(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)

By Nilroc

4 years ago

Topic Stats

  • 11,069 posts
  • 611 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 days ago by Toucanf16
  • Topic is favorited by 188 Pinsiders


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Topic index (key posts)

26 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #2465 Tips on removing the upper playfield Posted by sd_tom (2 years ago)

Post #2474 Photo of the updated divertor Posted by sd_tom (2 years ago)

Post #2477 Photos of new tilt graphics side art for TBL Posted by jGraffix (2 years ago)

Post #2506 Factory visit update! Posted by rubberducks (2 years ago)

Post #2926 DP's response to their issue with ARA and game manufacturing. Posted by JimB (2 years ago)

Post #2971 pinghetto contacts ARA for information regarding the delays Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #2973 pinghetto information regarding contacting ARA Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #3056 ARA's email response about DP's claims. Posted by CrazyLevi (2 years ago)

Post #3483 Jaap from Dutch Pinball counters the ARA story. Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3491 ARA counters the Jaap counter to ARA's previous communication! Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3650 Report from a dinner with Barry of Dutch Pinball. Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #3951 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #4259 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #5004 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5229 DP update about an alternative manufacturer Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5461 Details on June 19th DP Livestream Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #6420 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by KoenHeltzel (1 year ago)

Post #6684 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Concretehardt (1 year ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#1772 3 years ago

Got notification today. You can call me, 1st Container Kim but I prefer Duderino #20.

#1787 3 years ago

RE: Power switch. Google stretching exercise.


#1792 3 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

this is a joke?
this machine is built in netherlands and the only dealers are in the US and CA, correct? no dealer in the EU?
if you want this machine, you need to buy it to cointaker, paying an oversea shipping and customs, still correct?
dutch pinball can go to hell...

Please take a deep breath and contact Dutch Pinball before sending anyone to hell.

#1805 3 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

So why do they write this to my friend?

Sorry but you have too many layers of communication going on here. Beginning with you posting hearsay from a friend.

But then this type of thing does represent 90% of Pinside.

#1816 3 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

you mean MoP did not get the right to propose this pin on their website and take pre-orders?

Oh come on man. You're in the same time zone as Dutch Pinball. Maybe call them or email for direct information rather than asking for Pinside speculation and uninformed opinions? - And you're not even interested in buying the game??

Sorry if I seem like a dick. But when you suggested they would ship a game from the Netherlands and charge an overseas fee to a European customer, I'm puzzled as hell.


#1818 3 years ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

Kim - quit showing off 'cause you are are in transit #147!

I need another Pinside vacation.

#1837 3 years ago
Quoted from r6emperor:

I just got an email from Barry with tracking info. The other 20 people should have the same email.

With the link Barry provided in the email I looked up our ships present location. Here's some screen shots.





#1840 3 years ago

Having recently shipped a container from Japan, my only worry is that Homeland Security might select our container for quarantine. I know its necessary to do these days but it can cause a substantial delay. - I'm keeping a good thought.

#1845 3 years ago

Thoughtful friends have been posting on my Facebook wall.


#1848 3 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Who's behind the wheelhouse of the beloved Delphinus?

Joseph Hazelwood

#1858 3 years ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

This is an unverified satellite photo of the ship about to leave port. I hear they will have at least 4 of these guys rowing - round the clock!

Those are nihilist's in chase boat.

- But I'm worried. Is sailing allowed on Shabbos?

#1859 3 years ago

Woo hoo!! Out of the English Channel and headed due west across the North Atlantic. I'm watching this and wishing I had a joy stick.


#1872 3 years ago

I'm taking suggestions for my Magic Girl T-shirt.

#1885 3 years ago

Looks like Captain Hazelwood is navigating from the liquor cabinet again.



#1899 3 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yeah. This was back during Phil era I think, so overcome by events I'm sure.

Phil-Gate. What a douche that guy proved to be.

#1912 3 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I have no knowledge of what Captain Hazelwood may or may not choose to eat.

He enjoys a heavy oil diet.

#1939 3 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

So shouldn't Cointaker be contacting us all to get shipping arranged? Has anyone gotten contact from them yet that has a game on the boat?

OT. - I think its kind of interesting that at least 2 of the 21 machines on the container shipment are coming to Colorado. Anyone else?

#1943 3 years ago

Got an email from DP this morning. Cointaker will be in touch with us soon.

#1945 3 years ago
Quoted from wyopin:

So I'm hoping I get an invite to come down to CO to play one of your TBL's!! ?

Anybody that has Al Swearengen as their avatar is welcome in my house.

#1953 3 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

F*ckin A!
Should be unboxing in about 2-3 hours....

McCarthy for President 68?!?.... Well.... I do approve of the "68".

#1962 3 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

damn.. why is my phone not ringing

Call Melissa. I left a message this morning and she got back with me with in an hour. My machine ships tomorrow.

#1992 3 years ago

Got the call my game shipped. Sorry Rarehero.

#1994 3 years ago

Thanks Dude.

2 weeks later
#2068 3 years ago

Here's a picture of mine, Gene.

DSCN2097 (resized).JPG

#2101 3 years ago
Quoted from taz:

I've been very fortunate so far. As best I can tell, my TBL is working mechanically 100% out of the box.

This has been mostly my experience as well. Only the rug switch is a tad inconsistent and I know its solvable. I did some of the usual fine tuning that I always expect with a NIB and this machine rocks. Wednesday night I had a Lewboski party and it was played non stop with "mark it zero" problems.
The craftsmanship on my machine is stellar and everybody really enjoyed it.

Quoted from ectobar:

but since Titans came out I've switched over to them and like the feel of them much better.

I'm playing with whats existing for now, otherwise its Titan rings for all of my machines.

