Quoted from burningman:
Just got this from Barry...finishing up lighting
tbl prod proto.JPG
Thanks for the photo. That is one WHITE Russian.
If they don't make the sound files unmoddable, then it's cool by me.
If they however lock down the files via encryption, then I want out.
At Pinball Life yesterday, confirmed with DP programmer that music files, while not released with the master tracks, would NOT be encrypted/locked down.
That is, theoretically, someone could probably find a way to painlessly change the music files to their liking (without official dp support).
Quoted from Fishbeadtwo:
Not to change the topic here or anything but does anyone know if the call outs will have family and nsfw settings? Like Goodman saying"this is what happens...." Or Bunny saying her famous" I'll suck your ........" ?
My understanding is that it was previously announced a while back that there would be a family friendly mode. Also since then, playfield art has removed cannabis image.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Jaap said that they got the first production model from the factory - and could have shipped them - but they were shit and had to make changes. The new production models will be at DPO in Nov. so - even though he wouldn't give us a date (seems to be the new MO for anyone but Stern) - it's clearly "close".
There's nothing blind about my faith. I own BOP 2.0. They've shipped me an awesome functional and supported product. I've played the Lebowski protos and seen the pics of the production model. Focus on $$$? Why? This isn't an egomaniac in a garage or a meth head in a basement - these are guys who have produced. "Pinball is hard" so yes there are delays and issues, but these guys have it together. All the evidence is clear...no one is blind.
Totally agree with this. I do not not NOT think at all that this pin is vapor. It is legitimate. It still commands long lines at expo. Sound is fine as is and likely user modifiable unofficially and in unsupported fashion.
If Jaap didn't like the initial production run, and delayed so they could up the quality, his priorities are straight. Better slow at this point, given this is a legitimate business, and produced well than rushed and poor quality.
Quoted from highdef:
You can definitely get your $$$ back.
I personally feel the game is over-budget or at least very close to it. If you disagree with me, at least make your counterpoint.
The exchange rate is hurting the bottom line for those doing business in Europe. The Euro took a beating over the last year, but it is still in DP's favor to get this game out ASAP and sell as many as possible before the Euro is in line with the US dollar.
China's economy has a bad cold right now and it's about to give the rest of the world the cooties in the very near future. Don't believe for a second that China can't implode. And let's not pretend there isn't a real estate/tech bubble in the US, Canada, UK, Australia, China, and elsewhere. This and the fact that 2016 is an election year in the US. Our job market may be doing well right now, but people aren't getting raises and Millennials aren't spending. Retirement costs are rising faster than Social Security benefits. I could go on. Wait until April when the corporate Q1 '16 earning reports start coming out. It is going to start getting rocky. This affects all of us. Any pin collector should think twice about their NIB purchases (and financial strength) moving forward. We're technically overdue for what lies ahead. And don't be surprised to see a surplus of pins and other "toys" for sale over the next few years as people prioritize their discretionary income (or deal with job losses). I'm willing to bet money with anyone that doubts what I'm stating here.
I think DP would love to charge more for this game, but do what you have to do. At least, keep these economic factors in mind. If you're going to pull the trigger, why spend more later?
I'm not an expert in international business by any means, but the exchange rate only bites dp in the ass when they have to convert euros to dollars, right? In fact, if they havea sizable amount of preorder money in dollars from 1-2 years ago, before they became much more valuable vs the euro, then shouldn't that be HELPING a lot? And if, in fact, DP intends to so more future business in dollars, shouldn't they simply keep their dollar sales as dollars, using them to fund purchases required to be in dollars?
Theoretically, since I know licensing laws are different in different countries, couldn't DP make an EU edition, that uses more extensively the music and video clips with proper clip length, etc. But also make a US edition that is more nerfed, but compliant with licensing?
While this is obviously not good information, it helps to know that all the main players involved have significant skin in the game and hence incentive to resolve it amicably.
