The Big Lebowski
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One question about the music... the track list basically contains the full versions of all the tracks, is that right?? Would be really great if there was an easy way to switch the music... yes, the soundtrack is cool, but to have a feature where you could easily switch the music to other tracks you upload through a USB stick would be awesome!
Quoted from geo:Did everyone get it?
I got it...
It might be useful to compile a list of questions that we'd like to get answers to... we already have in this thread since this last NSN:
1) How many layers of clear with the playfield get?
2) Is everything now fully approved, e.g. all intended original actors call-outs and music?
3) Any updates on the code?
Any more questions? Let's make a list, someone could submit it to Barry (I'm happy to volunteer to do this) and we might get the answers in the next NSN... if there are enough questions it might make the next NSN come sooner since they'll feel there's more to report on... 
So, questions so far:
1) How many layers of clear with the playfield get?
2) Is everything now fully approved, e.g. all intended original actors call-outs and music?
3) Any updates on the code?
4) What is the current schedule for the production of the first game?
5) what is the predicted date which DP will have the last of the pre-order games completed and ready to ship?
6) What breakdowns have the prototype games experienced at shows and have they been addressed?
7) Is the design of the bowling alley now complete, or is more testing and development needed to make it reliable?
8) What is more important to DP: Getting a game made on schedule or making sure the game is reliable and with complete code? (one that came to my mind).
9) Will there be a flyer produced of the final approved game with a feature-gram?
I omitted the question re why the game was photo'd on a rug, but not THE rug, because I thought it might distract them from more important stuff... I'm sure we're all going to get the correct rug, so wondering why there was a photo of a game on the wrong rug doesn't seem important to me... sorry sd_tom, can you forgive me? 
funny how 8 ) comes out
!!
Quoted from genex:Here's phone pix of the front and back of the two flyers I have
Cool! I have the one on the left, but not the one on the right... I also have the teaser flyer with the rug hiding the game...
Quoted from JimB:If they answered either way would hurt sales/reputation so why would they even address that?
To be honest, that's the most important question I'd like to know the answer to... I'd prefer the answer to be getting the game right is more important... My concern is that DP might want to prove to the pinball world that they will meet their deadline... and I'd personally want them to not compromise on quality to achieve that... I think we'd all agree that we'd prefer to wait for a top quality game an extra month or so than get a game with bugs (mechanical or software) on time... I'd like DP to at least know that... to try and make them see that corner-cutting isn't what anyone wants to get the game out of the door... Hey, they might be able to meet the deadline AND have the game fully polished, but the priority should be the polishing rather than the timing IMO... Asking this question could shine light on the issue and help them see what's really important if they were heading down the 'we need to meet the deadline' road...
Quoted from sd_tom:So even if they had to rework the rug to not say "big Lebowski" I would be totally fine.. Might even prefer it just being the red center / their original iconography in the perimeter.
I didn't even know the rug said Big Lebowski on it... I'd also prefer it if it didn't TBH...
Just heard from Barry, he's eager to answer all questions and is wants to do a kind of FAQs response, so if there are any more specific questions, get them in
Specific questions so far:
1) How many layers of clear with the playfield get?
2) Is everything now fully approved, e.g. all intended original actors call-outs and music?
3) Any updates on the code?
4) What is the current schedule for the production of the first game?
5) what is the predicted date which DP will have the last of the pre-order games completed and ready to ship?
6) What breakdowns have the prototype games experienced at shows and have they been addressed?
7) Is the design of the bowling alley now complete, or is more testing and development needed to make it reliable?
8 ) What is more important to DP: Getting a game made on schedule or making sure the game is reliable and with complete code? (one that came to my mind).
9) Will there be a flyer produced of the final approved game with a feature-gram?
OK, here's a consolidated list for Barry to mull over:
1) How many layers of clear with the playfield get?
2) Is everything now fully approved, e.g. all intended original actors call-outs and music?
3) Any updates on the code?
4) What is the current schedule for the production of the first game?
5) what is the predicted date which DP will have the last of the pre-order games completed and ready to ship?
6) What breakdowns have the prototype games experienced at shows and have they been addressed?
7) Is the design of the bowling alley now complete, or is more testing and development needed to make it reliable?
8 ) What is more important to DP: Getting a game made on schedule or making sure the game is reliable and with complete code?
9) Will there be a flyer produced of the final approved game with a feature-gram?
10) When will all pre-orderer "true serial numbers" be released by?
11) When can all pre-orderers residing within the 48 continental US states, expect to receive their game by?
12) What % complete (with 100% meaning all bugs addressed and anticipated refinements made) can the code expected to be at the time of delivery?
13) Do they plan on having location testing for a while?
14) Is there any warranty on the machine? What are the limitations on it?
15) Is there any network/wifi capabilities or similar tech to BOP2.0 with online scores, etc.?
16) Will there be easter eggs like an In-n-Out Burger reference?
17) Will there be a Tournament Mode?
18) Shipping for north America, what's the plan there? I.e., fill a container, send it over , then shipped out by either Scott or Cointaker?
19) With bop2.0 you shipped to European customers first presumably to try to flesh out problems while can still (resolve?) locally, can we expect that again here?
20) Family mode - care to elaborate. Are you using the TV edits (that are funny), bleeping it out, etc. Available on delivery or going to come later.
21) Will spare parts be made available for sale? I could see things like the rug and the bowling pins taking a beating.
22) The bowling mech seems like a complicated part of the game. If it breaks, will the game be programmed to bypass that feature during the repair period?
23) Any chance we could see a rulesheet/ mode diagram?
24) Whatever happened to the custom pinballs that Geert designed?
25) Will it be possible to get a 7/10 split AND then to get a spare from that split?
Looks like Barry will have is work cut out to go through all this
Quoted from pinballslave:OK, here's a consolidated list for Barry to mull over:
1) How many layers of clear with the playfield get?
2) Is everything now fully approved, e.g. all intended original actors call-outs and music?
3) Any updates on the code?
4) What is the current schedule for the production of the first game?
5) what is the predicted date which DP will have the last of the pre-order games completed and ready to ship?
6) What breakdowns have the prototype games experienced at shows and have they been addressed?
7) Is the design of the bowling alley now complete, or is more testing and development needed to make it reliable?
8 ) What is more important to DP: Getting a game made on schedule or making sure the game is reliable and with complete code?
9) Will there be a flyer produced of the final approved game with a feature-gram?
10) When will all pre-orderer "true serial numbers" be released by?
11) When can all pre-orderers residing within the 48 continental US states, expect to receive their game by?
12) What % complete (with 100% meaning all bugs addressed and anticipated refinements made) can the code expected to be at the time of delivery?
13) Do they plan on having location testing for a while?
14) Is there any warranty on the machine? What are the limitations on it?
15) Is there any network/wifi capabilities or similar tech to BOP2.0 with online scores, etc.?
16) Will there be easter eggs like an In-n-Out Burger reference?
17) Will there be a Tournament Mode?
18) Shipping for north America, what's the plan there? I.e., fill a container, send it over , then shipped out by either Scott or Cointaker?
19) With bop2.0 you shipped to European customers first presumably to try to flesh out problems while can still (resolve?) locally, can we expect that again here?
20) Family mode - care to elaborate. Are you using the TV edits (that are funny), bleeping it out, etc. Available on delivery or going to come later.
21) Will spare parts be made available for sale? I could see things like the rug and the bowling pins taking a beating.
22) The bowling mech seems like a complicated part of the game. If it breaks, will the game be programmed to bypass that feature during the repair period?
23) Any chance we could see a rulesheet/ mode diagram?
24) Whatever happened to the custom pinballs that Geert designed?
25) Will it be possible to leave a 7/10 split after the first bowl AND then to get a spare from that split?
Looks like Barry will have is work cut out to go through all this
Quoted from Razorbak86:I think you hit the quote button instead of the edit button.
Got it, so it WAS me being dumb!!
My recent communication with Barry reveals that he's been busy looking at and getting answers to these questions and they are all answered... not quite sure if he's planning to issue the answers in the next NSN or directly to this thread, but we should see them soon either way
Quoted from sd_tom:I'd hope IF the clip approvals went that sideways where things needed to be replaced, then we could have the ability (not supported of course) to correct it on our own / sub out fake for real on our own machines from our own dvd copies or whatever.
Exactly, there are enough clever people out there to fix the problem if DP aren't allowed to put certain call-outs in the game... they just need to make sure the voice-overs use the same time that the original clips use so the real clips can be aftermarketed in nicely later
Has anyone got to grips with the flow chart to suss out if the strategy/depth of the game will be good?
here's a blown-up view of it for the aged like myself that need glasses... click on it to see the expanded version
It looks like the bowling feature is integrated into the game well... I was worried it might be a kind of pointless 'aside' that might become a bit annoying once the novelty of playing a mini bowling alley had worn off...
One question I wanted to ask, but forgot about, was: Will they be using a ball in the bowling alley that will be scaled to match the size of the pins? Having an oversized pinball ball that ploughs through the pins might be a bit underwhelming after a few shots... From what I can gather they're steering towards the bowling feature being a bit removed from a game of bowling anyway in having a moving pin to hit... which is not a bad thing to have if it's proving too difficult to emulate the real game... but a moving pin would be more of a challenge with a smaller ball
Flow Chart.jpgGot a mail today from Barry answering the after FAQs query I raised above regarding the ball to pin scale... Barry confirmed that the ball used in the bowling alley is the same as a regular ball AND it's in scale with the pins... or should I say: the pins have been scaled against the regular pinball ball... He sent the attached pic to illustrate this (got his permission to post it here)
pin and ball scale comparison.jpgQuoted from sd_tom:Guess can tack that on to another FAQ in the future
FAQs round 2 coming up!!