#2107 3 years ago

I'm not having any of these issues but my compliments to you, Tom.

I know what a pain in the ass it is to pull out tools, evaluate a repair, test and re-test theory and then document everything with photographs. Even writing up an explanation and posting pictures is time consuming.

I see others helping as well and its a tribute to our community.

Well done, Sd_tom

4 weeks later
#2283 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Because they are a brand new company. They want to get through pre orders first. Then take more orders.

I find this an impressive action by a company that intends to be a serious player.

#2285 3 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I had the opposite problem (maude shot, bounces off donny gate, then back down maude shot

I have had this happen on both shots, Donnie and Maude but they never once returned SDTM. I will be adding a small piece of dead foam to both gate flaps.

As soon as I stop playing the thing.

#2286 3 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Just from this video the bowling alley looks level and the ball appears to be shot out.
» YouTube video
:57 mark

No. As SD Tom said, the bowling lane is sloped and the ball releases via gravity.

#2363 3 years ago

Is that Kahlua or coffee liqueur?

e948f4a9cbd56cf46c5efd7b81b137540a34e398 (resized).jpg

#2392 3 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

I also think various parts are being sent in bulk to Cointaker and then they are distributing them individually in the US

This is what I was told also. I chatted with Melissa (on the run) and she confirmed it.

4 months later
#3293 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I didn't know anyone read his posts. They take up about 5 screens on my iphone.

He's not into the whole brevity thing.

2 weeks later
#3602 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

I absolutely love the game. The latest code .48 is actually in depth enough to keep me going and hopefully they have something updated in the next few months after they get these games back off of the ground. I am fortunate to have one.

I have game #20 and love mine also. I had a party a couple months ago and went to bed around two as the party carried on without me. When I woke up around 7:30 there were people still here and playing. Out of pinball courtesy my experienced friends had shut off all of my other games when they had had enough of them but kept playing TBL. I made coffee, the girls made mimosas and we played to 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

33 hours it was played straight and it held up perfectly. Everybody loved it and one of my friends was a complete geek over it. Beautiful machine and extremely well constructed.

Since taking possession I've been quietly following this thread not wanting to say much and my heart breaks for what you guys are going though. But I'm confident my friends Greg and Brian and all of you will receive your machines and be very pleased in the end.

2 weeks later
#3798 2 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

For sure, time for somebody to get a life!

Yes. There are many of us that spend too much time here. Some pointing fingers.

#3802 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Thumbs down for you not getting the point.

Good to know. I will edit my comment to you and remove my down vote.

#3822 2 years ago

They are making a statement that Dutch Pinball as a company is moving forward, obstacles and all. Of course they're announcing their second game along with remedies for advancing both machines and the company's future.

Quoted from Richthofen:

I mean, they are announcing title #2 to get more preorder cash so they can finish title #1.

You have no proof of this. Why not let them make the announcement at TPF of what their terms are before you start your propaganda.

#3871 2 years ago

"If you wish to unsubscribe from Russian Hacking, click here".

#4122 2 years ago

Prior to the announcement I was still optimistic that DP's long awaited explanation would smooth things over and give some clarity. When I read their email yesterday, I just slumped into my chair sick for my friends and embarrassed at my wishful support.

A $12K Bride of Pinbot announcement was such a slap in the face.

Please don't feel foolish by insensitive know-it-all's on Pinside. You guys deserve justice in some form and I'm keeping a good thought for all.

#4191 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Please if anyone attended and can send me a recording it would be greatly appreciated

Pinball News usually records these seminars and puts them on the web site under the appropriate article. I just checked and they are not up yet. Martin often needs time to post them and complete the articles but eventually they do get posted so keep checking back.


#4297 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I think the argument is they severely underestimated the manufacturing costs and/or they mismanaged the pre-order money.

Those are they only two scenarios you see? I think you're overlooking the ARA hostage argument.

#4302 2 years ago
Quoted from Astropin:

I believe he was arguing that this is not a money scam. That it was mismanagement of the money or underestimating the real costs to build.

Thank you, my mistake and I appreciate you pointing that out. I have amended my comment.

#4314 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Dutch has shown poor business dealings before with Philgate

On this we can agree to disagree. I realize I'm in the minority here but I believe Phill was mean spirited in manipulating Pinside with partial and out of context emails while trying to sabotage his partners. Any internal problems DP had should have been handled privately with a lawyer and not paraded in public.

Although Pinside loves trash like this, it was completely unprofessional of him to bring those issues here. On top of that, I believe many of the things he said were untrue and/or exaggerations. I will admit that Phill was very clever in presenting his skewed evidence but a keen eye could tell many things just didn't add up. Even present day I am shaking my head at what Phill did.

This is ancient history and my opinion. I have no intent to argue this point or go off topic. And I am not defending DP for this current round of problems.

#4315 2 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I think I agree.
If DP thought they had a water tight case I think they would have been more vocal at TPF.

They are in dangerous potential legal waters and attempting to negotiate a deal. They have to be careful and limited in what they say. I'm surprised they've said as much as they have so far.

#4317 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Your kidding right? So lie instead?

There is no excuse for telling lies. That isn't what I said or implied.

#4384 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Hm, have to disagree. This is how I see it:
Phil wanted nothing but out. DP was demonstrating games and distributing flyers that directly violated their agreement with the studio, and Phil knew that. DP was spending lots of money on parties and promotion. Phil was receiving and responsible for all US deposits, possibly personally. Phil had cancer and was fearful for his family's finances if TBL project went south. DP *wouldn't let him out* because it would be difficult to create a new US presence, so he forced the issue and escaped by refunding all the money in his account. His account, not DP's. Most importantly, as soon as that was all done, he disappeared from the hobby, which is exactly what I'd expect if all the preceding was true.
The fact that the DP folks could look stand there at Expo and Terry's and take our money and say everything was fine, when obviously it wasn't... when they knew the game they were showing wasn't close to being approved (hey, where's those 20 licensed songs?)
And now we have this latest round of dishonesty... "bad boards" etc..
I do not blame Phil.

