(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

27 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #2465 Tips on removing the upper playfield Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2474 Photo of the updated divertor Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2477 Photos of new tilt graphics side art for TBL Posted by jGraffix (3 years ago)

Post #2506 Factory visit update! Posted by rubberducks (3 years ago)

Post #2926 DP's response to their issue with ARA and game manufacturing. Posted by JimB (2 years ago)

Post #2971 pinghetto contacts ARA for information regarding the delays Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #2973 pinghetto information regarding contacting ARA Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #3056 ARA's email response about DP's claims. Posted by CrazyLevi (2 years ago)

Post #3483 Jaap from Dutch Pinball counters the ARA story. Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3491 ARA counters the Jaap counter to ARA's previous communication! Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3650 Report from a dinner with Barry of Dutch Pinball. Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #3951 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #4259 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #5004 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5229 DP update about an alternative manufacturer Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5461 Details on June 19th DP Livestream Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #6420 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by KoenHeltzel (2 years ago)

Post #6684 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Concretehardt (1 year ago)


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#89 4 years ago

TBL is going to be at Midwest Gaming Classic next weekend! Can't wait to play it again!!

Brian

3 weeks later
#119 4 years ago

Man, we really need a Friday New Shit Newsletter today!!! Let's get that TBL spark back in the air.

#122 4 years ago

I agree to a point, Karl. But remember, not everyone is on Pinside to see Burningmans picture. An email to keep us up to date is always appreciated.

3 weeks later
#223 4 years ago
Quoted from HENSBROOKER:

