Man, I f#%kin' hate the Eagles.
Quoted from sd_tom:
Decent folger's can on ebay this week; actually says there's 2 available!
ebay.com link » 1984 Folgers Metal Coffee Can 39 Oz Automatic Drip Tin Dated 1984 With Lid
it's from a smoke free home though so, you know.. not totally authentic.
Is this the correct can? I don't feel like doing the research...
Quoted from NightMutilator:
I literally joined the pre-order club with 8 minutes remaining. I feel insane for spending this much on a machine sight unseen, but damn that bowling lane feature is the coolest thing ever. I couldn't resist. Fingers tightly crossed that it's a solid build!
I added you to the list!
Quoted from sevenrites:
» YouTube video
My apologies if you can't hear the call outs or sound effects, as I will probably get hit with a copyright claim instantly due to the small amount of time Bob Dylan is playing in the background. Therefore, YouTube will more than likely decide to generously mute the entire sound clip for us. They already did it once.
To rectify that, I've got it uploaded here, with full sound:
Nice video! I had the sound. Looks like you have to be careful where you hit the rug, SDTM danger!
I heard Goodman say "that is very undude" was that a tilt warning?
Q3 is cool with me.
Very good communication. I sure hope they get the audio clips approved. I can live without some of the video clips, although I would certainly like them all!
Dude - that is good to see!
Cant wait to get this pin.
Did anyone ever comment on the family version of the audio? Voice work or the clips from the TV version on the movie?
I am still expecting the fancy apron guys. It would be a little weird to very specifically show that (there was a 'guess what this is' post or update a while back involving the cool apron) and then cutting it.
That's a bummer man.
I was pretty sure they said they licensed the songs separately at some point.
Quoted from LITZ:
Here is a link to the video presentation that was included in the newsletter. DP takes attention to detail to a whole new level! You can tell they have poured their heart, soul and love into this project.
» YouTube video
Just finished the whole video and glad I did. Pretty informative and gives you a feeling of their seriousness. Connecting TBL to the internet brings a lot of possibilities too. I like the example of DP monitoring usage and advising about parts breakage and giving you the opportunity to order ahead of the projected failure.
Also - PDXMonkey gets mentioned by name for his pinball skills!
Great video, thanks for posting. That was the best audio I have heard yet. Music sounds great to me!
Quoted from Darth_Chris:
Ok I just got back on planet Lebowski.
Looks like I'm completly disconnected
When I heard Dutch Pinball did not get license right I though : that's it.......project is dead
Audio versions of the songs and movie clips are pretty good.
Now they have that : waiting for final approval label in every clip.
Do we know if clips and songs will stay ?
Any way we could do a pinball browser mod like Cleland did in Twd to switch back to the original songs ?
I'm so confuse right now cause i'm a hge fan of TBL that's why without clips, callouts or music it's just not Lebowski
You are like a child that wanders into the middle of a movie....
Quoted from JustLikeMe:
I live in an apartment in London, so I only have room for two machines - the rest of the collection is at my parents place. Iron Man VE has gone to my friends house, but TBL will be next to my Tron LE, at least until GB Premium arrives - then Tron LE will go to my parents! Juggling machines without much space is difficult.
Edit: My original point here that I didn't get around to mention is that I too seem to have an affinity for pinball machines featuring Jeff Bridges. Several people have pointed this out to me previously.
If you need a safe place to store your TronLE, in the spirit of TBL brotherhood, I humbly volunteer my home.
We could pull up a lot of old posts where people were positive this wasn't gonna happen at all.
If you will it dude, it is no dream!
Dude, I am moving and am probably gonna have to ask cointaker to hold onto my game for an extra month.....arrrghhhhhh
I am trying (as hard as I can) to move to Nashville, so you are welcome to come play mine when we find a house.
Hey guys - I kind of hate to do this, but I just moved into a new house with an unfinished basement and my basement won't be refinished for probably another 3-4 months. In fact, I will probably have to move my games into storage to get this project done. Cointaker is sitting on my game right now until I can take delivery. And this thread is killing me!!!
I would consider trading with another achiever that doesn't have their game yet. Any takers?
Oh no, not selling!!! For goodness sakes after everything I did to track and promote this when it was a fake project?
Just thought there might be a dude (has to be an achiever/pre order) out there that wants theirs earlier and I can't have mine for 3 or 4 more months anyway.
Hey dudes- concretehardt contacted me first and we are gonna try and work it out with Meliisa tomorrow, but I will keep you guys in mind if it does not work out.
Quoted from MrBally:
They were on the Pinball Expo schedule including the giant ones on easels at the hotel until they got crossed off a few hours prior to their session start time. Afterwards, the website version was changed
To be fair, there were other changes to the schedule. Mr. Personality comes to mind......
Was checking the thread to see if they delivered any good news at TPF. Cancelling seems like bad news. Anyone know anything different?
BOP is the only thing that makes sense really. And in a way it makes sense from a delivery standpoint. All the parts are there, programming done, just get the license and make 25 special ones. Even fits that weird part of the ARA story where they were gonna have 50 of game 2 made.
If game 2 were a brand new theme/game, this would start feeling jpopish. If they announced Pulp Fiction or Trailer Park Boys and wanted full pay pre-order money it would sound like a Hail Mary plan or Jpop scheme. Trying to generate extra cash from a special BOP is at least less stupid than a second brand new pin. I guess.
I don't care who they signed a tentative contract with and what the fuck they make. I don't care if they make fucking space shuttles. There won't be 50 dumb motherfuckers that buy a $12,500, 1991, 26th ranked, BOP to bail DP out on TBL. You could buy virtually any top ten HEP restored pin for that kind of money. And get it tomorrow. Don't get me wrong. I hope 50 people line up and buy this pipe dream so that I can get delivery of my TBL, but it ain't gonna happen.
Rensh and others, who are good pinsiders, but are acting as apologists for DP, please reconsider your stance on this unless you have some actual information to share. Actual information would be a copy of the fucking ARA contract or emails that show ARA actually acted in the manner that DP has described. I would LOVE to change my mind about this based on actual information.
So far all we have been hearing is what DP has been saying about ARA. I am sure ARA has a side to this story as well and I bet that ARA is probably pretty sure they will prevail. They have been a CM for a while and this was DP's first real go at it.
DP left out a couple of important milestones in their last newsletter - the part about them lying about the board issue while we were getting FUCKED would be a pretty important part of the fucking timeline. They have never been straight up about their delays and have flat out lied several times. We (especially me) have given them multiple passes. So someone, anyone, tell me why I should give a FUCK about how they describe the current situation?
The best thing DP could do at this juncture is to sell 100% of their interests/IP in the BOP and TBL projects to a company that can take the ball over the goal line and get this shit done. And they should get the fuck out of pinball manufacturing.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Calls to Universal licensing honchos start this week.
I'll be happy to call Bally as well to let them know what charlatans they've allowed to license their BOP I.P.
Will be weighing my legal options as well.
I would prefer to just get a refund and be done with this garbage hobby forever.
Not sure "burning the house down" is the best option, even in the Post-Dude era of TBL.