Cool. I wish you had posted my entire quote but no matter, we can agree to disagree.

#4394 2 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

I was just informed that ARA fired their Managing Director, who I was actually supposed to talk to next week. This could actually be a good thing for TBL as things now may move forward. It could also indicate the problem was at ARA and not at DP. Will post more news when I have any.

Quoted from Rensh:

You beat me to it
The above is correct. The manager called Rene was fired on the spot and this was yesterday publically announced in the canteen in front of all the employees by 2 commissioners from ARA holding
Firing on the spot is very unusual in NL and only done in cases like theft, sexual misabuse or gross mismanagement. I suspect the latter is the case.
This opens possibilities for sure and deserves a White Russian to celebrate this. Let's all take a stand now in wait what kind of news this brings next week or the week after

Now THIS is news I wanted to hear. Not some $12.5 BOP.

I hate to get ahead of things but right now I'm feeling optimistic again.

#4419 2 years ago

The Pinball News article of the Texas Pinball Festival has now been updated to include a written version of the DP seminar. No audio recording posted yet so you might want to check back.


DP article is towards the bottom.

#4430 2 years ago

Wow. A little good news and all of the opinion experts with no skin in the game suddenly go quiet. Go figure.

#4438 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Yes. Unfortunately, this thread and others have drawn plenty of Pinsiders, with no stake in TBL, eager to pile on the negativity and kick "idiot" pre-orderers when things have looked dark recently.

^^^This^^^ This is what I meant. Thank you Tuna.

Sorry for the confusion guys with my misunderstood comment. Fact is, I am sick and tired of the negativity coming from people with no skin in the game. People coming in during troubled times and bashing on the unfortunate. They are always commenting with the worst case scenario based on total speculation. Know-it-alls posting their opinions after the fact and intentional or not, ridiculing those of you at risk. I've seen it happen with Jpop, Medieval Madness Remakes, Predator and others. And I have suffered some of that crap myself.

My original meaning was this thread was alive, on fire with negative comments and bashing. Then Rarehero post some good news finally and this thread went dead for 12 hours because the naysayers had nothing to feed on.

#4451 2 years ago
Quoted from sed6:

ZERO. No chance, not gonna happen. Roll your money up and smoke it instead. That or giving a deposit to DP have equal chances of getting you a game. Or send me your money and I too will delivery an empty promise but no game.

There you have it friends. Confident, bold, negative speculation and shaming of others by association.

#4455 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Wow. A little good news and all of the opinion experts with no skin in the game suddenly go quiet. Go figure.

Enough people have responded to this comment to make me realize it was poorly written and so vague its been misinterpreted. I value everyone's feedback and will try to learn from this. - Apologies.

1 week later
#4541 2 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

But I'm pretty happy with the instrumentals.

Top notch music in my opinion and sound quality. No need to change the music files for me.

IPDB added a TBL category and put my photos up. If I missed anything or if anybody wants additional pictures let me know.


1 week later
#4597 2 years ago

New podcast with Roger Sharpe was posted by you know who. In it, Mr. Sharpe discusses how he got DP an extension on the TBL license because of the ARA snafu. "Wasn't a problem" "Simple process".

The entire interview is good but if you want, you can skip to about the 55:25 mark.

Quoted from iceman44:

No update? Shocking.

Hows your Alien LE coming along?

#4613 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Lebowski Update
STARWARS pin announcement!?

It's also Alien Day and there's a Pinside thread that's about to go nuclear.

1 week later
#4636 2 years ago
Quoted from deadzebra:

Can anyone get up that right ramp on the regular? What's the secret? I can almost get up there off the tip of the left flipper but it usually doesn't quite make it. Maybe need to juice up the flipper power?

As long as its a clean shot, I make it no problem. Flipper strength is at factory setting and after I got myself dialed in, it's become one of my favorite and most satisfying shots.

#4700 2 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

Just checked Koen's LinkedIn page and it looks like he started with a new job last month. Good for him. I don't think DP had enough for him to work on fulltime at the moment, so I don't see a problem. TBL code can also be finished by him as a freelancer. Congrats on his new job!

That may be but DP will still need to account for it and they don't need to wait on ARA for an explanation.

2 weeks later
#4908 2 years ago

Interesting side note. My machine has no serial number on it or in it. Only the Achiever Edition plaque number.
I'm wonder about others.

#4917 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

I guess the plaque serves as your serial #?

I have another collector machine that came with a numbered plaque and yes, that was the games serial number. However, the same serial number on that game was also impression stamped in three different areas. It was stamped on the cabinet head, cabinet body and on the front edge of the playfield.
Anyway, I just found it curious and don't mean to go off topic.

#4928 2 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

This is bullshit. What more is required than a yes or no? More of the same. Some people never learn.

Such anger. What's the number of your game?

.... Yeah, that's what I thought.

#4932 2 years ago

17309519_10211977674454264_3541950425918153088_n (resized).jpg

#4935 2 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

I don't fit in with losers. Thread drained.

Golf clap.

#4966 2 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

you end up with a machine with 40% code

The code is complete. All games could use more code but TBL is complete as people who actually have the game have already stated.

Could you explain where you got this 40% number?

#4971 2 years ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

While "complete" is not necessarily the right word, the current code with the rug modes is a pretty solid, fun game that I would never get sick of. If the code never goes beyond this - it's still better than a lot of sterns, or other machines.