May 18, 2015 - The Big Lebowski™ Pinball - Pinside FAQ edition
Dear Achiever,
We at Dutch Pinball love Pinball and one of the things we do is read Pinside. We’ve seen the list of questions gathered by ‘Pinballslave’ and we thought you would appreciate the answers to these questions so here we go!
Q: How many layers of clear with the playfield get?
The playfields for TBL will be produced by a well respected playfield builder in the industry: High Class Pinballs, Germany (Mirco). The first five playfields for the prototypes were also made by Mirco and we are very satisfied with overall quality. The playfield will be produced with extra hard wood and will be provided with three layers of clear coat for super durability.
Q: Is everything now fully approved, e.g. all intended original actors call-outs and music?
The artwork for the cabinet, playfield and translite are fully approved. We are still waiting on approval of all the audio clips and movie clips. Since the actors themselves are involved in this process this takes some time. We hope to receive approval as soon as possible.
There seem to be several questions about the license in general. We want you to know that the license was secured even before the Dude Pinball campaign at Expo 2013. The flyer campaign with the 'Pin Me Girls' on Expo 2013 was with permission from Universal. Also, here's the link to the press release we published in collaboration with Universal on December 27, 2013.
Q: Any updates on the code?
Since we've shown the prototypes the code has been in development in tandem with BoP2.0. Please understand that not much time has been invested in developing code for the first prototypes since the hardware is quite different from the production games that we are now developing for, plus the ingame assets have not been approved yet. The games at the shows are/were early prototypes and were always going to just have limited code.
Q: Will there be a flyer produced of the final approved game with a feature-gram?
Yes!
Q: What breakdowns have the prototype games experienced at shows and have they been addressed?
Making five prototypes was probably the best thing we ever did. Every single prototype had some different issues and we documented all 'breakdowns', ball hang ups and other bugs. With these lists of issues we've completely redesigned some parts and tweaked the design to be as perfect as possible. At this point we're testing all the changes in our pre-production prototype. To give an example of some issues, here's a short list of some of the changes:
Redesign of the Rug Toy. We experienced some breakdowns with the prototypes so we redesigned the toy and the new and improved toy survived 100.000+ beatings, so we are confident the new rug toy is perfect now!
Most of the ball guides were too short, or didn't have enough points to keep it in the right place. So all ball guides have been redesigned and tested on the pre-pro prototype, they are spot on now.
The car toys has also been upgraded with better 'end of stroke' detection, so it opens and closes perfectly now.
Numerous 'non visual' changes for easier production.
The mini playfield was very hard to assemble and to align - we've completely rebuild the mini playfield including an easier way to assemble, or disassemble it.
And many, many more...
Q: Is the design of the bowling alley now complete, or is more testing and development needed to make it reliable?
Yes, it is complete now. We've made a lot of changes to the main toy of our game: the bowling alley. We've fixed the issue with the ball kick back which sometimes didn't make it to get the ball back in the turning ball release. We've also redesigned the 'end of stroke' switches of the ball release to make it more reliable. The playfield for the bowling alley will also be a printed and coated playfield instead of the wood with sticker playfield we use in the prototypes.
Q: Is the design frozen? Are parts being ordered?
99% of the design is frozen. There are still some minor things we're testing right now on the preproduction prototype, but this will not influence the bill of material, so yes: parts are ordered.
Q: When will all pre-order "true serial numbers" be released by?
Since we decided to give out the numbers based on the time you ordered we had to wait until we had a final list of pre-orders and the accompanying true serial numbers. We will dedicate another NSN specially for this - soon!
Q: What % complete (with 100% meaning all bugs addressed and anticipated refinements made) can the code expected to be at the time of delivery?
The game will be fully playable on delivery, meaning that all the rules indicated by playfield inserts will be there to play. The main goal of the game is to get to the Wizard Mode "The Dude Abides" and this will be included on delivery. We might be fixing bugs in future versions, or improve various things down the road, but our goal is to ship the game with complete code including all features of the game. To give a percentage it will probably be 85% of what it will be in the end.
Q: Do you plan on having location testing for a while?
Yes. Some of the machines will go on several locations for testing.
Q: Is there any warranty on the machine? What are the limitations on it?
Yes, the game will have warranty. We are working on the details, but it will be similar to what you see from other manufacturers.
Q: Is there any network/wifi capabilities or similar tech to BOP2.0 with online scores, etc.?
Yes! We're excited about the posibilities and so far the Live functionality has been a very positive experience for BoP2.0 users and ourselves. We'll be developing it further in the future, one of the new features will allow you to adjust the most common settings of the machine through the live page. For instance, you can easily switch to Tournament Mode, change the number of balls, or switch Parental Mode...
Q: Will there be easter eggs like an In-n-Out Burger reference?
There will be Easter eggs ... We don't know about IAOB, we have to see if we get permission for that.
Q: Will there be a Tournament Mode?
Yes.
Q: Family mode - care to elaborate. Are you using the TV edits (that are funny), bleeping it out, etc. Available on delivery or going to come later?
We will not be using the TV-Edits in Parental, or Family mode. We know they are hilarious (This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps), but they are not part of the license and we will just be muting all the cuss words and remove anything related to drugs, sexuality, smoking as much as possible. All machines will be defaulted with Family Mode ON, but it's an easy setting in the menu to switch it to Normal .
Q: Will spare parts be made available for sale? I could see things like the rug and the bowling pins taking a beating?
We will make extra spare parts for TBL specific parts. So yes, parts for the rug toy, the bowling pins etc. will be available as spare parts in case they break.
Q: The bowling mech seems like a complicated part of the game. If it breaks, will the game be programmed to bypass that feature during the repair period?
Yes, there will be a setting to bypass the bowling alley mech. Although we are pretty sure with all the adjustments we made it will be a pretty sturdy mech.
Q: Any chance we could see a rulesheet/ mode diagram?
Sure, here is a high level rules logic diagram we made early on as a conversation piece for internal use. It doesn't include the possibilities of stacking, or combining modes and multiballs, nor does it detail the differences of all the rug modes, car modes, character modes and multiballs.
Q: Whatever happened to the custom pinballs that Geert designed?
Geert made those pinballs to test them for the bowling alley. Unfortunately they didn't last for a long time, so we decided to use a standard pinball instead.
Q: Will it be possible to leave a 7/10 split after the first bowl AND then to get a spare from that split?
This is a difficult question. We're not sure yet if we're going to implement these kind of splits, because with the mechanics of the bowling alley it's - of course - impossible to really score a spare from a 7/10 split. The only way we can do that is to emulate it, but we're not sure this will be implemented. We will - however - implement other mini games in the bowling alley. So when you go bowling, there will be different challenges to hit the pins. One challenge for instance will be a single pin, that has to be hit with just one ball. Or another challenge where you have to hit a 'moving' pin. We think challenges like that will make the bowling alley more fun and diverse.
Q: What is more important to DP: Getting a game made on schedule or making sure the game is reliable and with complete code?
The most important thing for DP is to ship a game which is reliable hardware wise. We will not ship games if we are not confident they will last for a long time without major hardware issues. Of course this is really hard to guarantee, because - although we tested the games a lot - it's always possible to have some unforeseen bug, or ball hang-up we've never experienced before. Our goal is also to ship a game with complete code and all features working in the game. There will be software updates after we ship, but that will mostly be bug fixes, or adding extra depth and polish to the game (i.e. stackable modes, multiballs).
Q: What is the current schedule for the production of the first game?
We started the production according to planning in April 2015. Unfortunately we encountered delays in delivery time of certain parts. We still were confident that we could ship our first machines in Q2 2015, but we now realize that we won’t make this since we also are waiting for approvals of audio and video clips. Both take more time than expected. We will try to keep the delay at an absolute minimum and we focus on delivering the first machines in Q3 2015.
Q: What is the predicted date which DP will have the last of the pre-order games completed and ready to ship? & Q: When can all pre-orders residing within the 48 continental US states, expect to receive their game by?
We expect all pre-ordered games to be ready and shipped by the end of 2015.
Q: Shipping for North America, what's the plan there? I.e., fill a container, send it over , then shipped out by either Scott or Cointaker?
Yes. As soon as we have ~30 machines ready for the US they will be put in a container and shipped to our local distribution point in the US.
Q: With bop2.0 you shipped to European customers first presumably to try to flesh out problems while can still (resolve?) locally, can we expect that again here?
No, this will not be like BoP 2.0 shipment. We will ship on a first come first serve base. The EU/other countries orders will probably shipped one-by-one when they're ready, as for the US we will wait until we have a container full of games ready and ship then in one go to our local US distribution point.
We would like to thank all of you on Pinside who have supported us throughout some difficult times and for your clear enthusiasm for this game… which we hope and believe will not disappoint you when you see it in your homes, local arcades, shows, bars, friends homes and not to forget bowling alleys around the globe!
Best wishes,
Team Dutch Pinball