Better Options Part 1
Any better options out there need to start with Jaap and Barry washing down a truth pill with a big glass of truth serum while bathing in a truth fountain and getting a truth enema.
We don't know if ARA broke the contact. We don't know if there is a big unpaid bill at ARA, if DP is out of money (I suspect this is the case, but how bad is it?), we have no idea what the Universal contract looks like, and we sure as hell don't know if DP is even suing ARA or the other way around. So what if they sign a new contract with a new manufacturer? It means NOTHING. You just can't believe anything Jaap says now.
So any possible solutions would need to begin with a trusted 3rd party, preferably someone in the pinball community with an accounting and/or legal background to review DP's books and contracts and then reporting back. Sort of a legal/accounting version of their "Roger Sharpe" moment.
Better Options - Part 2
So, assuming DP decides to have a third party come in and verify things for the Early Aggrieved (have to keep a little sense of humor), there could be a couple of options:
Option 1 - Cough up an extra $1000, get the production line rolling again, and receive your game. I am not even sure this is a real option and I would never send a damn dime unless they went through with Part 1.
Option 2 - The findings in Part 1 show that $1000 won't help, but there are enough assets in the company (hostage games, unused parts, BOP project, IP) that another company could purchase DP's assets and make enough money on the unbuilt games to make it worth their while. It gets DP out of the picture and gets a game (that by all accounts, is pretty awesome) into the hands of a real pinball manufacturer. PPS could do it.
Suing DP, DP suing ARA, DP having to spend money fighting Universal, etc are all recipes for no TBL. They don't have the money for any of that stuff. They need to work this out with ARA ASAP and without going to court.
Jaap talking about a months or years long legal battle is bullshit. They don't have the money for it and probably don't have the case for it either. They just need to suck it up and work it out, even if they don't like it or they wind up with nothing and become Pinball Pariahs.
Quoted from rubberducks:
That's not how these things work. You can't just say stuff like that and have it magically happen.
If what they say about events that transpired is true, then they clearly were very accommodating and tried to work things out with ARA.
That time is long past.
There's not going to be anything useful that comes of this without legal negotiations and perhaps ultimately a court case. There wouldn't be a situation where ARA are holding games and parts hostage, and DP refusing to pay them if the two parties hadn't completely fallen out.
This is exactly how these things work out. Businesses, on advice from their attorneys or not, frequently work out things out without going to court. 99.9% of the time. There isn't enough money on the line for either entity for a court battle.
The major problem with your post is this phrase:
"If what they say about events that transpired is true, then they clearly were very accommodating and tried to work things out with ARA."
Quoted from sd_tom:
You all have a right to feel upset. There isn't a pile of money laying around for refunds though, as Jaap said.. they have already bought the OEM parts for 300 games.. $100k in PROCs alone sitting at ARA, that they say they can't get at. Which is also why they cant move production elsewhere. So TBL is completely seized up.
So, I know everyone wants different things right now and feelings are raw but feels like the pressure is best applied in getting the situation with ARA moving again.
Agree totally the bop3.0 is totally tone deaf
I am not sure they bought OEM parts for all 300 games, can't go on what Jaap says. I believe they are seized up though and that ARA holds all the cards.
By "suck it up and work it out" I mean DP will not get everything they want out of the deal, will have to take some lumps, will have to come clean to it's customers, and may even have to sell all or part of their company. They should do this anyway and just stay in the design side. Let others handle 100% of the business side.
But I believe this is salvageable if they start doing the right things.
Quoted from sd_tom:
There was a video from the factory, rensh I think took a video tour. .. he walked down a row of boxes and they had numbers on them like '240-260' and the last one was 300. So they've sourced parts for 300.. all parts, who knows. Gert mentioned he had hand painted all 300 cars already.
Did you shake the boxes? Just kidding, but that is good info to know. I would bet that they ran at least 300 play fields as well.
I like that a lot of the parts are there and have been bought. There isn't anything more productive than making them into pinball machines. That and 50-60 already delivered machines is a major way this differs from some of the other pinball scandals.
They can still save themselves from becoming Pinball Pariahs. But they have to work harder at it than they are currently.
Rubberducks, you are a good dude and I am not trying to argue with you.
People in business, even in two businesses that become short term adversaries, will often talk with each other sans attorneys, work out a deal and then let the attorneys paper it. It is the cheaper and faster way to go. When two companies only let their lawyers talk, it slows things down, is super expensive (attorneys get paid to talk and write letters, not make pinball machines), and can result in one side running out of money or a court case, which is likely not gonna be in DP's favor.
I base this assumption (court case not in DPs favor) on the poor way in which DP has continually handled the business side of their project. I cannot imagine that all of sudden they became business experts on contracting with contract manufacturers, the one thing they knew the least about in the whole process.
As far as going on what Jaap says, well that ship has sailed. About 5 times, lol.
I still think they are in a position to take some lumps right now and get the project moving, but time is not likely on their side. If $1000 per unit gets the assembly line moving, then they should PROVE IT with a third party, and see how many takers they have.
Quoted from rubberducks:
I think you're grossly underestimating how bad relations are between the two parties.
A stalemate of months where one party refuses to ship games (and holds parts hostage which they do not legally own), whilst the other party refuses to pay for shipment of completed or future product ... that's pretty much as bad as it could get.
Negotiations without counsel present or directly acting as advocates, at this stage, would be extremely inadvisable for both parties.
First of all, we don't know who owns the parts at this point. I would imagine that the project is secured in part by the parts on hand. For sure, since we haven't read the contract, we have no idea who owns the parts.
If you read Jaap's letter carefully, you will find that in part of the timeline, they "find out that ARA hasn't ordered a single part for BOP". That suggests to me that perhaps ARA buys parts and may not have been paid. It's also a kick in the balls to TBL owners that DP was (supposedly) gambling money they didn't have on 50 pins no one ordered. It also sounds a lot like bullshit.
Lastly, you may notice in the timeline (and again, I am doubting Jaap's description of everything at this point) that the delivery timeframes, even in his description, were always exceeded. Why? ARA? Probably not. DP - Re-design? Changes? Going to manufacturing too early? Starting/stopping? Missing design deadlines? Signing a manufacturing contract too early? Maybe.
The assembly pricing timeframes are not open ended and the contract would explicitly state those timeframes. When the changes in design or just delays by DP push the date, then that is likely a legit opportunity for ARA to change pricing.
At any rate, I don't care who's responsibility it is at this point (hint, it's DPs even if ARA shit the bed), I'm more concerned about progress from where we are.
I still say DP needs a 3rd party to audit their contracts and finances and let the Early Aggrieved know where they stand. From there they can tell us what it would cost to get the project moving. Let us know if the $1000/game is a real figure that can solve the problem or just more bullshit.
Sorry ducks, we will just have to disagree. If they had the money to develop BOP25, they could have finished TBL. It's clearly BS that they were going to fund, out of their own pocket, a 50 unit surprise run of a machine no one ordered last fall.
It's still not clear at all who owns parts at ARA. If it were, DP could bring in the cops and take possession. I bet it's illegal for ARA to keep something they have no claim on. ARA has all the aces and DP keeps bluffing.