I can agree with this. But to claim only 40% was unfair and misleading.

#4974 2 years ago
Quoted from dzoomer:

No, it isn't using the pretty-much-universal software programming and naming scheme that TBL appears to employ. Version 1.0 is the typical reasonably complete release milestone in that numeric scheme, and it usually goes beyond it with bug fixes and refinements. DP on their forum lists the current TBL software at 0.48. All the parts may be programmed to work, but the software and game play is a long ways from complete in the eyes of the original programmer.
True, I personally wouldn't put any number estimating how complete TBL coding is (e.g., the 40% put out here), rather I'd leave it at pointing to the software version number.

You and Rubberducks make some good points and I appreciate that.

I guess I'm being optimistic about future code no matter the outcome and that may be influencing my opinion. DP is using a P-ROC system and it would seem to me other people could easily pick up wherever the code was left off.
Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken but that's been my understanding all along and one of the reasons I was attracted to this project.

#5001 2 years ago
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:

The main OS is open source,

This is my understanding and another reason why I want the remaining machines built. A library of code written by 300 owners verses 50 has much greater potential.

Parts scarcity is practically a non issue in this age of 3-D printers, hobby fabricators and Planetary Pinball. I remember a day when Cliffy was the only game in town.

#5081 2 years ago

I find it irritating that some people with no skin in the game are cheer-leading for a lawsuit with no explanation. You maybe right and I'm even leaning that way after the latest news.

But please cite your reasons or intellectually explain your position rather than methodically and simply shouting, Burn her, she's a Witch.

DrNGvFW (resized).jpg

#5084 2 years ago
Quoted from dannylite:

Selling #thebiglebowskil =undude

Disagree. Its his right to sell what he owns just like anyone else. Same as the people who are now selling their Alien and Full Throttle machines.

You may find it distasteful but the argument here is not with Eggbert but with DP.

#5101 2 years ago

I'm getting this message when clicking the video link.

"This video contains content from UMPG Publishing, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds".

#5201 2 years ago
Quoted from rvdv:

Mag je goederen van je klant achterhouden totdat hij betaalt?
29 september 2015
Elke ondernemer heeft wel eens te maken met wanbetaling. Dat is frustrerend: jij hebt je diensten geleverd of reeds werk verzet, de klant betaalt uiteindelijk niet. Soms heb je echter nog eigendommen van de klant in je bezit, om welke reden dan ook. Logischerwijs denk je dan direct: ‘Hij krijgt niets terug, totdat hij betaald heeft.’
De vraag in dit artikel is dan ook: mag je als ondernemer de goederen van je klant achterhouden totdat de klant betaald heeft? Kan de klant zich op het standpunt stellen dat hij een eigendomsrecht heeft en dat hij op basis daarvan zijn spullen terug moet krijgen?
Dit artikel is vooral van belang voor ondernemers die goederen van hun klant ‘onder zich’ hebben. Denk aan de fietsenmaker die de fiets van een klant in zijn werkplaats heeft staan. Denk aan de stomerij die nog kleren van een klant heeft liggen. Het betreft dus geen goederen die nog aan de klant moeten worden geleverd, al gaat dit gedeelte over opschorting daar ook voor op.
Zodra er sprake is van het niet nakomen van verplichtingen door de klant, kun je als ondernemer ervoor kiezen om je verplichtingen op te schorten. Je komt dan pas je verplichtingen na zodra de klant het ook heeft gedaan. Dat kan ook indien je goede reden hebt om aan te nemen dat de klant zijn verplichtingen niet zal nakomen (maar er dus nog geen sprake is van een tekortkoming).
Het is van belang om je als ondernemer te realiseren dat er enkele uitzonderingen op deze mogelijkheid van opschorting bestaan. Twijfel je aan de toepasselijkheid van deze regels, dan is het verstandig om een jurist te raadplegen.
Hoe zit het dan met de klant die niet betaalt, maar zich beroept op zijn eigendomsrecht? Hij wil zijn fiets of zijn versgestoomde broek terug. Kan hij zich beroepen op het eigendomsrecht?
Het antwoord is (uiteraard) ontkennend. Met een beroep op het zogenaamde retentierecht, kun je als ondernemer ook een beroep op het eigendomsrecht laten afketsen. Kortom: eerst betalen, daarna pas afgifte van de zaak die je nog moet teruggeven.
Mocht je kosten hebben moeten maken om de zaak te behouden (je hebt bijvoorbeeld een garagebox moeten huren of je hebt onderhoudswerkzaamheden moeten doen om de zaak in goede staat te houden), dan kun je verwachten dat die kosten óók eerst betaald worden voordat je tot teruggave overgaat.
Daarnaast moet je opletten dat je het retentierecht op tijd inroept: geef je de goederen alvast terug en beroep je je dan nog op je rententierecht, dan ben je te laat. Het recht is namelijk geëindigd op het moment van teruggave, zelfs als de klant nog niet heeft betaald.
Mag je de goederen houden als de klant blijft weigeren te betalen?
Wanneer de klant zelfs na een aantal aanmaningen niet bereid blijkt om de rekening te betalen, kun je niet zomaar besluiten om de goederen te houden of te verkopen. Je zult dan de juridisch juiste weg moeten bewandelen.
Als er totaal niet wordt meegewerkt, zal dat een gang naar de rechter betekenen. Daar zal waarschijnlijk je beste keuze het vorderen van nakoming van de overeenkomst zijn (dus betaling van de overeengekomen prijs). Pas daarna kan het tot een verkoop van de achtergehouden goederen komen.
Betaalt je klant niet? Houd dan de zaken die je nog van hem hebt achter totdat hij wel heeft betaald. Betaalt hij nog steeds niet? Dan moet je naar de rechter.
Zit je met een probleem waar je zelf niet uitkomt? Laat het ons weten, dan bekijken wij wat we voor je kunnen doen.
Vermoeden dat klant niet zal betalen, wat nu?
Vermoeden dat klant niet zal betalen, wat nu?
27 december 2016
In "Ondernemingsrecht"
Klant betaalt niet: hoe zit het met incassokosten?
Klant betaalt niet: hoe zit het met incassokosten?
5 april 2016
In "Ondernemingsrecht"
Faillissement van klant aanvragen om factuur te incasseren?
Faillissement van klant aanvragen om factuur te incasseren?
11 april 2017
In "Beslag"
Juridische hulp nodig?
mr. B.G.N. (Bart) Gubbels - Advocaat
ondernemingsrecht, arbeidsrecht, contractenrecht
Time to contact the lawyers !!
( google translate the main text)