There is significant amount already sunk into this project in terms of licensing, design, and even construction by all parties involved.
This is not a JPop/SkidB situation at all.
So if it only takes a little bit more lighter fluid to get this fire lit, I still remain pretty confident it will happen. The incremental costs versus payout once one forgets sunk costs is just too small.
Waiting for this poker match to play out, however, sucks balls. Time is a bigger expense than uncertainty for this.
Quoted from taz:
I thought the update was great as well, for seemingly such a minor number change. Hopefully they can advance the code during this dispute and get back on track shipping games soon.
Right: don't look at this situation as "Contractual disagreement causes pinball delay."\
Look at it as, "Pinball title to be shipped with completed code!"
Quoted from Dkjimbo:
So not a peep yet from DP on any of this or in response to the various statements made by ARA? Man I really want this game and have admittedly cancelled my order and got my refund. I hope for the best but suspect the worst here....
To some degree, I find their limited response reassuring and consistent with how a responsible party involved in prospective legal action behaves. As opposed to morons who type out poorly thought but legally admissible statements on internet forums.
Could be just old-fashioned take-the-money-and-run, but I don't think that's consistent with DP behavior. And so much money has already been sunk into this that all the parties involved should have a large incentive to work this out, invest the relatively little more effort required to make more pins, and reap the crop.
So unhappy, but not pitchforky yet.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Dutch created the drama.
Dutch fucked it up.
Maybe it feels good to skapegoat me - that doesn't change the fact that Dutch Pinball are fuck ups and liars.
I wouldn't scapegoat you ever. This is frustrating for all of us.
On another note, what does a director for a cartoon like Family Guy do, exactly?
Do you get to fly to Seoul to stand behind a bunch of animators telling them to draw it again, but better this time?
Or do you just have to convince McFarlane to lay off the coke in exchange for some Mel Torme records?
I ask because I'm considering a career change...
Quoted from Nibbles:
You should ask Kevin Kulek, he's got first-hand experience.
I'm increasingly pessimistic, but there ARE some significant differences between this and Predator. The biggest is that there IS an ACTUAL product that is all but produced in terms of design, licensing, heck even field testing at this point. So hope remains.
Is it possible this is a currency exchange issue? That one party expected to be paid in one currency but the other expected to pay in another? That agreements were made when exchange rate between guilders and dollars were significantly different? It would explain some stalling we see on both ARA's and DP's ends...
Quoted from eggbert52:
I just love the quote from Vin Scully in "For Love of the Game" so the situation seemed fitting.
I didn't know it was from that.
I think BEFORE that it is Rudyard Kipling's poem, "If."
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
Source: A Choice of Kipling's Verse (1943)
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:
Dutch holiday was end of last week. Looks to be another one next Monday. Not that these really factor much anymore given the current status.
Maybe it would be easier to be patient if someone could provide us the dates on the calendar which are not Dutch holidays. Thanks!
Quoted from iceman44:
It was obvious from early on that Phil knew these guys were a couple of dipshits
They have lied and F ed people over from day one for their own benefit.
I had fully paid after Expo and thankfully Phil sent all the money back that he had control over.
What a cluster F
I let my desire for a TBL get the better of me. Classic con. I wanted it too badly.
Poorer and smarter I hope.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Not sure if they have any more travel plans at this point - but IMO they should be BANNED from any more Pinball Shows/Events until things are worked out. As it stands, too many pinball customers are sitting here screwed. Same goes for Andrew Heighway, John Popadiuk, and Kevin Kulek....none should be allowed at pinball shows. If they show their faces, I think there's cause to call the police...as it stands, they've all stolen from us.
I can live with this.
Okay, so what I'm getting as the story(for those who paid up front):
2019 or bust.
Yeah, it feels like a fine line between "waiting on finding a reliable contracted manufacturer" versus "paying DP managers salaries until there's no money left to pay their salaries."
