Franklin, TN
Man, I f#%kin' hate the Eagles.
(Topic ID: 115360)
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The Big Lebowski
Dutch Pinball, 2016
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Quoted from HENSBROOKER:Hey RTR... Any reason to not update your pre-order list ?
- offcourse still in!!
I may work on it next week while I am supposed to be working...
1 week later
Quoted from sd_tom:Decent folger's can on ebay this week; actually says there's 2 available!
ebay.com link » 1984 Folgers Metal Coffee Can 39 Oz Automatic Drip Tin Dated 1984 With Lid
it's from a smoke free home though so, you know.. not totally authentic.
Is this the correct can? I don't feel like doing the research...
1 month later
Quoted from NightMutilator:I literally joined the pre-order club with 8 minutes remaining. I feel insane for spending this much on a machine sight unseen, but damn that bowling lane feature is the coolest thing ever. I couldn't resist. Fingers tightly crossed that it's a solid build!
I added you to the list!
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-urban-achievers-list#post-2284151
1 month later
Quoted from sevenrites:» YouTube video
My apologies if you can't hear the call outs or sound effects, as I will probably get hit with a copyright claim instantly due to the small amount of time Bob Dylan is playing in the background. Therefore, YouTube will more than likely decide to generously mute the entire sound clip for us. They already did it once.
To rectify that, I've got it uploaded here, with full sound:
http://pinballer.info/gameplay-videos/The-Big-Lebowski-Pinball-at-Allentown-Pinfest-2015.mp4
Nice video! I had the sound. Looks like you have to be careful where you hit the rug, SDTM danger!
I heard Goodman say "that is very undude" was that a tilt warning?
1 week later
Quoted from burningman:Just found out....all of Liam's and Larry's call outs have been approved and will be used in the game.
Liam.JPG
larry.JPG
Now THAT is news worth reporting!
Thank you Burningman.
Quoted from ToucanF16:Still kicking myself I missed out on the ore-order!
I know of at least one that will be in Alabama, not far from you.
Quoted from genex:Can I play yours over the holiday break?!
Yes! Timing wasn't so good last year. Hopefully less busy this time...
3 months later
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Quoted from Pdxmonkey:Yeah the apron question was asked...they said they're going to combine the stars and cards so no one is happy
I think they should give an option on the aprons. Changing it out for 'like 40 people" is weak sauce.
3 weeks later
1 week later
Quoted from Concretehardt:I think the preorders were around 190 games +-
190 was the highest reported True Serial number on the other thread, does not necessarily mean there were only 190 preorder games. I think there are probably more.
1 week later
Quoted from iceman44:Damn that looks good, I'm jealous.
How many can they pump out weekly?
19
Quoted from LITZ:Here is a link to the video presentation that was included in the newsletter. DP takes attention to detail to a whole new level! You can tell they have poured their heart, soul and love into this project.
» YouTube video
Just finished the whole video and glad I did. Pretty informative and gives you a feeling of their seriousness. Connecting TBL to the internet brings a lot of possibilities too. I like the example of DP monitoring usage and advising about parts breakage and giving you the opportunity to order ahead of the projected failure.
Also - PDXMonkey gets mentioned by name for his pinball skills!
1 month later
Quoted from Darth_Chris:Ok I just got back on planet Lebowski.
Looks like I'm completly disconnected
When I heard Dutch Pinball did not get license right I though : that's it.......project is dead
Audio versions of the songs and movie clips are pretty good.
Now they have that : waiting for final approval label in every clip.
Do we know if clips and songs will stay ?
Any way we could do a pinball browser mod like Cleland did in Twd to switch back to the original songs ?
I'm so confuse right now cause i'm a hge fan of TBL that's why without clips, callouts or music it's just not Lebowski
You are like a child that wanders into the middle of a movie....
1 month later
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Quoted from JustLikeMe:I live in an apartment in London, so I only have room for two machines - the rest of the collection is at my parents place. Iron Man VE has gone to my friends house, but TBL will be next to my Tron LE, at least until GB Premium arrives - then Tron LE will go to my parents! Juggling machines without much space is difficult.
Edit: My original point here that I didn't get around to mention is that I too seem to have an affinity for pinball machines featuring Jeff Bridges. Several people have pointed this out to me previously.
If you need a safe place to store your TronLE, in the spirit of TBL brotherhood, I humbly volunteer my home.
2 weeks later
Quoted from Concretehardt:Seriously? What # are you?
Just kidding. Bored, sitting here waiting on the slow boat with #19 on it.....
Quoted from Nilroc:What!
Not doing the air freight option!
I thought about it, but felt like I could wait a few more weeks. Enjoying the updates a lot.
I probably ought to sell a few games while I am waiting. No idea where I would put this thing right now!!!
2 weeks later
3 weeks later
And, if you are looking for some exclusive Lebowski movie memorabilia, there is only one of these:
ebay.com link: The Big Lebowski Front Door The Dudes Original Front Door 1997 From The Abode
1 week later
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Quoted from JimB:Switch places with me then!!!
I am emotionally attached to #19 now, sorry!
2 weeks later
1 month later
Hey guys - I kind of hate to do this, but I just moved into a new house with an unfinished basement and my basement won't be refinished for probably another 3-4 months. In fact, I will probably have to move my games into storage to get this project done. Cointaker is sitting on my game right now until I can take delivery. And this thread is killing me!!!
I would consider trading with another achiever that doesn't have their game yet. Any takers?
Oh no, not selling!!! For goodness sakes after everything I did to track and promote this when it was a fake project?
Just thought there might be a dude (has to be an achiever/pre order) out there that wants theirs earlier and I can't have mine for 3 or 4 more months anyway.
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Quoted from MrBally:They were on the Pinball Expo schedule including the giant ones on easels at the hotel until they got crossed off a few hours prior to their session start time. Afterwards, the website version was changed
To be fair, there were other changes to the schedule. Mr. Personality comes to mind......
Was checking the thread to see if they delivered any good news at TPF. Cancelling seems like bad news. Anyone know anything different?
1 week later
BOP is the only thing that makes sense really. And in a way it makes sense from a delivery standpoint. All the parts are there, programming done, just get the license and make 25 special ones. Even fits that weird part of the ARA story where they were gonna have 50 of game 2 made.
If game 2 were a brand new theme/game, this would start feeling jpopish. If they announced Pulp Fiction or Trailer Park Boys and wanted full pay pre-order money it would sound like a Hail Mary plan or Jpop scheme. Trying to generate extra cash from a special BOP is at least less stupid than a second brand new pin. I guess.
The $12,500 USD BOP is a Hail Mary. A $6500-8000 BOP might have been taken seriously given the pricing of the MMr and AFMr. But this is total bullshit.
I don't care who they signed a tentative contract with and what the fuck they make. I don't care if they make fucking space shuttles. There won't be 50 dumb motherfuckers that buy a $12,500, 1991, 26th ranked, BOP to bail DP out on TBL. You could buy virtually any top ten HEP restored pin for that kind of money. And get it tomorrow. Don't get me wrong. I hope 50 people line up and buy this pipe dream so that I can get delivery of my TBL, but it ain't gonna happen.
Rensh and others, who are good pinsiders, but are acting as apologists for DP, please reconsider your stance on this unless you have some actual information to share. Actual information would be a copy of the fucking ARA contract or emails that show ARA actually acted in the manner that DP has described. I would LOVE to change my mind about this based on actual information.
So far all we have been hearing is what DP has been saying about ARA. I am sure ARA has a side to this story as well and I bet that ARA is probably pretty sure they will prevail. They have been a CM for a while and this was DP's first real go at it.
DP left out a couple of important milestones in their last newsletter - the part about them lying about the board issue while we were getting FUCKED would be a pretty important part of the fucking timeline. They have never been straight up about their delays and have flat out lied several times. We (especially me) have given them multiple passes. So someone, anyone, tell me why I should give a FUCK about how they describe the current situation?
The best thing DP could do at this juncture is to sell 100% of their interests/IP in the BOP and TBL projects to a company that can take the ball over the goal line and get this shit done. And they should get the fuck out of pinball manufacturing.
Quoted from Rarehero:Calls to Universal licensing honchos start this week.
I'll be happy to call Bally as well to let them know what charlatans they've allowed to license their BOP I.P.
Will be weighing my legal options as well.
I would prefer to just get a refund and be done with this garbage hobby forever.
Not sure "burning the house down" is the best option, even in the Post-Dude era of TBL.
Better Options Part 1
Any better options out there need to start with Jaap and Barry washing down a truth pill with a big glass of truth serum while bathing in a truth fountain and getting a truth enema.
We don't know if ARA broke the contact. We don't know if there is a big unpaid bill at ARA, if DP is out of money (I suspect this is the case, but how bad is it?), we have no idea what the Universal contract looks like, and we sure as hell don't know if DP is even suing ARA or the other way around. So what if they sign a new contract with a new manufacturer? It means NOTHING. You just can't believe anything Jaap says now.
So any possible solutions would need to begin with a trusted 3rd party, preferably someone in the pinball community with an accounting and/or legal background to review DP's books and contracts and then reporting back. Sort of a legal/accounting version of their "Roger Sharpe" moment.
Better Options - Part 2
So, assuming DP decides to have a third party come in and verify things for the Early Aggrieved (have to keep a little sense of humor), there could be a couple of options:
Option 1 - Cough up an extra $1000, get the production line rolling again, and receive your game. I am not even sure this is a real option and I would never send a damn dime unless they went through with Part 1.
Option 2 - The findings in Part 1 show that $1000 won't help, but there are enough assets in the company (hostage games, unused parts, BOP project, IP) that another company could purchase DP's assets and make enough money on the unbuilt games to make it worth their while. It gets DP out of the picture and gets a game (that by all accounts, is pretty awesome) into the hands of a real pinball manufacturer. PPS could do it.
Quoted from Pinhead1982:DP whilst still alive/ producing gives us a chance of seeing TBL.
Take TBL away, BOP 3.0 and more financial stress WILL only lead to DP's end.
Suing DP, DP suing ARA, DP having to spend money fighting Universal, etc are all recipes for no TBL. They don't have the money for any of that stuff. They need to work this out with ARA ASAP and without going to court.
Jaap talking about a months or years long legal battle is bullshit. They don't have the money for it and probably don't have the case for it either. They just need to suck it up and work it out, even if they don't like it or they wind up with nothing and become Pinball Pariahs.
Quoted from rubberducks:That's not how these things work. You can't just say stuff like that and have it magically happen.
If what they say about events that transpired is true, then they clearly were very accommodating and tried to work things out with ARA.
That time is long past.
There's not going to be anything useful that comes of this without legal negotiations and perhaps ultimately a court case. There wouldn't be a situation where ARA are holding games and parts hostage, and DP refusing to pay them if the two parties hadn't completely fallen out.
This is exactly how these things work out. Businesses, on advice from their attorneys or not, frequently work out things out without going to court. 99.9% of the time. There isn't enough money on the line for either entity for a court battle.
The major problem with your post is this phrase:
"If what they say about events that transpired is true, then they clearly were very accommodating and tried to work things out with ARA."
Quoted from sd_tom:You all have a right to feel upset. There isn't a pile of money laying around for refunds though, as Jaap said.. they have already bought the OEM parts for 300 games.. $100k in PROCs alone sitting at ARA, that they say they can't get at. Which is also why they cant move production elsewhere. So TBL is completely seized up.
So, I know everyone wants different things right now and feelings are raw but feels like the pressure is best applied in getting the situation with ARA moving again.
Agree totally the bop3.0 is totally tone deaf
I am not sure they bought OEM parts for all 300 games, can't go on what Jaap says. I believe they are seized up though and that ARA holds all the cards.
By "suck it up and work it out" I mean DP will not get everything they want out of the deal, will have to take some lumps, will have to come clean to it's customers, and may even have to sell all or part of their company. They should do this anyway and just stay in the design side. Let others handle 100% of the business side.
But I believe this is salvageable if they start doing the right things.
Quoted from sd_tom:There was a video from the factory, rensh I think took a video tour. .. he walked down a row of boxes and they had numbers on them like '240-260' and the last one was 300. So they've sourced parts for 300.. all parts, who knows. Gert mentioned he had hand painted all 300 cars already.
Did you shake the boxes? Just kidding, but that is good info to know. I would bet that they ran at least 300 play fields as well.
I like that a lot of the parts are there and have been bought. There isn't anything more productive than making them into pinball machines. That and 50-60 already delivered machines is a major way this differs from some of the other pinball scandals.
They can still save themselves from becoming Pinball Pariahs. But they have to work harder at it than they are currently.
Rubberducks, you are a good dude and I am not trying to argue with you.