VERY well done and glad to see this!!! Thanks to DP for taking the time to address the questions and to everyone that came up with the questions. A great start to a Monday!! =)

Brian

1 week later
#269 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Anyone think we would of seen the day where Phil's meltdown is relatively minor vs everything else that's happened since Jan? Man. And in the same light, not sure DP would of made it through if it happened today as there's even less tolerance for missteps.

I hear ya! I'm happy so far to have chosen TBL versus the rest. But, our game has not shipped yet. There is no better time than the present for Dutch Pinball to have the most open / communication that they have ever had. Not that they haven't... (the last New Shit Newsletter was really good)!

Brian

2 weeks later
#302 4 years ago

Bring on the newsletter!!!!! We need it after the Jpop and Predator news!! This newsgroup needs some more positivity lately!!!!

Brian

#306 4 years ago

Thank you!!!

1 week later
#356 4 years ago

#79 here!!

3 weeks later
#419 4 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

It's time for some pics from the factory don't you think?

Absolutely. Or even some updates on code or voice calls. Any sort of update really!!!

#437 4 years ago

Man, these guys ain't f*ckin' around!!

Brian

3 weeks later
#454 4 years ago

Come on weekend update!!!!

#457 4 years ago

Loving the BoP update!!!

1 month later
#533 4 years ago

Has the apron changed on TBL? In one of the parts pictures on the NSNL, it shows a couple aprons with notches for apron cards. The protos had the cut stars from the bowling alley. Maybe those aprons in the newsletter don't even belong to this.

Brian

3 weeks later
#612 4 years ago

God damnit. This hurts.

#640 4 years ago

The jackpot call out in the video doesn't seem to fit the game at all. I'm really hoping it's a place holder.

Very disappointed to hear about this on Pinside. I wish it was sent via email first.

I'll hold judgment until there are more details (hopefully VERY soon). But, right now, I can say I'm not real impressed.

Ugh. Let's all hop on the roller coaster again.

#675 4 years ago

We need to have a question and answer NSNL like what was done a half a year ago or so. Just answer the buyers questions honestly. Just tell us what we are getting. And some sort of realistic timeframe.

I'm ready for this ride to be done. And with all due respect, I know I don't have it near as bad as the Skit B / Zidware guys. At least yet.

1 month later
#913 4 years ago

I must say I have lost quite a bit of excitement for this too. I'm hoping they release some more information soon and the "can't wait" attitude returns. I love everything DP did with BoP 2.0 (minus the lack of communication there too), so I guess I'll continue to hold my breath. With Hobbit hitting the line very soon, I'm starting to wish I put my money elsewhere (or could just get out of TBL and buy different game).

I've said it before here, I'm tired of the rollercoaster this project has been. I have been taught one hell of a lesson to never pre order again. NEVER.

Come on DP... Throw us "ACHIEVERS" a bone....

Brian

1 month later
#1028 3 years ago

Very disappointed. Hope they prove me wrong today. But, it sure isn't looking good. This is the kind of pattern with DP that will really make me think twice about buying another game from them. Communication through this whole thing has sucked, to put it nicely. I'm still looking forward to my game, but I am more excited to be out of the pre order bull sh!t for good. I guess, lesson learned.

Brian

2 months later
#1256 3 years ago

Woo hoo!! Congratulations. Can't wait for more pictures and reviews.

Brian

1 month later
#1585 3 years ago
Quoted from Rockytop:

This is one of my main questions as well. I've been to several shows that had TBL and the games I played all had issues with flipper stregnth. For those of you who own production models, how is it? If the coils are adjustable it shouldn't be a big deal.

I had heard that there was an issue with flippers getting weak after alot of consecutive plays. That have been with the old boardset though. Has this been a problem with any of the production games?

Thanks

Brian

5 months later
#2508 3 years ago

Sounds like mine is just about ready to go! I can't wait.

Good to hear they are attempting to correct problems before batches ship.

Nice to hear. Unlike my Ghostbusters premium that has a ghosting playfield that Stern knew about 7 months before even building my game!!