**Not my words but translated for everyone via Google and re-posted. I haven't read it yet.

""Can you keep your customer's goods until he pays?
September 29, 2015
Every entrepreneur has to deal with default. That's frustrating: you've delivered your services or have already done work, the customer does not pay at all. Sometimes, however, you still own property of the customer for any reason. Logically, you immediately think, "He will not get back until he has paid."
The question in this article is therefore: Can you keep your customer's goods until the customer has paid? Can the customer take the view that he has a right of ownership and that, on the basis of that, he has to get back his goods?
This article is especially important for entrepreneurs who have 'goods' from their customers. Think of the bicycle maker who has a customer's bike in his workplace. Think of the dry cleaner that still has clothes from a customer. Therefore, it does not include goods that have to be delivered to the customer, even though this section is subject to suspension.
Once there is a breach of obligations by the customer, you can choose as an entrepreneur to suspend your obligations. You will only get your obligations as soon as the customer has done so. This may also be if you have good reason to believe that the customer will not fulfill his obligations (but there is no shortcoming yet).
It is important that you as an entrepreneur realize that there are some exceptions to this possibility of suspension. If you doubt the applicability of these rules, it is advisable to consult a lawyer.
What about the customer who does not pay, but relying on his ownership? He wants to get his bike or his pants back. Can he rely on property rights?
The answer is (of course) negligent. With the application of the so-called retention right, you can also make an appeal to property rights as an entrepreneur. In short: first pay, then only issue of the case you have to return.
If you have to make costs to keep the case (for example, you have to rent a garage box or you have to do maintenance work to keep the case in good condition) then you can expect that these costs will be paid before you get back Passes.
In addition, you must pay attention to the retention right on time: If you return the goods, then you will still be entitled to your interest rate right then you will be late. The right has been terminated at the time of refund, even if the customer has not yet paid.
Can you keep the goods if the customer refuses to pay?
If the customer does not seem willing to pay the bill even after a few orders, you can not decide to keep or sell the goods. You will have to walk the legally correct road.
If no action is taken, this will mean a corridor to court. There will probably be your best choice to claim compliance with the agreement (ie payment of the agreed price). Only after that can it be a sale of the retarded goods.
In short
Does your customer not pay? Then keep the things you have left of him until he has paid. Is not he still paying? Then you have to go to court.
Do you have a problem that you do not get? Let us know then we will see what we can do for you.
Suppose that customer will not pay what now?
Suppose that customer will not pay what now?
December 27, 2016
In "Company Law"
Customer does not pay: what about collection fees?
Customer does not pay: what about collection fees?
April 5, 2016
In "Company Law"
Request bankruptcy to collect invoice?
Request bankruptcy to collect invoice?
April 11, 2017
In "Beslag"
Need legal assistance?
Mr. B.G.N. (Bart) Gubbels - Lawyer
Business law, labor law, contract law
B.g.n.gubbels @
Time to contact the lawyers !!
(Google translate the main text)
Google Translate for Business:Translator ToolkitWebsite Translator

#5204 2 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

Interessant. Maar hoe zit het als je als klant (DP) een product besteld bij een fabrikant (ARA), een prijs overeenkomt en de fabrikant ineens meer geld wil?

I'm not certain, but this seems naughty to me. - Is there a Dutch Moderator in the house?

#5209 2 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

Interessant. Maar hoe zit het als je als klant (DP) een product besteld bij een fabrikant (ARA), een prijs overeenkomt en de fabrikant ineens meer geld wil?

"Interesting. But what about if you buy a product from a manufacturer (ARA), a price, and the manufacturer suddenly wants more money?"

#5255 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Notice that when Andrew ran out of money, he bowed out and allowed the company to carry on without him.

Did he bow out or was he forced out. I believe the latter.

#5257 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Either way, he made the choice to relinquish control rather than have the company go titsup completely.

Sorry Larry but I don't follow your logic. Being forced out by majority investors is not a choice. He may have made choices on his way out the door but those were most likely choices of self interest.

This is what I believe happened.

#5259 2 years ago

No time or desire to argue my friend. I'm off on the town to get twisted with some friends.
We can agree to disagree.

1 week later
#5541 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

They can't do it. Don't have the skills.

At least they didn't make an exit plan last September and begin a Hydrofoil company.

#5570 2 years ago

During the brief Pintasia agreement with Jpop, at least one Magic Girl and a few RAZA spots were quietly sold behind the scenes. And other spots were sold prior to delivery from American Pinball that no one heard about at the time.

I'm glad Rarehero got his money no matter how it was done. I hope others find a remedy also.

#5634 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

But at some point I gotta quit thinking with my flippers and start thinking with my coin mech.

You just made my day. Thanks man.

#5728 2 years ago

Jesus, and I thought our government bureaucrats were trying to kill independent business and entrepreneurship.