People in business, even in two businesses that become short term adversaries, will often talk with each other sans attorneys, work out a deal and then let the attorneys paper it. It is the cheaper and faster way to go. When two companies only let their lawyers talk, it slows things down, is super expensive (attorneys get paid to talk and write letters, not make pinball machines), and can result in one side running out of money or a court case, which is likely not gonna be in DP's favor.
I base this assumption (court case not in DPs favor) on the poor way in which DP has continually handled the business side of their project. I cannot imagine that all of sudden they became business experts on contracting with contract manufacturers, the one thing they knew the least about in the whole process.
As far as going on what Jaap says, well that ship has sailed. About 5 times, lol.
I still think they are in a position to take some lumps right now and get the project moving, but time is not likely on their side. If $1000 per unit gets the assembly line moving, then they should PROVE IT with a third party, and see how many takers they have.
Quoted from rubberducks:I think you're grossly underestimating how bad relations are between the two parties.
A stalemate of months where one party refuses to ship games (and holds parts hostage which they do not legally own), whilst the other party refuses to pay for shipment of completed or future product ... that's pretty much as bad as it could get.
Negotiations without counsel present or directly acting as advocates, at this stage, would be extremely inadvisable for both parties.
First of all, we don't know who owns the parts at this point. I would imagine that the project is secured in part by the parts on hand. For sure, since we haven't read the contract, we have no idea who owns the parts.
If you read Jaap's letter carefully, you will find that in part of the timeline, they "find out that ARA hasn't ordered a single part for BOP". That suggests to me that perhaps ARA buys parts and may not have been paid. It's also a kick in the balls to TBL owners that DP was (supposedly) gambling money they didn't have on 50 pins no one ordered. It also sounds a lot like bullshit.
Lastly, you may notice in the timeline (and again, I am doubting Jaap's description of everything at this point) that the delivery timeframes, even in his description, were always exceeded. Why? ARA? Probably not. DP - Re-design? Changes? Going to manufacturing too early? Starting/stopping? Missing design deadlines? Signing a manufacturing contract too early? Maybe.
The assembly pricing timeframes are not open ended and the contract would explicitly state those timeframes. When the changes in design or just delays by DP push the date, then that is likely a legit opportunity for ARA to change pricing.
At any rate, I don't care who's responsibility it is at this point (hint, it's DPs even if ARA shit the bed), I'm more concerned about progress from where we are.
I still say DP needs a 3rd party to audit their contracts and finances and let the Early Aggrieved know where they stand. From there they can tell us what it would cost to get the project moving. Let us know if the $1000/game is a real figure that can solve the problem or just more bullshit.
Quoted from Rarehero:We don't know that as a truth. Without evidence, we can chalk it up to another Dutch lie.
They burned their own house down. I'm just looking for the truth and help.
On these two things, we agree.
Sorry ducks, we will just have to disagree. If they had the money to develop BOP25, they could have finished TBL. It's clearly BS that they were going to fund, out of their own pocket, a 50 unit surprise run of a machine no one ordered last fall.
It's still not clear at all who owns parts at ARA. If it were, DP could bring in the cops and take possession. I bet it's illegal for ARA to keep something they have no claim on. ARA has all the aces and DP keeps bluffing.
Quoted from DerRoland:I´m really sorry for all, who have their worthy money in this trouble. I jumped of the train at philgate.
After reading the last NSNL ("march: silence") I like the idea of a 3rd known enthusiast trustee, who deal with the 2 companies and spell dutch.
Well, I suggest Jonathan Joosten. He could/should help, to break the silence.
I am still liking the 3rd party option. Especially if DP and ARA are involved in a pissing contest. So who is Mr. Joosten and how can he help us?
I PM'd DerRoland and asked about Mr. Joosten. I will report back.
Next, I think it might be a good idea to contact ARA. Anyone here speak Dutch?
Lastly, it might not be a bad idea if these things fail, to pony up a few bucks between us all and have a Dutch attorney write a letter for us to both parties.
Quoted from Mike_M:Again, just my interpretation of what Jaap said (he was talking off of same very basic bullet point slides)
- Build a small amount of (SLE) BOP3.0 machines with the new contract manufacturer
- If that's successful build a larger run of BOP3.0 machines with the same new contract manufacturer
- If that's successful build the TBLs with the same new contract manufacturer
The whole BOP 3.0 thing is pure insanity in my opinion. $12.5 for a BOP? Come on.
That is about the dumbest plan I have ever heard. The part he left out was he will take the loot from the BOP25 scheme and pay ARA what owes so that he CAN take the parts and pay the new CM. Even if this plan worked, it is over year away at best.
I would really appreaciate it if Jaap would stop spending our money on plane tickets to Texas and dumbass personal pinball fantasy projects and redirect it to the project we hired him to do in the first place.
The Netherlands has universal health coverage. They don't have to hold bake sales or depend on charity to take care of sick children.
Write offs don't offset cash loss/expense on a 1
basis, so they aren't as valuable as the cash itself. ARA is owed money that DP hasn't paid, maybe doesn't have. If we decided to pay it on their behalf in some manner to free the 40 built machines and parts, I am not sure it makes any sense for ARA to be in the Pinball Charity business. This is a neat idea, but not our best idea maybe.
Lastly, tying this into a prevention of DP from engaging in pinball business - however deserving that idea sounds to us all - ain't gonna work. Let your future dollars take care of that one.
I like the ideas of getting Joosten to intervene and see what he can do - the most friendly and least costly. Does he have a business/financial background?
If Joosten doesn't work out, we can pool some resources and find a Dutch lawyer maybe to help sort this out.
Hey guys - This is from the other thread. Jonathan Joosten aka Unigroove on pinside has agreed to act as an outside party to speak with DP and ARA. Jonathan is big in the pinball community in the Netherlands and owns the magazine over there. He was nice enough to volunteer his time to help. I don't know if it will help or not. I wrote him this in the other thread:
This is a list for Jonathan Joosten aka Unigroove on pinside.
First, thank you so much for being willing to intervene and act as an outside party between DP, ARA, and the Unfulfilled Achievers (those of us who have paid for a TBL, but not yet received one).
Emotions and ideas are all over the board on this issue - ranging from class action lawsuits (not a fan) to pitchforks and torches. I am not speaking for everyone in this letter and others may chime in and add to or throw darts at what I write.
I am sure you know more than the average person about this problem, but will give a short summary anyway. Our main problem is that we do not have a machine and we have been unable to get straight answers from DP on why the machines have been held up. Jaap has lied to us on several occasions regarding these reasons and therefore anything he now says is viewed with suspicion and distrust. The most egregious and recent example was late last year when he blamed the hold up on board issues. He has since admitted that was a lie.
We have heard a small amount of information from ARA and from their point of view, money was the hold up. We don't know how much or what the terms are. From ARA, we would like to know what the severity and nature of the problem is. I can't think of a legal reason for them to withhold at least a summary of that information from us. We would also like to know if they are currently suing DP, how many machines are built and boxed up, and how many complete machines can be built from the parts they have on hand. Does ARA have an ownership position in these parts, or could they be moved to a new manufacturer if ARA and DP cannot come to terms? If they have an ownership position, how much money? And if it is not too much to ask, it would be nice. For us to have a contact person at ARA or get some information from them that corroborates anything that DP says if they decide to work together again.
From DP, we would like a new spokesperson. We have lost complete confidence in anything that Jaap tells us and need someone who is going to shoot completely straight. We would like to know what their cash position is and if they owe money to anyone but ARA (parts vendors). We would like to know what DP believes they owe ARA and what they believe they have in inventory in regards to completed but undelivered machines and parts that could be utilized to build new machines. There is no legal reason they cannot share this information with us, only embarrassment reasons.
This is probably a question for ARA and DP - There are approximately 150 TBLs that only have a $1000 deposit on them and presumably do not have parts ordered yet. Could these machines be built at a new contract manufacturer (maybe even in the states) and the proceeds from those machines be utilized to satisfy the debt at ARA and get that line moving again?
Lastly, let DP know that it is no secret that they are essentially having a money issue. In general there are still enough Achievers out here that are willing to work with them on this, but the 'work with' part has to happen soon and with more transparency than we are currently receiving. We generally believe that the fastest way to get these machines done is through ARA and DP working through this without suing each other.
There are some very upset clients over here that are planning on hiring attorneys and in general creating more headaches and legal problems for them. If they act quickly, they can head this off. But I can assure DP that if all they are going to do is hand us emails like the last one we got and then move on to new projects, that this could get messy quickly.
Best regards,
Mike Hoover
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:"There are approximately 150 TBLs that only have a $1000 deposit on them and presumably do not have parts ordered yet."
I'm fully paid (had to pay extra for rug and chrome plus price increase) at #190. It looks like there aren't parts on hand to build my TBL.
There's a lot of talk about just paying an extra $1,000 to get machines built. I technically have already.
Sorry Hoss - I am shaky on all those numbers for sure. If anyone has a better breakdown of the fully paid vs deposit only, that would be super helpful. My letter was just to get the ball rolling in a direction. This kind of feedback helps a lot, thanks.
Quoted from EternalLife:This thread is becoming very undudelike. Let's try and help DP deliver TBL, not ruin them in the process.
I definitely agree but DP pushed us into the post-Dude era of this project. Keeping them afloat and the dream alive is why I'm pushing for the outside party route first. They could get this figured out, but they gotta start acting more like the dude and a lot less like Mr. Lebowski first.
Quoted from EternalLife:Rarehero, you need to calm the f*ck down. RTR, being a hothead accomplishes nothing. I'm only saying lets work with DP to solve whatever issue there is to get this back on track. Code's not finished, want a half coded game? I want to work with the guys to make this dream a reality. It's too great a game to not see it through..
If you will read my letter to Unigroove, you will see that I'm anything but a hot head. I believe the path forward is through DP and ARA getting these games done together.
I did have an F-bomb laden post much earlier in the thread (ok, maybe a little bit of a hot head moment), but it was on point and witty.
Quoted from lamihh:DP is dead and they know it
DP is not dead dude, just in a self induced coma.
There are games in boxes, parts in boxes, working games in the field, and parties interested in getting the games into the hands of the owners. That's why we are getting the paddles out!
Quoted from eggbert52:Per machine bro, totally doable.
You are assuming 1000 usd per machine frees them.
Also the remaining unbuilt/hostage machines are 240.
Quoted from Rensh:Another point to think about. When DP came to ARA with a million+ dollar undertaking and being a startup, do you really think that ARA would just say come on in, we will worry about the money later. For sure they did their research and DP had to play it very open with open books to get it even started-going.
So ARA would only start this whole project knowing they could get paid at the end. However, than you don't held up to your end of the bargain, eg deliver the pins in 2015, but delay and delay and put other customers upfront. This makes DP look bad in our eyes but it also causes to see TBL funds slowly decrease. Still ARA doesn't act so they think they still can be paid. Than june 2016 they recalculate the figures (for a 3rd time: made price in april 2015 and again in may 2015, guessing that the production of the engineering samples in 2015 learned them this) and find out they need more money to make a profit.
They are not looking for ways to decrease costs (speed up building, buying parts in larger quantities to reduce costs, etc), take their responsibility (it's their miscalculation after all) but turn (again) to DP. DP accepts IF they get the TBLs in 2016 out of the door plus additional 50 pcs BoP3.
These Bops are paid by CT and Nitro for sure (no pre ordering after all) and generate profit in order to overcome the price increase from ARA. So DP was reasonable sure to get an income from CT and Nitro.
Than it takes Ara some time to get the invoice out of the shipment of 21 pcs TBL end july, it has a payment term and during the payment term it turns out in october that 1) production TBL is not stepped up and 2) parts for Bop3 have not been ordered (so the needed money to pay for the price-increase will not come). So ARA f*cks with DP again and leaving them hanging. DP than refuses to pay the higher invoice and here we are. Looking at the history of proven unreliability from ARA I can't really blame them. I am even getting the feeling that if they were paid for the 70-90? pcs (dependable if april batch TBL of approx 21 pcs is paid yes-no) ARA would just stop production and leaving 210 buyers without anything.
Even if DP is now short of even the Original agreed amount this is also due to the fact that TBL is overdue like over a year and 3 persons living for a year costs money. This is a year where the delay causes DP to not get fresh money in the door. Who is to blame here? ARA. People will now state DP has done design changes causes the delay and I dare them : point to me where these DESIGNchanges are? Have the ramps moved from left to right? Has the upper playfield become a bottom playfield? Yes, there have been manufactureing changes made by ARA because there original ideas for how to make a reliable rugtoy for instance were proven to be not errorfree. This is a MANUFACTURERchange responsibility ARA, not DP
And yes, we have bought our TBL with DP, not ARA. So we totally shouldnt care if DP or ARA is to blame because from a customer view its always DP. But this is not how it works unfortunately. If a small company has this kind of problems it also becomes the problem of the customer
The above is ofcourse based on stories-newsletters from DP, not on written proof or talks with ARA. So it may be worth nothing or everything.