Looking forward to my TBL!!

#2509 3 years ago

By the way... Thanks "rubberducks" for the detailed update...

1 month later
#2594 3 years ago

I'm sooooo hoping to get that email this week that the next batch is leaving the Netherlands.... Still holding a little hope to have mine for New Years.

Ok.... I'll settle for any new info now. Code, manufacturing, whatever!!

Brian

3 weeks later
#2659 2 years ago
Quoted from ectobar:

Just replaced my left diverter. Surprise, surprise, still doesn't work.
Someone earlier was asking about the sizing of the replacement vs the original. Here are a couple pictures.
The replacement is on the top in the first image, and bottom on the second

Anyway, unfortunately after replacing, the diverter is still getting stuck in the down position. However, originally I thought it was just getting stuck underneath the ramp. The new design seems to be preventing that, but yet it's still sticking. When manually moving the diverter, it does not move smoothly. I'm thinking at this point it has to be either the coil or the coil sleeve. Anyone want to chime in if that seems like a decent conclusion? Unfortunately I don't have any extra coils, or sleeves around.

I don't have my game yet... But, I doubt it's the coil or sleeve. Have you tried moving (slightly bending) the coil bracket when the diverter is stuck? To see if the plunger releases or moves easier. Sounds like maybe an alignment issue.

Brian

3 weeks later
#2760 2 years ago

Starting late December to today, I have sent one email to Barry, one to support, and this morning one to Jaap. None have been answered.

Brian

#2764 2 years ago

I did not buy from a distributor. I purchased directly from DP. And this road has not been all duckies and bunnies.

Brian

Edit: I do realize there are others here that have been in a much worse situation than this with the Jpoop and Predator orders.

#2767 2 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

For what it is is worth I had Barry on the phone this past weekend for help with some "issues" on my game(not really related to the game not functioning, just some replacement parts I wanted), so he is indeed alive.
I did ask him at the time about the bad boards and he had said it was resolved and the games were getting updated, not sure I got any specific timeframe however, so I apologize. Also the new code should be dropping soon, they were fixing a few bugs and thought it would be released soon.
I completely agree with most in here, they need more public communication especially to people who have orders pending. I have voiced this to them many times and hope the communication gets better, it truly is an awesome game and the potential of it once the code is completed is SO exciting, I hope more get to experience it soon! Until then.......................................

Hey, man. Really appreciate you taking the time to shoot us the update. As you said, really wish they would do this more often.

Brian

#2776 2 years ago

Piss poor communication will certainly make me think twice before purchasing game number two from them. They have had our money long enough. The least they could do is update us or return emails.

Brian

#2871 2 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

I did ask him at the time about the bad boards and he had said it was resolved and the games were getting updated, not sure I got any specific timeframe however, so I apologize. Also the new code should be dropping soon, they were fixing a few bugs and thought it would be released soon.
I completely agree with most in here, they need more public communication especially to people who have orders pending. I have voiced this to them many times and hope the communication gets better, it truly is an awesome game and the potential of it once the code is completed is SO exciting, I hope more get to experience it soon! Until then.......................................

I wish I knew what is really going on. Barry told me mid December that the issue was fixed. You were saying a couple weeks ago Barry told you the issue was fixed. And I finally got an email back from Jaap last night that there has been no resolution and they have no updates or ETA's at this time. Something is f*cked dude... What the hell is going on???

#2874 2 years ago

I have an email frim them stating it was fixed and someone on Pinside spoke with Barry and he said it's fixed and they are updating games (that was two weeks ago). Now, back to no resolution? I don't get it.

Again, they lack of communication (and conflicting communication when it does happen) is where half baked ideas and theories as to why these aren't shipping are born.

Just give us the straight poop, DP. After this rollercoaster, just open, honest discussion would sure be nice.

#2875 2 years ago

And don't get me wrong, I sincerely appreciate them fixing a known problem before sending the game out. Instead of having it dead in people's homes trying to troubleshoot. But, going silent in emails and the information that is provided is vague and conflicting, that just doesn't help things. DP has a pretty understanding group if pre order folks. Look at the shit mess that this project has been (Phil, songs, license.... The list goes on). But, deep down we believe in this project and want to see it succeed. It just gets to a point where frustration takes over a bit.

#2898 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

I appreciate that DP wants to make everything right before they ship any more units.
I've waited 2 years plus so what's another few months to get a nice updated TBL.
Just would like DP to improve the communication for us Achievers.

Couldn't agree more.

#2907 2 years ago

Come on Dutch Pinball....!! How 'bout a Friday NSNL..!!??? Even a BSNL (bull shit! news letter). At this point, anything is welcome.

cef8ef30fed4f7a3221b4333f7ef66b3 (resized).jpg

1 week later
#2921 2 years ago

I think I got an official update last night. Cliff notes..... 1. Not talking is bad (at least in the pinball community). 2. Shits broke (no idea how long it will take to fix). 3. Jaap will be in Texas.