1) Are you adding metal ramp protectors?
2) Imperial or metric fasteners?
Quoted from burningman:No protectors on the ramps....from testing, there are no ball hits that strike the front of the ramp.
But the ramps get damaged from ricochet shots off the opposite leading edge of the ramp/post/target/whatever is in front of the ramp entry wall, don't they... not necessarily by direct hits to the front of the ramp...
Quoted from Aurich:The Zidware mess presumably.
Ah, the JPop stuff... Was never up to date on what was happening there...
BoP was my first ever pin, and I was kind of against the idea of changing it because I'm kind of attached to the gameplay as it is... both for nostalgic reasons and also I just think it's a cool game... but after seeing that video... I feel strange... my emotions are changing, I'm starting to think I want it... what's happening!!?? That looks f**ing awesome!!!!!
Quoted from Rarehero:You have no choice anyway. Pre-orders have been closed for a while now.
He has the choice to not join the club...
Quoted from sd_tom:clip rules
err... what's that bit mean? Have they reduced the rule set?
I don't get what's wrong with seperating the video-clip from the music... I just don't get it... who's that gonna hurt?? It's painfully pointless red tape BS from what I can tell... Hopefully some clever people can make an aftermarket 'unofficial' fix for all this ridiculous licensing nonsense so we can have the game DP wanted to sell us!
I don't get on Pinside much recently due to a new and improved firewall on my PC which the kind people where I work gave me... so I'm a bit behind on most things TBL... apart from what gets sent through the NSNs... I was just wondering if there is a thread (maybe this one) where there is a running total of people who have actually got their game and unboxed it... Mainly curious to know how many people on Pinside have their machines...
Quoted from Roostking:Has anything been addressed by DP regarding the gen1 games. Seems they are going to be left twisting in the wind regarding support.
I imagine DPs focus at the moment is solely on getting the gen2 games into manufacture... I'm sure when this is ticking along they'll have a bit of breathing space and be able to spend some time supporting gen1 game issues... but it will be quite some time to be at this point... they'll also have to devote some time to negotiating with ARA about how to get the 40 games trapped there of course... my understanding us that ARA aren't easy to negotiate with though... Excellent to hear things are looking up for DP and TBL though!!!! Let's hope this union with the new manufacturer is a good one for TBL and future games!!!
Quoted from whitey:Well my wife’s little dog pees on the rugs
Does she take it bowling? Does it have papers?
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:I was #59 and paid for one of those 40 games 5 years ago. I was given no opportunity to rebuy it. Instead, someone who supposedly only paid a $1,000 refundable deposit was given the opportunity ahead of the remaining 130 EA's who collectively made TBL's existence possible.
It certainly would have been an appropriate way forwards to at least give the EAs first dibs at the 40games... if DP does go bust then at least SOME EAs would have the game and possibly even have a game worth the $21k they ended up paying. The way things have turned out, however, is that people with no firm commitment have the chance to not only break even, but profit from the EAs losses... that doesn't seem right to me! Maybe doing it the way they have was just the simplest and quickest way forwards... if Barry is confident the EAs will eventually get their games at the price they paid, then this could be his thinking... but if DP do go bust, it would certainly suck as an EA to have not had the chance to buy the game.
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Games stored in climate controlled environment- few games already opened and like new
Sounds good... how do you know this by the way?
Quoted from Aurich:Being mad at CT seems misplaced,
Who's mad at CT? Personally I'd have liked DP to have reached out to the EAs through the NSN instead of selling the lot through CT... but like I say, maybe it was the quickest and easiest way to get the lot moved...
Quoted from JimB:Safest way. Did you want to wire DP 12.5K and hope you get one after losing so much already?
I get it... even though I'd have paid 12.5k, I'd have only done so if the game was in my hands as I hand over the cash... which I'm sure is how any other EAs who'd be prepared to pay for the game again would like to handle it... which would have been a logistical nightmare of course... anyway, they're gone now... I wonder if any of the lucky 40 who managed to call CT soon enough were EAs... 
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:No podcast available yet that I'm aware of.
Sorry, my mistake... it might be today...
Quoted from cooked71:in a perfect world the EA's could/should have been offered an option to buy one of the 40 games. They would have then been able to on sell it for a $8000 profit thus recovering their initial investment. Or they could have kept it and still have a game worth $20K - almost the same as their total outlay.
But there were more than 40 fully paid EA's by the sound of it. So at some point most EA's would have lost out.
No matter how you cut up this steaming turd, someone ends up with sh*t.
First paragraph, 100 % totally agree with...
2nd paragraph: I doubt 40 EAs would have coughed up another 12.5 anyway... but I get your point.
3rd paragraph: That's only true if the plan which I believe DP have doesn't work out... DP now see that these games sell like hot-cakes at 12.5k... with this selling price they should be able to rack up enough spare cash to make the games for the EAs relatively quickly and give them the games they've paid for...
Quoted from VividPsychosis:The 40 buyers of these games from ARA will happily take that thank you.
The same 40 buyers should also be giving that thank you to the EAs for funding the games they bought in the first place 
Quoted from cooked71:Who in their right mind will pre-pay DP for a pinball machine now? They'll only sell further games if they're sitting in a box ready to deliver. And who is going to pay the manufacturer to have those games built?
Answer to first question: probably no-one, but I'm sure this is not the intention.
2nd question: Dutch Pinball will pay them...
Check the podcast: http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/july-2019-pinball-industry-recap_147390
At about the 1hr point...
The stuff DP are buying from ARA includes parts for a further 100 games to be built... as mentioned earlier... I see this as a very optimistic situation!
Bearing in mind they sold out in one day, they were clearly underpriced! I fully get that the price is boosted by the prospect that DP will go bust and therefore they'll be very rare, but neverthless it's a good indication to prospective manufacturers that there's a strong market for the product, which should provide some good leverage for DP when they have the next company set up to manufacture with little to no cash for the said setting up... with enough parts already made to build 100 games on top of that, I'd say it's an attractive proposition for a manufacturing outfit to start production with a cotractural agreement to be paid when the cash starts to flow in...
Quoted from flynnibus:They don't say which week they are referring to, but one can assume possibly they mean the week we are in.
If you're referring to which week they need to get the games out of ARA before they close for 3 weeks, they stated 'this week'... so just the rest of today and tomorrow...
Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:Imagine if DP hadn't been so arrogant with everyone's money and actually came to terms with ARA and rolled with the price increases at the time and the machines would have continued down the line.
I don't think DP were being arrogant with people's money... rolling with the price increase would have meant asking all the EAs to cough up another 1000euro, or possibly have a near zero or negative profit for themselves... I think Barry was wanting to honour the price he'd set to the EAs, which is why he stood his ground... also, I'm pretty sure not all the EAs would have gone along with it and there would have been chaos... if all the EAs had known the mess that was about to happen, I'm sure they'd have all paid the extra 1k though... I certainly told DP that I'd prefer to pay an extra 1k for the game, but everyone would have to buy-in, and that probably wasn't going to happen.
Quoted from RTR:Now we learn, they have to sell more than the 40 games for ARA debt. They have to assemble the parts from the 100 more and sell them to satisfy the debt to ARA.
Where did you learn that all the profit from the 100 assembled games is needed to pay off ARA?
Quoted from Mr68:In the podcast it was stated that the 40 machines recently sold only partly covered what was owed to ARA
This I heard, but I didn't hear that they have to sell the entire 100 to pay off ARA... this is the bit that I was wondering where RTR got his info from. If that's accurate then things are much worse than I thought!!
Maybe he forgot to put the words 'some of' between 'sell' and 'them'...
Quoted from seenev:If DP does start using the parts to make new machines, who's going to send them money up front for a game?
No-one.
Quoted from dts:They had licensing for 300 machines, so even if they complete that many, they will remain rare.
I didn't realise the licence was for a limited number of games! Are you sure that's the case? It kind of puts another angle on things!!
Quoted from whitey:need a mil to start up again
Are you sure this is not a pure stab in the dark??
One other small consideration is that there are parts for 200 games... just not as many as there are for 100... and I'm well informed that the extra 100 parts above the 'main 100' parts are the more expensive parts...
Quoted from RTR:zLike most of the information Barry provides, it did not have a lot of information in it. It could be 1 game or all the games.
That's more realistic than the statement that he has to sell the 100 games to pay ARA, which was your initial statement...
Quoted from greenhornet:unless ARA is going to warehouse these parts during the break, it appears barry has a lot more to move in the next 24 hours than just 40 assembled games: 100 additional unassembled games, and the 'more expensive parts' for yet 100 more. if there really are 200 loose cabs, pfs, bowling alleys, rugs, shot glasses, etc sitting at ARA, hes going to need help relocating and somewhere to put these parts.
Listening to the podcast, the parts are already warehoused, and will remain that way for the 3 week break. Barry will only get the games out. The cabs are not part of the 'parts for 100 (or 200) games', all cabs will need making for the next batch of games. Regarding how Barry will pay for the games before CT hand over the cash due to them only doing so after the games are inspected, I don't know the logistics of that... maybe CT have paid upfront, or maybe Barry got the funds elsewhere, or maybe he has an agreement with ARA to pay later when he gets paid by CT... or maybe he's not getting the games out and the podcast was talking bullshit... time will tell...