The one interesting new tidbit, if I understand it, is that CT and Nitro are buying BOPs outright and then selling them? Is that correct?
Quoted from Rensh:Firing on the spot is very unusual in NL and only done in cases like theft, sexual misabuse or gross mismanagement. I suspect the latter is the case.
Probably sexual abuse - Rene may have fucked a bunch of strangers in the ass....
Quoted from mgpasman:Why would it still be required (to sell extra machines) to bring in extra cash, now that the Extortionist at ARA is gone? One would think they would now honor the original contract.
If they have nothing to do while all this is going on, they may as well plan their next project. A BOP project makes the most sense - least development time, street cred already there on BOP. Now the 12,500 tag is still whack and prob kills it, but the planning of a BOPr isn't 100% dumb.
1 month later
1 week later
Quoted from fosaisu:You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me. Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon ... with nail polish.
Fucking amateurs.
I don't know all the details but percentage wise, it's not a bad deal, DP needs to take it. It's really their only hope. They need someone to take a lot of the operational aspects off their hands. They can focus on sales, creative aspects, and future projects knowing that they are backed financially and operationally. If they had done this long ago we would all have our TBLs and our Pulp Fictions by now.
Gary Stern has the same kind of deal (although he probably owns a lot less than 49%) and he seems to do ok.
1 week later
I've been pretty patient, but damn this is getting old. If DP wants to be an ongoing business (and I hope they do), they need to make a deal with ARA or someone and soon.
No one will want to do business with an unpartnered/unfinancially backed DP on future projects regardless of how this shit show ends.
Quoted from eggbert52:Yep. Just like the 9 KingPins, One Loch Ness Monster, and 2 Pinball Circus' that seem to still be working and Oh Yea...drawing huge dollars whenever they are up for sale.
says the guy that owns one....
They are full of shit.
How do they propose paying a new CM? How will they get the parts and machines released? When was the Early Achiever advice poll taken?
What CM would agree to build these machines without money up front? DP has no leverage with ARA. Except this imaginary lawsuit that is so much in their favor - and such a slam fucking dunk - that they have decided not to pursue it. Whew, lucky for ARA! A close shave!!
The only way they proceed with a new CM is with a new financial partner. And I don't know anyone that would put in that kind of money without a controlling interest or a management agreement that puts them in charge.
And lastly, companies buy businesses to make money, not shut them down. I doubt that the private equity company that bought Stern was a pinball manufacturer. They just like making money. DP should pursue an agreement like that, accept (graciously) a minority interest and see if they can remain a company.
Quoted from ToucanF16:I think some big egos are involved here. Did they really poll all the early achievers? It's hard to beleave only 2-3 support option 1.
See the poll and commentary here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-values-your-advice-on-tbl-vote-here#post-3799732
There are plenty more than 2-3 people who are for DP gaining a financial partner/investor.
IF DP had money, they would never even have considered a 51% stake for ARA. That pretty much tells the whole story right there.
I don't even think there was a negotiation. DP told no stories about trying to create a contract that addressed their concerns.
Quoted from unigroove:Well, I'm not looking to risk that. I'm just trying to look at the situation with some common sense, although it appears this may be the wrong place for that There's no point in assuming and speculating as it literaly won't do anything for you, except maybe raise your bloodpressure. Seriously, can anyone name a good example of a situation where they didn't have any control over, yet stirring up a pot on a public forum (that the people in charge of the situation aren't even looking at) solved everything?
Assuming and speculating will not get games made any sooner. So why bother? The only people who can work on a solution are Barry and Jaap. As far as I can tell they are trying to the best of their capabilities to find a solution to get games build, as they have mentioned before. It may not go as fast as you like, but it won't go any faster by speculating, or getting upset about not getting a refund. So what's the point? It's like being stuck in traffic. You can go crazy all you want in your car, but does that help moving the traffic any faster? Or do you just go along with the flow? I prefer to go with the flow.
I get that some people are dissapointed. I've been supporting DP since day 1. They were a fresh breeze in the industry. The game they designed kicks ass. Guess what: I have a game on order that hasn't even been build, so I'm in the same boat as the other Achievers. Sure I wonder whether things will work out, and I certainly hope they do, but whether they do or don't is not in my hands.
Have to agree with EternalLife. Based on what I know I still find it odd all the anger seems to be pointed at DP, who are trying to find a solution, while ARA are the ones to blame for the current mess. It's like hitting the mechanic working on your car with a bat to get him to hurry up. Obviously that's not helping. Sure I understand the reasoning that we bought a product from DP, not ARA, but if you know DP is trying their best and ARA hasn't been very cooperative, does it make sense to bash DP while they are trying to find a solution?
Let's just see if this week's newsletter will bring some news.
Unigroove - just so we all know we are the same footing. Would you mind sharing what you have paid thus far for your TBL preorder that you have not received yet?
Quoted from unigroove:paid in full, ordered right after Expo where the game was shown (2014?)
So, paid in full at 8500 USD, correct?
Quoted from unigroove:Yes, except I paid in Euro at the current exchange rate at the time.
Great, just checking. Thank you. We are at least in the same financial boat I guess.
Quoted from unigroove:Interessant. Maar hoe zit het als je als klant (DP) een product besteld bij een fabrikant (ARA), een prijs overeenkomt en de fabrikant ineens meer geld wil?
New subject, in regards to this comment, the manufacturer I purchsed my game from was DP. What one of their subs did is not relevant to me, even though DP has made it my problem at this point.
Bad management of the process by DP perhaps, but their fault, not mine.
Quoted from eggbert52:So wait, you don't actually OWN the game? Why is it in your lineup then? Also, is that you selling a "spot" for $8,500? That's just as fraudulent as JPop, DP and Skit B themselves.
Since I can't quote Trailer Park Boys anymore, I will address your concern.
I was #19 - very early in the process. Big supporter. My game was delivered to Cointaker and sitting in their warehouse. Since I was refinishing my basement, I had all but 3 of my games in storage and no room for my TBL.
DP announced the board problem, said it was slowing things down a bit. But everything seemed positive at that time. Based upon that positivity and confidence in the company (confidence based on what they were doing and saying at the time), I chose to allow concrethardt to take delivery of my machine and I swapped for his fully paid preorder at #141ish.
Needless to say, I am not happy about that. Had DP been honest about what was going on, I would still have my machine. And no, my preorder spot is not for sale anywhere.
Quoted from eggbert52:Dude, 95% of my comments are tongue in cheek. However, as my blood pressure remains nice and low it's entertaining to see others so affected. Others have made similar comments to me regarding putting Houdini, etc. in my lineup and again, my blood pressure stays low. It's a freaking pinball board, not cancer.
And by the way, I have no preconceived notions that my TBL is actually going to sell for $18K. To be honest, I don't need the money and would rather see DP succeed so I can play the game without worrying about breaking a part.
Calmer than you, dude.
Quoted from Nikonokin:Here is your weekly update from Dutch Pinball BV, regarding the production process of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.
Last week we informed you that we thought there were 2 groups. We based this on the emails that we received and the reactions of the people that we talked to. Looking at the reactions not all of you were happy that we talked about only 2 groups and about the size of the groups. We are sorry if we offended you. We tried to reflect the reactions of the people we talked to.
We understand everyone wants their TBL and that you are tired of waiting. We are too!
And that’s where the good news comes in: one of our alternative contract manufacturers is very, very enthusiastic and informed us that they want to make a serious quotation. Please know, that making a quotation is very complicated since our game has about 600 unique parts that they have to quote. They expect that making this quote will take them about three/four weeks so we have to be patient, but the good news is that they are very interested and are willing to take step 2. By the way: we haven’t heard a word from ARA and we believe it is best to move on with a new, reliable partner.
We understand that a weekly update is not enough. We therefore have planned a webinar on Monday June 19th. We (Barry and Jaap) will give you an update about the production of TBL and also do a Q & A session. We probably will start at 6PM CET/Amsterdam time (this is 12AM EST and 9AM PDT). Next week you will receive more details about this webinar.
That’s all for now. Thank you for your great, continues support and till next time!
Kind regards,
Barry & Jaap
This creates more questions than answers for me, but I do like that they are having to address us more. I wish they would put me back on the mailing list.
Our emails to them and posts on pinside are helping to hold them accountable. That's why they have Unigroove talking to us on this thread I guess. When it was clear that Unigroove doubling down on their views wasn't enough, we get more frequent updates and a Q/A call.
Although the forum feedback is good, it's important that we keep DP informed of our views on this via email directly to them, so keep it up dudes!
Quoted from knockerlover:For a change? You don't know me and can't make statements like that. Also, put your story out there before you go making personal attacks.
Highdef and dergoetz. I didn't suggest we should send them money cart Blanche or invest financially any more. But I do know that there is much we are capable of. But we can't help if we don't know what the problems are. If DP is gearing up for a webinar, I want to know the full truth. If I get it I'll do everything I can to help.
I know that being invested fullly since oct 2014 sucks, and I'm truly sorry that you guys are experiencing that. But I am damn near certain that the headhunting, threats, pot stirring, and negativity against them is going to fix absolutely nothing.
DP, put your cards in the table. Let's either gear up or move on.
Unfortunately, the pot stirring is the only thing that has given us any new and accurate information. This entire shit show would be more tolerable if our partner (DP) was a straight shooter. They are not.
Quoted from knockerlover:Of the original khan?
Yes, when he says, "I grow fatigued"
Quoted from DavidPinballWizz:I think Aeneas nailed it... after I read the post, I thought, yes that's exactly what ARA or N is doing/hopoing right now. So this should be avoided. Hopefully they have a solid (enough) contract to sue ARA.
I think the anti-ARA theories are way off. The partnership ONLY makes sense if the 300 (or more) run is completed. The hostage games have already been paid for and DP is either sitting on or have spent that money. Probably the latter.
Some expensive parts for all 300 games have already been purchased - play fields, p-rocs, boards, and more. I think ARA fronted a lot of that money.
Cointaker and others are sitting on deposits for approximately 150 games that only have deposits and were sold for $9500 USD. Upon completion, ARA and DP would receive $1,425,000. And that is for games for which many of the parts have been paid for already.
Thank goodness these were not pre-pays, it is the unbuilt 150+ games that could save this deal.
"But ARA is not a pinball company"
Great, I agree. DP and ARA could agree to joint venture only on the TBL project. The run gets done, DP remains a company and ARA is made whole. And they part ways.
The split could still be 51/49 so ARA feels in control and any other concerns could be addressed in the contract. So far it really does not (from DP communications) seem like there has been any real negotiations or compromise discussed.
There are ways to do this dude. I could get you an agreement by 3:00.
"But ARA will take all the money and shut things down and no one will get their games"
#1 - the deal doesn't make sense unless all the games get made. The unbuilt games are where they all get paid.
Any money transferred from DP at the beginning (if there is money) goes into third party escrow. Contractual terms cover how money is released.
True, the distributors get a cut, but the fact remains that the money is in the unbuilt machines. Were it not for them, I would have stuck a fork in this hot mess months ago.
I don't see a scenario where a new CM is utilized, but I'm open to it. Someone will need to explain where the money comes from though. And it does not happen without a sign off from ARA. No CM will front DP sh$t with a big suit from ARA pending.
My 150 number is somewhat made up, someone correct me if I am wrong.
Quoted from TigerLaw:I love the idea. Have a voting trust control the 2% and have the Coin Taker guy speak on behalf of the 2%, everyone would trust him to represent the desires for the games to be made.
I like it too, but would never happen. A great thought for any future pre-order business model.
Lots of posts, but bottom line is the value is in the unbuilt and unpaid for machines. It's the only leverage that DP has to persuade ARA or a new CM to work with them.
TigerLaw - would like to hear your take on the prospect of DP working with a new CM with an unresolved conflict with ARA in the background. Keeping in mind that the past CM model with ARA involved the fronting of money by ARA for parts.
Quoted from Rensh:I am 163 and payed eur 7500 equal to now usd 8500 which I think all first achievers paid. This incl 21% VAT so DP only sees usd 7000.
Pls do note my price is ex factory. So no shipping and imports costs to US were to be considered by DP
I am putting a placeholder on this as it might be news. Are you saying that DP charged you 8500, is paying VAT out of their end, and only nets $7000 usd out of their end?
Quoted from Jvspin:If the machine was payed for in 2014 I think DP would have netted close to $8500 usd at that time. The value of the euro has dropped quite a bit compared to the dollar since then.