At least they reached out. Ugh.

They need to hire Gutterballs for a PR adviser.

Was really hoping for at least some tid bit to get the crowd excited again. Like a quick clip of new software, or even some updated thoughts if where things are going with gameplay after it's been out for awhile.

It's not like they haven't had time to put something like that together.

Oh well, like I said, at least it was an email. Baby steps.

#2934 2 years ago

I would rather pay extra for my game than start over. All new problems now to troubleshoot. F*ck.

#2958 2 years ago

I also got the ARA email this morning. I forwarded it to Jaap and Barry, which prompted update #2.

We deserve an honest explanation here. More than "more info coming soon". Or a refund, which I'd guess ain't happening anytime soon.

Brian

#2964 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Exactly - that's why it sounds like bullshit.

And didn't DP say that ARA designed the boards under the playfields (I could be wrong in this)?

If that's the case, we are going to start the R and D stage all over again? F*ck that.

God damnit, Dutch Pinball..... Honesty is your friend. These past few months (years) of bold face straight out lies have really clouded up this project.

I'm guessing the waiting list over at Coin Taker got a little shorter today.

DP needs to take control of this situation QUICK (if they even care to anymore).

#2966 2 years ago
Quoted from JustLikeMe:

Could someone please post the ARA email?

I told Jaap that I would not post the email on forums or social media as long as he gives me straight information by the end of the day today. No more bull shit. I will stay true to my word. However, I know others that got the same email I did.

#2971 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

You know the relationship between ARA and Dutch is gone when ARA was willing to go behind dutch's back and contact dutch's customers directly. Don't forget Dutch is ara's customer; not the lembowski owners. That is a serious breach of business protocol and not one many business engage in unless they feel they have no other means of recourse. I would say there is next to no chance of salvaging the Dutch/ARA relationship. While it's shitty what ARA did, how long would have Dutch continued the bad board ruse.

ARA did not reach out to me. I reached out to them. I was not satisfied with DP's "board problem" excuses. It took some leg work to find contacts at ARA.

#2973 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Oh wow. Sorry I missed that. My apologies. That paints Dutch in ever a worse light.

After I located a contact at ARA, I passed that person's info to others that have preordered that were looking for answers. At that time, DP had not been responding to our emails. This is the direct result of that.

I received ARA's response literally hours after DP's update #1.

#2977 2 years ago

Please don't get me wrong. In no way was I hoping for this to turn out this way when I emailed ARA. I was just hoping to find answers somewhere since things had gone silent on the DP side of the fence.

And I will be the first to hopefully stand behind DP if they get a plan of attack put together and are straight forward with the folks that have had their backs both socially and financially for years.

This is a kick ass game. Koen is f*cking awesome with code. The amount of work these guys have put into this machine needs to be enjoyed by the masses.

#2984 2 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

So everyone seems ok that ARA can ask for more money midstream? Seems like that's the consensus after hearing another side. Not sure why that's okay at this point.

Better to send a couple hundred extra than loosing our $8500. That's my thought. Just to get this done. At least I'll have a couple pieces of wood, electronics, and some wire to show for my money (working or not).

#2999 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

If that turns out to be the case, it also means that there is little to no chance of salvaging DP as a whole. Despite what they said about finding a new company to manufacture the games, that option simply isn't feasible for the reasons already discussed.
I wonder how much money ARA has already received from DP, and how much cash DP still has on hand?
And what company is going to agree to a manufacturing contract with DP on a project that is going to be entering into litigation?

The only thing that gives me the slightest ray of hope is that Jaap is scheduled to speak at the Texas show. Why would they even bother if the ship had already sunk. And after reading the ARA email, that relationship has been dead for months.

#3009 2 years ago
Quoted from JustLikeMe:

If you do, any chance you could grab me a spare bowling alley mech?
I'd also appreciate the ARA email via PM is anyone is able to share.

If I don't get clearer answers from DP today by 5:00 cst, I will post the email here if nobody else has already. That was what I told Jaap and Barry this morning.

I will not post it before.

And its really nothing that hasn't already been discussed here. Don't expect to be blown away by any new info.