Quoted from Foxis:
They are still in business because they still have some assets left in the form of preorder money. They are burning through the money that should have been used to produce the machines. Sad, but pretty much irrefutable at this point.
Quoted from Rensh:
So you might as well take it out as when you leave it in the company you have to company tax on it.
It still creates no compulsion to take it out. If you leave it in, the company pays taxes on $44k. If you take it out, the company or individual pays taxes on $44k, plus the company loses $44k. It speeds up the bleeding.
Once money is regularly coming in, THEN it's the time to take out a (reasonable) salary.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:
Have you read my post? what are you talking about, keeping this subject going on and on to keep you busy?
Lighten up, Francis.
I was politely referring to someone else's post entirely.
The one whose quote was quoted, who suggested that they might as well take a salary if they were going to be taxed anyway.
Nothing to do with your sabbatical post. Calm down.
I admit I haven't been the most patient person in the world and frustrated by this project, backing it more with my heart than my head. And suspecting that I was (and still might) get burned as a result.
But I think I'll just enjoy this last update for now.
I have to admit that I found the last video convincing that Barry and Jaap sincerely loved their project and wanted DP to make it with them at the helm. I was impressed that DP pursued and maintained the license with what must have been a considerable financial and time investment. I also was impressed that they developed the manufacturing process/manuals itself for ARA to build TBL, and hence knew it inside and out, and were not held hostage by any ARA proprietary knowledge.. It suggested to me that they were invested not just financially in this project, but heart and soul. And in that respect, I didn't question their honesty (which is more than can be said for others in this hobby...).
I just question(ed) the competence... which is another way of saying I questioned whether the money was (is) there.
But if they truly have secured a quality manufacturer, then it appears all ingredients of honesty, competence, license, and money, are there. My patience? Well, I'm working on it.
Hopefully, Barry and Jaap getting to develop and know intimately the production process for TBL while ARA apparently struggled(?) will prove invaluable with this new manufacturer.
A lot can still go wrong, so until a quality, complete, TBL arrives at each of our locations, a healthy dose of skepticism must remain. And we've got a LOT of waiting to go, even if everything goes smoothly from here on out (a BIG if...).
But this last DP newsletter message is good.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Now that Farsight’s Pinball Arcade app has lost all the B/W tables, they’re prob desperate for content. Maybe Dutch should approach Farsight & license Lebowski to them. As much as I have disdain for this whole situation, if Lebowski pinball was on Nintendo Switch for $10, I’d buy it. They’d prob sell a ton on iOS, Steam, PS4, etc....could help financial problems & put out free advertising for the game.
You’re welcome, DP.
Brilliant flipping idear./not sarcasm
Wouldn't there be licensing issues, however?
So is the dream finally dead?
Any one have Xytech contacts, since DP no longer updating?
Options for collective action for those who have lost money with DP directly?
Quoted from EternalLife:
HD - This is for you. Everyone else, please get ready to down vote I hope I get at least 16 this time.
The 20 or 40 games at ARA wouldn't count as they were never "delivered" but lets work the numbers and see how ARA comes out.
30% delivery on a contract that was over due by over seven months leaves -70% due on the contract . Terrible numbers, one could say "failing" numbers or another legal term is "fundamental breach".
The amount owed was always the question. DP wanted the original price and ARA wanted the new price even though they did not meet the contract terms or
the second agreed terms. I don't blame DP, I wouldn't pay extra for services not received. If someone ever gives you bill for services you did not receive it's in your right not to pay it until they provide you a correct bill.
DP did say to start over with a new CM and sue at the same time would not be possible. They wanted to get our games out then sue ARA for what happened. They had years to file - getting our games out was the priority suing would take place after.
ARA sees this as a win-win. Bankrupt DP and win, lose in court and write it all off.
Lets see how the courts view this, if it makes it to court.
I did offer DP more money when the ARA thing first hit, they declined. I also offered more cash last week, they declined again. I'm not affiliated with DP, I'm only an EA - our game is number 77.