My question is less about the value of the euro and dollar at the time and more about who paid VAT - DP or the customer? If "DP", then non-VAT customers were perhaps subsidizing the VAT differential. If everyone paid the same, but for VAT customers, VAT was netted out of the 8500 USD, then that might be a problem.
That leads to a whole different line of questioning. If DP nets out VAT, did they pay it right away? Or did they plan on paying as the machines were delivered? A great question for the QA period. Hopefully it is a non-issue.
Quoted from MrBally:"Early Achievers". Makes you feel good. Like getting a kiss after getting fucked.
By Bill Cosby.
Quoted from Rensh:Sorry Burningman but I have to disagree in this one. So much nonsense is said in this threat coming from people with no skin in the game that following this threat without getting emotional attached and disrupted is difficult.
DP only has to report to the achievers and they can always contact Barry and Jaap via mail. Towards them DP has an obligation and only them.
And yes, you can state you are also stressed because of your money but don't you think DP is already stressed enough in regard to this situation without the name calling on a forum?
I understand the reason for webcare teams but a forum like this is beyond webcare.
Pls do note I still love you even if we have a different opinion on this one
I will have to disagree here Ren. Plenty of the "nonsense" is coming directly from EA's, those that have laid down deposits, and good dudes that have been fervent supporters and even DP apologists.
I've owned several companies and would have LOVED to have a forum where my clients thoughts - good or bad - were freely expressed for me to read..
Quoted from bemmett:Ask him to sell me that Sopranos......
It really is an awesome game I hope they work it out, quite depressing to see all the drama with these newer companies.
I will give you $10 more than bemmet for Sopranos...
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:My questions just emailed to Barry and Jaap for their consideration in responding to in next Monday's session (FWIW):
Game Manufacturing
1. How many total TBL games have been built by ARA to date?
2. How many TBL games are currently ready to ship, but are being held by ARA?
3. At a minimum, what has to happen in order for the existing TBL games being held by ARA to be shipped?
4. How does DP realistically propose to build TBL games through a different manufacturer?
5. What is DP’s proposed realistic timeline for building TBL games through a different manufacturer?
6. If DP doesn’t reach an agreement with ARA/Nivoge and ceases to exist, can ARA/Nivoge sell the TBL games and parts that they currently possess?
7. Does DP still propose to proceed with producing a BOP V3.0 game?
8. Does DP plan to continue to produce and provide code upgrades for TBL games?
DP and ARA/Nivoge Business Relationship
9. What are the details of DP’s dispute with ARA?
10. What are the details of ARA’s dispute with DP as you understand them?
11. How much responsibility is DP accepting for its current dispute with ARA?
12. What is DP’s current offer to ARA/Nivoge?
13. What is ARA/Nivoge’s current offer to DP?
14. What is the current status of discussions between DP and ARA/Nivoge?
15. How optimistic are you that an agreement with ARA/Nivoge that results in them manufacturing the remaining TBL Games, can be achieved this year? Ever?
16. Why can’t ARA/Nivoge and DP reach an agreement in which all remaining TBL games are guaranteed to be built and shipped even if ARA/Nivoge has majority ownership?
17. Is DP considering use of an independent third party to resolve their disagreement with ARA/Nivoge?
18. Is DP willing to allow ARA to provide its perspective regarding TBL games production to DP’s customers?
19. If ARA is in the wrong, than why doesn’t DP proceed with legal action against them?
DP’s Financial Health
20. What is the financial status (cash value) of DP?
21. What business assets does DP have?
22. Approximately what percentage of Barry and Jaap’s personal income has DP provided since Pinball Expo 2014?
23. Do Barry and Jaap have full-time income producing jobs outside of DP?
24. Does DP currently have any paid employees?
25. If so, how full-time and how many part-time?
26. Are there any other investors or business partners currently within DP?
27. Is DP considering bringing in new investor(s)?
Future Options
28. What other viable options if any, does DP feel will enable TBL customers to receive their games?
29. What does DP propose that its TBL game customers do to best help resolve the current situation?
30. What guarantee(s) do “Early Achievers” have from DP that they are acting in good faith given that DP has admittedly lied to them in the past?
I think that about covers it. I might add in a question along the lines of "Has ARA filed any notice/letters to DP?" Maybe not worded correctly, but if DP is violating payments terms, ARA may not be forever patient. They might start pursuing their rights under the contract.
I missed the broadcast and don't really care to watch it. Sounds like DP only addressed those questions that they wanted to address.
Did they comment on whether ARA might (or has) sued them? If they choose to abandon their project with ARA, without suing them or formally alleging breach in some manner, that a lawsuit would certainly come from ARA/Nivoge direction.
Quoted from Hjbondar:I was relieved, and surprised, that ARA pre-funded as much as they did. This would seem to put them in a position of less leverage.
I had the opposite reaction. If DP has not paid ARA very much, and they are still short on money, and they have 190 EA's fully paid - 50ish delivered, then they math starts not working. 140ish fully paid games at $8500 is a lot of cabbage - about 1.2m bucks. Not sure what the net is on that figure, but even if you assumed 20%, that is only $240k.
You see where I am going here. If they are out of or short on money, I don't think they have enough to build their way out of their hole.
I am severely disappointed that they did not reveal more details of their financial position. They are dancing all around it, but the questions will not be answered until that is revealed. They can talk all day if they want.
Sorry guys, this is gonna be a long one one. Did DP actually throw any numbers out at all? Please don't make me watch the video.
If we aren't talking actual numbers at this point, then we aren't really talking gang. The math is not that complicated. Many people posting on this thread haven't given the math a good thinkin'.
If DP collected money for 190 machines, that is about 1,615,000 bucks at $8,500 usd per machine. About 50 machines have been delivered. If DP spent X, then what they have left to completely build the remaining 140 EA games is 1,615,000 - X. This figure is what they have left to pay a new CM.
The first big question is what does X equal? Salaries for Jaap and Barry for 3 years and others for some period (are they still taking a salary - was that answered?)? Travel and promotion? Research/development? Splits with distributors for machines delivered? Payments to ARA (I'm sure they made some)? Taxes (you don't receive 1.6m bucks without paying the tax man)? Rent? Legal fees? Insurance? Telecom? Electric? Whatever the hell they spent developing BOP 25? Sexy bowling girl outfits?
Let's pretend that another number, Y, represents the potential net income that DP would realize off of a run of 250 machines (300 total, 50 already delivered). I have no earthly idea what Y might be. For the sake of argument let's say it's $2,000 per machine, even figuring in development and promotion costs. That would 500k. If Y=3,000 per machine, then 750k. I can't believe it would be more than that, but let's hope.
Point is that X is a number that is significant. And if X < Y = Big Problem ----- Especially in a new CM scenario. So unless they have saved a bunch of money, and kept X as small as possible, they are going to have a hard time striking a new deal with a new CM to start at machine # 51 and move forward fresh.
Hoping X > Y in a new CM scenario still only works if ARA does nothing. You think ARA will just sit on their hands and ditch parts or sell for scrap parts for 250 more machines they can't sell? If ARA decides to fight DP over this, it makes X a lot bigger and new CM or investor stepping in very unlikely.
IMO, DP and ARA have to work this out. Even if DP gets an investor, DP has to work with ARA. I find it super unlikely that ARA is in violation of the contract in such an egregious manner that DP has a slam dunk case - but they choose not to pursue it. Instead, they go the long way - start over from scratch? Does that make sense to any of you?
Quoted from highdef:No one is perfect. It takes failure to succeed. Again, it's not like they vanished into thin air. I don't think a comparison to JPop or SkitB is a fair comparison.
I agree. They cranked out a small but successful run of machines working with ARA. They have the ability to salvage this for sure.
Quoted from Foxis:I agree with the sentiment of your post, but *if* they know what they are doing you are wrong about taxation. The funds paid by preorder customer should have been marked as the short term debt that they are, as such they would not be profit and therefor not taxed. The taxation would happen when they realise the profit.
Not sure how it works there, but here - if you pay yourself a salary, in general you will be paying taxes of some form.
Would love to believe DP for sure. I have $8500 riding on it. I refer back to my numbers oriented post. They just don't seem to add up.
No way to tell who is right or wrong on the contract stuff without seeing the contract. Gotta go with what I do see. DP trying to walk on a contract where they are holding all the cards? Doesn't make sense.
Only thing that makes sense to me is that DP is trying to sell a big woof ticket to ARA/Nivoge to bring them back to the negotiating table and cut a better deal. And I hope it works.
I don't think Tigerlaw was suggesting this is a con. Just saying that sincerity is not an indicator either way. They were pretty sincere about how the board issue just needed to be fixed because they weren't the kind of company that would ship out machines with bad boards. People (some) were praising them for this move even though it would take extra time. Remember how that turned out?
Also - it doesn't even have to be a con to be bad for us. It could just be continuous bad business decisions that allow the slow draining away of the funds that could save this project. They can be sincere and heartfelt all the way down.
Quoted from rubberducks:If one is to assume that something is rotten, then it would be a pretty weird con given that a third of the money is being held by CT, and DP haven't taken any new money in 2 years.
Can you tell me what you mean by CT is holding a third of the money? I don't think that is correct.
And if sincerity is their strongest virtue now, they could sincerely share some details of their financial position. Is it true they are taking salaries still? Were the 50 machines that were released paid for by them to ARA? Was it 50 machines? I could make a list. Plenty they could share w/o feeling violated. Heck, this is essentially a kickstarter, they share financial information all the time.
It would make a difference if I knew they had enough money to enact their "new CM" plan.
Ok, so I agree with you guys that the unpaid for machines are what can salvage this operation, I've mentioned that before.
Where I start to disagree is in regards to DPs stated plan. It is good to know they at least admitted they dont have enough money to build the 150 paid for machines. Sounds like they may have enough money to get a new CM through the pre-production process (development/prototypes/testing again). And that's if a new CM comes back with a figure that fits inside the TBL build budget.
From there I have a hard time believing anyone will loan DP enough money to build the 150 machines. Look at the business plan. Sticking with an overall net of 20% per unit on this project, the numbers can work, but it's a really tough road. The 150 machines that have already been paid for would have to be paid by loan, loan has to be repaid by profit on next batch of machines (bc ZERO money comes in on the first 150 units).
And they don't need to borrow enough money to build 150 machines, the first 150 pay ZERO money to them. They need enough to build the Cointaker machines too. So a loan for 250 machines so that they can actually start collecting money.
If 20% net per unit is correct (and I think it's less) they have to sell around 5 new units for every 1 of the 150 to break even. So they have to have a total run of somewhere around 750 plus 150 to build their way out of this with a new CM. 900 TBLs. That's a pretty big run, I'd certainly be glad if that happened!
Skins post beat me by a minute, but I am glad to see another person thinking about actual numbers and not forming an opinion based on DP sincerity.
For those of you wringing hands over the 'secrecy' needed and if ARA reads pinside, well don't worry. ARA knows about 100 times more about the situation than all of us together. And they own calculators too.
Quoted from rubberducks:I could be wrong, but I just don't see banks providing large enough loans at this stage, at least not without another party underwriting some of the risk or matching some of the loan with investment in exchange for equity. Interest rates are so low, and the risk given the background would be large for the lender. So if they were to provide loans, I'd expect them to have much, much higher-than-market premiums. Perhaps DP have made preliminary approaches and received good news, though ... who knows.
I don't think anyone loans DP money with the ARA contract in dispute and unsettled. But to your point, the business plan probably kills it.
Quoted from rubberducks:If potential legal action involving ARA would be a factor in rejecting a hypothetical loan, I think it'd be the final nail in the coffin ... not the primary reason.
I don't think it gets past the business plan explanation process either, lol.
Quoted from Nikonokin:I actually found the live stream helpful, sincere. It changed my stance. Yeah, this is not ideal, but tearing them down isn't going to help the matter. Here's what I sent to the guys:
"I'd like to apologize for my refund request earlier day. I'm emotional about the potential loss of my 8500 bucks. However, after listening again to your live stream...I'M IN. I want to see TBL through. I appreciate the nightmare you are in, and I will be in it, and shut my mouth, and let you work through it. Also, FUCK ARA! And their horseshit manipulative parent company. 51%....HA! They can eat 51% of our dick! I'm glad you didn't take the deal, and believe you tried to do what is in all of our best interests.
Thanks for the better communication, the live stream, the weekly updates...it helps. Eagerly and respectfully awaiting TBL #52, I believe in you guys, your dream is our collective dream, and I want to see it come to fruition. You can do it. - #52"
I've felt some of this too, we've all (EA's, lovers of the theme) been emotionally involved in this process. No one was a bigger unpaid supporter/promoter than me!