#3037 2 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

It's hard to keep silent when I see these sorts of things happen. However, as an investor who funds companies, sometimes companies that manufacture hardware, I feel I should point something out.
A fair majority of the time, there are problems with quality from contract manufacturers. In fact, it's a major risk of hardware, which is why so few investors get behind it. As a matter of course, we expect QA issues in our companies as a rule, and have to bake time into both re-engineering as well as potential backup CMs in order to ensure quality production.
When you're on a razor thin budget, this is massively complex. If you're new to the manufacturing world, it's difficult to measure quality in real-time, and you end up being subject to the whims of the CM. Leverage doesn't exist. This makes it easy for CMs to be difficult or deliver sub-standard results, and the buyer can't do much to resolve these issues. There are entire industries around manufacturing being created to help eliminate some of this friction for small run production, but it's in the early stages.
It really doesn't matter if both sides of this problem think they are right; Maybe it is a question of interpretation of the contract, who knows. The bottom line is that the company who we're supporting here, DP, has one path forward and always has; Deliver you a quality product. Anything less than that would be a disaster. Therefore, of course, DP is going to to everything they can to do that, including move on to another manufacturer.
When Kickstarter emerged, at first, venture capitalists were thinking that a successful campaign may be an indicator of future market success. Very quickly that myth was dispelled, because few successful campaigns ship product. What's worse, those campaigns were often plagued with spotty communication, and as a result, the venture backed startups only use Kickstarter as a marketing machine now. Communities are super hard to manage when you're learning in real-time.
My advice here is to be as forgiving as you can to DP. You guys may slam me for coming to their defense, but as someone who pre-ordered as well, I'm inclined to wait as long as it takes to get a quality product.

Problem is... If this was told to us in October (when the relationship dessolved between DP and ARA), most of us would accept it and wait. We've done just that countless times through this pre order.

That is not what happened. We were told there was a board issue instead. And that games were shipping very soon. Judging by the ARA email and DP update #2 today, this was NEVER the case.

Knowing full well what the situation was, Barry told me in December that the games could possibly ship before Christmas. And the board issues were just about resolved.

#3042 2 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

You say what you believe. You've got nothing to gain by setting too high expectations, except massive disappointment. "Under promise and over-deliver." You're right though, if they had known there were problems, transparency generally works to your favor here.
Moving on is hard, but ultimately, that's what DP has to do at this point.

I didn't set any expectations, they did. Knowing full well there wasn't a chance in hell the games were shipping. After I was told that, all communication stopped. So, I went elsewhere for information. This is no joke, it's $8500. I'm not just going to sit back and see what happens.

Obviously, their initial email today was more BS. Not sure how you are saying I set any expectations...

#3045 2 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

I'm not. I'm saying DP did.

I apologize. I misunderstood your post.

#3089 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I'm glad to hear that Levi because I'm part Dutch myself. Every body should have some Dutch in them. Who's first?

Seems us pre order people all got a little Dutch in us too. Didn't even get a kiss first!!

#3185 2 years ago

I wrote a bunch of emails yesterday and DP did respond to each of them (which was nice and I appreciate that). The is the summary of the situation I am in:

1. No refunds will be issued at this point (duh).

2. They are considering legal action against ARA to get our money back and damages for the DP name.

3. During this time, they will talk to other "possible" manufacturers.

4. There is no possibility of paying ARA extra for the completed games. They feel that will "weaken (their) position" against ARA.

I guess all we can do now is wait. Hopefully they will have some more answers in Texas.

Brian

#3194 2 years ago

I would much rather they get their paid in full customers (that can't get refunds) a game as their first priority. Rather protecting their good name. Deal with that after some of these folks are made whole.

But, I do not know all of the details and I am sure there is way more to the story than is just written in some emails back and fourth.

#3206 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

This is exactly the correct course and the logical one. Why Dutch just flat out refuses this option is what makes me question how truthfull Dutch is being about this extra $1,000. One email to ARA asking if they are seeking additional money or the original money owed from the original contract would clear everything up very quickly.

I sent another email to my contact at ARA yesterday asking for some clarification. I will update if I hear anything back. It did take a little over a week to hear back last time I emailed.

I really hope DP can just settle things with ARA for the completed games and find a new manufacturer after. It's the right thing to do.

Brian

#3225 2 years ago
Quoted from someoneelse:

Good god, all this "come clean" BS over and over on Pinside.
If you buy a TBL you are a CUSTOMER, I know you feel the same entitlement as if you were a shareholder as you have deposited/prepaid the machine, but you are just a customer. You paid money and want a product. If you are unhappy with the delivery date being pushed out, cancel your order and reclaim your money.
Producing things like these is a rollercoaster ride. If they would give you a daily, weekly or whatever "forced" update on what problems they are dealing with on a daily basis the Pinside sissy crowd would go hysterical on each and every message. Complete idiots would probably even contact members of the supply chain, completely disrupting the relationship of the involved business partners.
All this is just none of your business as a customer. It will do more harm than help, cause unnecessary commotion and trigger hasted activism and external pressure, things that don't help in these delicate discussions at all.
I'm not saying DP is doing a good job in communicating, but at the end of the day they are obliged to deliver a product, not information about company internal processes and data.

It appears you haven't read anything that has been documented in this thread directly from DP and ARA. It's also very clear that you don't have a horse in this race. Thanks for your opinion though.

#3227 2 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Is DP just Out of Money? I understand now that the deposits are held by the distributors.

That's correct. Except for those of us that paid in full directly to DP (I know, not smart).