Quoted from wcbrandes:So where has all the money gone between the cost, 6 k per machine, and 19,444.00 that he has collected to date on the 90 machines delivered ?
My guess is the set up cost of 2 companies to start making the games, lawyers fees due to the ARA mess, flights to China/USA and bottles of Kaluah.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Keep going!
Thanks for the encouragement, you too
Quoted from wcbrandes:What salaries did these guys take?
No idea.
Quoted from wcbrandes:What they didn't say is it legal to put the money right back in to the company till its off the ground or indefinitely duh!
It doesn't surprise me that they didn't say that... I'm not sure what it even means... I guess I'm dumb...
The point is that they spent a LOT of money on one-off costs that were supposed to be spread across 300 games, not 90... your calculation forgets about that... and they did it twice re manufacturing... once re the licence... then there's the unexpected lawyers fees... it looks like you like to imagine that Barry stole the money, but you have to take into account all the costs before you draw that conclusion, surely...
Quoted from benheck:now they need to magically assemble 100 more TBL out of spare parts and once again SELL THEM TWICE just to get into the black? (aka back to zero)
What the Heck! It's very interesting that there seems to be a tendency to twist all information to paint the blackest possible picture... it reminds me of my wife!! First of all it wasn't said that they have to sell all the next 100 games in order to break even... that's pure negative speculation... and 'in the black' is not limited to meaning 'back to zero' as you allude to... it can also mean making a profit... (aka millions of dollars). Sorry for the lack of negativity... but the right time to say it's all gone to shit is when it's all gone to shit, no? There's a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, and some people seem to only want to piss on it... of course you might be right, but saying it like it's fact is wrong.
Quoted from cooked71:any reasonable person should be skeptical of anything that involves Barry and Dutch Pinball.
I'm skeptical, I'm just not making things up or ignoring facts to paint the most negative scenario skeptical 
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Further that he and Barry recently visited factory and Barry opened one box with a game and one with parts. That was the extent of inspection per Jonathan.
You missed out the 'and they were pristine due to them being stored in a climate controlled environment' bit... just filling in the gaps... obviously with this spot check there is little incentive to spend hours maybe days opening the other 39 (or 37) games and the countless boxes of parts... don't you think?
Quoted from cpr9999:if they don’t open how will they remove EA number plaques and bump code?
The plan is to move the games to a DP storage area, then open all the games to test them, when they'll then remove the plaques...
Quoted from VividPsychosis:For the tenth time. Every game will be opened because the EA plaque needs to Be removed and the unreleased new code will be installed.
I thought jeffspinballpalace was referring to the inspection at ARA, which only involved checking 1 machine, not removing the plaques... Wow, they're doing code updates before they ship!! That out-performs Stern!!
Quoted from whitey:no , 40 games that are already built
Jonathan kept mentioning 38 in the podcast.
Quoted from Concretehardt:not the new Chinese design they were working on.
Anything Chinese is no longer in the picture... the Chinese manufacturer is out of the game... or the game is out of the Chinese manufacturer if you prefer...
Quoted from adol75:Private collector
I think it was a typo and he meant to type private investor. It's probably the seller anyway and he doesn't want to reveal himself as a greedy money grabbing @#*%
Great review of the game JustLikeMe Makes me hope even more that all crap sorts itself out and I end up with this in my living room!!
By the way, is your name from the 'I saw a monkey' joke?
Quoted from JustLikeMe:if you ever end up in London and fancy a few games drop me a message!
I lived there for 25 years, but moved to Czech 8 years ago, otherwise I'd be inviting myself round on a regular basis 
Brilliant to see Bowen's video, didn't realise he'd done this game!! Thanks for posting it!! The video clips are better than I imagined!! Looks like an awesome game really!!
Quoted from Time:I hope "Private Collector" takes his profits and pays back some EA's or something.
The 'private collector' is very brazen in placing this ad before the game is even in the same country as him! If I were Coin Taker I'd try and find out who it is and refuse to sell it to him on the basis that it's not going to a good home, and pass it to the next in line... there must be a queue of people wanting to appreciate this game in their homes!!
Quoted from Mr68:s Cointaker supposed to screen all of their customers and make them take a loyalty oath? How do you know the next in line as you suggest wouldn't do the same. How long will new buyers be allowed to keep the game before they can sell it?
It was more wishful thinking than a serious suggestion to be honest...
Quoted from JustLikeMe:I was thinking about this last night, and if I was DP this is how I would have handled the 40 games.
Your idea is great if time wasn't an issue... but I think the reason they were rushed out of the door was heavily time pressure related... it would have been perfect to do it as you suggested though!
Quoted from JustLikeMe:I really don’t think that sort of delay would have had a material impact on the situation.
In normal circumstances, no... but according to the podcast Barry was literally getting the games out on the last day before ARA shut up shop for 3 weeks...
Quoted from pinballslave:It certainly would have been an appropriate way forwards to at least give the EAs first dibs at the 40games... if DP does go bust then at least SOME EAs would have the game and possibly even have a game worth the $21k they ended up paying.
Quoted from JustLikeMe:all I’m saying is that they should have been given first refusal. If no more are made in the future then I imagine they’ll hold their value at around $20k
Great minds think alike
Quoted from benheck:seems DP underestimated costs at a catastrophic level. If they have to sell 140 games twice to even have the money to fulfill original orders that's really, really bad. Like they were off by double bad. That wouldn't even be acceptable in government
I think they underestimated the cost by 1keuro... that's all ARA wanted extra per game to continue production... the reason they are so much debt now is not because of an underestimation of the cost to make the games, but because of the massive additional costs if setting up a 2nd company to manufacture and then the legal fees re the ARA disaster...
Quoted from foxtj24:They were broke before they went to China and Zytech. They were living off of EA preorder money for years.
They were living off EA pre order money from the beginning... that's the idea behind the kick-starter project, no?
Quoted from foxtj24:They did not pay ara because they couldn't.
Do you really know that for a fact?? My belief was that they didn't pay ARA because they wanted an extra 1k/game and they refused in order to not pass that cost back to the EAs... if they couldn't pay ARA, how were they able to spend a fortune setting up the Chinese outfit? Are you talking from facts or assuming?
Quoted from Concretehardt:1000 Euro per game and 51% stake in DP.
My recollection of events was that ARA asked for 1000euro more for each game, DP refused to pay, and after that ARA proposed a way forwards by a hostile takeover, which they also refused... I don't think these two were simultaneous things...
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:facts. 1) DP is out of business (assets = 0
Don't the 500k euros worth of parts they are getting from ARA count as assets?
I've done some speculative maths also (yes, the 's' at the end of 'math' was intentional ) and if we assume the parts for the next 100 games are 90% there (financially speaking, not number or weight!) and assuming the total cost to make each game (parts wise) is 6000euro, 10% of which is left to pay) then to make the next 100 games will cost 60k euro, they sell for 10000euro each = 940k euro profit. Let's say the next 100 games worth of parts are for 50% of the cost means that the next 100 games will cost 300k to make and they also sell for 10k each means another 700k profit. Total profit with zero parts left is 1.64million. This should be enough to pay the rest of the ARA debt plus the new manufacturing set up (which will be lower than usual due to massive inventory of parts already made) and have plenty of cash left for making the parts for the next batch of games... roughly speaking... fire away!
Quoted from Roostking:Depends on the parts missing. Couple of screws, easy. Entire bowling mechs, not so much.
Of course... the speculation that the first 100 parts covers 90% of a machine covers that.
Come on guys, there must be a better counter-argument than that! I've painted a positive picture for the future of DP there... where are you?? Don't disappoint me with your counter attack! 
Quoted from Roostking:Hell, they could have 99% of the parts, but if 1% is the bowling alley that is missing, they might as well be at 1% of the parts needed.
That's why I was careful to specify value and not number...
Quoted from pinballslave:if we assume the parts for the next 100 games are 90% there (financially speaking, not number or weight!)
Quoted from benheck:100 parts worth of games but no cabinets. Say 150-200k for that. Where does that money come from? Who builds the cabinets? Someplace in Europe? Gonna be a fortune to build. Outside the EU? Gonna be a fortune to ship and import.
Say by some miracle they get the cabs. Who builds the pins? Barry & Friends in a garage? They'd make 1 a week tops and have to take zero salary for 2 years - so basically be in a debtor's labor prison of their own making. Doubt that's even legal in the EU.
That's more like it, I knew you wouldn't let me down Mr Heck
With a calculated potential profit of €1.6million (less if the cabs are closer to what you calculate, although I really don't think 200 cabs would cost $1k each) they could persuade a company to work for promised money when the cash flows in... or use whoever helped them out of the ARA debt... I can't answer that... all I'm doing is demonstrating that there does seem to be a way out... because of the parts, which apparently don't count as assets according to another knowledgeable gentleman...
Quoted from foxtj24:Rumor is they are the next to sue DP.
Never believe rumours, especially ones you start yourself 
Quoted from RTR:If they assembled 1 game a week during the years they sucked salary out of the company while they were doing nothing, this plan might have worked.
How do you know they did that? I heard that all staff had been laid off and Barry and Jaap were not taking any salary while things were in limbo...
Quoted from foxtj24:They lied and told us they had to take a salary due to Dutch law.