Quoted from DerRoland:
I´m really sorry for all, who have their worthy money in this trouble. I jumped of the train at philgate.
After reading the last NSNL ("march: silence") I like the idea of a 3rd known enthusiast trustee, who deal with the 2 companies and spell dutch.
Well, I suggest Jonathan Joosten. He could/should help, to break the silence.
I am still liking the 3rd party option. Especially if DP and ARA are involved in a pissing contest. So who is Mr. Joosten and how can he help us?
I PM'd DerRoland and asked about Mr. Joosten. I will report back.
Next, I think it might be a good idea to contact ARA. Anyone here speak Dutch?
Lastly, it might not be a bad idea if these things fail, to pony up a few bucks between us all and have a Dutch attorney write a letter for us to both parties.
Quoted from Mike_M:
Again, just my interpretation of what Jaap said (he was talking off of same very basic bullet point slides)
- Build a small amount of (SLE) BOP3.0 machines with the new contract manufacturer
- If that's successful build a larger run of BOP3.0 machines with the same new contract manufacturer
- If that's successful build the TBLs with the same new contract manufacturer
The whole BOP 3.0 thing is pure insanity in my opinion. $12.5 for a BOP? Come on.
That is about the dumbest plan I have ever heard. The part he left out was he will take the loot from the BOP25 scheme and pay ARA what owes so that he CAN take the parts and pay the new CM. Even if this plan worked, it is over year away at best.
I would really appreaciate it if Jaap would stop spending our money on plane tickets to Texas and dumbass personal pinball fantasy projects and redirect it to the project we hired him to do in the first place.
The Netherlands has universal health coverage. They don't have to hold bake sales or depend on charity to take care of sick children.
Write offs don't offset cash loss/expense on a 1 basis, so they aren't as valuable as the cash itself. ARA is owed money that DP hasn't paid, maybe doesn't have. If we decided to pay it on their behalf in some manner to free the 40 built machines and parts, I am not sure it makes any sense for ARA to be in the Pinball Charity business. This is a neat idea, but not our best idea maybe.
Lastly, tying this into a prevention of DP from engaging in pinball business - however deserving that idea sounds to us all - ain't gonna work. Let your future dollars take care of that one.
I like the ideas of getting Joosten to intervene and see what he can do - the most friendly and least costly. Does he have a business/financial background?
If Joosten doesn't work out, we can pool some resources and find a Dutch lawyer maybe to help sort this out.
Hey guys - This is from the other thread. Jonathan Joosten aka Unigroove on pinside has agreed to act as an outside party to speak with DP and ARA. Jonathan is big in the pinball community in the Netherlands and owns the magazine over there. He was nice enough to volunteer his time to help. I don't know if it will help or not. I wrote him this in the other thread:
This is a list for Jonathan Joosten aka Unigroove on pinside.
First, thank you so much for being willing to intervene and act as an outside party between DP, ARA, and the Unfulfilled Achievers (those of us who have paid for a TBL, but not yet received one).
Emotions and ideas are all over the board on this issue - ranging from class action lawsuits (not a fan) to pitchforks and torches. I am not speaking for everyone in this letter and others may chime in and add to or throw darts at what I write.
I am sure you know more than the average person about this problem, but will give a short summary anyway. Our main problem is that we do not have a machine and we have been unable to get straight answers from DP on why the machines have been held up. Jaap has lied to us on several occasions regarding these reasons and therefore anything he now says is viewed with suspicion and distrust. The most egregious and recent example was late last year when he blamed the hold up on board issues. He has since admitted that was a lie.
We have heard a small amount of information from ARA and from their point of view, money was the hold up. We don't know how much or what the terms are. From ARA, we would like to know what the severity and nature of the problem is. I can't think of a legal reason for them to withhold at least a summary of that information from us. We would also like to know if they are currently suing DP, how many machines are built and boxed up, and how many complete machines can be built from the parts they have on hand. Does ARA have an ownership position in these parts, or could they be moved to a new manufacturer if ARA and DP cannot come to terms? If they have an ownership position, how much money? And if it is not too much to ask, it would be nice. For us to have a contact person at ARA or get some information from them that corroborates anything that DP says if they decide to work together again.
From DP, we would like a new spokesperson. We have lost complete confidence in anything that Jaap tells us and need someone who is going to shoot completely straight. We would like to know what their cash position is and if they owe money to anyone but ARA (parts vendors). We would like to know what DP believes they owe ARA and what they believe they have in inventory in regards to completed but undelivered machines and parts that could be utilized to build new machines. There is no legal reason they cannot share this information with us, only embarrassment reasons.
This is probably a question for ARA and DP - There are approximately 150 TBLs that only have a $1000 deposit on them and presumably do not have parts ordered yet. Could these machines be built at a new contract manufacturer (maybe even in the states) and the proceeds from those machines be utilized to satisfy the debt at ARA and get that line moving again?
Lastly, let DP know that it is no secret that they are essentially having a money issue. In general there are still enough Achievers out here that are willing to work with them on this, but the 'work with' part has to happen soon and with more transparency than we are currently receiving. We generally believe that the fastest way to get these machines done is through ARA and DP working through this without suing each other.
There are some very upset clients over here that are planning on hiring attorneys and in general creating more headaches and legal problems for them. If they act quickly, they can head this off. But I can assure DP that if all they are going to do is hand us emails like the last one we got and then move on to new projects, that this could get messy quickly.
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:
"There are approximately 150 TBLs that only have a $1000 deposit on them and presumably do not have parts ordered yet."
I'm fully paid (had to pay extra for rug and chrome plus price increase) at #190. It looks like there aren't parts on hand to build my TBL.
There's a lot of talk about just paying an extra $1,000 to get machines built. I technically have already.
Sorry Hoss - I am shaky on all those numbers for sure. If anyone has a better breakdown of the fully paid vs deposit only, that would be super helpful. My letter was just to get the ball rolling in a direction. This kind of feedback helps a lot, thanks.
I definitely agree but DP pushed us into the post-Dude era of this project. Keeping them afloat and the dream alive is why I'm pushing for the outside party route first. They could get this figured out, but they gotta start acting more like the dude and a lot less like Mr. Lebowski first.
Also, patience and trust isn't rewarded well in the small boutique pinball company world. Time for truth and transparency.
Quoted from EternalLife:
Rarehero, you need to calm the f*ck down. RTR, being a hothead accomplishes nothing. I'm only saying lets work with DP to solve whatever issue there is to get this back on track. Code's not finished, want a half coded game? I want to work with the guys to make this dream a reality. It's too great a game to not see it through..
If you will read my letter to Unigroove, you will see that I'm anything but a hot head. I believe the path forward is through DP and ARA getting these games done together.
I did have an F-bomb laden post much earlier in the thread (ok, maybe a little bit of a hot head moment), but it was on point and witty.
Quoted from lamihh:
DP is dead and they know it
DP is not dead dude, just in a self induced coma.
There are games in boxes, parts in boxes, working games in the field, and parties interested in getting the games into the hands of the owners. That's why we are getting the paddles out!
