find them back at the business. Just doesn’t work.

There are plenty of distributors that aren't involved in this. Why would it be hard to boycott CT when there are so many alternatives?

#9183 5 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Dude, pinball people forget in less time that! Predator, Zidware(Some people buying multiple "pins" based on artwork alone) Alien, and finally DP. Hell, someone in this very thread just a few pages back said something to the affect "Im not getting a good feeling about this now" LOL Ya think???

Who is giving those companies money more than once? I have no idea but I would think the number is close to 0 people. Even if they were, it's hardly comparable to doing business with a distributor. You can get the same games from any number of other distributors. There are so many options that all it takes to rule one out is a single bad impression, and this is quite a bad impression... at least for me.

#9196 5 months ago

Splitting the risk...

#9202 5 months ago
Quoted from mavantix:

If we’re talking about being fair, why aren’t the Cointaker deposit holders getting the games like Nitro has claimed to be doing?

Maybe it's not so much about being fair but more about splitting the risk with Nitro. I mean, would you want to collect funds for 40 games and then send the money to DP and just trust that they'll send the games? Everyone agrees they're liars and criminals except right now it's cool to send them a ton of money... *shrugs*

#9237 5 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

You must have missed the part where DP isn’t getting a dime from CT until DHL confirms the games were picked up / shipped.

So DP, who ran out of money long ago is fronting the shipping fees on the games?

That matter aside, that's only confirmation that 40 boxes were shipped. The condition of those games, if there are even complete games in the boxes, is still a risk. What if a bunch of the games have significant flaws? If games show up to customers in bad shape, are CT and Nitro just going to say "you'll have to take that up with Dutch Pinball?" Or are they taking risk by sending money before actually inspecting the games and giving some sort of guarantee to their customers that they'll be OK?

This is all Risky Business if you ask me.

#9293 5 months ago
Quoted from Amused_to_Death:

He already stated that for all intents and purposes he was out on Wonka before this news broke. I don't know that he needs to find an excuse beyond what he has already said: poor/misguided use of assets. The musical that isn't.

They should set up a market on predictit for whether kaneda will cancel his wonka.

#9332 5 months ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

you have no clue how I got my games, what price they were, and how hard I worked to get some of them with second and third jobs.

Second and third jobs to buy pinball machines? Maybe you have a problem...

#9358 5 months ago
Quoted from Billy16:

I really hope no one who wired CT the big bucks did so with the intention of flipping. That would be way beyond not cool. I'd almost bet someone does, and people will line up to buy it.

Are you kidding me? These games will be on pinside/ebay the first week.

2 weeks later
#9510 4 months ago
Quoted from whitey:

Hopefully the $500k can get things settled and somehow this game goes back into production . Be nice too see the EA guys get there games at what the originally we’re going to pay or close to

Let's not give them false hope.

#9550 4 months ago

Barry's opening all the boxes all filling them with his dirty laundry... The whites.

#9558 4 months ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

FYI (posted today):

So the 40 games doesn't even cover the amount they owe ARA. EAs will never get anything.

#9573 4 months ago

I just hope they start making this game in China and then when I order one and it arrives without legs I can say "I didn't blame anyone for the loss of my legs. Some Chinaman took them from me."

#9576 4 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

It would seem from listening to that podcast that Dutch Pinball has been working with or negotiating with a venture capitalist or a financial institution for some time now. After DP explained their plans during final negotiations, it's my assumption that ARA agreed to take a lump sum from the sale of the 40 games and agreed to carry the balance owed. If my speculation is true, that's a smart compromise for both companies.
I'm not into making casual predictions like others are but right now it seems to soon to call this a dead situation.

I listened to the segment of the podcast about DP and basically you have one guy who's friends with Barry and who's been involved with it being really optimistic and telling some of what he knows but not all, and then his co-host who's more of an outsider to the situation listening to it all and saying he's still very skeptical, so while I think there's some good info in there, I think there's a lot of bias on the part of the reporter as he tries to make his friend sound like not such a bad guy.

#9587 4 months ago

If DP does start using the parts to make new machines, who's going to send them money up front for a game?

#9596 4 months ago
Quoted from dts:

People are shelling out $12.5k routinely now with JJP CEs.

I'd hardly say it's routine.

#9611 4 months ago
Quoted from Time:

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#9631 4 months ago
Quoted from whitey:

You think CT would release 500 G,s without having games in there
Possession? Or at least in a escrow account.

That's one thing that surprised me about the podcast. Where are they getting the money to pay ARA to release the games this week if CT isn't paying up front? It doesn't add up.