But at some point I gotta quit thinking with my flippers and start thinking with my coin mech.
Quoted from Nikonokin:They're still in business, aren't they?! I've said it before...this thread is hazardous to your health.
DP doesn't answer my emails anymore and has taken me off the distribution list for some reason. If one of you who is still in good standing cares to submit a question and report back, here is a great legit question to ask:
In your new business plan with a new CM, it seems as though your profit will have to come from the unpaid for machines that are on deposit. This profit will have to pay for the build of the 150 machines that have been fully paid, the build of the deposit machines, distributor share, regular overhead, and presumably your salaries over the next 2-3 years.
Have you done the math on how many machines (beyond the 150 left to make that have been fully paid) it will take for you to hit breakeven? You only have 110 additional machines with a no strings/fully refundable deposit through CT/Nitro. How many additional units will you have to sell to make the numbers work?
They aren't bankable in my opinion. They need an equity partner. They have some options.
They can come back to the table with ARA. ARA can take a stake in the company (not sure DP cares to do this) or a larger stake in this project. They can work out an operating agreement that both parties can live with for the duration of the project.
Other option, and maybe best, they could find an investor that is financially stable and bankable. That investor could come to the ARA table and suggest a haircut for ARA, but provide a path forward through this mess.
Quoted from eggbert52:And by the way, don't tell me what I'm "hearing." I'm pretty fucking smart.
I bow to your superior intellect. Teach us, great one.
Quoted from rubberducks:They do, all the time.
Let me amend my 'no loaning money' comment Rubberducks. No one lends money to someone with an unresolved, unpaid, 600k debt when that entity also has no business plan or pathway to profitability.
I still say the TBLs do not get built without some sort of ARA resolution:
1. ARA will either have to build them - DP and ARA both put their big boy pants on and resolve their differences. Maybe with a 3rd party investor or not. Probably best scenario for everyone.
2. To get to a new CM solution, DP has to borrow a lot of money. The investor/bank will want some sort of settlement to relieve them and DP of the threat of a suit from ARA regarding the contract. So an out of court settlement will need to be reached. Possibly releasing hostage games and parts to the new CM.
3. The contractual dispute will need to be resolved in the court prior to moving forward with any other plan. Unless, Barry and Jaap are independently wealthy and decide to fund it themselves. Or if they find an investor that doesn't care about ROI or default.
Quoted from rubberducks:It's been at least 8 months they've been in dispute, possibly a lot longer with frayed relations ... they've got absolutely nowhere in that time.
It could be entirely DP and or the advice of their business consultant / lawyer that is to blame for a situation that could have been resolved. But if that's so, then what confidence do you have of them finding a solution now? If it's not all their fault, and I suspect the truth lies in the middle somewhere, same goes. They need to try to get a fresh start with another party, which appears to be what they're doing.
Odds are against them, but the odds will be a lot worse IMO if they spend the summer in more talks with ARA, and by September are still nowhere closer. The longer the down period, and the longer they spend in what have so far been futile talks with ARA, the less likely potential CMs are to give them the time of day, or banks or investors are to touch them. Can you imagine if they hammered out a deal with ARA, and then it broke down again just as production was supposed to resume, in - say - October? I think that would be the end.
They're more likely to have some kind of settlement with ARA if they find a new CM anyway. A deal with a new CM will reduce ARA's leverage and increase DP's. If ARA think DP can move forwards without them, then it's in their interests to come to an agreement about selling them or the new CM the parts and completed games. They can't sell any of them, or Universal will be breathing down their necks.
No one here knows if ARA or DP is really the bad guy. Maybe both since neither has apparently filed suit yet.
They can work it out for sure. Entities that hate each other can work together. Especially to finish out a contract and be done with each other.
I only go on what I see. Doesn't matter so much to me what DP says anymore. Heck, if ARA started talking it would interesting, but wouldn't mean much compared to their actions.
That neither party has sued the other thus far says a lot.
Quoted from KerryImming:My estimate, based on experience putting together several playfields...
Assuming things are well-organized and parts like wire-harnesses pre-built, about 2 games per week.
Hmmmm, 104 games per year output. Rumor is Jaap and Barry together pull 80,000 euros a year out of the company. Puts the labor cost per machine at 769 euros, probably a lot cheaper than ARA. They love pinball so much and since this is their dream they wouldn't mind putting in the hours.
ARA - Please let Barry and Jaap have a corner of the warehouse. They will bring their own nut drivers. They can work this off in about 2 years - everyone whole!!
Quoted from dannylite:"They're not broke" is a true statement. I guess what everyone is trying to figure out here is the math man. It's all about the fuckin math. Is half a mil enough to sign with a new CM and get these remaining ~100 games made and the ~40 that ARA is still holding hostage released and the ~50 that have already been delivered. (Subtract the ~50 from that equation) Does that even make sense financially? Is that gonna bring them into the light to make a 100+ more TBL's and onto the "real" 2nd title.
It's all about the math man. But you know what, sometimes it isn't. It's about the heart. Fuck math. Maybe that's bad business but where would we be without the dreamers of the world that are the ones that have always been strapped for cash but continue to perceive. They aren't packing up so I still have faith in DP. I just think the next build with a new CM is gonna be slightly different.
i.e more cost effective i.e no bowling mech i.e. just different. Let's hope they get it done no matter what.
And yes,
I am hoping for parts and support. And backwards compatible White Russians.
Nunca Te Rindassssss DP!
I feel you man. But this is a math problem. Love and hope won't get us there.
And FTR, I want the game I paid for, not some scaled down version.
I would love for someone to make the case for DP to move on to a new CM and live happily ever after - using numbers and available real information. I would love to get behind that idea! I don't want it to be the that way I see it and would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be wrong.
Love of pinball, dreams, good intentions, eloquent ramblings that are not always true, ARA portrayed as boogy man (without ARA's side of the story), ignoring the financial contractual realities that we know (ARA/DP has a contract in place and there is no "DP walk away" provision lol), but embracing financial and contractual 'realities' that we don't (ARA would surely lose! DP isn't Broke!, ARA broke all the rules and DP didn't break any!) doesn't do us or DP any good.
I know some people think I am being a little harsh on DP, but giving them a pass on virtually anything they say doesn't make sense to me.
Quoted from eggbert52:Told all you morons you were wrong. Glad they are going to get the games out or at least appears so.
I guess you will be lowering the price on your game now? Asking for a moron friend of mine....
Quoted from eggbert52:It doesn't matter because in 5 years every one of the 300 TBLs will be worth $16K.
I think the numbers won't work at 300. If they get this rolling again, they will be selling way more than 300.
Quoted from rubberducks:Even if finance is quickly put in place and engineering samples all get built quickly, smoothly and work flawlessly, expectations should be modest as far as initial speed of production is concerned.
Some of the parts (for all 300 machines no less) are at ARA. Some of the suppliers don't produce many thousands of units, so replacing them may take a little while, unless ARA cave and come to an arrangement with DP to sell off the parts. If not, it may take a reasonable amount of lead time for them to get everything to both finish the run and then produce more. Case in point P-ROCs and the upper PF cars, the painting of which is all done individually by hand by one guy. Of course, the closer to production DP get, the more pressure there will be on ARA to agree to sell off all the parts and completed machines.
Good news, but a way to go.
If they create new prototype machines, I imagine they will be addressing some known mechanical issues in the ARA machines. Some of those custom parts may not be interchangeable.
Quoted from eggbert52:And they don't have to. At the end of the day your just some unknown person on a pinball board giving your opinion whereas these guys are actually trying to run a business. Big difference. If they listened to every Tom, Dick, Harry and Flynnibus they'd never get anything done.
Actually they do have to address the money part. They said so themselves in the previous NSNL. Everyone is really anxious for that hurdle to be cleared, including DP I imagine. flynnibus was rightly pointing that out. I don't think that is out of bounds or negative at all.
Also, you're.
I placed TBL in my pinside collection sometime around when I first paid for it. My change battery warning is now at 1099 days, lol.
Ahhh, I was in my 40's then. A wide eyed optimistic idealist. I dreamily thought of playing The Big Lebowski pinball machine while watching The Big Lebowski movie as I stood on a Big Lebowski rug, perhaps wearing a genuine Pendelton Big Lebowski cardigan as I sipped peacefully on White Russians.
Those were the happy days, the salad days, as they say.
Quoted from Mr_Bricks:The salad days?.... That's a different movie.
Nice catch! Same directors though... 
Quoted from CNKay:That's some funny shit right there!
And those are engineering samples.
Keep drinking white Russians and maybe you'll forget you lost all that money.
You dudes need a reality check.
I like to poop in the morning too. I just don't do it on threads.
Most of us here with skin in this game are well aware of the realities, regardless of where we on the spectrum of support/scrutiny.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Today is my 3-year anniversary of paying for my TBL. Woohoo.
I used to include it in the "owned" section of my collection on Pinside as I was confident that it would arrive in 2015 and then certain of it by summer 2016. Now it just resides on my "wishlist".
I just moved mine to the wishlist too. Made sense before, but now that they exist its tough to keep it in the 'owned' section. Maybe Robin should add a 'prepaid but not delivered' section....
Quoted from eggbert52:Funny, mine sits in my "owned" section.
Quoted from eggbert52:I think you hurt RTR's feelings. Oh well.
Wow, I've never had a stalker before, how exciting!! 
I am glad you have a machine eggy, just like I am glad for everyone else that has one. You should finally go watch the movie now, it will enhance your enjoyment of the pin.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:#51 - "Alex Jones"
It's not uplifting; Bruce is REALLY pessimistic re: DP making any more TBL's.
DP has put their cards on the table. Claims to have a deal with a new CM to make the game and has begun ordering parts for it. They appear to be walking away from ARA, the parts, and the contract. If that doesn't cause a lawsuit to happen, I don't know what would.
So, whatever is gonna happen ought to happen soon.
If there are problems working with a new CM, I don't think it will be with using ARA's IP. That's probably a non-issue and easily worked around.
It will be the ARA/DP contract and whether DP will be able to walk on it without settling up. Maybe they can, who knows?
I still have the crow in the fridge. Hoping I can put some hot sauce on it in November....
I am pretty sure ARA can sell all that stuff if they want to do so. ARA hasn't liquidated TBL stock for very good reasons - it ain't over yet.
Don't be shocked if ARA and DP come to terms and get the production lines rolling again, or sue each other, or arrange for the new CM to buy the old stock. The old stock will be worth more to DP/new CM than anyone else.
Watched the video. Here are the highlights if you are interested:
- They believe they can skip prototypes altogether and begin with engineering (0 series) samples, possibly having them built by October (this sounded like a blue sky forecast, but that's fine). Not sure what this means in regards to testing, that would be a great question for the next update.
- He did kind of gloss over the shared IP (ARA and DP developing a custom part, for example) question. But if that's a problem, it will come up by the time they have an engineering sample at a show.
- He discussed financing!! Seems like the new CM isn't interested in completely being the bank. He said that they (new CM) believes that the extra machines ordered by CT and Nitro (there are 200 of these, per Jaap) that have $1000 deposits on them can help pay for the 130 that have been paid for already. The quote was something like "being creative in how we build and ship the 200". Jaap believes DP has enough money in the bank that the profit from the 200 CT/Nitro machines + money in bank, will be enough to make the whole project (all 330 machines) cash flow. I took this to mean that they may be producing some of the 200 and the 130 at the same time in order to make the money work.
- There are more Lebowskis on the way! Says they will engage a small number of Distros in Europe to sell additional machines at some point in the future. He envisions as many as 600 machines posssibly built through the new CM between Nitro/CT and some new sales efforts in Europe.
All in all, I thought this was their best update ever. He used actual numbers, talked finances, the numbers make some sense to me, and so does the plan so far.
Quoted from fosaisu:Or maybe the 200 CT/Nitro games would ship first (to bring in new revenue), and then the fully-paid games would ship (since they won't bring additional cash flow)? I did not watch the video but the quotes you provide seemingly could go either way. That would be a bummer for existing orders, of course, but similar to what happened with WOZ as I understand it, and perhaps the only way they could get the games made at this point.
Good point. They aren't out of money though, I could see them doing a little of both. If they are building 5 machines a week, maybe 3 Early Achievers and 2 New Achievers. Depends on their banked money I suppose.
I submitted that as a question for their next update.
Quoted from Khabbi:So is it safe to say that with engineering new parts there is a chance they will make some of the parts different, which could make it more difficult for the original machines to get replacement parts?
If you have a concern, shoot them an email. Jaap will probably answer it in the next video update. Here the questions I submitted:
- Will you have a testing period for the 0 series?
-There were a few mechanical issues that some people reported in the released games, will you be fixing these or doing anything differently in the new build?
