Quoted from Lamberger:
Would have loved to grab this pin, but $15000 Canadian!?.. our dollar sucks dude.
I've got a deposit on this game with Nitro. I'm not asking for it back and I'm going to see how things play out.
I personally have been through some very difficult times in my business so I sympathize with what Dutch is up against. I'm optimistic and somewhat intrigued to see if the can pull through these very difficult times.
You can do it Barry and Jap!!! I know it probably feels like hell right now but be strong and persevere in light of all the naysayers. Don't give up, fight for this, fight for your passion!!!! You sill have many faithful standing behind you.
Quoted from colonel_caverne:
and so possibly scam more people?
I do not try to lend them bad intentions but it seems to me that Those who have fully paid their machine and waiting their game for months must be shipped first. and then take eventually more orders if some people get faith.
Customers are not banks. This is another example of a business badly thought and badly tied.
I'm a custom home builder and over the past 10 years I've been building mostly 4plex' buildings.
When a customer wants to buy one of my homes they put 10% down and that money goes "In Trust" with a lawyer. They pay nothing else until the day I'm 100% finished building their new home and they take possession. Until then the deposit has to be in trust with a lawyer....... that's the law around here. It's there to protect the customer not me. If I go under the customer is protected.
On these projects I'm usually into them for $2 to 2.5 million before I see one cent. I have to either get bank funding, use my own funds or usually a combination of both to make these projects happen. If I only sell 3 of the 4 units I don't get paid until I sell that 4th unit. All the money from the first 3 units and part of the 4th unit goes to the banks, suppliers and trades that work on these buildings.
From the time I buy the land to the time I sell the last unit can sometimes take freakin years before I even get paid.
How come pinball manufacturers don't have to follow this model of payment vs delivery of a product? Because there is no industry regulation, no laws and therefore no one to watch over the industry. My industry watches me like a hawk!!
Ultimately, pinball is the wide west and every pinball manufacturer (except, perhaps Spooky) has done some crazy ass shit with their "customers". I don't think this will ever change. It's just the nature of the pinball beast.
Quoted from colonel_caverne:
when you go and see the banker, do you go with a financial statement (with all charges, revenues, profit), sale promises?
That's pretty much how it works. Show them the purchase orders I have for future product, show how much skin I have in the game and if the banker feels it's not enough money on my part, I put more of my money towards the project to get it to fly. I get in deep and I have so much on the line I have no choice but to make it a success.
That's pretty much why pinball manufactures fail left and right, they have very little money on the line and therefore very little incentive to succeed.
Quoted from o-din:
Because their customers have no problem throwing money at them with just a wing and a prayer.
Here in lies a huge part of the problem. A banker would never fund a pinball machine based on a "theme" or a "promise". A banker would want cold hard cash from the potential builder to back up a project and it would be a hell of allot of cash.
Pinball customers regularly line up and throw money at unknown people with no balance sheet and gamble their money on nothing more than a theme and a dream. Crazy shit and when it stops people will stop loosing their money.
I find it hard to believe that after all the effort to have these games built that when it came time to pay for 50 games they couldn't come up with the money. How much was that? 50 x $7,000 = $350,000? They couldn't round up $350,000 to pay for a batch of games? Talk about being underfunded.
I have something to confess and a couple of questions:
1- I still have a $1,000 deposit sitting with Nitro Pinball out of Vancouver for a Big Lebowski game. I realize that things are super rocky but I've still got 1%-5 % hope that it still might happen. Yes, I know I'm an idiot but what the hell, it still might come through, right?
2 - If there are 50 games sitting at ARA then why doesn't Dutch just settle with ARA? They can be suborn and get nothing or they can settle and get what.... 50 games x $6,000 +/- so that 's $300,000 or so?
3 - Dutch is severely underfunded or out of money, correct? Why can't they find some financial support to see this through? A bank, an investor, their mom? I mean really, what would it take to get the train back on the tracks. A million? 1.5 million?
This whole thing appears to be pretty "small time". Not "small time' to those who have lost thousands. That is significant to those that paid damn good money for something that was promised but they never received.
I mean it's small time in terms of the actual money needed to make this project happen and deliver it to the honest/enthusiastic customers out there.
Yep, I just don't understand it all. Maybe Dutch just needs to reach out to the right people who offer them a life line and "just let go".
Barry, Japp....... sometimes it's right there, under you nose......
Quoted from Yelobird:
I think the biggest issue with your math on #2 is Even if they stole them from the plant there are MANY in line that paid in full or close to it so even releasing 50 would still yield them 0$ to build more and even less to pay the final bill due to ARA. You ask "what would it take to get it on the tracks?" A real team of people that know how to actually run a Business. Thats the step they missed all along!