I did not know that. (Back on track with the movie quotes ).
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:chrome trim and a rug in the original $8,500 cost as a sales incentive
That rug was the thing that pushed me to buy in, believe it or not... and now they're sending them to the non EA buyers?? That's not right... surely... they should be keeping the rugs to send with the EA games when they get made... if I get nothing out of this, at least I want my rug!!!
Quoted from foxtj24:EA games will never be made. Agreed they should send us all our rug and EA plate with our number on it as a last big Fuck you to us EA's
Agreed the I should have used the word 'if' in my statement... I admit that was being a bit provocative... I still want that damn rug though!! And if games don't get made from those parts I also want a load of other shit from them too... playfield, bowling mech, etc... at least as a momento, and of course my plaque to screw onto the playfield and hang on my wall!! At least I can imagine playing the game!! Will probably get a better score than on the real thing!!
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:There's game #59 that I fully paid for and was supposed to receive 3 years ago!
yay
I went back to zoom in on the truck pic... 
Quoted from Nikonokin:Happy to stop by and kick you in the cunt since you so clearly want to antagonize it.
And don't forget to piss on his rug while you're there!
Anyone who feels the need to gloat over other peoples loss, especially when those other people are fellow pinball enthusiasts, is clearly missing something in life... I pity him...
Quoted from Coindork:Hell, I would chip in $500 if he pulled it and offered to an EA.
Count me in for $100... I've lost enough already on this game...
Quoted from Pinhead1982:@wolfemaaan you need to show some kind of respect to the 180 people that made this game happen.
He doesn't know the meaning of the word respect.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:If he gets 10 games built it will be pretty amazing.
Why would he stop at 10 if he has parts for 100, even if they are meaningless...?
Quoted from Time:Just found my old post: http://www.dutchpinball.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37
"With DP, you can get a full refund as long as your own machine has not gone into production."
Interesting comment... but I think the actual "condition" that DP stated you can get a refund was before they went into production (I.e. with the first game), not before your specific game was put on the production line...
Quoted from benheck:I still made the first successful boutique pin
New Canasta preceded AMH by 4 years...
Quoted from adol75:There might be a way to design a cheaper mech, from a far distance it looks like an STTNG cannon with a low power coil
My recommendation in the early days when the bowling mech was in the design phase was to do away with it and have the bowling feature in the display using software that undoubtedly already exists, allowing the player to choose angle, speed and spin with the flipper buttons by means of moving pointers on scales requiring well timed flipper presses to get the desired ball motion. It would have been quite easy and in my opinion been more realistic than the tiny 'alley' the mech allows for... and things like getting a spare from a split would have been actually possible...
If it was done well enough you could even select to just use the game as a bowling simulator and play just in bowling mode!
Quoted from Micky:Page 200 of this thread and sadly the EAs still aren't any closer to getting the games they paid for and deserve.
From the perspective of if and when we'll actually get these games it seems much further away than it was 4 years ago!
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:I also take offense with those, like Kaneda, who contend that EA's had an equal opportunity to buy these.
Agreed. The point is that EAs should NOT have had an equal opportunity to buy these games, they should have had an advantage! All water under the bridge now though, sadly...
Quoted from Pinhead1982:1.) get a TBL
2.) to put €€€ back into get DP started back up again so that I may get my TBL#105
I would personally add:
3) To give myself a chance of not losing $8.5k if DP go bust because the game I'd pay $12.5k for could easily be worth my total cost of $21k if they do... in which case I'd break even.
Quoted from flynnibus:I'd wager the majority just didn't want to pursue legal action for fear to it leading to the end game of 'no TBL at all' because of a defunct DP.
That's certainly my thinking... why spend money to sink the ship you're on?
Quoted from Dkjimbo:the ship is already sunk.
I'm not convinced that it the case... obviously I might be wrong, but personally I think my best option is to hang on... even if it has sunk, what is there to recover from a sunk ship?
Quoted from Rensh:a lot of assumptions here but those thinking the 40 games would have to go to the 40 EA who paid for them are in the wrong. They would never have gone to us EA unfortunately
Thanks for the insightful synopsis! Just one small point though, I don't think the idea from any EA was that they got their game without paying any more... I think we all realise a cash injection was needed and the games had to be sold off... I think the gripe with EAs is that they were not given a privilege in being able to be the ones buying those games for an extra $12.5k... and if they did then they'd not lose their place in line for receiving their actual EA game if/when it got made of course. I.e. selling those 40 games to EAs would have brought in the same amount of cash as selling them to anyone who was fast enough to call CT... so why not give the EAs first refusal at least?... that's the gripe of the EAs I believe... maybe the answer is the speed of sale... or maybe the answer is that Barry didn't feel it appropriate to offer the games to EAs asking them to pay an extra $12.5k after they'd already paid 8.5...
Quoted from goingincirclez:To that add his indefensibly stupid radio silence broken only conjecture, hopes, diversions, and other things well short of tacit ownership, apology, or planning, and you can see his credibility is basically almost worthless.
I agree that better communication would have helped, but I also imagine that Barry likes to give good news and can't help himself from not wanting to disclose bad news... and since there's been quite a lot of the latter recently, I'm guessing that's why he's been silent... not that I fully condone this... but I can at least relate to it.
Quoted from wcbrandes:This is why the EAs will receive nothing from what they rightfully should have owned.
Is there no possibility that DP will achieve what they plan and get back in the black and start making the EA games from the profit they make on the games when they get back into production?
I've got a feeling you meant 'yes' there... thanks for clarifying though, I feel much more informed now.
Quoted from Richthofen:I love that they called the proceeds from selling EA games to non-EA’ers an “investment”. Bullshit.
I've read the NSNL 3 times trying to find where he said that, but I just can't see it... maybe I'm losing it... anyway, good you pointed it out... well spotted! You beat me with your observational skills. Bullshit is the appropriate word for sure.
Quoted from wolfemaaan:just curious. Why are you against me asking and getting an actually number left instead of guessing like everyone else is?
Your curiosity will not be satisfied by repeatedy asking the question on Pinside. The most accurate answer taking all info into account has been stated.
Quoted from wolfemaaan:Sounds like this thread should be shut down then if there is a private EA thread which hopefully they can bound together whoever is still owed and get a game plan
But where would all the wild speculators be able to vent their feelings on the topic?
Quoted from Mbecker:The instructions would have to be damn good with full color pics.. talking something like a DILE manual quality here.
Barry could build one himself and take pics at every step, making sure any additional parts not already there are sourced and included... then issue an e-manual. the snag is the wiring harness and the fact that people will make mistakes and blow boards... interesting cost saving idea, but not practical I fear...
Quoted from Dkjimbo:Anyone heard Barry’s interview yet!? He’s personally building games and needs to sell 500 @ $12.5k before starting to make the EA’s whole!?
This lunacy just gets better all the time.
What you're forgetting is that other people can also listen to the podcast and hear that what you're saying it total bollocks...
Quoted from davijc02:I didn’t get the sense from the interview that Barry really gives a shit about any of you and the thousands of dollars you have lost. Him “attempting” to resurrect this company is all about him and if people are willing to give him more money he will piss it all away again and those people will have nothing to show for it.
My impression was that pretty much the only reason he's persevering with this nightmare is because he does want to make the EAs whole... when he was speaking about this it felt like it was a very genuine statement... I think it's clear that the easiest route for him would be to pull out and ditch the whole project, but because he does care about the EAs, his staying in. Obviously he made some very bad decisions, but each time there was no malice behind them... lying about the boards was to try and prevent panic... and he obviously regrets that, as he clearly said in the interview...
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:As a result they may have gotten 20 cents on the dollar. Instead they do nothing and DP is still in business, so they will get nothing!
Unless DP do survive and they get a game that is... which is 5x better than 20cents on the dollar... no?
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Build games for others and then EA games will be built.
Sadly that's the only way to do it at the moment due to cash flow problems...
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:yet he always puts them at the end of the line to receive a game. Always.
Apart from the first 55... they were at the front of the line, no?
Quoted from kvan99:and now the guy who ripped off the community is once again benefitting.
My understanding is that the profit from the sales of the initial games made will be used to build games that will be given to EAs... there will therefore be no profit until EAs are paid off... at which point the game will have probably saturated the market at the price they'll be asking... so how is Barry benefiting here? You mean by giving himself peace of mind that all the EAs are paid off? I hope he gets that benefit!
Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:does this also mean that an EA's can simply just get their money back since the equity is there?
It would make perfect sense for DP to offer a full refund to an EA when his game is ready to ship... of course the EA would be a bit crazy to accept the refund instead of a game which is undoubtedly worth more than the refund... I'm sure DP would love EAs to opt for a refund at that stage because they can then sell that game for more than the refund they'd give... so for their own business benefit they should be offering refunds at least when they have the funds to provide them...
Quoted from kvan99:Scenario #2, he would approaches me and says I have a way to get the 40 games released and into the hands of 40 of the EAs....but they have to fork over $4k each....I would say ok, let's call the the people on the list and ask who wants in.....
Scenario #3, he approaches me and says I think I have a way to partially refund the 150 EAs, by auctioning off the 40 games and distribute the money amongst the EAs.....
In no scenario Barry should get money again, he's had multiple opportunities to do what's right but he's blown every one of them. After all, it's only a damn toy, is it worth your reputation....or anyone's reputation?