#3249 2 years ago
Quoted from Tsskinne:

To be fair, I'm not an owner, but my local arcade does have a TBL, and their game has definitely had a board issue, as has another owner that I know. So I think there may be some truth to that. They had their game less than a month with constant issues that have been traced back to the board.

There is no truth about the board issues. I have an email directly from Jaap stating they used that excuse to buy time. And he apologized for doing that.

#3251 2 years ago
Quoted from Tsskinne:

You have words, we have a game less than two miles from my house with board issues that has not been playable for nearly 3 months now, that is all I'm saying. I think the whole situation is screwy and yeah DP probably screwed up, but I'm just saying some games have been experiencing issues.

I don't doubt you that there are issues with a machine that you can physically see. But, what I am saying is, I am told, by Dutch Pinball, that this was never the reason production or shipping was delayed. It's quite possible that the games that are done and boxed have similar problems to what you have come across.

2 weeks later
#3626 2 years ago

I'm also out. I was an early achiever. I got an offer that I couldn't refuse. I still completely believe in this project and will hop back in immediately (if any units are available) once production starts back up.

Good luck guys and gals. I really am hoping good info breaks at TPF or hopefully before!!

Cheers!

Brian

2 weeks later
#3846 2 years ago

I'm thinking it's Pulp Fiction.

#3859 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:

He got so fed up by those tons of emails DP spits out that he just had to complain bout it.

HA!!!

#4102 2 years ago

So, if they didn't get caught in the "board issue" lie on the day they released the two newsletters..... How did it make any sense for them to write that a solution would be worked out in a couple weeks (in update #1)? What the hell did they think was going to happen? It's not like "a couple weeks" was going to buy them alot of time.

And after seeing their timeline in the newsletter yesterday of the events that lead to the stoppage.... Update #1 makes even less sense.

Maybe DP is in the up and up now and trying to get through this. But, man, it's tough for me to trust a word they say. Which is really too bad, because they seem like genuinely good people that had a passion to make something "cool"...

#4111 2 years ago

Did Cointaker even have a Lebowski with at TPF?

#4326 2 years ago

So, one part I'm missing by all the arguing....

In the 2nd letter from ARA that Greg posted, it says that the last container that was sent to the US has also not yet been paid for by Dutch Pinball. That is what triggered the stoppage of shipping more games and the production of additional units. Unless I read this incorrectly.

Again, assuming APA is stating facts, hostage game owners are going to have to pong up much more than $1100 USD to get things rolling again.

I am really hoping Jonathan gets more info and a resolution can be found. This game needs to become more than just a collector show piece. It was manufactured and designed far to good for that. This thing needs to be played and enjoyed by pinheads all over.

Time for the truth folks, so the pinball community can step in where shitty management (one place or the other) left off.

#4327 2 years ago

All faults aside (and I know this is only a bunch of words), but I just really hope this thing gets fixed. There are so many people (besides Jaap and Barry) that put a ton of effort into making this thing work. People that are God damn proud of this project and the work they did. And, just some plain old good people. People that take it to heart that pinheads, like themselves, are concerned about the loss of hard earned money. Like I said... GOOD F'ING PEOPLE.

Time for the bull shit! on either side to stop. If in fact the project is dead, stick a fork in it and put it to rest. Otherwise, rally the troops, DP. Keep it simple, whatever (if there's litigation). Just rally the troops. Grabbing at $12.5k is bullsh!T. And you know it.

1 month later
#4647 2 years ago

Great to see another update. But, I must say... If this was all ARA's fault and René was the bad guy that got fired.... I would have thought atleast the hostage games would be getting shipped now. Seems there are still more pieces to this puzzle. Man, I hope they get this figured out.

#4651 2 years ago
Quoted from Mike_M:

Hopefully we're not reading this wrong and the reason he got fired is because he kept on spending ARA assets/shipping without payment from DP.

Certainly a possibility as I don't know what else they are producing at the moment. But, if that was the case and DP was trying to help them get the line started again, you would think they would ship the completed games out of good faith.

Again, all we have is pure speculation. And the two parties that have communicated (DP and ARA), have proven themselves to not always be on the up and up.

So, the waiting and guessing game continues.

#4684 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

Ho. Lee. Fuk.

2 weeks later
#4773 2 years ago

New update from DP today....

In this week’s update of Dutch Pinball and the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball we want to share a condition from NiVoGe. When they invest in this project and let ARA start up the production process they demand 51% of the shares of Dutch Pinball. We are discussing what are the pro’s and con’s with our consultant and as soon as we know if this is acceptable or not, we will let you know.

We will send out another update next week

#4779 2 years ago

Don't hear much about the price increase and lawsuits anymore... Isn't that why the hostage games didn't ship...?