#5805 2 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

The bartender replies," me too, but I didn't think he'd do it again"

Something tells me there's a hidden "Pre-order" joke in that.

3 months later
#6180 1 year ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Maintenance would be a primary concern.
I would simply not trust the "Guts" of the machine.

It's all P-ROC so little to worry about there.

#6280 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

And Nitro and CT will not easily put their money at stake without seeing and knowing more as all of us. They see future in DP and this should mean something for all of us. This

I respect and trust Nitro and CT and in no way wish to portray them badly here.

But the seeing and knowing more than us really amounts to whatever the manufacture tells them. Consider that CT is and has been taken a beating from some people in the Alien thread for mistakes, delays, misunderstandings or not keeping promises. In my opinion its not fair to them as I believe they were only passing along the assurances they were told from a desperate Heighway Pinball.

Also consider the legitimate and once respected cabinet marking company who publicaly stood up for SkitB in the Preditor mess. He trusted what he was told and is now embroiled in the lawsuit.

Even honesty and good intentions can implode caused by life and unforseen events.

For the record I believe Dutch Pinball is trying their very best and I lean slighly optomistic at this time.

#6343 1 year ago

I have game #20 and the music is true to the original soundtracks and it is spectacular. The best sound system ever in my opinion with top notch reproduction songs. Bad mouthing the sound is a holdover from when people heard DP couldn't get the licence.

As far as code is concerned it's very good and better than many Sterns. The video that was posted in this thread a few days ago is my machine. The video is over two hours long and the 3 person crew that played and recorded it absolutely loved the game play.

And go ahead and discount DP concerning future code if you like. (I don't, but no matter.)
After some of the home brew guys get a hold of this P-ROC system it will game over.

#6352 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

A Knox Harrington video mode would be kind of awesome.

Knox giggling uncontrollably when you drain to quickly.

m7IJhHDm (resized).jpg

#6364 1 year ago

Has anyone pre-ordered or know of anyone that has ordered TBL 2.0 recently? I'm not talking about Early Achievers but new blood during these difficult times.
I realise my question is kind of useless here but I'm curious about how many they might have on the books.
The higher price and completely changed environment has me wondering.

#6397 1 year ago

I don't know about the reset and that's the first I've become aware of them. I will be sending that link to DP for them to review.

#6410 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I don't know about the reset and that's the first I've become aware of them. I will be sending that link to DP for them to review.

I heard back from Barry almost immediately and they are sending me the PROC fix kit. Outside of minor tweaks this has been the only issue my game has had and it's been rock solid for a year (?) now.

2 weeks later
#6507 1 year ago

He's a pinball slut. I won't be surprised to see him outed next for sexual misconduct.

2 months later
#6675 1 year ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Just saw this in the linked ads to alien thread.. are these equivalent?
I say no.. both are shaky companies, but all the proprietary stuff in an alien vs proc, bally/Williams parts in TBL. What say you?

I give him credit for being creative and smart but I think it foolish for anyone to take him up on the deal for the reasons you mentioned. Correct me if I'm wrong but last I saw, TBL's were selling in the 12-15000 range. And isn't pricing for a new TBL, if they ever get made, at $10,000?

Do I have those numbers correct or have things changed?

#6677 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Not sure I would call the inquiry foolish nor anyone interested in the trade. He was offering unobtainium toward unobtainium. Plus it was never listed as a straight up sale. Your numbers are correct on both and who knows, Maybe some day Someone will complete this dream theme but for now getting one may require some creative bait which is what the classified used. And for the record it worked and I played it! Awesome game!!! The only foolish deal in pinball is the one you never try!

Please read my comment again. I give him credit for making a smart and creative offer. But if you like, I will restate some of my words for you here:

**But I think it foolish "If I" were to take him up on the deal*

Quoted from Yelobird:

The only foolish deal in pinball is the one you never try!

Completely agree and I see no harm in his trying and I congratulate him. If I were in his situation, I would be attempting the same deal.

#6704 1 year ago

First of all, I think you have an overactive imagination and I'm not sure where you are coming up with such things. And your rant is so rambling its hard to answer anything. I'm not trying to be insulting but I'm assuming that you're a newbie in the hobby? I'll guess 2 or 3 years?

Quoted from Dkjimbo:

There is not going to be anyone willing to pay the same price, much less a premium price for an older, non-supported version of the game.

Where has it been reported the older version will not be supported? Thats bullshit. It "is" support and its bascialy a P-ROC system. And I'm guessing you will need to Google P-ROC now to educate yourself.

Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Maybe DP will send out all new playfields to original customers?

Under what possible circumstances would a whole new playfield be needed? Because of different boards? Wow....

Quoted from Dkjimbo:

We have seen lots of reports of problems with the boards...bad USB ports triggering issues,

Where are all of these reports? There were some general issues in the beginning but I haven't seen anything in months here. Last I checked, the DP tech help webpage has been dead with no one reporting issues.

The only issue I've personally had in over a year(?) ownership was some buffering and DP sent me a P-ROC kit for it.

Quoted from Dkjimbo:

the one at Sunshine Laundromat in NYC has been down for months from what I hear with no way to fix it.

Who did you hear this from? Did you just exaggerate that entire statement or do you have some proof? Especially the no way to fix it part.
I'll just go ahead and call bullshit now as Sunshine Laundry is in NYC and you live in Charlotte, NC.

Quoted from Dkjimbo:

They all amount to basically prototypes.

Cool! Prototypes have way more value to collectors. Another item you seem to be unaware of.

Man, there is so much wrong with what you posted I only tackled what I could in one outing.