These scenarios result in DP not raising enough funds to pay off their debt to ARA and therefore going bankrupt which would kill all hope of EAs getting their games. The first scenario you would reject is the best hope of survival and for the EAs getting what they paid for...
Quoted from CNKay:I saw a bunch of DP shipping boxes, your good on boxes for now.
I'm sure Barry appreciates your confirmation that he's good for boxes
Quoted from adol75:This was not an investment, it was a pre order...
Or a pre-order investment...
Quoted from Nilroc:Original EA's get screwed again! What else is new.
It was pretty clear that he needs to sell games in order to get production going, as he did with the 40 games trapped at ARA... would you feel less screwed if he sold those to non EAs like he did those 40 games? He's simply giving EAs first pass at those games... if you don't buy one, nothing changes, you just wait for your EA game as you would if he sold those games to someone else...
Quoted from flynnibus:The whole “refund on your ea game” part is completely confusing
That's the easy part... if you buy one of the 'go fund me' games, then when your actual EA game is made (less the plaque of course) then you have a choice: take the game or get your original money back...
Quoted from meSz:you have the choice of still buying it at the original price
I would add 'already paid' to avoid confusion
Quoted from Concretehardt:I have a bad feeling that Barry is going to try and pump out 30 or 40 games (whatever he has the parts for) get paid for them and then.. game over
Maybe you've been spending too much time on Pinside
Quoted from meSz:If that were the case, I would imagine, it would've been easier for him to just walk away from it all together.
I think what Concretehardt is saying is that doing what he fears Barry might be doing will give him more $$$ than packing up earlier...
Quoted from Nilroc:The original EA's that wait get a lesser TBL. No plaque or serial number or any extras they put on the $12,500 US games. So the original EA's get screwed again.
Comprende.
They only don't get a plaque if they opt to buy one of the 'made to raise money' games because the plaque will be attached to that game... you can't expect to get 2 games with 2 if the same serial number plaque can you??? If you DON'T opt to buy a 2nd game, you obviously get your plaque on your EA game when it's made... EAs who do decide to fork out a load more dosh for a 2nd game get a bit extra... afterall, they're paying another $4k over what their original EA game cost... so a little extra for that extra 4k is good, no? Non EA buyers if that made to sell game don't get that extra but still pay $12.5k... explain how that is screwing EAs? It's giving them first shot at the new games... something they were criticised for NOT doing when they sold the 40 trapped at ARA games...
Quoted from Nilroc:If you wait you do not get a TBL like the $12500 US . No special extras unless you order the $12,500
That's because your original EA game, which comes with free chrome trim and free rug, cost $4k less than the 12.5k game, no? You give something extra, and some people see it as taking something away... come on man, surely you can't see it as losing something... EAs who buy in again are simply being rewarded over other people...
Quoted from Hjbondar:Buy at the higher price after 5 years!!
I don't think it's compulsory to buy at the higher price... it's an option... I guess you'd be happier if they sold them like they did the first 40...? In which case, just ignore the NSN... pretend they're going to non EAs...
Quoted from luvthatapex2:He should offer new TBLs for 12,500 to non-EAs only
That's totally mad... you're saying EAs should not be allowed to buy these new games!!?? And that's somehow helping EAs? Seriously...??
Quoted from Hjbondar:Pinball slave - I have a hard time understanding your position. I am curious if you are an EA? I ask because I think most EA’s, such as myself, do not feel this “offer” which implies being shoved to the back of the line for the original game, does not acknowledge their investment and patience.
I expressed my feelings to Barry on this as I imagine others have. Perhaps, as I suggested to Barry, if the offer was order at 12.5 and receive both games - then both parties could get whole!
I am an EA and I'm glad I've been offered to buy a game that needs to be sold to raise capitol. I have accepted the offer.
Quoted from GetTheJackpot:9) How much he is paying himself
10) How often does he go to the toilet? (Will also influence how quick the games get made).
Apology, should have said rest room...
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:Putting all of the EAs at the end of the line is not acceptable.
How will giving EAs a chance to go to the front of the line be putting EAs at the end of the line??? 
Please, if you can, explain your logic on that one point... just to educate me... please...
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:I have new money to buy a game but will not till EAs start getting games too.
Thank God not everyone thinks like that or DP would be dead in the water now and all outstanding EAs with nothing to show...
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:There is no ratio explained how these EA’s will get these games just that sometime within the 500.
So let’s say Barry uses his parts and makes 50 new games. In Barry’s mind all 50 will be sold for $12,500 of fresh new money. I’m saying since he already got paid on over 100 games. X go to new buyers and Y has to fill previous debts (EA’s).
That doesn't explain how EAs go to the back of the line by EAs going to the front of the line... sorry...
Let me try to explain how I see it... let's say, for sake of argument, 5 games need to be sold so that DP has enough to build 1 already paid for EA game... and let's say these games get sold to non EA buyers (obviously no-one like you of course)... the 6th game then gets made for the next EA in line... I.e. he's 6th... Now, let's say those 5 games get sold to EAs instead of non EAs... in this case the next in line for his already paid for game is 6th (again, amazingly). He is therefore no further back in the line than if non EAs bought the game... but... look at option 2 a bit closer... 5 EAs were ahead of him as opposed to 5 non-EAs... overall, therefore, EAs are moving to the front of the queue, not going more to the back... please highlight where I'm going wrong in my thinking because you seemed to think that by offering the retail games to EAs is pushing EAs more to the back of the line... where is my logic failing??
Quoted from adol75:Because in reality 500 games need to be built before taking care of the EAs and the odds for this to happen tend to grow thinner. The EAs are not a debt they are people who paid for their games.
So you think this explains why by not offering the games to EAs it will make EAs go closer to the front of the queue somehow?? Are we even talking about the same thing?? You should let Pdxmonkey answer for himself by the way rather than interject with some smoke screen that totally deflects the point in hand... imho...
Quoted from foxtj24:If Barry truly has an investor now. Why not make all the EA games now and make them whole.
Probably because the invesror doesnt have enogh money... that's my wild stab in the dark...
Quoted from adol75:Barry rejected them while saying his main priority is to honor his commitment to the EAs which now sound like total bs. And he failed once already with a ton of money, the parts, the suppliers, I still hope he succeeds but lets face it, the odds are lower than ever.
That may be so, but you were answering a question I asked someone else with an answer that doesn't answer the question...
Quoted from flynnibus:for some shallow promises of 'exclusives' and a FUTURE (that will never get to)
If you really don't think there will be a future, all the more incentive to buy a game now which will end up being rare and desireable and possibly even worth the $21k total outlay to an EA... or not buy a game with very limited run and not get the game you paid for and be down $8.5k... $21k for a game worth $21k or $8.5k for nothing... these are the options if DP really have no future... at least the choice is now exvlusively for EAs to make rather than non-EAs profiting from the EAs loss if it comes to a no future scenario...
Quoted from fast_in_muskoka:Who wouldn't want to race to the end of the week to agree to spend another $12.5k!!! /s"
The answer is: those that truly believe DP will survive and therefore they'll get their EA game with no further outlay... only the true believers would see this opportunity as a waste of money...
Quoted from adol75:Oh my bad, I thought this was a public thread...
It's ok... I also thought it was a public thread... pointing out that you answered a question addressed to someone else with an answer that didn't answer the question does not imply that this is not a public thread... does it? Very odd logic around here at times...
To all those banging on the 'we want to know the details of the schedule' drum, imagine this...
Barry, with his knowledge of what parts he has and how much each part will cost when that part runs out based on ordering a specific quantity, can calculate the number of games needed to make the first EA game, then how many to make the 2nd, then the 3rd, etc etc... he could produce a chart with a curve of EA games produced vs time... spending hours trying to factor in all the ins and outs... even calculating an accuracy tolerance based on uncertainties of the cost of parts he hasn't got quotes for yet because he already has 100 of that specific part, he could go out to vendors and get quotes for all those parts now and then create a more accurate chart...
a) the chart would very likely be inaccurate due to a ridiculous number of unforseen factors, like parts arriving off spec etc etc, so that at week 32, if he hasn't bashed out the predicted 37 EA games he going to be inundated with a string of abusive mail's calling him a liar again, and:
b) wouldn't that time be better spent building games and simply getting on with what's important to get this fixed!?!
Wasting all that time is counterproductive and reducing the chance of him pulling this off with a benefit that is, quite frankly, worthless.
Build the games Barry!
As an EA I'd prefer him to focus his time and energy on this rather than showing the world some half baked schedule... I'm guessing people wanting to see this aren't EAs and therefore don't care if he wastes his time on these things..
Quoted from Yelobird:Barry’s (I mean pinballslaves) post.
Just for the record, I am not Barry. 
Quoted from flynnibus:just build them and don't worry about the future..."
Why do you put these words in speech marks as though you're quoting me?? I never said "don't worry about the future"... I'm saying don't waste time calculating accurate schedules that will inevitably be inaccurate, but instead do what actually helps get the games made... I don't want or need to know which month my number 113 will be made, I just want him to do the stuff that actually helps him get to build it... I dont see how publicising inaccurate schedules helps... or even accurate ones for that matter...
Quoted from flynnibus:to the guy who failed previously because they failed to properly plan their schedule and expenses...
Fascinating.
I don't think the failures we saw previously were due to failing to publicise a schedule... I think the main problem was not having a water-tight contract with ARA, and the bad decision to try and start up again in China before ARA were out of the picture... not inefficient or un-transparent scheduling...