Quoted from Ballypinball:
I think you will find the $500euro is what is needed to payout ARA for what is owed and games in their possession.
Then plan is sell them for $20k each which would get $600k us back, then proceed with new production in china.
Only problem is them raising $500k euro? Any billionaires out there?
You think there's 50 people out there that would pay $20k for one?
I think a few would but I don't think 20.
Quoted from Dkjimbo:
I had a deposit with Nitro for awhile and remain a day-one buyer if this gets back of the ground.
Funny, I still have a deposit with Nitro for the game. I'm either really optimistic, absurdly patient or quit possibly catastrophically stupid. I guess time will tell as history will be my judge.
Quoted from Dkjimbo:
I would imagine those have to go to the rest of the early achievers. Unless they need to sell those to new buyers to raise funds to make more...but if this is true they will sell a ton. I am sending my deposit back to nitro tomorrow!
I've still got my deposit with Tommy at Nitro. It's been with him for a couple of years now. I hope the news is true as I have had this game on my wish list for a long time.
Quoted from Billy16:
I really hope no one who wired CT the big bucks did so with the intention of flipping. That would be way beyond not cool. I'd almost bet someone does, and people will line up to buy it.
"with the intention of flipping".....
......Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
Not a feakin chance I'm flipping it if I actually get a game.
Quoted from spfxted:
Soooooooo, how bout those Mets??
You know Ted..... you're the shit!! You always take a sensitive topic and you interject a little bit of laughter and humor into the stressful situation.
I don't know what the f#ck you're all about or where your wisdom comes from, but I gotta tell ya, you are an interesting person. I hope we can cross paths one day and share a couple bottles of scotch or rum. I know I would regret all the booze that we consumed but I sure would revel in all your stories and humor.
I'm a custom home builder with a really good reputation around my town. Occasionally I get a call from someone who was building a house with another custom home builder and their working relationship with that other custom home builder has fallen apart half way through their build. They ask me if I would be interested in coming in and completing their half finished project. I have no idea what sort of quality or materials have gone into the half finished project, what hidden issue may exist and best of all, I would have to warranty the project after it was complete if I were to agree to take it over.
My answer 100% of the time is "thanks but no way, no how, no where, no chance". I'm not stepping into a relationship with anyone to take on their failed project, not now, not ever. I don't care who you are or what your failed project is. I have my own successful projects to complete.
I believe American Pinball, Chicago Gaming, Stern and Spooky will share the same views. Why would they want to step into this shit storm, join forces with Barry, take on a mountain of problems and burn through valuable time and money. There are so many other projects in the pinball world that will garner much greater returns and rewards for your company. Unless your a masochist, why would you do that?
Barry is gonna have to get this done on his own, no reputable, sane company is going to step into this situation and save him.
Quoted from CoinTaker:
Seriously, 12,500 per games airfreighted DHL with all import/export fees paid....and you think I made money...The lawsuit settlement was close to 500K....12500 x 40 is 500,000.00
Check out the rates on airfreight, duties were minimum, as only had to pay DHL to get them through customs...All games were fully insured for the 12,500.00
You do the math....
And no, we did not get any of our EA funds back on this deal....This deal was solely to get things to where they may eventually build and we all may be made whole.
If I were the type of person you are trying to make me out to be, I could have sold them for far more and made a profit...that's not who we are and what we are about...if you would like to discuss more, please feel free to call me 570-847-9595
F#ckin eh! You go girl and tell em like it is. Don't let the ignorant discourage ya!!!!!
Quoted from Pinhead1982:
Partially assembled games went out I think. Don’t hold me to that.. but Barry is aiming for 4-5 games this week.
This has been bugging me ever since Barry made this "4-5 games a week" claim.
All of the TBL games were built and assembled by ARA with a factory of skilled and talented workers who specialize in a task such as this. Now Barry has a pile of parts strewn around a storage area and he is personally going to assemble 4 to 5 games a week? ARA built 90 games in what, a year or so?
Now Barry is on track to smash the ARA production rate and crank out 208 to 260 games in the next year? Based on the picture of one single game that is half assembled and based on Barry's record over the past 4 years I am having a very difficult time believing it. A very difficult time believing anything that I am hearing or seeing based on one feakin picture.
Please be very cautious before sending any money. These claims are extremely hard to believe.
Quoted from pinballslave:
I read QSS's post to mean that there is just one photo of a half built game that Barry built... I don't think he's implying that this is a photo from ARA... and that the claim of 4-5 per week is unrealistic... what we don't know at this stage is if there are other people assembling games or not...
There is no way the ARA factory production facility looks like the picture Pinhead1982 attached.
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