#6710 1 year ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Thanks for "taking it easy on me" since I'm a newbie apparently. I am fully aware of and familiar with P-ROC thank you. I understand you have a TBL so this train of thought is upsetting to you so lets get specific since you cant grasp the conversation at a higher level and resort to insults and so forth. Here's a specific example. Main Street Amusements TBL went down and sat dormant for many weeks...why? They couldn't figure it out, DP tech support was useless. Then they figured out it was a bad USB socket and had to replace it - game is back in business. This is all well documented on "this flippin podcast" about a year ago". So an end-user needed to do soldering work on a board and self-diagnose the issue. Thankfully those guys obviously know their shit and can handle such repairs. I expect to have to troubleshoot and repair machines myself each time I buy one. I have the tools and resources to do so. But if I'm buying a brand new game? Unacceptable. On a brand new game failures of that nature are inexcusable and should be taken care of immediately by the manufacturer/distributor...not end users...see Stern's node board replacement program for an example of that playing out the right way in reality...this isn't rocket science.
End users of brand new highly complex games, I don't care if the format is some open source format like P-ROC, should NOT have to deal with problems and repairs like that on their own. Period. Others then reported here on Pinside similar issues any symptoms. It's all out there if you take a look.
As far as Sunshine is concerned a local guy in the pinball community here was up there within the last 2 weeks and apparently spoke to the owner or at least one of the staff and got that feedback as to why and how long TBL has been down. Sure, that's second (third?) hand info but if its false then let Sunshine Laundromat come in here and explain in more detail.
And the playfield comment - I guess sarcasm is lost on you...again I get this is touchy as an owner but lets try to keep it real. If your big main board loses function in any way - then what? Do you expect DP to stock replacements of defunct and discontinued boards to replace yours? OR are you expecting them to have some sort of retrofit kit available to take that board out and replace it with the new series of smaller boards? What sort of holistic wiring changes might be involved in that? Likely a few...I don't know for sure but I doubt this is all "plug and play" replacements.
Relax man, it could be worse, you could own a Magic Girl that will plummet in value if Deep Root gets off the ground and delivers their "Cadillac machine for Kia prices"
I am still waiting for anyone to explain the position of how they would argue their ARA TBL is worth $15k when and if this Chinese model does become reality. The "collectors" looking to spend top dollar just for exclusivity on an outdated version are harder and harder to find....anyone see AFM and MB prices lately? Hell MBr isn't even "official" and they are selling like hotcakes well under 10k now...

Dude, you have zero credibility with me. None.

Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Relax man, it could be worse, you could own a Magic Girl that will plummet in value if Deep Root gets off the ground and delivers their "Cadillac machine for Kia prices"

Relax man, I sold Magic Girl to Kaneda and I never even touched the box.

1 week later
#6750 1 year ago

The only issue I've ever had was the buffering which seems to be fixed after installing the P-ROC kit. I intend to have another Big Lebowski party for local Pinsiders so we can marathon test it again.

1 week later
#6769 1 year ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

If anyone has guilt it’s me, this was not the way things were supposed to happen! RTR the day you get your game will be a day that I also celebrate!

I agree. RTR has been a class act during a long and difficult time.
And of course I wish the best for everyone waiting on the their machines.

3 weeks later
#6843 1 year ago

Deleted my snarky comment.
...changes in attitude, changes in latitude.

#6854 1 year ago

From DP

Welcome to another update on the status of the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.

The coming weeks are quite exciting as we are nearing the final phase for production to start. We expect the last paperwork to be ready next week and then we have green light to start production. This means parts can be ordered, the production line is being prepared as well as all the work instructions, drawings and many other details that are needed for assembly. In the previous update we said we expect production to begin April/May, this has changed a little bit, and we now expect it to be May/June.

In the last update we also told you that Engineering Sample no. 4 was almost on its way to our HQ. A week later the game arrived without any damage. And even more important: the game worked perfectly!

We also came across this very cool video tutorial of the Big Lebowski™ Pinball from Bowen Kerins which shows you it will be worth the wait. This game will be yours:

We will come with a new update in a few weeks, or when there’s other significant news.

P.S. There is a rumor that Barry was hit by a car. Fortunately this is not true. Barry is fine

Barry and Jaap

#6856 1 year ago
Quoted from JimB:

Nice update

Good one Jim, nice edit. Pinside said I beat you by 4 seconds.

#6858 1 year ago

New ones are $10,000 now. Check with Cointaker or Nitro.

#6882 1 year ago

If you received a machine you may have been dropped off from the newsletter list. I reached out and requested to be put back on.

#6888 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Surprised their suit against DP has not been filed yet.

Or the other way around but I agree it is a mystery why lawsuits have not been filed. I know laws are different in Europe but here in the states they would have gone nuclear by now. In some countries the loser pays the oppositions legal fees etc.
Did both sides decided it's not worth the cost or the chance and this will be a stalemate in perpetuity? I'm really curious about it all.

#6890 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Well one big reason - no money, but if Investor Big decides he likes #5 and the final numbers, they'll be allowed to kiss his ring and the big wheels will start to move.

Do they have an investor or anyone looking at them?

3 weeks later
#6966 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

Can anyone confirm the investment rumor?

Quoted from Rockytop:

From what I’ve heard on other threads, I thought for sure there would be some posts here about that.

It's an important question as I have learned to not trust Pinside at all in situations like this. And DP needs to make an announcement to restore faith if it's true.

1 week later
#7016 1 year ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Played this pin at TPF not worth waiting for at all. So many good game out there.

I'm certain that the people who are out their money with no game right now, find great comfort in your opinion.

#7058 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

I don't understand the down votes.

It's because his opinion of the game is irrelevant to the dire situation the pre-paid people are in. Not to mention insensitive as those people are stuck and cannot get their money out and most have tried. His follow up comment was just as ignorant and so is yours.