Maybe you're right though... maybe it was lack of accurate and transparent scheduling that screwed them up...
Quoted from Yelobird:My apology I wrongfully assumed your roughly 300 posts on the DP subject and location might assume you had some connection. My bad sorry.
Oh I have a connection all right... he has a lot of my money and I want a pinball for it, which I hope he's going to make...
Quoted from DCFAN:Are you really in Czech Republic?
At the moment I'm in Spain, but yes, I live in the Czech Republic...
Quoted from Oldgoat:There doesn't appear to be a well thought out detailed plan in place. Now I could be way off and DP may have one that Barry just doesn't choose to share;
He has a plan of course, the level of detail is speculative... I'm sure he's trying the get a balance between the depth of detail and the time it takes to go that deep so that ultimately the games progress at the quickest rate... wishful thinking... probably... but banging on about wanting to see a plan which may go wrong anyway, and therefore piss people off and waste time doesn't seem worthwhile to me... personally... but I'm an engineer, not a planner... different mind set I guess...
Quoted from flynnibus:It's called 'paraphrasing' - context makes that obvious.
Ah right... when I was at school I was taught the speech marks meant you were actually quoting someone word for word... my bad.
Quoted from flynnibus:"just get on with building..." -
I was also paraphrasing... obviously I don't mean just start pulling parts out of boxes and build machines... I mean do what's best to get things back on track but don't spend time publicising schedules of when each EA game will hit the streets...
Quoted from adol75:You come in with your reasoning of the 6th EA who is still 6th after 5 people, and you ask for logic... Interesting !
Errr... yeah... if the 6th game goes to an EA he will get his game after the 5th person... 6 is after 5... that's basic maths logic to me... what am I missing here?
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:It doesn't sound like any of us EA's will start to get games for quite a while yet, unless we're willing to pay another $12,500 for a newly produced (2nd) one.
Where are you getting those sounds from?
Quoted from dts:I enjoy reading your posts-optimistic EAs are rare, maybe only a few! Do you have your games on location? This must be one of the largest collections in Europe.
I guess my motivation for my 'non-condemning' posts comes from fear of losing a load of money... the only way I see out of this is if DP survive, so posts that condemn DP and rally enthusiasm for suing them (which would obviously kill them if successful) makes me see my hard earned cash vanishing... so I want to try and make that not happen by trying to shine a positive light on things... I guess... as for my collection, that's a bit of a bummer because they're pretty much ALL in storage!! 1 game is set up at my wife's flat, which we hardly go to because it's in another town 4hrs drive away, and another is set up in a friend's house... I've built a massive games room attached to my house that I've just finished renovating, but I'm not allowed to have a game in the actual renovated part of the house... and the pinball area is far from finished... "why should we have a game in the house when there's room for 100 games downstairs" is the argument... ah well, at least not having TBL yet avoids another frustration of not having that game set up to play!!
Quoted from Roostking:Ah, the age old "throw good money after bad" gambit. Throwing good money at this project, will always be bad.. IMO
You're only throwing good money after bad if you pay a lawyer to hunt DP down imo...
Quoted from Roostking:Also, why cant you setup your games in your dedicated game room, or your own house?
Games room: because it needs a floor, own house because I live there with my wife and she says no... if I disobey there will be hell and I don't want to put the kids through that hell... I have to obey or the kids suffer... effectively they get used as a manipulation tool... nothing I can do about it...
There's a lot to be said for being single!!
Quoted from donkadelic:Fact is, if you buy a game from them you are directly stealing 8000$ from a fellow pinsider.
With that logic, an EA buying one of these new games is stealing his own game... is that really theft if he steals from himself... we need Rarehero to interject with his ramblings on that one
hang on... donkadelic is a new account made since
Rarehero was ejected from this thread... and now donkadelic has a 7 day thread eject... 2+2 =
Quoted from ToucanF16:The wife can make life hell if they choose.
Oh yes... you can say that again!! I'm sure they're not all like that though... some amazing games there by the way!! What's Lexi Lightspeed like to play? Sorry for going ot...
Quoted from KerryImming:This is roughly a 3 : 1 ratio. One way to deliver these games would be to ship every fourth game to an EA.
You also have to factor in 2 additional elements:
1) There will be costs at the start (call it set-up costs) that will elevate the number of sold games needed before an EA game can be made.
2) As games get made, parts will start to get depleted at an increasing rate, at varying costs to replenish.
As I tried to point out earlier, it's not a simple ratio, but a curve depending on many factors, some unpredictable...
You can't accurately predict, therefore, how many games need to be sold to make an EA game at any one time...
I feel it's broken record time...
Quoted from flynnibus:He gave both US prices in USD 12,500 shipped.. and a Europe price in Euros (different price)
The European price being 11,995 PLUS shipping... Despite the games having to be shipped 'across the pond', US buyers get a better deal due to us Europeans having to pay VAT.
Quoted from KerryImming:There must be SOME estimate of the costs involved in order to arrive at the 500 game number.
I'm sure there is, but I think Barry would be hesitant to make these figures public in case there ends up being unforseen extra costs that would make the initial estimates wrong... The pinball community can be unforgiving when manufacturers don't get the numbers right... Also, I know for a fact that he's only just finished doing the inventory check of the parts from ARA, so any attempt to give a half accurate figure would be foolish before he'd done this...
Quoted from flynnibus:which is why I didn't say the europe price included shipping... only that the US price was 'shipped'
I spotted that too... you said it good.
Quoted from benheck:That's twice as many as they sold originally when they were the lords of all creation.
Just out of interest, wasn't the rock-star-esque announcement of TBL at EXPO the same time as AMH was was also taking orders?
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:My expectations are that Barry has to produce a certain number of TBL's at $12,500 each before mixing EA TBL's into production.
Yes... I'd say that's a pretty accurate assessment of the situation...
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:I don't see any EA machines being built with the parts on hand
My personal wager is that this will not be the case... don't forget that some of the parts on hand are for 200 games... I'm betting that we see an EA game made within the first 10 games made...
Quoted from Yelobird:For clarity he didn't say it wouldn't be a double pay EA.
Mmm, trying to get my head round the double negative on that one... but its true anyway... I didn't say it... ahhh, I get it now... sorry, it's late... So, for clarity, I'm not talking about a double pay EA... I'm talking about an already paid EA game that brings no extra cash to DP of course... I'm betting that one of those will be made in the next 10 games... It's highly likely that the others will be double pay games also going to EAs obviously, and way further back in the line than the EA who actually gets the EA game I'm talking about... seeing as he'd be the next in line!
Quoted from SunKing:I'll take that bet.
OK.
Quoted from j_m_:barry has lost the trust in everyone that backed the project but have not received a machine (the EAs)
Just to get the record straight... you're wrong.
Quoted from fosaisu:1/135 isn't a great ratio.
True... but what makes you think that's the ratio? You must realise there are others out there who still trust Barry... they just don't see the point in voicing their opinions here... I, however, find it entertaining for some reason...
Quoted from Yelobird:You are clearly his biggest fan (or relative). Nothing wrong with believing.
To be honest I'm sure there are bigger fans than me, but they're just not as vocal on these pages... I'm also no relative of Barry if that's what you were suggesting...
Quoted from Tomass:Doesn't make sense that anyone would defend a crook as much as he has, that's for sure.
If you can explain what he's done to make him a crook then your words might have some weight behind them... any chance of you doing that?
If you're not up to it, any of your thumbs-uppers to you troll post care to elaborate?
Quoted from estrader:Where’s the ea money pinballslave?
I don't know exactly... lawyers fees, payment for the first 95 games plus the 1/2 million euros worth of parts, setting up the Chinese production, promotional events, licencing... and some bottles of Kahlua I guess...
Quoted from Yelobird:I think you meant to type 40 games. The second batch was paid for again with New money. He was broke long before that.
Actually, I meant to type 55 because 40 got sold twice... still don't know exactly where the money went though... so re-read my previous statent with 55 instead of 95... no-one has been able to say why he's a crook yet, and the original stator of that claim @tom'ass' has buried his head in the sand rather that support his claim by putting me on ignore 
Quoted from estrader:You and the Guns N’ Roses guy can downvote me all you want
Thanks... the invite is mutual. 
Quoted from wcbrandes:Why does everyone leave out......they paid themselves a crap load of money, because it's the law!
That's a very good point of course... there were quite a few staff on board during the design phase at least, maybe Barry/Jaap kept them on the payroll longer than they should have done...
We'll probably never get a clear answer to where the money went, but I honestly don't think it was theft... to be honest I think the hype at expo where, as Mr Heck put it, they were "lords of all creation" gave DP an over-secure feeling of invincibility... like they couldn't fail, no matter what... as a consequence they probably spent too much money on all sorts of stuff... the prototypes themselves were, I understand, very expensive to make, not to mention hauling them around the globe... then there was the massive set up cost at ARA which was supposed to be spread across at least 300 games, not 55... or 95, however you look at it... many unexpected delays with possibly a full head of staff draining the finances... Philgate, licencing issues, John Goodman callout issues, getting the music re-made... quite simply I think they underestimated the costs involved and overestimated their ability to ride through these issues..
I believe and hope that Barry has got his wake-up call now, and will proceed with extreme caution from now on...
The game itself is packed with stuff making it also too expensive to make!! I firmly believe Barry is going through everything with a fine-tooth comb this time... I know he is dedicated to seeing this through and not letting the EAs down... despite what others might think...