I do believe in the project and the dream to play against people from all over the world and I still have no reason to believe that will not happen. It is a great game, the best original title in the last 20 years IMHO. -EL
I hope you are right.
But then again, that's all that's left: hope.
Philgate and DP's history of underreporting the facts do not make me enthusiastic at all.
When is the deadline for DP and ARA to make an agreement before the court imposes one?
Quoted from RTR:
I'm bored. How do you guys think this thread aged?
This thread is great for when I'm feeling pretty good about things and just need something to make me feel a bit like crap.
If they start delivering games, even to New money, things change. I appreciate many in the hobby won't touch DP until EAers are happy.
But I'll bet many more nonPinsiders and nonpinheads won't give a shit and will just buy.
The question then becomes does the momentum gained from New sales from selling old ARA inventory (shafting EAers again in the process) will be enough to restore confidence to float further sales to do a 1-to-1 ratio of new sale production: EA sale production.
But we're still light years away from even that.
It's a fairy tale until any deliveries actually come in to ANYONE, New money or otherwise.
Quoted from RobF:
There are two paths;
1) Boycott these 40 and no one gets the games. They go in the garbage. DP goes bankrupt. 0% chance EAs will get what they paid for.
2) Sell these 40 at the inflated price, settle with ARA and there is something greater than zero chance EA games are built before the end of time.
That doesn't mean you are wrong in your prediction, but really it is the only possibility left for pre-paid folks.
I am curious how Cointaker is protecting itself from paying for a container of half-assembled, half-corroded, non functional games?
That's about how I sees it, too.
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:
I'm not surprised that NIB TBL's are being sold as part of the settlement. Hopefully they can restart production soon so EA's can be made whole. Will be interesting to see if it's a 1 to 1 ratio of EA to non EA machines produced or if they go with 1 to 2 or 1 to 3 ratio.
Looking forward to Barry sharing the plan. Sure, it's been a debacle, but at least there is progress being made and we can get beyond the ARA dispute. Would be a great Christmas present to the EA community if all EA machines are delivered this year.
Will also be interesting to see the price for the non EA machines going forward. Maybe they can do a Jesus edition at a higher price point that has a different translite. Same for a Donny or Walter edition. I don't see the game having the same appeal if they offer a stripped down version at a lower price point that doesn't have the upper playfield, etc.
With the way the pinball market has progressed, I think it's safe to say that seeing future production units at an $8,500 price point isn't realistic unless it's stripped down.
I'm going with 1:0 until proven otherwise, though I hope I'm wrong. But who knows? I think the faster they sell out those premades allocated for New money, the better, in terms of odds that EAs get their machines.
Not a bad idea for a Jesus edition, but that opens up the licensing can of worms.
Besides, these are ALL "Hail Mary" editions.
Quoted from Coindork:
I've been thinking about this a lot in lieu of current events.
Now that ARA is supposedly made whole, Dutch Pinball is reportedly in possession with all these parts (supposedly enough to build a couple hundred machines).
It seems the biggest equation so solve here would be how to make the EA whole in a way that makes economic sense.
If they don't have the funds to start manufacturing these again, what about other alternatives?
Maybe I'm way off base as I haven't put that much thought into the logistics, but what if they shipped the EAs all the parts in the cabinet to build their machine as a kit?
Sure, it would be a lot of work on the EAs part, but seems like it would be worth it.
If you paid $8500 up front, the last 40 games sold out at $12,500 so there is economic as well as the emotional incentive to do it.
They could ship a cabinet with everything included to put the game together at home.
It might take you a few weeks to a few months or longer depending on your skillset, but at least they would get something.
Or if there is a good pinball tech in your area, I'm sure they would put it together for you for around the cost of a restore or full tear down shop job.
With really good instructions you would only need a basic knowledge of tool and soldering.
I know its not the ideal situation, but I was running scenarios though my head and thought of this.
Has ARA been "made whole"? Or do they still have claims?
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