- I understand the new money is definitely in the 200 machines that CT/Nitro have sold and are holding deposits on. I can understand being creative on when machines ship to help cash flow. Do you anticipate shipping to both EAs and 'New Achievers' as you build machines? Or will you be sending New Achievers out first?
Quoted from luvthatapex2:you might want to specify which mechanical issues specifically that people reported. you don't want a blanket statement that all issues are fixed unless you know which ones are issues.
I'd like to know about software support and going further. They don't have a programmer anymore and its not a system that anyone can jump in and update.
Someone else will need to ask about the mech issues. I was only passively interested since I didn't have my game at the time they were being discussed.
I would bet they have the software dev figured out since they plan on making 600 more TBLs, but that would be a great question to ask.
Quoted from colonel_caverne:personnaly, I think here the mess is An error in the financial statement of the project or an agreement failure with subcontractors...
Does someone know what is problem here?
So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...
1 week later
Thread traffic is direclty related to news from DP and subsequent discussion more than anything else.
And the negativity is is inversely related to the quality and substance of the updates, the last of which was pretty good as far as they go.
3 weeks later
Quoted from RTR:Hope I get to eat this delicious crow in November. I have it ready to go, but will be in the fridge until then!
Just moved the crow from the fridge to the freezer...
Quoted from unigroove:Talked to Jaap this morning and asked about them being sued by ARA, as is suggested a few posts earlier in this thread. That was news to him. He hadn't heard from ARA since April and they haven't been sued either.
Hard to believe a suit won't happen between DP and ARA at some point, but thanks for identifying this as rumor Unigroove.
1 week later
3 weeks later
Quoted from NeilMcRae:id want to hear from the bank manager more than the CM
I don't think he is coming, so we have to play the hand we are dealt.
1 week later
Quoted from Rarehero:Not sure I should post anymore since I'm not a member....but I got 100% of my $8500.
Now I'm trying to decide if I should sell my entire BOP w/ 2.0 or just remove the kit & sell that.
Then I will truly be free of "all this".
I wish everyone the best. I hope everyone gets their money or games.
Peace & Love.
So did you get a refund from DP with your Universal blackmail scheme or did you sell your spot?
Quoted from Rarehero:I had no blackmail scheme. I was looking for information from the licensor of the product that I paid $8500 for, hadn't received, and wasn't receiving reliable information about.
Listen to the podcast if you actually wanna know.
So, I assume you took the refund and then didn't call Universal?
Don't make me listen to the podcast. I was going on previous posts that made it look like you sold your spot.
Quoted from phil-lee:Pre-order is a patient crowd.
It can be a rough crowd sometimes.
Quoted from Rarehero:Don't make me type out what I've already explained in convenient audio form. Instead of continuing false assumptions and accusations, my story is there for anyone to listen to on Kornado's Panbool Pordcast.
So DP gave you the money and you didn't call Universal?
If you are happy with what you did, just say yes. I typed it all out for you.
FWIW, you type a lot anyway.
Quoted from Rarehero:You're promoting a false narrative. Stop it. If you want to be lazy and not listen to the facts, that's on you. Stop slandering me.
Slander, lol. Pushing for a refund in exchange for NOT contacting Universal is all you talked about 4 months ago. So just tell us - Did you get a refund from DP in exchange for not contacting Universal or not?
You've posted 4 times already. You could have answered this an hour ago. I'm really just curious. Heck, I might want in on it.
Also curious as to why you are promoting Kaneda's pinball podcast so hard. He got kicked out of here for continuous shit stirring, I genuinely want to know why you guys hooked up.
Quoted from Rarehero:Literally everything you keep repeating is wrong.
You keep typing falsehoods when you could have listened to 10 minutes of a podcast to hear the true story.
There's zero truth to this narrative that I'm a villain in this situation.
I'm not promoting anything. I discussed my story with a friend. It's available for you to listen to. Unless you're deaf...are you deaf?
I'm not repeating anything, just asking questions. I don't want to listen to your podcast. You could have told your story in a lot fewer keystrokes if you wanted to.
A lot of people ask and answer questions in written format here. If you don't want to, no problem.
Quoted from Rarehero:What's with this Fiji thing? I never said anything about Fiji. Here are some facts:
-DP claims there isn't a money problem on their end.
-DP claims they're going to go to another manufacturer. That implies they have money.
-I asked DP for a refund multiple times. I was refused or ignored. I told them in my desperation for facts, I would be contacting Universal. They also ignored this - perhaps guessing I was bluffing.
-I wasn't bluffing.
-DP hated last time I talked to Universal, they asked me to contact them again and tell them I was cool with everything. I did and squashed it.
-I've had patience waiting for them to work shit out, I think they blew it with ARA by refusing the deal.
-Going back to my first point - if money's not an issue, they should refund me.
If I go to Universal again, DP's not going to like it again - they know I'll do it. Isn't it worth it to them to refund me so I'll go away? If they can afford to take this all to a new manufacturer, they can afford to refund me.
They called my bluff, I'm calling theirs. What other power do I have as a customer right now? I chose to wield it.
Two things can stop me:
1. Refund. I vanish.
2. ABSOULUTE IRREFUTABLE FACTS about how his gaddamn situation. They trust us to know the whole truth, I can trust them again, and I shut up.
Without facts and trust, this thing is a clusterfucker free for all. That's on DP. Don't use me as your skapegoat, Rens!
Feel free to go tattle on me again.
This is a sample post of where I derived my questions from. Pretty clear you were publicly pushing for a refund in exchange for not contacting Universal. It's really the only reason I am asking. Just remain calm dude!
Calmer than you are....
Quoted from Rarehero:If I go to Universal again, DP's not going to like it again - they know I'll do it. Isn't it worth it to them to refund me so I'll go away? If they can afford to take this all to a new manufacturer, they can afford to refund me.
They called my bluff, I'm calling theirs. What other power do I have as a customer right now? I chose to wield it.
Two things can stop me:
1. Refund. I vanish.
2. ABSOULUTE IRREFUTABLE FACTS about how his gaddamn situation. They trust us to know the whole truth, I can trust them again, and I shut up
I mean, that's not exactly a summary of the entire post. That just covered your two calls to Universal. You did infer that you would call Universal a third time in that post. It was an "or else" statement. I clipped it out for clarity above. This was the time I was referring to that you didn't call Universal and it appeared to = refund.
At the time, you downplayed it as someone (magically) bought your spot. And you vanished for a while. The timing was weird, but what the heck I didn't care. I only got interested in it today because you referred to it as a refund, which made more sense to me.
But cool, thanks for clearing that up. Peace.
This thread attracts a lot of trolls and Donnies for some reason. Especially trolls with no rug, if you know what I mean.
DP has a plan, they seem to be executing on it. Its not the plan I would have chosen, but it's not my company.
Do we have concerns? Of course we have concerns Dude. But I see progress. I don't mind a Chinese TBL, if that's the proper nomenclature. Long as I get one some day.
I don't care if the Rugless still comment. I am just observing that the thread attracts a lot them. Seems like some people just like to be negative at every opportunity. The Donnie's can comment all they like too, they are just annoying.
I don't like DP's current plan and have been pretty vocal about it, on the forum and in emails directly to them. But this is the plan they are following. Who would think it easier to go to China and start from scratch when you have parts, people, and process ready to go, right down the street? In a land where you know the people and the language?
But, it could work. At least they aren't in China on their own trying to figure it out. They have a CM working on their behalf that has a history in China, with the factory and group of workers. I have lots of MIC stuff in my house that works just fine!
Quoted from NeilMcRae:I guess we are just fed up of our fellow Pinball mates being ripped off.
I was just thinking that maybe it was just selfless concern for the well being of others. I think you nailed it.
The fact that neither company has sued the other thus far, leads me to believe they both have poor chances of prevailing or prospering with a win. The amount in question - 30 or so completed machines, parts for another 200 or so, is pretty small in the scheme of things for ARA.
Probably both parties would be better off settling in some manner. If you have ever considered suing someone that you is broke or has limited resources, you would know that winning won't mean much. Especially if you have to spend money to make it happen.
Quoted from bounoun:I havent followed this thread for a while, but am i correct to assume another 100+ pre-order units have been sold ? When did this happen ? Did they pay in full?
Welcome back Donnie.
My understanding of the distro role at this point:
They take and hold a $1,000 deposit. They let DP know another TBL is on order. DP sees no money until a unit is delivered to the distributor.
Unit is paid for by end client when it is in the possession of the distributor. Then DP gets paid.
No trust necessary in this scenario. I mean, you have to trust that the distributors are not spending your deposits, but that's about it.
Quoted from colonel_caverne:So why all who have asked refund have not been refunded? If all depends on the distributors about refund coz they still have money buyers, it should be easy to refund them. Correct?
Dude, you are maybe the biggest Donnie in this whole thread.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Distributors trust the boxes being received contain promised TBL, because they pay 100% based on physical box count. They don't cut open a few boxes to check the goods. It is not like in the movies when you have to spot test your bags of cocaine to make the the quality is good. They see 10 boxes, they pay for 10 games. I wouldn't expect anything to go wrong but it is a weak link in the distribution model.
Come on man. That's a stretch. I don't think DP will resort to sending boxes full of dirty undies.
Quoted from rubberducks:I think he's commenting more on it not being perfect, and also why they'd be paid on delivery, rather than shipment ... the latter CoinTaker were burned by with HW, repeatedly. 'Shipping' units were never shipped.
Jeff suggested the delivered boxes might be ringers. No one said anything about payment upon shipping.
Quoted from rubberducks:No, DP would be paid when machines are delivered.
The distributors are buying the machines and then selling them to their customers.
Also, some CT (and maybe Nitro) customers decided to pay in full ages ago ... why I don't know, when it wasn't required. Maybe they thought prices could go up further.
Either way, I'd strongly recommend that people do not pay in full, for any machine, until it is verifiably in stock with the distributor and awaiting final payment before delivery.
Ducks - You do realize this is exactly what I already said? No money goes to DP from the distributors until the machines are in the possession of the distributors. Delivered. On the floor. In the boxes. Off the ship. In the hole. Deposited. Received. Successfully signed for. Duly denoted. Stacked in the warehouse. This is a dead parrot.
There are so many Donnies on this thread, that it needs to be really clear that there is ZERO risk in laying down a deposit with a distributor for a new TBL. DP will not see that money until your TBL hits your distributor's floor.
If something goes wrong and the TBL is never built, CT or NITRO sends your deposit back.
Quoted from rubberducks:No, you said DP were paid after the end client paid the distributor.
"They take and hold a $1,000 deposit. They let DP know another TBL is on order. DP sees no money until a unit is delivered to the distributor.
Unit is paid for by end client when it is in the possession of the distributor. Then DP gets paid."
Ok, I see the problem. I assumed that because of your location, that you understood English.
This part:
"when it is in the possession of the distributor". The 'it' means TBL game. Meaning the distributor is in possession of the actual game. Distributor's generallly require full payment from their client (us) prior to shipment to the end client. DP gets paid afterwards.
Sure, there is risk that the distributors holding your money might do something bad. Spend it, go out of business, earthquake could swallow them up, whatever.
When I ordered my WOZ, I felt it was too risky to deal with JJP directly. So I picked a distributor and ordered through them. $1000 deposit, the balance due when the machine was on their floor and ready to be delivered to me. Balance paid, shipped to my door.
Bob's your uncle, I had my machine. Zero risk? Maybe not, but close enough.
highdef Dude - no one attacked @rarehero. I asked for clarification on how he got his "refund" and whether it was leveraged with a potential call/no call to Universal or not (per his very public post, not my inference).
You are the first person I have heard from that has paid CT directly for the game other than a deposit. I didn't even know that was an option. Are you an EA? Damn, I definitely would have gone that route (distributor) if I had known I could.
CoinTaker should clarify if this is correct or not. My understanding was they were only taking deposits for the game and that was after the EA period. And that they were personally holding deposit money, not sending it on. That would be some serious new shit if they sent deposit money to DP.
I hope they chime in like Nitro did and clarify.
Quoted from CoinTaker:This was a one time deal that we were asked to accept the final payment for DP on.
Those funds were sent directly to DP as the customer was aware of that being the deal. DP has absolutely zero dollars of any customer
who put deposits down through CoinTaker, nor did we sell any Early Achiever Editions and collect funds on.
That's what I figured. Thank you for clearing that up! I still maintain that anyone who wants in on TBL at this point has basically ZERO risk by giving CoinTaker or Nitro a deposit for the game.
Neither company is in an earthquake zone and both have solid reps. So, get your checkbooks out!
And BTW - DP has a huge pile of potential money (deposits and future payment) available once they execute their plan, but only when they do. This is not f*cked dude!