#9659 4 months ago
Quoted from whitey:

That’s the only way it would work

I know this is what has been said but it raises a lot of other questions about how they will pay ARA in order to get the games.

I would be getting nervous if I threw $12,500 at this in a panic FOMO buy.

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#9675 4 months ago

You guys are all out of your element.

#9694 4 months ago
Quoted from JustLikeMe:

Couldn't agree more. No wonder they don't want to reveal their identity.

No surprise that Kaneda is doing this out in the open. What a tool.

#9916 4 months ago
Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:

I can't reveal my source. Believe me if you want.

I don't.

#9971 4 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

There are DEFINATELY folks on this forum with all of the factors to be the "angel investor"
Cash on hand
love of pinball
love of the big Lebowski theme
understanding of business metrics and business viability
Why is no one jumping in?? Because there is no financial model that suggests its viable. It needs to be like the DeepRoot Jpop thing....the EA's are an anchor now to this project ever getting back off the ground. I mean that with no disrespect and I fully sympathize with the loss of $8500 to crooks who have now sold the same game twice...HOWEVER, its true, the EA's are a liability to any investor that wants to get in on this. Unless someone is willing to literally give away money to the EA's to get them to commit to not suing like Deep Root did, this is stuck in neutral...

Some rich person might just do it to screw over Kaneda and make his flip attempt backfire.

#10023 4 months ago
Quoted from JimB:

It would be nice if the flippers would send their profit back to DP. An honorable way to help the EA’s. Fat chance I know.

Nice try, Barry.

#10084 4 months ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Can you confirm whether the EA plaques were removed? And any word on what's going to be done with those?

They're going to mail them to EAs framed with a picture of the new owner of their game enjoying the game they paid for.

#10171 3 months ago
Quoted from Londonpinball:

Is Cointaker giving anything to the EA’s from his profit in this scam?
Maybe Cointaker can donate his Profit to the EAs.
That would help the EAs recover pennies on the dollar .
Not offering the EA’s first shot at games is lazy
Not offering the EA’s the profit is heartless

Cointaker's rationale for selling these games was: "if we don't sell them here, someone else will in Europe". It's kind of like if a mob boss wanted to hire you to kill a guy and you say "Well, if I don't kill him, he'll just hire someone else to kill him. I might as well do it and make a little money on it since he's going to die anyways." I think CT had the choice to not get involved in this nasty business but they chose money over integrity. I competely disagree with everyone saying they have no share in this mess.

#10174 3 months ago
Quoted from Toucanf16:

I call BS, CT held deposits for many years. DP (and unfortunately the EAs lost), ARA won. CT stepped up to get games for those with deposits.

CT told customers they had to pay another $4000 or not get the game. Imagine ordering something from Amazon, not getting it for three years, then being told it would cost 50% more or they would cancel your order.

#10177 3 months ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

This analogy doesn’t make sense.. a better analogy is, imagine you ordered something from Kickstarter.. then it shows up on amazon before you get it for twice as much money, meanwhile you’re still waiting for your order
Guess what, that happens too.

And everyone complains about it but in this case everyone's defending it... I don't understand why there is a separate set of rules for pinball compared to every other industry.

#10232 3 months ago
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

A little learning curve was needed.[quoted image]


1 week later
#10352 3 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

Have you ever stripped an entire Playfield top and bottom And disassembled all the mechs for cleaning / restore? There’s a TON of parts, and given there’s no manual for TBLthat I’m aware of, there’s currently no help to assemble all this so that’s quite a lot of work to put together enough documentation for someone to get it out together correctly. It’s unlikely all the little needed screws, nuts, washers, etc ( maybe even a few critical parts) would make it into every cabinet. Some of the pf divets could be off, all kinds of assembly crap could go wrong. They’d HAVE to have full harnesses supplied but that leaves a ton of soldering. If you e ever restored a game fully you know how critical all the tear down pics are. W/out those,and without any memory in the harness to lay it out, and with (likely) missing parts and similar but different hardware pieces.... yeah that sounds like a friggn nightmare. The instructions would have to be damn good with full color pics.. talking something like a DILE manual quality here.

If I were an EA I'd probably settle for the parts. At least I'd be getting something instead of just watching other people buying my game over and over again.

1 week later
#10424 3 months ago

This interview is a disgrace. The hosts completely softball it and don't ask any hard questions and even say things like "I understand if you don't want to answer..." Why not ask where all the money went? How much salary have they taken? This was a joke.