Quoted from Rensh:
Another point to think about. When DP came to ARA with a million+ dollar undertaking and being a startup, do you really think that ARA would just say come on in, we will worry about the money later. For sure they did their research and DP had to play it very open with open books to get it even started-going.
So ARA would only start this whole project knowing they could get paid at the end. However, than you don't held up to your end of the bargain, eg deliver the pins in 2015, but delay and delay and put other customers upfront. This makes DP look bad in our eyes but it also causes to see TBL funds slowly decrease. Still ARA doesn't act so they think they still can be paid. Than june 2016 they recalculate the figures (for a 3rd time: made price in april 2015 and again in may 2015, guessing that the production of the engineering samples in 2015 learned them this) and find out they need more money to make a profit.
They are not looking for ways to decrease costs (speed up building, buying parts in larger quantities to reduce costs, etc), take their responsibility (it's their miscalculation after all) but turn (again) to DP. DP accepts IF they get the TBLs in 2016 out of the door plus additional 50 pcs BoP3.
These Bops are paid by CT and Nitro for sure (no pre ordering after all) and generate profit in order to overcome the price increase from ARA. So DP was reasonable sure to get an income from CT and Nitro.
Than it takes Ara some time to get the invoice out of the shipment of 21 pcs TBL end july, it has a payment term and during the payment term it turns out in october that 1) production TBL is not stepped up and 2) parts for Bop3 have not been ordered (so the needed money to pay for the price-increase will not come). So ARA f*cks with DP again and leaving them hanging. DP than refuses to pay the higher invoice and here we are. Looking at the history of proven unreliability from ARA I can't really blame them. I am even getting the feeling that if they were paid for the 70-90? pcs (dependable if april batch TBL of approx 21 pcs is paid yes-no) ARA would just stop production and leaving 210 buyers without anything.
Even if DP is now short of even the Original agreed amount this is also due to the fact that TBL is overdue like over a year and 3 persons living for a year costs money. This is a year where the delay causes DP to not get fresh money in the door. Who is to blame here? ARA. People will now state DP has done design changes causes the delay and I dare them : point to me where these DESIGNchanges are? Have the ramps moved from left to right? Has the upper playfield become a bottom playfield? Yes, there have been manufactureing changes made by ARA because there original ideas for how to make a reliable rugtoy for instance were proven to be not errorfree. This is a MANUFACTURERchange responsibility ARA, not DP
And yes, we have bought our TBL with DP, not ARA. So we totally shouldnt care if DP or ARA is to blame because from a customer view its always DP. But this is not how it works unfortunately. If a small company has this kind of problems it also becomes the problem of the customer
The above is ofcourse based on stories-newsletters from DP, not on written proof or talks with ARA. So it may be worth nothing or everything.
The one interesting new tidbit, if I understand it, is that CT and Nitro are buying BOPs outright and then selling them? Is that correct?
Quoted from mgpasman:
Why would it still be required (to sell extra machines) to bring in extra cash, now that the Extortionist at ARA is gone? One would think they would now honor the original contract.
If they have nothing to do while all this is going on, they may as well plan their next project. A BOP project makes the most sense - least development time, street cred already there on BOP. Now the 12,500 tag is still whack and prob kills it, but the planning of a BOPr isn't 100% dumb.
It would be nice to see some communication from ARA that corroborates the DP view of the situation. I am sure they want to sell machines (get paid).
I don't know all the details but percentage wise, it's not a bad deal, DP needs to take it. It's really their only hope. They need someone to take a lot of the operational aspects off their hands. They can focus on sales, creative aspects, and future projects knowing that they are backed financially and operationally. If they had done this long ago we would all have our TBLs and our Pulp Fictions by now.
Gary Stern has the same kind of deal (although he probably owns a lot less than 49%) and he seems to do ok.
I've been pretty patient, but damn this is getting old. If DP wants to be an ongoing business (and I hope they do), they need to make a deal with ARA or someone and soon.
No one will want to do business with an unpartnered/unfinancially backed DP on future projects regardless of how this shit show ends.
They are full of shit.
How do they propose paying a new CM? How will they get the parts and machines released? When was the Early Achiever advice poll taken?
What CM would agree to build these machines without money up front? DP has no leverage with ARA. Except this imaginary lawsuit that is so much in their favor - and such a slam fucking dunk - that they have decided not to pursue it. Whew, lucky for ARA! A close shave!!
The only way they proceed with a new CM is with a new financial partner. And I don't know anyone that would put in that kind of money without a controlling interest or a management agreement that puts them in charge.
And lastly, companies buy businesses to make money, not shut them down. I doubt that the private equity company that bought Stern was a pinball manufacturer. They just like making money. DP should pursue an agreement like that, accept (graciously) a minority interest and see if they can remain a company.
Quoted from Toucanf16:
I think some big egos are involved here. Did they really poll all the early achievers? It's hard to beleave only 2-3 support option 1.
See the poll and commentary here:
There are plenty more than 2-3 people who are for DP gaining a financial partner/investor.
They have been aiming their gun for 8 months now. It may be time to pull the trigger.
IF DP had money, they would never even have considered a 51% stake for ARA. That pretty much tells the whole story right there.
I don't even think there was a negotiation. DP told no stories about trying to create a contract that addressed their concerns.
Quoted from unigroove:
Well, I'm not looking to risk that. I'm just trying to look at the situation with some common sense, although it appears this may be the wrong place for that There's no point in assuming and speculating as it literaly won't do anything for you, except maybe raise your bloodpressure. Seriously, can anyone name a good example of a situation where they didn't have any control over, yet stirring up a pot on a public forum (that the people in charge of the situation aren't even looking at) solved everything?
Assuming and speculating will not get games made any sooner. So why bother? The only people who can work on a solution are Barry and Jaap. As far as I can tell they are trying to the best of their capabilities to find a solution to get games build, as they have mentioned before. It may not go as fast as you like, but it won't go any faster by speculating, or getting upset about not getting a refund. So what's the point? It's like being stuck in traffic. You can go crazy all you want in your car, but does that help moving the traffic any faster? Or do you just go along with the flow? I prefer to go with the flow.
I get that some people are dissapointed. I've been supporting DP since day 1. They were a fresh breeze in the industry. The game they designed kicks ass. Guess what: I have a game on order that hasn't even been build, so I'm in the same boat as the other Achievers. Sure I wonder whether things will work out, and I certainly hope they do, but whether they do or don't is not in my hands.
Have to agree with EternalLife. Based on what I know I still find it odd all the anger seems to be pointed at DP, who are trying to find a solution, while ARA are the ones to blame for the current mess. It's like hitting the mechanic working on your car with a bat to get him to hurry up. Obviously that's not helping. Sure I understand the reasoning that we bought a product from DP, not ARA, but if you know DP is trying their best and ARA hasn't been very cooperative, does it make sense to bash DP while they are trying to find a solution?
Let's just see if this week's newsletter will bring some news.
Unigroove - just so we all know we are the same footing. Would you mind sharing what you have paid thus far for your TBL preorder that you have not received yet?