Quoted from colonel_caverne:Has DP talked about the code? Who is going to finish it?
I think The question need to be answered if DP wants to fill the new preorders list.
They have made it pretty clear that TBL is till in active development. It's pretty low on the list for people to worry about, IMO.
1 week later
2 weeks later
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:Oddly enough, I’m not sure they are implemented in software yet...
The flippers shoot a tab bit crisper but are still lacking the quick response to post pass normally.
Luckily, my post pass skills suck, so I won't notice!
1 month later
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Thanks as always for the update Rens. I'm concerned that RTR's crow is starting to get freezer burned in the meantime.
Tick ... tick ... tick ...
Well, I haven't tossed it yet, but I have moved it to the deep freeze in the garage. It's under 5 old packs of deer sausage a buddy gave me back in 08.
It's got freezer burn and it's way the hell out of date, but I still hope to eat it one day. The crow, not the deer sausage....
1 month later
2 weeks later
Quoted from sd_tom:20th anniversary of the film today! Put up a new high score on machine this am. Haven't played in a while due to guilt over this whole thing.
Hope games start shipping soon
Dude - you should feel guilty for not playing it! Play the heck out of that pin!!
Happy 20th Dudes!
Quoted from ToucanF16:rtr, that crow still in the deep-freeze?
Yup, nice and frosty.
3 weeks later
1 week later
Quoted from wcbrandes:Are these machines (that are possibly getting built), for the people who have already paid in full and are in line for...well, forever, or are they getting passed over for new sales? No one has asked and they have not bothered to mention anything on how they will make it into people who have had their hard earned money in for years.
They have said they will be producing achiever and non-achiever games at the same time to help with cash flow. They have not said what the ratio will be - 1, 1:2, etc.
Same thing happened with WOZ, I was not a prepay but got my game ahead of some who were and they were rightly pissed. Maybe this is karma for me?
Quoted from wcbrandes:They have asked me to be a plaintive in their suit. Apparently they need a certain number over there to file?
wcbrandes - Are you talking about ARA contacting you to be a plaintiff in their suit along with them?
3 weeks later
Quoted from fosaisu:And even if there's an announcement from DP, people need to continue to protect themselves as best they can until there is concrete evidence that things at DP have stabilized (i.e. games are shipping at a steady and predictable rate to old and new money folks alike). It's tempting to believe that people who love your hobby just as much as you do could never mislead you, or would be incapable of fooling themselves. But at this point, "trust but verify" has to be the rule when dealing with any boutique pinball manufacturer. Or maybe just "verify, verify, verify."
I would settle for just the 'verify' at this point.
1 week later
Quoted from titanpenguin:I really hope many of you are ready to eat crow. While many of you have been trash talking, DP has been learning the art of pinball.
I would like nothing more than to eat my avatar and then replace it with a better one!! Perhaps a Folgers can.
Quoted from highdef:Most likely because of the Ascension Day holiday (05/10) in The Netherlands.
It is not unusual for business owners to answer emails while on vacation or otherwise inconvenient. Believe me.
I cannot imagine an angel investor getting involved without requiring a large controlling interest in the company and DP refused that sort of deal at least one time that we know of.
DP has no assets aside from whatever IP they have around TBL and the BOP kit. Hard assets include a few prototypes, some parts maybe, and whatever of our money is still in their bank account.
And FWIW, the whole salary for 4 years thing is bullshit. Like we all sent them to a 4 year pinball college and they didn't graduate. I get pissed every time I hear it.
I don't think they have good news to tell us. Just a hunch, but when they have the faintest whiff of something good they drop it on us as fast as they can. No news is usually bad news with these guys. And good news is frequently bullshit stalling.
Quoted from Rensh:But this requires a big chunk of money at the start and my guess this is what we are waiting for. The approval from an investor. And this is now the status for like 4-5 months??
Rensh, do you have any good reason to say this? I am doubting they have an investor because if they did, that would be great news to share with everyone.
Quoted from PinBalt:I had a dream that I woke up on Friday and saw a new positive DP post .... "DP is proud to finally announce that the production of The Big Lebowski with our partners in Xytech Module Technologies has officially begun. How many days are left before production begins ... "Mark it zero". We are excited to share with you the photos of the initial TBL cabinets, sub-assemblies that are in process, and testing of initial machines by the Chinese Xytech production staff. We cannot state exactly when "everyone" will get their exact machine however we want to share with you our plan to both provide Early Achievers and newer customers with TBL machines. The delivery of the first 30 pinball machines will consist of a ratio of 10 machines for Achievers and 20 for new buyers. The next delivery of 50 machines will be split at a ratio of 1
We have been willing this for a while dude, it still remains a dream.
I don't think Universal would/could do anything but pull the license. I cannot see them doing anything but protecting their own interest. I also fail to see how they have any liability in this whatsoever. And I am pretty sure they have already been paid, so what do they care? I have never seen the angle of Universal Contact = EA's receiving machines. I see the opposite.
If you want to really f$ck with DP, maybe do it in their own house/country. This might be a good place to start:
https://netherlands-commercial-court.com/dispute-resolution.html This is a dutch attorney firm that handles commercial disputes. We could engage them to send DP a nasty-gram on our behalf for failure to deliver.
Or here - have an attorney here write a letter and contact the Netherlands Embassy.https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/countries/united-states
Or here - https://www.consuwijzer.nl/klacht-indienen-bij-consuwijzer This is supposed to be a Dutch Consumer Complaint organization, but I haven't figured out how to translate the page yet.
Quoted from iceman44:What has led you to this conclusion?
Just to be clear, although my opinion is that the Universal route is a dead end, I don't care what anyone does at this point.
Call their moms. Report a 162 pinball thefts to the local police in their town.
Send pizza delivery to their homes every hour until we get a newsletter.
They have acted and are acting like complete asshats.
Quoted from RTR:I don't think they have good news to tell us. Just a hunch, but when they have the faintest whiff of something good they drop it on us as fast as they can. No news is usually bad news with these guys. And good news is frequently bullshit stalling.
Well shit. Looks like my hunch was right.
If only they would have listened!
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-values-your-advice-on-tbl-vote-here/page/2#post-3835516
Quoted from Nikonokin:I'm literally the next in line. So...this is extra painful.
At least you weren't stupid enough to have a machine sitting at Cointaker's warehouse waiting on you and then you traded it for a future machine that was yet to be built!!!!! That guy!! LOLOLOL!!!!!
Oh wait, that was me...dammit.
Quoted from highdef:1) Are there any EAs located in Illinois? Please PM me.
2) Is it possible to get a roll call of active Pinsiders who paid in full? Please PM me if you haven't already and want to be noted.
Dude, for what reason?
Quoted from highdef:Was BoP 25th Anniversary SLE DP's downfall? I'm curious to know how DP funded the development of that game. We don't know if it was BoP 2.0 money that funded it, but they didn't feel the need to collect preorders (there wasn't much interest anyways). In hindsight, maybe they should've collected the $12,500 on each game to complete their pyramid scheme. And what happened to VDL? Xytech must've been cheaper and more accommodating on payment.
Either way, I think it's safe to say DP has burned a few bridges with all these CMs. Poor Xytech flew to Chicago for Pinball Expo '17. DP then spent all that time in China bringing them up-to-speed on production. What a waste.
Per the 03/25/17 newsletter:
"As you know, our Contract Manufacturer ARA stopped the production of TBL because of a dispute. We will recap what happened:
April 2015
ARA and DP signed a contract that says that DP will buy 300 TBLs from ARA, delivered between April and October 2015.
May 2015
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated. DP agrees with the new price.
April 2016
First shipment of TBL.
June 2016
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated (again). This time, ARA demands over €1.000 extra per TBL. After several negotiations, DP agrees with this new price, but only under the condition that ARA seriously speeds up production and delivers 300 TBL plus 50 units of our second title: Bride of Pinbot 25th anniversary, before December 31, 2016.
October 2016
DP finds out that ARA has not ordered a single part for the 50 BoP25s. When DP confronts ARA with this, ARA insists on the higher price. DP refuses to pay this price since the condition will not be realized. ARA announces production stop of TBL.
Nov 2016 – Feb 2017
Several negotiations between ARA and DP but no solution.
March 2017
Radio silence between ARA and DP.
The production of TBL has stopped. ARA has about 40 games ready to ship. ARA still has a lot of parts in the factory to build the 300 TBLs including P3ROCs that are paid by DP (over $100.000). DP paid ARA a lot of money for engineering, prototypes and engineering samples.
We now are in the situation that our attorney talks to their attorney and this will probably take months/years. The production of TBL has stopped until the attorneys come up with a solution that both parties agree on.
We have several options:
1 – Start a legal procedure and wait.
2 – Give up.
3 – Find an alternative Contract Manufacturer to produce TBL and/or BoP25.
First of all: we won’t give up! We will not let anyone take away our dream: bring fun to the (pinball)world!
... and we want it Dude. That’s why we won’t be sitting on our hands, waiting for the attorney to do his job. We want to move on and live our dream: bring fun to the (pinball)world. That’s why we talked to several potential Contract Manufacturers and it looks like we will do business with the VDL Group. A very big Dutch company that produces a.o. BMW cars in The Netherlands. They are very interested in starting the project but they suggest to start on a smaller scale. We have planned to build a series of max.150 units of The Bride of Pinbot 25th Anniversary Super Limited Edition, 100 for the USA and 50 for the rest of the World. If all goes well, we will start building a regular version of BoP25, to be build by VDL. If in the meantime, we come to an agreement with ARA, we can start building TBL as soon as possible, time will tell.
Today we started selling BoP25 in the US and Canada via Cointaker and Nitro Amusements. The price will be $12,500 and they will not take pre-orders. If you are interested, you can reserve your spot for $250 and you will receive a translite. The rest of the payment will be right before the game ships. Please understand that DP has no down payments from Cointaker nor Nitro Amusements and we will keep it like that.
We have acquired the license from PPS and we are finalizing the artwork of the cabinet, we already have approval for the artwork of the translite and the playfield."
Lets not forget Dude that keeping wildlife, um... an amphibious rodent, for... um, ya know domestic... within the city... that ain't legal either.
I have been blowing off a little steam with my posts. Don't mistake my flippant attitude for surrender, I am still serious but realistic.
DP should always have taken the ARA deal. I was pretty vocal about that. They would have delivered games by now if they had. Now their life will be eaten up by a lawsuit as it also eats whatever is left of our money. I would imagine that both Jaap and Barry had to personally guarantee the contract so they will likely be financially ruined too.
I always thought the ARA problem was still lurking and going to bite them in the ass. Also another good reason for outside investors to steer clear of DP. The first being DP's dishonesty, assholery, and buffoonery.
They would be wise to roll over and do whatever ARA tells them to do now too. They could still make this work on ARA's terms, even if those terms include them being 100% out. But they are probably too stupid to do it.
This problem is 100% DP's fault - those of you still standing up for Jaap and Barry with the 'good heart' defense just need to quit. Jaap and Barry are every much the Pinball Pariahs that Jpop and others that have stolen money and mislead well intentioned people are.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:FYI (and FWIW) to all: I emailed Barry and Jaap yesterday asking how long they anticipate that this may take in court and Jaap responded back that it will take at least 8-9 months according to their attorney. Jaap also stated that it will all depend on the court's decision, but I'm not sure whether he was referring to the duration or the outcome.
Why even bother asking Jaap or Barry about any of this? Serious question.
If ARA could legally sell the completed games, they would. Either DP has the TBL license and is preventing ARA from doing so legally or ARA is afraid that without prevailing in the litigation against DP they cannot legally sell those games.
DP could absolutely continue with Xytech if they had funds to do so and weren't infringing upon any sort of ARA owned IP. So one or both things are stopping them. ARA won't let them use the ARA owned IP or (more likely) DP doesn't have the money to move forward with Xytech and no one will lend DP money (including Xytech) with the ARA litigation hanging over them because they are afraid DP will be unable to repay the loan.
Also DP lies about stuff, hides information, and has never been able to get out of their own way. And ARA isn't talking. So no one really knows shit.
Quoted from Ballypinball:They did want 51% share in DP , so wouldn't that indicate they wanted to be in the pinball business
ARA wanted to be in the business of getting paid what they were owed. Taking Jaap and Barry out of the decision making process and gaining majority control would have facilitated that.
Jaap and Barry would be wise to try and work things out with ARA even now. DP is finished in this business forever. Reputation gone. Pinball Poison. Flippers finished. Knockers up. Pops pooped. SDTM. Their game is over. DP finally DP'd themselves.