Quoted from SunKing:All I require is some proof that just one EA game has been delivered within the first 10 games made from the recent stash of parts - and you have won $100!!
Let's see - I'm guessing he will build about 1....maybe 2 a week - so we will only have to wait until about June 2020 to settle up.
What do you consider to be proof? No sure I agree on your timing calculation there... 10 weeks from now brings us to the end of Nov...
Quoted from Roostking:Just in time, to be too late. Convenient..
Not sure what that means, but it sounds good! 
Quoted from TRAMD:I know he isn't but it is fun to think that pinballslave is actually Barry sitting with a laptop surrounded by TBL parts and procrastinating putting the first machine together by commenting here.
How do you know I'm not Barry??
Quoted from Dkjimbo:So there are 67 weeks between now and the end of 2020. We know the Dutch take an exorbitant amount of vacation so let’s say 60 weeks. He’s got parts to make 200 games supposedly. That’s 3.3 games per week starting next week to meet the goal. That number per week obviously goes up every week. It
I feel pretty confident that I... er, I mean Barry, is being very overly optimistic in his estimate of how long this is going to take!
Now... back to building these damn games!
Quoted from Yelobird:do you actually have a verification you could share with the group or are you simply a wishful consumer with a commitment to sharing optimism?
I wouldn't call what I have a verification, but I do get some of my optimism from the horse's mouth as it were... I communicate with Barry and, despite popular belief, get the feeling he's being honest... the other element to my trying to quash negativity is that I want my game. Negativity on here doesn't help that cause, so if I feel it's unfounded I want to speak out because unfounded negativity may have an unfounded detrimental effect on me getting my game... people might be put off buying a game if they take all this negativity to heart, and I know that at this stage of the game, people need to buy games to give Barry the cash to build my EA game...
There must be a proverb that sums that effect up, probably involving Rome... "many mouths maketh a collapsed Rome" perhaps...
Quoted from wlf_:You're beating around the bush, and it seems about time maybe you let everyone know your connection/relationship with Barry/Dutch Pinball, if there is any.
I already shared my connection with Barry many posts back... he's got a lot of my money and I want him to make a game for it and then give it to me... that's really as deep as it goes...
Speaking as an EA, If I see someone flipping one of those 40 games that were sold recently through CT, or selling any TBL for that matter, at an inflated price, I like it! It may sound odd to some, but the higher price these games get flipped for the more I think I'm not going to lose so much if I buy a 2nd game for $12.5k and don't end up getting my original game... in this case I'd have effectively paid $21k for my TBL... So if I see them selling at about that price it gives me a comfortable feeling...
Quoted from estrader:I guess we will see how serious Barry is about making more of this game depending on code updates.
My view would be that if he's serious about making more games then code updates will be a lower priority than getting the production going...
Quoted from VividPsychosis:I am selling my vette for 50k so that and the 13k would get me where I need to be to cover my wife’s mother in laws nursing home fees.
That sucks more than not getting a TBL after paying for it!
Quoted from estrader:How many more people are going to buy without the code updates? If Barry builds more it waters down the rarity effect and without code updates the game is not complete so asking people to pay 12.5 for a game that all of a sudden isnt rare without code updates is a tough sell.
Understand and agree... I'm just pointing out that at the moment, code updates will probably not be forthcoming since Barry has other priorities, as bad as it sounds...
Quoted from benheck:I don't know what your intentions are but the above is exactly what a shill (AKA con artist partner) would say.
Well, I know for a fact that I'm not a con-artist partner, therefore I also know that what I said is not limited to con-artist partners... I said what I said because it's true... if I see TBLs selling for 20, 25k it makes me feel confident that the game I'd effectively pay 21k for (if I don't get my original game) may be worth that... it's very simple... you seem to be looking too deeply into it... that statement doesn't even support DP... It assumes they will fail... you said they will fail, so I'm listening to you... my statement supports your idea that they will fail.
Quoted from benheck:1) don't realize how your logic sounds
2) are trying to give people confidence in a doomed endeavor
3) have fallen for Barry's con logic yourself
Given those choices I'd probably go for 1). However, if I was permitted to add a choice I'd add:
4) Being honest.
And then I'd pick 4...
Quoted from benheck:If Barry shows new, completed games with today's newspaper laying on the glass then by all means fork over more money.
Or even better, go there in my car, load the game, then transfer the money while he makes me a cup of tea...
Quoted from benheck:Since only a few more will get made they probably will continue to resell for 20k.
That's the point I'm making... and if I see them selling for around that price, it gives me confidence that my total outlay may be covered... I would, however, change the word 'will' (the 1st one) to 'might'... unless you have an especially effective and proven crystal ball...
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Only going to get quicker!
Bear in mind that the parts they're using to make the first few games are low hanging fruit... so it will need only a few extra parts to make them complete... as time progresses, unless Barry gas got his ducks lined up, things may actually slow down as more parts to complete games are needed... hopefully he will have these on order already!
Quoted from fosaisu:Do you pay nothing up front and then full amount when ready to ship?
I'm on the list for one of the next games and certainly haven't been asked for any money yet... but then I also haven't been told that my game is getting built... I suspect what you're saying is the case... payment terms have not been confirmed however...
Quoted from Londonpinball:Are you saying Barry is simply taking pictures of half built ARA games to lie to potential customers ???
I read QSS's post to mean that there is just one photo of a half built game that Barry built... I don't think he's implying that this is a photo from ARA... and that the claim of 4-5 per week is unrealistic... what we don't know at this stage is if there are other people assembling games or not...
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Here is another picture.. Games being boxed tomorrow ready for pick up
Do you think he's hidden the bowling mech to hide the special extras he's been talking about?
Quoted from Time:In Pinhead1982's photo, the apron doesn't have the TBL silkscreen. Thats odd right? You'd think that would have been done before being installed.
Yes, I noticed the blank apron... no idea what the plan is there... time will tell I guess...
Quoted from MrBally:Don't forget Quality Systems manager, and Manufacturing engineering.
And tea lady!
Quoted from knockerlover:Dude, tea lady is not the preferred nomenclature.. tea person please..
Ah yes, sorry... but isn't that excluding robots?
Quoted from Roostking:Well, there is a precedent!!
Talking of presidents, isn't Trump planning to impose import tax on goods from Europe very soon? Not sure if that would include pinballs...?
Quoted from Pinhead1982:yep I’ve bought it twice!
More accurately, you've bought 2... just the 2nd one you bought you're getting before the 1st one
Quoted from Londonpinball:3 weeks later ONE game already build by ARA is about to be sent out to pinhead
Don't forget the other one in the picture... just because it's not being shipped to pinhead doesn't invalidate it's existence... and these games were built by Barry and his 'team' not ARA.. by the way... and also dont forget that in those 3 weeks Barry has moved all those parts from ARA into his new manufacturing area, and organised them to aid assembly... that doesn't happen overnight... so making 2 games when you consider all the other stuff he's been doing is not bad at all... he's also been spending time finding suppliers for parts he's short of....and ordering them from what I can gather... not to mention making himself occational hot beverages!
Quoted from mbwalker:I'm curious...are you involved in this endeavor in some way?
Yes, I'm an EA... are you also involved? I have to admit, however, that my hot beverage claim is a bit speculative... Barry may prefer cold beverages... but this is the thread for speculation after all, so I'm just joining the party... 
Quoted from Concretehardt:I heard DP received a handful of partially assembled games from ARA (along with the 40 fully assembled games) so I assume this “new build” is one of those partially assembled games.
I had not heard that myself, and from photo's I saw of the parts DP got from ARA, the cabs I saw looked empty, so I don't think there were any partially assembled games...
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Stop winding them up Lee.. Barry... no Lee..
It's easy to get confused... even I get confused sometimes, with all the ins and outs and what-have-yous... lotta strands to keep in my head!
Just an update on the beverage front, Barry does have a hot beverage in the morning (coffee) and then moves over to a cold beverage in the afternoon in the form of a Coca Cola... so, it seems he's keeping his caffeine levels up! Maybe that's how he could make 2 games while he had all this other stuff on his plate!
Quoted from mbwalker:LOL, with the beverage comment I thought you might be involved in the factory someway.
Not directly... just keeping an eye on things as far as that's possible from a distance of 800km... sometimes via information shared on the private EA thread, and sometimes by direct contact with Barry, as was the case enabling me to clarify his beverage habits...
Quoted from knockerlover:In 2.6 years all the EA's will be whole.. ludicrous
Personally I'd be happy with that result... I'm not in a hurry myself... my gamesroom might just be ready for it by then!
Quoted from Dkjimbo:The “private thread” should be closed and open to public to read. The private thread for EAs is completely irrelevant
If it's irrelevant, why do you think It would be good for It to be open to the public to read?
Quoted from Mitch:That's why he said non EAs should be able to read the EA thread to gain info but not be allowed to post in it.
Ok, but the issue would then be that the content of the private thread will spill to the public area and the pointless criticisms would continue just as if the thread were open to everyone...
When games start hitting the streets the vibe will change and the good news will spread no doubt... if anyone really wants one of these games, I'm confident you'll be able to get one... the private thread won't damage that potential from what I can tell...
Quoted from Dkjimbo:if there are facts that suggest the runway is clear and this is going to pick up steam then the current market premium over the purchase price evaporates.