Quoted from unigroove:
Interessant. Maar hoe zit het als je als klant (DP) een product besteld bij een fabrikant (ARA), een prijs overeenkomt en de fabrikant ineens meer geld wil?
New subject, in regards to this comment, the manufacturer I purchsed my game from was DP. What one of their subs did is not relevant to me, even though DP has made it my problem at this point.
Bad management of the process by DP perhaps, but their fault, not mine.
Quoted from eggbert52:
So wait, you don't actually OWN the game? Why is it in your lineup then? Also, is that you selling a "spot" for $8,500? That's just as fraudulent as JPop, DP and Skit B themselves.
Since I can't quote Trailer Park Boys anymore, I will address your concern.
I was #19 - very early in the process. Big supporter. My game was delivered to Cointaker and sitting in their warehouse. Since I was refinishing my basement, I had all but 3 of my games in storage and no room for my TBL.
DP announced the board problem, said it was slowing things down a bit. But everything seemed positive at that time. Based upon that positivity and confidence in the company (confidence based on what they were doing and saying at the time), I chose to allow concrethardt to take delivery of my machine and I swapped for his fully paid preorder at #141ish.
Needless to say, I am not happy about that. Had DP been honest about what was going on, I would still have my machine. And no, my preorder spot is not for sale anywhere.
Quoted from eggbert52:
Dude, 95% of my comments are tongue in cheek. However, as my blood pressure remains nice and low it's entertaining to see others so affected. Others have made similar comments to me regarding putting Houdini, etc. in my lineup and again, my blood pressure stays low. It's a freaking pinball board, not cancer.
And by the way, I have no preconceived notions that my TBL is actually going to sell for $18K. To be honest, I don't need the money and would rather see DP succeed so I can play the game without worrying about breaking a part.
Calmer than you, dude.
Quoted from Nikonokin:
Here is your weekly update from Dutch Pinball BV, regarding the production process of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.
Last week we informed you that we thought there were 2 groups. We based this on the emails that we received and the reactions of the people that we talked to. Looking at the reactions not all of you were happy that we talked about only 2 groups and about the size of the groups. We are sorry if we offended you. We tried to reflect the reactions of the people we talked to.
We understand everyone wants their TBL and that you are tired of waiting. We are too!
And that’s where the good news comes in: one of our alternative contract manufacturers is very, very enthusiastic and informed us that they want to make a serious quotation. Please know, that making a quotation is very complicated since our game has about 600 unique parts that they have to quote. They expect that making this quote will take them about three/four weeks so we have to be patient, but the good news is that they are very interested and are willing to take step 2. By the way: we haven’t heard a word from ARA and we believe it is best to move on with a new, reliable partner.
We understand that a weekly update is not enough. We therefore have planned a webinar on Monday June 19th. We (Barry and Jaap) will give you an update about the production of TBL and also do a Q & A session. We probably will start at 6PM CET/Amsterdam time (this is 12AM EST and 9AM PDT). Next week you will receive more details about this webinar.
That’s all for now. Thank you for your great, continues support and till next time!
Barry & Jaap
This creates more questions than answers for me, but I do like that they are having to address us more. I wish they would put me back on the mailing list.
Our emails to them and posts on pinside are helping to hold them accountable. That's why they have Unigroove talking to us on this thread I guess. When it was clear that Unigroove doubling down on their views wasn't enough, we get more frequent updates and a Q/A call.
Although the forum feedback is good, it's important that we keep DP informed of our views on this via email directly to them, so keep it up dudes!
Quoted from knockerlover:
For a change? You don't know me and can't make statements like that. Also, put your story out there before you go making personal attacks.
Highdef and dergoetz. I didn't suggest we should send them money cart Blanche or invest financially any more. But I do know that there is much we are capable of. But we can't help if we don't know what the problems are. If DP is gearing up for a webinar, I want to know the full truth. If I get it I'll do everything I can to help.
I know that being invested fullly since oct 2014 sucks, and I'm truly sorry that you guys are experiencing that. But I am damn near certain that the headhunting, threats, pot stirring, and negativity against them is going to fix absolutely nothing.
DP, put your cards in the table. Let's either gear up or move on.
Unfortunately, the pot stirring is the only thing that has given us any new and accurate information. This entire shit show would be more tolerable if our partner (DP) was a straight shooter. They are not.
Quoted from DavidPinballWizz:
I think Aeneas nailed it... after I read the post, I thought, yes that's exactly what ARA or N is doing/hopoing right now. So this should be avoided. Hopefully they have a solid (enough) contract to sue ARA.
I think the anti-ARA theories are way off. The partnership ONLY makes sense if the 300 (or more) run is completed. The hostage games have already been paid for and DP is either sitting on or have spent that money. Probably the latter.
Some expensive parts for all 300 games have already been purchased - play fields, p-rocs, boards, and more. I think ARA fronted a lot of that money.
Cointaker and others are sitting on deposits for approximately 150 games that only have deposits and were sold for $9500 USD. Upon completion, ARA and DP would receive $1,425,000. And that is for games for which many of the parts have been paid for already.
Thank goodness these were not pre-pays, it is the unbuilt 150+ games that could save this deal.
"But ARA is not a pinball company"
Great, I agree. DP and ARA could agree to joint venture only on the TBL project. The run gets done, DP remains a company and ARA is made whole. And they part ways.
The split could still be 51/49 so ARA feels in control and any other concerns could be addressed in the contract. So far it really does not (from DP communications) seem like there has been any real negotiations or compromise discussed.
There are ways to do this dude. I could get you an agreement by 3:00.
"But ARA will take all the money and shut things down and no one will get their games"
#1 - the deal doesn't make sense unless all the games get made. The unbuilt games are where they all get paid.
Any money transferred from DP at the beginning (if there is money) goes into third party escrow. Contractual terms cover how money is released.
True, the distributors get a cut, but the fact remains that the money is in the unbuilt machines. Were it not for them, I would have stuck a fork in this hot mess months ago.
I don't see a scenario where a new CM is utilized, but I'm open to it. Someone will need to explain where the money comes from though. And it does not happen without a sign off from ARA. No CM will front DP sh$t with a big suit from ARA pending.
My 150 number is somewhat made up, someone correct me if I am wrong.
Quoted from TigerLaw:
I love the idea. Have a voting trust control the 2% and have the Coin Taker guy speak on behalf of the 2%, everyone would trust him to represent the desires for the games to be made.
I like it too, but would never happen. A great thought for any future pre-order business model.
Lots of posts, but bottom line is the value is in the unbuilt and unpaid for machines. It's the only leverage that DP has to persuade ARA or a new CM to work with them.
Quoted from Rensh:
I am 163 and payed eur 7500 equal to now usd 8500 which I think all first achievers paid. This incl 21% VAT so DP only sees usd 7000.
Pls do note my price is ex factory. So no shipping and imports costs to US were to be considered by DP
I am putting a placeholder on this as it might be news. Are you saying that DP charged you 8500, is paying VAT out of their end, and only nets $7000 usd out of their end?