2 weeks later
#5096 2 years ago
Quoted from kapper:

I don't believe anything from the DP camp at this point.
I finally did some homework and spoke with ARA this week.
DP is broke. They want us to believe this is a sinister plan conspired by ARA but after speaking with them I simply don't believe it.
I was dumb and purchased a "hostage game" - per ARA there is nowhere close to 50 games being held - more like 10. I offered to pay a significant premium to get my game shipped (its in the 70's) and I was told that my game HAS NOT BEEN BUILT.
Take it for whatever its worth - if someone starts a lawsuit against DP I will be glad to join, otherwise I'm done worrying about this.
Best of luck to all - another lesson learned.

For what it's worth... When I was talking to Renee at ARA back in the day, he told me that my game was done. My game number was 76. With that said, I don't believe any of these stories anymore. And I keep getting further and further from giving a sh!t.... as much as I really wanted this game..

Brian

#5123 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Has anyone opened a dispute with Paypal? I thought maybe I couldn't due to too much time passing...but I just went through the process and set up a dispute for all 4 of my payments. Let's see where this goes....

I tried when "Phil - Gate" happened. I was able to submit the request, but all were denied due to the length of time between deposit and dispute request. I even went the step higher and they sent me out this packet to fill out. That was declined too. Wish you the best of luck though, man. Maybe now that there is a trend of requests for this business there will be a different outcome..

Brian

#5198 2 years ago
Quoted from Humph:

My rats all have penises.

Man, I love "The Big Lebowski Pre Order Club (Members Only)."

#5417 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

DP is not actively following this forum so if you guys are thinking of assembling a list of questions (wise idea by the way) an early achiever must gather them and forward them to DP.

DP may not be actively following this thread or Pinside. But, I would guess they have a pretty damn good pulse on the Pinside happenings courtesy of Mr. Rensh. He apparently is the acting unofficial spokesman for DP and doesn't miss a second of conversation here. DP knows what's happening on Pinside weather they read it here or not. And if it's not coming from Rensh, it's coming from someone else or a fake account.

Brian

2 weeks later
#5822 2 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

The license is for only 300. A machine was destroyed in transit and they have to fix it instead of replace it, because replacing it would mean 301. Unless the get a new license 300 is the most we will ever see.

If everything works out, they will make more than 300. Apparently, there is no limit. I was told this directly from Barry.

10 months later
11
#7145 1 year ago

Just sad to read this..

Screenshot_20180518-110654 (resized).png

1 month later
#7776 1 year ago

Wow... Didn't see this one coming... Now a Kickstarter too? Maybe TBL will come with a rug and a Stern coffee table book..? In all seriousness... I hope it works and people that are due games are finally made whole. And when it's in stock somewhere I can get in line again...

Screenshot_20180622-054508_Gmail (resized).jpg

3 weeks later
#8080 1 year ago

Did the Seattle Seven get pulled off Facebook? I was going to look and see how the Go Fund me effort was progressing and the Facebook page seems to be gone along with any mention of it in FB threads.. Odd.

8 months later
#8662 8 months ago

I'm just hoping the code progresses now. This is really cool to hear!!

Brian

3 months later
#9009 5 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

They’ve been getting screwed for 5 years. If their numbered games are going to be sold off to other people, that’s an extra spiked strap-on for their ass.

It would be damn difficult watching someone else post a unboxing video of "your" hostage game on Pinside. That you've been waiting years for. But, I guess if that's the only way to get things moving again...

16
#9244 5 months ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

This is really one of the greatest pins ever made, hidden away in some rich guys basement doesn’t give the pinball fanatics the opportunity to enjoy it.

What a God damn stupid thing to say. For so many reasons.

I am FAR from rich. And love to share my games and beer with my friends and other pin folks.

Brian

#9329 5 months ago
Quoted from NPO:

Always entertaining to watch two guys with nearly 70 games between the two of them - total worth of both collections combined at around $350K (averaging $5K per game which some surely aren't and some certainly are over) - mention that they're either not rich or that "most" people can't afford $12.5K for a single pinball machine.
Really puts things in perspective. I don't know whether to laugh or cry softly.

This is pointless to argue. And shouldn't be dealt with here. Much more important things at hand. @drfightner I appoligize for my initial reaction. I should have just let it go.

@DPO, you have no clue how I got my games, what price they were, and how hard I worked to get some of them with second and third jobs.

If you'd like to discuss further, either of you, please feel free to PM me.

Brian

#9336 5 months ago
Quoted from seenev:

Second and third jobs to buy pinball machines? Maybe you have a problem...

Quoted from seenev:

Second and third jobs to buy pinball machines? Maybe you have a problem...

Nope not just to buy pinballs... But, that is some of the perks. And the jobs I really enjoy. And still have plenty of time for my friends and family.

Brian

#9356 5 months ago
Quoted from NPO:

PM invitation accepted.

Cheers. Thanks for taking the time. Stand up PM for sure.

Brian

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