While games are making it out of DP I suspect this premium price model is dead already... flippers are going to have to wait and see if DP survive or not...
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Why 10 games a month?
You obviously missed the bit where he said he doesn't want to wear the rug out oops, wrote at same time as MPRAMONE... he beat me to the send button...
Quoted from Richthofen:how exactly is a second game going to help?
You obviously haven't read a great deal about what's going on with this game... Barry is out of money you see, and cant afford to buy parts/pay rent etc etc if he only makes already paid for EA games, so he has to also make games to sell to keep cash coming in...
Quoted from Richthofen:Now we are talking about a second game, which would have a different parts list and Barry would have to author his own schematics and hire someone to do new software, etc... how does that get them closer to the EAs getting their games?
Sorry, my mistake... I thought, when you mentioned a 2nd game, you were referring to EAs buying a 2nd game in order to fund production of their 1st game... not a 2nd title... this next title is waaaay down the road, and, as Pinhead pointed out, will have no time spent on it 'till the TBL saga is behind him... I believe!
Quoted from dts:The point is, he is trying to build a successful and sustainable company. But the focus now is on TBL.
The teeny tiny snag, however, is that after TBL is behind him and all EAs satisfied (assuming we get to that point) then DP won't be very financially solvent due to all shit that has happened in this saga leading to the current status of Barry needing to sell games I'm parallel to making EAs already paid for games... it means pretty much back to the beginning as opposed to where he planned to be... I.e. to have enough money to make the next title without needing pre-order funding... so my very rough synopsis is that the next title will also need to follow the pre-order model... unless Barry has a trick up his sleeve...
Quoted from crwjumper:Did you get a rug?
Can't you see he's got enough pinball rugs already
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Over here is EastEnders or Coronation Street!
East Enters and Coronation Street are still on !!!???
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:Would Barry do a version without the lower playfield and make it virtual bowling instead in order to sell it at a lower price point? Will there be demand for TBLs without the bowling mechanism?
Personally I'd prefer a well done simulated bowling feature than the mech... at least you can get a strike from a split in simulated bowling... and even apply some spin and adjust speed and ball weight...
Quoted from BladeFury:Somebody start a bowl-O-Rama Thread for us off topic peeps and let this thread get back on topic TBL...sorry guys we got off on a big tangent...Still hope to own a TBL someday!
I think that was my fault for saying I'd prefer a well simulated bowling game to the mechanical toy...
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Yikes - now I really feel fortunate! Thanks for sharing. So sorry re: your bad luck with your TBL's delivery,
Given the choice of having 1 TBL arrive perfect, or one arrived smashed but working and then a 2nd arrive perfect, I'd choose the latter personally... basically a complete working machine for spares! Call me weird, but that would be a result in my book! Also DP sell another game, which I assume is paid for by the insurance?
Quoted from fosaisu:He had to return the totaled game.
Ah, I missed that bit... so what happened to it, if anyone knows? Did it go back to DP so they can use it for parts? Did DP get paid from the insurance for the 2nd game they had to make?
Quoted from Nikonokin:Now, sadly, the new one arrived and it's likely going up for sale to deal with a nightmare home expense I had come up.
Sorry to hear that Nikomokin, sounds like a form of hell!! Pity your house insurance aren't picking up the tab for that!!
So would DP get paid the full cost for a 2nd game from the insurance company?
Quoted from Nikonokin:Covid has devastated the business and I'm trying to juggle it all. I have a good overhead and have lost 80-90% of my business at this point, much of which won't return soon if at all. So...effing blows. Never planned to sell these games...
That has to suck big time! I feel myself very lucky to have not been hit by Covid financially at all, working for a company that sells oxygen, business has actually picked up!! I feel for everyone who's going through the ringer with this!!
So I take it DP ended up getting paid in full for 2 games due to the DHL f**k up...
Quoted from Drew13:What do we need to do to get the topper to work?
A socket to match that plug perhaps? Sorry, not much help I know, but I couldn't resist
Quoted from TomDK:the DP lockbar is slightly to bright,
By 'bright'... you mean long?
Quoted from Yelobird:he highlighted the issue of product component supply as the major issue and sourcing parts and the solution is a bigger building?
I have to admit, I don't see where he's saying the solution to sourcing parts is getting a bigger building... maybe I'm not reading it right... where does he say that?
Quoted from Yelobird:That was not why I asked that. I am simply Asking he notes "The biggest challenge turns out to be sourcing parts"
The way I read it is that sourcing parts has been a challenge, but they've mastered that, so it's time for the next big step, which is the bigger building... but I agree there is a bit of a grey area there since he also talks about building the games as also being a challenge... so it's not clear excecly what he's referring to as having mastered... anyhow, even if sourcing parts is still a challenge, getting a bigger building has to be a step in the right direction...
Quoted from Rick432:Someday I'll have the same post...
I have confidence you will!
Quoted from jyeakley:Ehhh…not a fan of playfield protectors personally. They get cloudy over time and junk collects underneath them…
I bought a Hobbit with a playfield protector, looked awful... cut it off and saw the artwork properly for the first time, beautifully preserved I have to say, so the protector was good for that, but only for when the previous owner had the game... it's now getting dimples, but I prefer that than looking through the cloudy protector.
Is this the place to discuss general stuff about the game? Just set my game up and played my first game on it, beautiful game, very solid feel to it, as many have said, feels like a 90's Bally Williams game!
I had a bit of an issue during multiball though... I shot one ball into to 'let's go bowling' and I had another ball left... super-jackpot was lit... I thought it was holding the ball as a kind of helper so I could make SJ, but after I made it it still didn't come out, so I kept picking off regular jackpots... I did hit the 'let's go bowling' jackpot twice... after losing the ball the game went into ball search, but the ball still didn't come out... I was thinking that the game might throw another ball in the shooter lane after a few failed ball searches, but it didn't... must have left it to do 20ish ball searches before I had to turn it off... anyone else had this and know what the issue is? Here's the game it its new home!
Quoted from Rensh:This is more a post for in the owners thread or maintenance thread but let’s try to help anyway.
What happened after you turned game off on? Did the ball come out of the scoop or …? At least, I think it was there?
I am having the feeling that service faq page 336 might be applicable.
Ok... well, I'm here now... so
Next time I'll know where to go...
Anyway, I decided to lift the playfield before turning the game back on and I could hear the ball rolling around I'm some place under the playfield after only lifting it a few cm... then I looked it again and it rolled around even more and sounded like it fell into 'something'... I decided to then turn the game on because I had the feeling that lifting the playfield a bit helped free it from wherever it was... and after booting up it shot the ball straight out of the scoop... clearly it got stuck underneath... the question is, where could it have got stuck and how to stop it from doing it again... even balls shot in let's ho bowling while I was still in multiball didn't free it... I had had balls come out of the scoop after going into LGB before, it was only during MB that it got stuck somewhere...
Quoted from jackd104:Your home is very Dude-like and fits the game perfectly (or vice-versa). A place I’d really like to smoke a doob and play TBL.
Thanks for your compliments on my mancave furnishings You're welcome to pop in if you ever find yourself in the vicinity
Quoted from Rensh:Sounds like it’s getting stuck in the subway. This is a metal bent frame. Set playfield in vertical position and check if you can see a spot were it’s to narrow. As we are taking over millimeters it might not be so easy to spot. Let us know, doesn’t sound like it’s a difficult issue.
Will check. Thanks! Future 'owners' talk will be on the owner's thread.
Quoted from hassellcastle:Mine has had this issue as well and hard to tell where it is getting stuck. I thought I was the only one experiencing this issue, but your is spot on too mine.
Honestly very difficult to figure out how to fix since as soon as you lift the playfield you hear the ball dislodge from wherever it’s getting stuck in the subway. Being that the subway is metal and the bowling alley mech in the way It’s impossible to open the coindoor with a flash light light and see where it might be getting stuck.
Exactly... I'm planning to take the subway off and just look for pinch-points, burrs, obstructions... strange that putting another ball in the subway doesn't dislodge it! The new ball in there might be knocking the stuck ball free and then getting stuck itself... could try putting a coloured ball in there the next time it happens to see which one comes out!
I know this is the wrong thread for this, but for the purpose of completeness, I fixed it... basically, where the subway meets the scoop the edge of the scoop was forming a lip that the ball had to jump over... sometimes the momentum of the ball was enough to get it over the lip, and sometimes not. When stuck, the next ball would knock the stuck ball over the lip, which would take the momentum out of that ball so it would then become the stuck ball... I just took the scoop out and filed off a bit from the edge... see before and after pics... working like a dream now!
20231104_174612 (resized).jpg20231104_180229 (resized).jpg20231104_181128 (resized).jpg
I will have to download the manual, assuming that's where the page 336 is that you're referring to. I'm guessing there's a lot of other useful info in there!
I'm trying to find someone who doesn't want to keep the pallet that the game is shipped... I'm willing to buy it, but I'd ask the seller to help me ship it to an address in Cranford NJ, which I'll obviously pay for... I'd send mine, but I'm on the wrong side of 'the pond' to make shipping it a viable option... need it to ship a pin to me in Europe, so it needs the heat treated stamp as this pallet has and also needs to be the same size for practical reasons (it's being packed indoors, and needs to fit through a doorway after packing). Thanks a lot!!
Quoted from GranpaDave:Early adaptor
Early Achiever to be precise... a twist from the film's 'little Lebowski urban achievers'.
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Litvinov
Ashland, KY