Quoted from Jvspin:
If the machine was payed for in 2014 I think DP would have netted close to $8500 usd at that time. The value of the euro has dropped quite a bit compared to the dollar since then.
My question is less about the value of the euro and dollar at the time and more about who paid VAT - DP or the customer? If "DP", then non-VAT customers were perhaps subsidizing the VAT differential. If everyone paid the same, but for VAT customers, VAT was netted out of the 8500 USD, then that might be a problem.
That leads to a whole different line of questioning. If DP nets out VAT, did they pay it right away? Or did they plan on paying as the machines were delivered? A great question for the QA period. Hopefully it is a non-issue.
Quoted from Rensh:
Sorry Burningman but I have to disagree in this one. So much nonsense is said in this threat coming from people with no skin in the game that following this threat without getting emotional attached and disrupted is difficult.
DP only has to report to the achievers and they can always contact Barry and Jaap via mail. Towards them DP has an obligation and only them.
And yes, you can state you are also stressed because of your money but don't you think DP is already stressed enough in regard to this situation without the name calling on a forum?
I understand the reason for webcare teams but a forum like this is beyond webcare .
Pls do note I still love you even if we have a different opinion on this one
I will have to disagree here Ren. Plenty of the "nonsense" is coming directly from EA's, those that have laid down deposits, and good dudes that have been fervent supporters and even DP apologists.
I've owned several companies and would have LOVED to have a forum where my clients thoughts - good or bad - were freely expressed for me to read..
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:
My questions just emailed to Barry and Jaap for their consideration in responding to in next Monday's session (FWIW):
1. How many total TBL games have been built by ARA to date?
2. How many TBL games are currently ready to ship, but are being held by ARA?
3. At a minimum, what has to happen in order for the existing TBL games being held by ARA to be shipped?
4. How does DP realistically propose to build TBL games through a different manufacturer?
5. What is DP’s proposed realistic timeline for building TBL games through a different manufacturer?
6. If DP doesn’t reach an agreement with ARA/Nivoge and ceases to exist, can ARA/Nivoge sell the TBL games and parts that they currently possess?
7. Does DP still propose to proceed with producing a BOP V3.0 game?
8. Does DP plan to continue to produce and provide code upgrades for TBL games?
DP and ARA/Nivoge Business Relationship
9. What are the details of DP’s dispute with ARA?
10. What are the details of ARA’s dispute with DP as you understand them?
11. How much responsibility is DP accepting for its current dispute with ARA?
12. What is DP’s current offer to ARA/Nivoge?
13. What is ARA/Nivoge’s current offer to DP?
14. What is the current status of discussions between DP and ARA/Nivoge?
15. How optimistic are you that an agreement with ARA/Nivoge that results in them manufacturing the remaining TBL Games, can be achieved this year? Ever?
16. Why can’t ARA/Nivoge and DP reach an agreement in which all remaining TBL games are guaranteed to be built and shipped even if ARA/Nivoge has majority ownership?
17. Is DP considering use of an independent third party to resolve their disagreement with ARA/Nivoge?
18. Is DP willing to allow ARA to provide its perspective regarding TBL games production to DP’s customers?
19. If ARA is in the wrong, than why doesn’t DP proceed with legal action against them?
DP’s Financial Health
20. What is the financial status (cash value) of DP?
21. What business assets does DP have?
22. Approximately what percentage of Barry and Jaap’s personal income has DP provided since Pinball Expo 2014?
23. Do Barry and Jaap have full-time income producing jobs outside of DP?
24. Does DP currently have any paid employees?
25. If so, how full-time and how many part-time?
26. Are there any other investors or business partners currently within DP?
27. Is DP considering bringing in new investor(s)?
28. What other viable options if any, does DP feel will enable TBL customers to receive their games?
29. What does DP propose that its TBL game customers do to best help resolve the current situation?
30. What guarantee(s) do “Early Achievers” have from DP that they are acting in good faith given that DP has admittedly lied to them in the past?
I think that about covers it. I might add in a question along the lines of "Has ARA filed any notice/letters to DP?" Maybe not worded correctly, but if DP is violating payments terms, ARA may not be forever patient. They might start pursuing their rights under the contract.
I missed the broadcast and don't really care to watch it. Sounds like DP only addressed those questions that they wanted to address.
Did they comment on whether ARA might (or has) sued them? If they choose to abandon their project with ARA, without suing them or formally alleging breach in some manner, that a lawsuit would certainly come from ARA/Nivoge direction.
Quoted from Hjbondar:
I was relieved, and surprised, that ARA pre-funded as much as they did. This would seem to put them in a position of less leverage.
I had the opposite reaction. If DP has not paid ARA very much, and they are still short on money, and they have 190 EA's fully paid - 50ish delivered, then they math starts not working. 140ish fully paid games at $8500 is a lot of cabbage - about 1.2m bucks. Not sure what the net is on that figure, but even if you assumed 20%, that is only $240k.
You see where I am going here. If they are out of or short on money, I don't think they have enough to build their way out of their hole.
I am severely disappointed that they did not reveal more details of their financial position. They are dancing all around it, but the questions will not be answered until that is revealed. They can talk all day if they want.
Sorry guys, this is gonna be a long one one. Did DP actually throw any numbers out at all? Please don't make me watch the video.
If we aren't talking actual numbers at this point, then we aren't really talking gang. The math is not that complicated. Many people posting on this thread haven't given the math a good thinkin'.
If DP collected money for 190 machines, that is about 1,615,000 bucks at $8,500 usd per machine. About 50 machines have been delivered. If DP spent X, then what they have left to completely build the remaining 140 EA games is 1,615,000 - X. This figure is what they have left to pay a new CM.
The first big question is what does X equal? Salaries for Jaap and Barry for 3 years and others for some period (are they still taking a salary - was that answered?)? Travel and promotion? Research/development? Splits with distributors for machines delivered? Payments to ARA (I'm sure they made some)? Taxes (you don't receive 1.6m bucks without paying the tax man)? Rent? Legal fees? Insurance? Telecom? Electric? Whatever the hell they spent developing BOP 25? Sexy bowling girl outfits?
Let's pretend that another number, Y, represents the potential net income that DP would realize off of a run of 250 machines (300 total, 50 already delivered). I have no earthly idea what Y might be. For the sake of argument let's say it's $2,000 per machine, even figuring in development and promotion costs. That would 500k. If Y=3,000 per machine, then 750k. I can't believe it would be more than that, but let's hope.
Point is that X is a number that is significant. And if X < Y = Big Problem ----- Especially in a new CM scenario. So unless they have saved a bunch of money, and kept X as small as possible, they are going to have a hard time striking a new deal with a new CM to start at machine # 51 and move forward fresh.
Hoping X > Y in a new CM scenario still only works if ARA does nothing. You think ARA will just sit on their hands and ditch parts or sell for scrap parts for 250 more machines they can't sell? If ARA decides to fight DP over this, it makes X a lot bigger and new CM or investor stepping in very unlikely.