In other words, there is not a company left for DP to save. Can you imagine anyone doing business with them ever? Sure, EternalLife and a few others might still believe, but there are not enough people out there like that to keep DP going. No one would ever invest in the DP shit show with Jaap and Barry controlling the company.
They should maintain some sense of dignity and honor, settle with ARA, and let some grown ups take over the DP project.
Quoted from Rensh:Also remember DP didn’t want to agree to 51/49 as that would give ÄRA full control to do whatever they like. God knows what they would have done.
Can you explain how ARA would have been worse than DP in this scenario? ARA would have at least gotten more games to owners. They certainly would not have delivered fewer games, lol. They would have run the thing like a damn business. Not a 4+ year free load for Jaap and Barry.
ARA would have at least fired Jaap and Barry as employees and stopped them from sucking at the big tit of Early Achiever money without delivering anything. The whole "taking a salary" deal was (and is if they are still taking a salary) clearly a scam. So was all their travel and whatever else they did with our money. (Hey DP - please prove me wrong with some financials, I will eat my crow)
There were points in this process that Jaap and Barry could have made the right, albeit painful, choices the company, for the good of their financial backers (Early Achievers), but they chose to do the easier and best things for Jaap and Barry and f$ck everyone else. Now they have shit for a company, nothing to show for it, have screwed all the people that have tried to help them, and have probably doomed this project.
No one thought BOP 25 was a good idea. The vast majority of backers knew - and expressed - that walking away from the ARA deal was a mistake. Yet DP tried to gaslight people that DP had support (from who?!?!?!) for their dumbass ARA decision.
Bottom line - Jaap and Barry made and continue to make selfish, greedy, dishonest, and just downright poor business decisions. They deserve ZERO support and should be ostracized from the pinball community.
Quoted from Brijam:It's odd that people are starting to think they shouldn't have taken salaries. How were they supposed to eat?
It's just as odd that people think DP shouldn't have gone to pinball events to promote their game. They don't sell themselves.
I can understand a very modest salary while your company is getting off the ground and while you are performing full time work for said company. My beef is taking a salary while nothing is happening. Nothing has been happening for most of the 4 plus years now. Attending to self-inflicted wounds is not a legitimate use of 'salary'.
How long do you think one should take a 'salary' from loaned money under those circumstances? What would your bank say about using your line of credit in this manner. (hint, they would say no.). The EA's are/were the bank. So I can say whatever the hell I want about misuse of these funds.
I understand traveling and promoting your product when you need the sales. Not when you have a backorder of hundreds of units and you need to conserve cash. Not to promote a dumbass non-TBL idea (BOP 25). Not to engage another CM when you haven't resolved the situation with your current CM.
Just because something starts out feeling legit does not mean it didn't take a turn somewhere into scam territory - intentionally or unintentionally. Jaap and Barry made decisions with our money and on this project that hurt the EA's and benefitted them personally - gave them 4 plus years of 'salaried employment'. Now it looks like we are paying legal bills for their self-serving and poor decisions. That feels scammy to me.
What is the difference, at this point, between what Jpop did with investors money and what DP has done and is doing?
Quoted from Brijam:We don't know they kept drawing a salary, and from where I'm sitting it looks like something was happening -- they got a second CM to produce a machine in China. That's a first AFAIK, and not an easy thing to do.
Candidly I feel like your arguments lose a lot of power when you make statements like "nothing was happening for most of the 4 plus years." Clearly things have been happening. They haven't been happening fast enough for, well anyone I expect.See this is what I'm talking about. Of course you can say whatever the hell you want.
That doesn't make you right.
All you are doing is confusing the issue. This doesn't add power to your claim.
You didn't loan DP money. You ordered a pinball machine. You are a customer. Not a bank. Not an equity partner.
You haven't received your pinball machine. That sucks. I would be livid. But the reality is that your recourse is limited at this point.
Regarding lines of credit, I often used my business line of credit for payroll. That is absolutely a permitted use.We have to agree to disagree on this one probably. The time to start working on a new product depends on a lot of things, but given the long amount of time it takes to design and field a new pin, and the relatively short sales cycle of a pin, I'd say they were doing the right thing to have another product lined up post TBL.
I have no comment about whether or not BOP 25 was good or bad. Never played it and don't know much about it, apart from liking BOP 2.0).
It seems reasonable to me to pursue a second CM if your first one won't produce machines at a price you committed to sell them for.No, a scam has to be intentional to be a scam. Let's call things what they are. They did a piss-poor job of communicating, they may have made some very bad business decisions. I'm not seeing a scam.
Well, I'm sure there are people better qualified with the whole Jpop thing but just to run down the notable differences that jump out at me:
0) I own and enjoy quite a few old Jpop games. But I don't recall reading a good review of Magic Girl, though it's hard to say since it really wasn't finished, was it? On the other hand, TBL is widely regarded as a very good pin. Not just a good one. A very good one. This is significant, because intent to sell a hit is very different from intent to sell a game that may turn out great if I just had another million or two dollars.
1) From what I have read didn't Jpop have a history of selling pre-orders for several pins that weren't delivered? Didn't he only deliver something like 10 Magic Girls, and they weren't really finished or playable? At least that's what I understand a court to have determined. I think the court found a history of a failure to deliver, and an attempt to deliver a non-working product as a working product. In contrast with DP which looks like a contract dispute that we don't know much about at all.
2) I also understand that Jpop was asking for pre-order money much more aggressively. I contrast that with DP, who once they found out that their CM couldn't deliver, refused money even though people were throwing it at them. I don't see an intent to defraud people from DP. If defrauding was their goal, I'd expect them to have been standing next to their Chinese TBL with an order book in hand at the shows they went to, and I don't believe that happened.
3) I don't think Jpop had a contract with a CM - wasn't his plan to build them in his basement or something as a boutique, turning out just a few copies of each title? I may be mixed up about that. If that's the case, the failure would seem to point much more to Jpop. Again, in DP's case there is an unsettled dispute with a CM that stopped making machines for reasons we don't know.
4) I'm unaware of the state of Jpop's ability to manufacture more Magic Girls. Perhaps with Deeproot's backing, Magic Girl can be completed and rolled out. However, with DP there is a completed pin that works great: TBL. The sample from CM#2 appears and plays identical to the production machines from CM#1. It looks like TBL's could roll off the line /if/ this contract dispute is settled.
I find these differences substantial.
Man, you spent a shitload of time on that post for someone with no skin in this game. Someone summarize what this rugless person thinks about the situation please.
Lots of chatter about whether DP 'had to pay themselves' or not. Sorry guys, we had no choice! We hated it, but had to to take the money!!
So I posted the question on Quora and solicited people from the Netherlands on the matter. Here is the first response from a guy in Ommen, Netherlands:
I will let you know if more people respond. Looks like they didn't 'have' to set this up to benefit them so much.
Quoted from Rarehero:DP holds nothing. ARA had a business building other stuff before DP & will continue after DP. DP has nothing without someone to build games for them.
It's worse than that. DP holds less than nothing. They require financial assistance to make this happen now because of their gross mismanagement. And no one will lend them the money.
Quoted from Rensh:I double checked and by Dutch law you have to take approx 45KEUR annual salary, or at least pay the taxes on it. Only in very special circumstances you can ask for a lower salary. This to be determined by the tax department.
Looking at the personal taking a salary there is first of all programmer Koen who was just a regular employee. Nobody will say he shouldn’t have gotten a salary I assume.
Leaves Barry and Jaap. Starting (or trying to start is perhaps better here) a pinball company is typical not a part time job you do in the evening. So if you do this full time from start 2014? where do you live from? And remember, if ÄRA would have worked according to contract deliveries would have taken place in 2015/16. Their business strategy must have been based on that schedule where calculations based on profit from delivered tbl’s showed the possibility of a salary which they needed to be able to try this. And again, at that moment no signs this would be impossible.
I realize it doesn’t feel fair that we EA get , perhaps to likely, nothing while they had a salary. Also I am struggling with this but business wise it’s how it is.
I get that Koen was paid a salary and he should have been. But when his job was finished, so was his salary. I get that Barry and Jaap's business plan included them taking a salary during the start up phase until the company started cash flowing from sales.
When business realities change, the business plan must change with the reality. If they have been taking salary since 2014, there have been long stretches of time when this was not really a job anymore. Siphoning money off during this time as salary was dumb at best and at worst maybe illegal.
Just do the math. Even if you believe it is ok to pull salary on the pro forma profits of the unbuilt machines, at some point, they started using the portion of the money that was to be used to pay for the parts and the building of the machines. They kept digging the hole they are in, when they should have put down the shovel. Both through misuse of funds and poor decisions. And that is my beef.
They made a great pinball machine, but made really bad business decisions and stupidly violated the most important rule of starting a business: Don't run out of money.
Quoted from EternalLife:RTR, In summary, Brijam posted "take it easy man, nothing is fu@ked here" ... Keep posting Brijam -I like your style Dude
You should change your name to EternalOptimist!
For the record, I would love for DP to pull a rabbit out of their hat, build everyone's machine (mine first, lol) and save the day.
Then I will apologize to you for being wrong as I eat my avatar. That would be awesome. I just can't look at what has happened and see it going that way.
Quoted from EternalLife:Hey RTR, For me it's only a numbers game - the numbers are still leaning heavily in our favor that DP will come out on top and deliver all the games to the EA's. ARA's numbers are extremely bad as the CM for TBL so that's good for DP in a big way.
Please share your numbers, I'm all about numbers and what I can see.
Quoted from EternalLife:To be a competent CM you need to be at 95%. Margin of error is only plus or minus 5% on cost, delivery, and schedule. The CM develops the cost, delivery and schedule which is agreed to by the customer.
ARA had 2 working models to create the DP estimate, they should have been very aware of what they were getting into when they signed on to do TBL. No major changes happened, we did lose the lighted apron and bowling ball start button - that would have made the game easier to produce for ARA not more difficult.
TBL was a DP contract for 300 games, 210 day schedule, cost we'll guess at $6000.
ARA delivered 50 games to DP, in 420 days, cost is again unknown but 2 increases we'll guess - $7800.
Run ARA's percentages and see for yourself how ARA rates as the CM for TBL.
Quoted from Rensh:The proto was also built and developed by ÄRA. After those were built a pre-estimation was increased to a fixed number by ÄRA. They should have known exactly what they were building.
However, apparently not
So It was not that DP brought them a proto which they had to duplicate. They knew what they were supposed to built. Apparently they used a broken calculator
Guys - Your hearts are in the right place, but those are not numbers. Those are crossed fingers and hopes that ARA are the ones that screwed this up. That the court will see it that way. That the court will award DP so much money that it will bail DP out of their sequentially worse and worse business and financial decisions. And that DP will have enough money through this newly found largesse to make everything good for the Extra Aggrieved, oops I mean Early Achievers.
Try working on the most important number imaginable - the number of dollars that DP has left in the bank after their terrible business decisions. That number does not inspire hope.
Quoted from Roostking:(edited)
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I won't be bashing the country, they are the 6th happiest place to live. And we don't need a derail into politics!
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/these-are-the-top-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world.html
Rensh Will any of the court documents be publicly available over there? Usually you can get a copy of the complaint here in the states.
Also, it would be great to get copies of the counter suit from DP and post them here for everyone. Neither of these would likely be covered under any sort of NDA and both will come out eventually. I say the sooner it comes out the better.
Perhaps you could ask Barry for a copy of both documents. If so, it would be informative to translate and post on this thread. That would be the first real information we would have ever received.
Quoted from highdef:Paint is not a major habitability issue like no heat or water. The point of the analogy is that ARA manufactured 50-90 games. Based on feedback from EAs, there weren't any significant quality issues that would hold the line, unless it had to do with the boards. Why do you think DP used this as the excuse back in late 2016? We know there wasn't an issue with the board(s). How was one batch good and the next bad? What could've changed? NOTHING. ARA wouldn't be going after DP or demanding more money if the boards were an issue.
I can't think of any reason why they'd stop production after 90 games. ARA may have been late on schedule but that doesn't negate DP's obligation to pay for those 90 games or the 300 that were agreed upon.
I could see renegotiation after the 300 games, but not after 90 games. DP claims ARA has parts and materials for 300 games, so this says DP and ARA intended to build 300 games. Is it wrong to assume they did a contract for 300 games? No one has provided any facts to support this wasn't a monetary dispute.
There would be no dispute and ARA wouldn't have "summoned" DP had they been paid. We had a chance to get these games back on the line when negotiations were being held in early 2017. Here we are a year later and no games. As others have stated, this was more about DP's own welfare and not its customers. We now have to pay for their missteps. Giving ARA the impression (and opportunity) to demand more money was a major misstep.
Don't waste your time with Donnie, I don't think he's even seen the movie.
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