#10433 3 months ago
Quoted from BeeGeeMtl:

Really? Those questions are important to you? I'm an EA and I could give a flying you-know-what about where my money went or how much salary they're taking. It's gone. They f*cked up. That's the answer. How will that get me my pin any faster?
Since we don't have much recourse, why not be happy that AT LEAST Barry is trying to get us our machines at this point. Geez guys, lighten up in here. Seems like everyone is just bashing for the sake of bashing. You'd rather Barry just stay quiet and close his company and then we're all really finito?
At least he's trying. It's not everything we wanna hear but after waiting for almost 4-5 years now, I could care less about his salary and just wanna start moving toward a possible resolution, which this seems to be headed toward. It's not gonna happen overnight, but if he keeps tryyyyyying, maybe there's a chance. I'm optimistic and hopeful but not if everyone just continues to bash on the guy over and over.

You're never going to get a pin. Stop buying their BS. It's over. If they make any more games you can be sure none of the money will go to making games for EAs. Did you hear the part where they laughed off lying about the board problem? They want you to believe there's hope so you'll stand aside while they take their parts and license and sell games for $12,500 to new customers. No one in their right mind believes this will all work out. And how many TBLs do you think will sell at $12,500 if everyone thinks they will continue to roll off the line? Even if the rest of the plan was believable, scarcity is what made this game valuable. No one is going to buy an unreliable game without warranty from this company for that price if they somehow do manage to resume production. They entire plan is ridiculous.

#10536 3 months ago
Quoted from CoinTaker:

We happen to have 3 of the EA's due too us as well as we purchased some from other people when they wanted to bail. We are in the same exact boat as the other EA's. Hence trying to get these games back into production. We are just trying to see a great game made and hopefully someday (we are in the 100's on the EA list) see our games as well.
And we are far from nonchalant on this. If you say you want to see the EA's get there games, how on earth do you think that was going to happen if this lawsuit was not settled?

What fee did you get for each of the 40 games sold? How much will you get for future games sold? I think everyone here is interested in transparency. People in this thread are claiming you are making nothing from this. You say you have 3 EA machines due to you... I'm curious to know where you are in the balance after collecting fees on EA games sold to new buyers.

#10541 3 months ago
Quoted from CoinTaker:

Seriously, 12,500 per games airfreighted DHL with all import/export fees paid....and you think I made money...The lawsuit settlement was close to 500K....12500 x 40 is 500,000.00
Check out the rates on airfreight, duties were minimum, as only had to pay DHL to get them through customs...All games were fully insured for the 12,500.00
You do the math....
And no, we did not get any of our EA funds back on this deal....This deal was solely to get things to where they may eventually build and we all may be made whole.
If I were the type of person you are trying to make me out to be, I could have sold them for far more and made a profit...that's not who we are and what we are about...if you would like to discuss more, please feel free to call me 570-847-9595

I'm just asking if you got a cut or fee for each game. I see a lot of numbers there but no direct answer.

#10544 3 months ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Cointaker is a distributor and took on a bunch of work to sell those 40 games. What would possibly make you think that they wouldn't get a cut or fee for each game sold? That's not how distribution works.

Because they are implying that they got nothing out of this whole deal.

#10549 3 months ago
Quoted from kvan99:

and now the guy who ripped off the community is once again benefitting. I also want to ask Cointaker why are they enriching this guy, is Cointaker benefiting financially from this also?

I'm just trying to get the facts straight. This has been an open question. Now we know that Cointaker is financially benefitting from this.

#10551 3 months ago
Quoted from CoinTaker:

I’m not financially benefitting like u seem to think. I’m getting paid for my time. Do u work for free. Please answer this question

I get paid for my time, but I don't work with criminals like Barry.

#10552 3 months ago
Quoted from CoinTaker:

I’m not financially benefitting like u seem to think. I’m getting paid for my time. Do u work for free. Please answer this question

If you are so confident that your part in this is kosher, then why not disclose to everyone here what your fee is for these games?

#10643 3 months ago

Does anyone really believe this is a $12,500 game? Take away the scarcity and what's it worth?

#10655 3 months ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

All options aren’t good enough.
There needs to be a clear way that EAs get games.
If it’s 1 of 2, 1 of 3, or 1 of 4 so be it.
Putting all of the EAs at the end of the line is not acceptable. I have new money to buy a game but will not till EAs start getting games too.

That would depend on this not being a scam...

#10695 3 months ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Imagine paying for the house and they build your neighbors instead.

And then paying even more a second time in the hopes that you get both houses, meanwhile the realtor is just collecting commissions on every sale and calling it a good deed.

#10719 3 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Savage, yet accurate.

DP is the contractor, CT is the realtor.

2 months later
#11164 18 days ago

If another 500 of these do go out into the world, is it still a $12,500 game?

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