IMO, DP and ARA have to work this out. Even if DP gets an investor, DP has to work with ARA. I find it super unlikely that ARA is in violation of the contract in such an egregious manner that DP has a slam dunk case - but they choose not to pursue it. Instead, they go the long way - start over from scratch? Does that make sense to any of you?
Quoted from highdef:
No one is perfect. It takes failure to succeed. Again, it's not like they vanished into thin air. I don't think a comparison to JPop or SkitB is a fair comparison.
I agree. They cranked out a small but successful run of machines working with ARA. They have the ability to salvage this for sure.
Quoted from Foxis:
I agree with the sentiment of your post, but *if* they know what they are doing you are wrong about taxation. The funds paid by preorder customer should have been marked as the short term debt that they are, as such they would not be profit and therefor not taxed. The taxation would happen when they realise the profit.
Not sure how it works there, but here - if you pay yourself a salary, in general you will be paying taxes of some form.
Would love to believe DP for sure. I have $8500 riding on it. I refer back to my numbers oriented post. They just don't seem to add up.
No way to tell who is right or wrong on the contract stuff without seeing the contract. Gotta go with what I do see. DP trying to walk on a contract where they are holding all the cards? Doesn't make sense.
Only thing that makes sense to me is that DP is trying to sell a big woof ticket to ARA/Nivoge to bring them back to the negotiating table and cut a better deal. And I hope it works.
I don't think Tigerlaw was suggesting this is a con. Just saying that sincerity is not an indicator either way. They were pretty sincere about how the board issue just needed to be fixed because they weren't the kind of company that would ship out machines with bad boards. People (some) were praising them for this move even though it would take extra time. Remember how that turned out?
Also - it doesn't even have to be a con to be bad for us. It could just be continuous bad business decisions that allow the slow draining away of the funds that could save this project. They can be sincere and heartfelt all the way down.
Quoted from rubberducks:
If one is to assume that something is rotten, then it would be a pretty weird con given that a third of the money is being held by CT, and DP haven't taken any new money in 2 years.
Can you tell me what you mean by CT is holding a third of the money? I don't think that is correct.
And if sincerity is their strongest virtue now, they could sincerely share some details of their financial position. Is it true they are taking salaries still? Were the 50 machines that were released paid for by them to ARA? Was it 50 machines? I could make a list. Plenty they could share w/o feeling violated. Heck, this is essentially a kickstarter, they share financial information all the time.
It would make a difference if I knew they had enough money to enact their "new CM" plan.
Ok, so I agree with you guys that the unpaid for machines are what can salvage this operation, I've mentioned that before.
Where I start to disagree is in regards to DPs stated plan. It is good to know they at least admitted they dont have enough money to build the 150 paid for machines. Sounds like they may have enough money to get a new CM through the pre-production process (development/prototypes/testing again). And that's if a new CM comes back with a figure that fits inside the TBL build budget.
From there I have a hard time believing anyone will loan DP enough money to build the 150 machines. Look at the business plan. Sticking with an overall net of 20% per unit on this project, the numbers can work, but it's a really tough road. The 150 machines that have already been paid for would have to be paid by loan, loan has to be repaid by profit on next batch of machines (bc ZERO money comes in on the first 150 units).
And they don't need to borrow enough money to build 150 machines, the first 150 pay ZERO money to them. They need enough to build the Cointaker machines too. So a loan for 250 machines so that they can actually start collecting money.
If 20% net per unit is correct (and I think it's less) they have to sell around 5 new units for every 1 of the 150 to break even. So they have to have a total run of somewhere around 750 plus 150 to build their way out of this with a new CM. 900 TBLs. That's a pretty big run, I'd certainly be glad if that happened!
Skins post beat me by a minute, but I am glad to see another person thinking about actual numbers and not forming an opinion based on DP sincerity.
For those of you wringing hands over the 'secrecy' needed and if ARA reads pinside, well don't worry. ARA knows about 100 times more about the situation than all of us together. And they own calculators too.
Quoted from rubberducks:
I could be wrong, but I just don't see banks providing large enough loans at this stage, at least not without another party underwriting some of the risk or matching some of the loan with investment in exchange for equity. Interest rates are so low, and the risk given the background would be large for the lender. So if they were to provide loans, I'd expect them to have much, much higher-than-market premiums. Perhaps DP have made preliminary approaches and received good news, though ... who knows.
I don't think anyone loans DP money with the ARA contract in dispute and unsettled. But to your point, the business plan probably kills it.
Bottom line - DP needs to work this out with ARA. It's the cheapest and fastest route. Time really does mean money for them. I'm sticking with the woof ticket theory for now.
Quoted from Nikonokin:
I actually found the live stream helpful, sincere. It changed my stance. Yeah, this is not ideal, but tearing them down isn't going to help the matter. Here's what I sent to the guys:
"I'd like to apologize for my refund request earlier day. I'm emotional about the potential loss of my 8500 bucks. However, after listening again to your live stream...I'M IN. I want to see TBL through. I appreciate the nightmare you are in, and I will be in it, and shut my mouth, and let you work through it. Also, FUCK ARA! And their horseshit manipulative parent company. 51%....HA! They can eat 51% of our dick! I'm glad you didn't take the deal, and believe you tried to do what is in all of our best interests.
Thanks for the better communication, the live stream, the weekly updates...it helps. Eagerly and respectfully awaiting TBL #52, I believe in you guys, your dream is our collective dream, and I want to see it come to fruition. You can do it. - #52"
I've felt some of this too, we've all (EA's, lovers of the theme) been emotionally involved in this process. No one was a bigger unpaid supporter/promoter than me!
But at some point I gotta quit thinking with my flippers and start thinking with my coin mech.
Quoted from Nikonokin:
They're still in business, aren't they?! I've said it before...this thread is hazardous to your health.
DP doesn't answer my emails anymore and has taken me off the distribution list for some reason. If one of you who is still in good standing cares to submit a question and report back, here is a great legit question to ask:
In your new business plan with a new CM, it seems as though your profit will have to come from the unpaid for machines that are on deposit. This profit will have to pay for the build of the 150 machines that have been fully paid, the build of the deposit machines, distributor share, regular overhead, and presumably your salaries over the next 2-3 years.
Have you done the math on how many machines (beyond the 150 left to make that have been fully paid) it will take for you to hit breakeven? You only have 110 additional machines with a no strings/fully refundable deposit through CT/Nitro. How many additional units will you have to sell to make the numbers work?
They aren't bankable in my opinion. They need an equity partner. They have some options.
They can come back to the table with ARA. ARA can take a stake in the company (not sure DP cares to do this) or a larger stake in this project. They can work out an operating agreement that both parties can live with for the duration of the project.
Other option, and maybe best, they could find an investor that is financially stable and bankable. That investor could come to the ARA table and suggest a haircut for ARA, but provide a path forward through this mess.
This doesn't happen without some level of ARA involvement. No one lends money - banks, angels, lottery winners, rich uncles - to someone that has an unresolved, unpaid 600k+ bill.
Quoted from rubberducks:
They do, all the time.
Let me amend my 'no loaning money' comment Rubberducks. No one lends money to someone with an unresolved, unpaid, 600k debt when that entity also has no business plan or pathway to profitability.
I still say the TBLs do not get built without some sort of ARA resolution:
1. ARA will either have to build them - DP and ARA both put their big boy pants on and resolve their differences. Maybe with a 3rd party investor or not. Probably best scenario for everyone.
2. To get to a new CM solution, DP has to borrow a lot of money. The investor/bank will want some sort of settlement to relieve them and DP of the threat of a suit from ARA regarding the contract. So an out of court settlement will need to be reached. Possibly releasing hostage games and parts to the new CM.
3. The contractual dispute will need to be resolved in the court prior to moving forward with any other plan. Unless, Barry and Jaap are independently wealthy and decide to fund it themselves. Or if they find an investor that doesn't care about ROI or default.
Quoted from rubberducks:
It's been at least 8 months they've been in dispute, possibly a lot longer with frayed relations ... they've got absolutely nowhere in that time.
It could be entirely DP and or the advice of their business consultant / lawyer that is to blame for a situation that could have been resolved. But if that's so, then what confidence do you have of them finding a solution now? If it's not all their fault, and I suspect the truth lies in the middle somewhere, same goes. They need to try to get a fresh start with another party, which appears to be what they're doing.
Odds are against them, but the odds will be a lot worse IMO if they spend the summer in more talks with ARA, and by September are still nowhere closer. The longer the down period, and the longer they spend in what have so far been futile talks with ARA, the less likely potential CMs are to give them the time of day, or banks or investors are to touch them. Can you imagine if they hammered out a deal with ARA, and then it broke down again just as production was supposed to resume, in - say - October? I think that would be the end.
They're more likely to have some kind of settlement with ARA if they find a new CM anyway. A deal with a new CM will reduce ARA's leverage and increase DP's. If ARA think DP can move forwards without them, then it's in their interests to come to an agreement about selling them or the new CM the parts and completed games. They can't sell any of them, or Universal will be breathing down their necks.
No one here knows if ARA or DP is really the bad guy. Maybe both since neither has apparently filed suit yet.
They can work it out for sure. Entities that hate each other can work together. Especially to finish out a contract and be done with each other.
I only go on what I see. Doesn't matter so much to me what DP says anymore. Heck, if ARA started talking it would interesting, but wouldn't mean much compared to their actions.
That neither party has sued the other thus far says a lot.
Quoted from KerryImming:
My estimate, based on experience putting together several playfields...
Assuming things are well-organized and parts like wire-harnesses pre-built, about 2 games per week.
Hmmmm, 104 games per year output. Rumor is Jaap and Barry together pull 80,000 euros a year out of the company. Puts the labor cost per machine at 769 euros, probably a lot cheaper than ARA. They love pinball so much and since this is their dream they wouldn't mind putting in the hours.
ARA - Please let Barry and Jaap have a corner of the warehouse. They will bring their own nut drivers. They can work this off in about 2 years - everyone whole!!
Quoted from dannylite:
"They're not broke" is a true statement. I guess what everyone is trying to figure out here is the math man. It's all about the fuckin math. Is half a mil enough to sign with a new CM and get these remaining ~100 games made and the ~40 that ARA is still holding hostage released and the ~50 that have already been delivered. (Subtract the ~50 from that equation) Does that even make sense financially? Is that gonna bring them into the light to make a 100+ more TBL's and onto the "real" 2nd title.
It's all about the math man. But you know what, sometimes it isn't. It's about the heart. Fuck math. Maybe that's bad business but where would we be without the dreamers of the world that are the ones that have always been strapped for cash but continue to perceive. They aren't packing up so I still have faith in DP. I just think the next build with a new CM is gonna be slightly different.
i.e more cost effective i.e no bowling mech i.e. just different. Let's hope they get it done no matter what.
I am hoping for parts and support. And backwards compatible White Russians.
Nunca Te Rindassssss DP!
I feel you man. But this is a math problem. Love and hope won't get us there.
And FTR, I want the game I paid for, not some scaled down version.
I would love for someone to make the case for DP to move on to a new CM and live happily ever after - using numbers and available real information. I would love to get behind that idea! I don't want it to be the that way I see it and would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be wrong.
Love of pinball, dreams, good intentions, eloquent ramblings that are not always true, ARA portrayed as boogy man (without ARA's side of the story), ignoring the financial contractual realities that we know (ARA/DP has a contract in place and there is no "DP walk away" provision lol), but embracing financial and contractual 'realities' that we don't (ARA would surely lose! DP isn't Broke!, ARA broke all the rules and DP didn't break any!) doesn't do us or DP any good.
I know some people think I am being a little harsh on DP, but giving them a pass on virtually anything they say doesn't make sense to me.
When you own your own company, you generally get paid last and many times not at all. At least until the company is on firm financial footing.
I said earlier that I am ready and willing to be wrong about the numbers/ability to finance with a new CM. It still looks a little murky to me, but here's to hoping like hell that I am wrong!
^^^^ all that plus, the numbers really don't work at 300. To get this thing going, it has to be more. But ask them and see if they answer that question at their next 'live' q/a
Hope I get to eat this delicious crow in November. I have it ready to go, but will be in the fridge until then!
Quoted from rubberducks:
Even if finance is quickly put in place and engineering samples all get built quickly, smoothly and work flawlessly, expectations should be modest as far as initial speed of production is concerned.
Some of the parts (for all 300 machines no less) are at ARA. Some of the suppliers don't produce many thousands of units, so replacing them may take a little while, unless ARA cave and come to an arrangement with DP to sell off the parts. If not, it may take a reasonable amount of lead time for them to get everything to both finish the run and then produce more. Case in point P-ROCs and the upper PF cars, the painting of which is all done individually by hand by one guy. Of course, the closer to production DP get, the more pressure there will be on ARA to agree to sell off all the parts and completed machines.
Good news, but a way to go.
If they create new prototype machines, I imagine they will be addressing some known mechanical issues in the ARA machines. Some of those custom parts may not be interchangeable.
Quoted from eggbert52:
And they don't have to. At the end of the day your just some unknown person on a pinball board giving your opinion whereas these guys are actually trying to run a business. Big difference. If they listened to every Tom, Dick, Harry and Flynnibus they'd never get anything done.
Actually they do have to address the money part. They said so themselves in the previous NSNL. Everyone is really anxious for that hurdle to be cleared, including DP I imagine. Flynnibus was rightly pointing that out. I don't think that is out of bounds or negative at all.
I placed TBL in my pinside collection sometime around when I first paid for it. My change battery warning is now at 1099 days, lol.
Ahhh, I was in my 40's then. A wide eyed optimistic idealist. I dreamily thought of playing The Big Lebowski pinball machine while watching The Big Lebowski movie as I stood on a Big Lebowski rug, perhaps wearing a genuine Pendelton Big Lebowski cardigan as I sipped peacefully on White Russians.
Those were the happy days, the salad days, as they say.
Oh good, eggbert popped in for a quick downvote! Thanks for stopping by! Come back soon!
Will someone do me a favor and upvote that post to negate eggbert's downvote? He hates that.
I bet he hasn't seen either movie....