Quoted from frankmac:

Sorry, just being truthful. I did not hold a gun to anyone's head. I also did not take there money. I don't put my money out of pocket until i see the product.
Just saying...

Quoted from Roostking:

This pin is on life support and there are many new pins from reputable companies. If they get their shit together then get back in, but at this point, if you can get your money back, I would..

Dutch Pinball began taking deposits in 2013 at the height of the pre-orders madness. No one predicted this mess at the very beginning and some 50 machines have been delivered. A lot of lessons have been learned by the community with Jpop, Predator and now Heighway screwing the pre-order people.

Today, armed with that hindsight, armchair quarterbacks fly in and basically tell everyone how stupid they were and the implication is how superior they are to them.

Again, Dutch Pinball began taking deposits in 2013. I see you were a newbie to Pinside in 2013 and Frankmac joined Pinside much later in 2015.
Maybe the two of you should thank some of the people you benefit from rather than judge them from your high horse and state the obvious.

#7066 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

My mistake, I wasn't aware that things had turned around, do you have some links of the unboxing and game play vids? And hindsight is a very valuable thing. In hindsight, Predator, jpop, aliens etc appears to be a road map for what's going to happen here.

Thank you for the thoughtful, considerate reply and not going all Hilton on me. You have my sincere respect for understanding and rolling with a punch.

Quoted from Roostking:

Oh, to be young again, right Mr. 68!!

Only in regards to having a target range for the ladies, age 35 to 45. Otherwise, I'm not so sure I would want the trade off to be young again.

#7141 1 year ago

Someone can set up a secret Facebook group and as administrator that person can control who joins or not. Non-members will not be able to read the group or even find it in a search.

You will need some kind mechanism to screen people into the group. The group I did for Jpop, I had the victims scan a page of their unique Zidware contract to me showing their name etc. Some people here we already know are involved such as Highdef and RTR whom I recommend as administrator or co-administrators. And trust me, you will need to screen people as I spent a lot of hours refusing half of Pinside pretending just to gain access.

Anyone interested can shoot me a PM for a heads up on what to expect. I know this sounds simple, and it is, but you would be surprised at some of the shit that went down during the entire process. "A lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you's".

I just recently closed the Jpop group with a brief explanation and picture you can read at this link:


#7143 1 year ago
Quoted from jpk1972:

I was thinking more along the lines of maybe getting people together via gotomeeting or skype to discuss.

Do as you wish and those could be additional tools to use in conjunction. But the FB group allows people to post and participate as their personal time permits. Gathering people internationally is problematic and time consuming for an ongoing discussion.

#7234 1 year ago
Quoted from kklank:

On a positive note, maybe they'll give those last three (was it three?) prototypes to the next 3 Early Achievers in line. That would be sweet.
I mean, what is going to come of those last few Japanese prototypes out there. Anybody know?

That’s a nice thought but realistically we only need look to Heighway Pinball in how they disposed of inventory at the end.

#7277 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Have everyone sign a volunteer list to send ARA a 1K bump to release their games. ALL must be in or sell the other hold out positions with the bump.

Both companies are frozen from doing anything independent during litigation.

#7284 1 year ago
Quoted from brainmegaphone:

How do you know this? What is this statement based on? Companies operate under litigation all the time. The only thing that stops them is an injunction and no one (even DP) claims one of those exists.

It's my assumption based on experience. Neither ARA nor Dutch Pinball can transfer those Lebowski machines as they are in dispute. Please read the post I was responding to. I may have worded my comment poorly and unintentionally mislead you.

If European law allows ARA to sell those games during litigation, independent of DP, I'll gladly be corrected and completely surprised.

#7300 1 year ago
Quoted from cooked71:

AFAIK, DP owe ARA for the original shipment of 50 games, plus the 40 that are still sitting in their warehouse. At the very minimum they get authority to liquidate what’s sitting in the warehouse.

No, they don't have authority at all. Those machines are DP's property right now and ARA cannot sell that which is not theirs. Yes, they have possession but not that right. A court determination will need to be made on how to proceed. Which they are just now in the initial legal phase of.

#7310 1 year ago

Even with a court ruling it would be problematic for ARA to sell those games due to the licensing agreement. Dutch Pinball owns that agreement and I highly doubt it would be transferable. Worth noting the license is likely expired or soon to be.
I'm not sure what ARA's end game is here but taking ownership of those machines will not come without consequences.

#7313 1 year ago

Its an open question and I don't know how those contracts are structured. I'm sure there are variables that are negotiated from deal to deal. Heighway Pinball got the rights to Alien but no Sigourney Weaver in likeness or voice.

I'm just questioning the status of the license. Has it expired? Is it transferable? None of us know.

Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

What I'm wondering is, does an agreement specify who has to sell the game? Doesn't seem like who sells it would matter.

I'm not sure if I follow your comment but yes, it would matter. That's the purpose of buying/selling the license and abiding by its terms.

#7319 1 year ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

However this preorder model is probably against license conditions

I find that interesting.

Thanks for insight on all of this.

#7351 1 year ago

I hate to even whisper optimism at this point but the legal posturing will get everyone back to negotiations and a deal could be struck outside the courtroom. I would not let expectations get carried away however.

#7416 1 year ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

I retired from a major CM. When a project went sour all specialized tooling was scrapped for surplus. Any Trademark items we didn't hold the rights to were destroyed. All remaining parts were auctioned/ scrapped/destroyed.
A class-action suit from all pre-pays staking a claim on remaining machines/parts is the only choice.
Without a singular cohesive voice from those who allowed and made the first machines happen through pre-payment ARA will be forced to destroy any plastics, glass, cabinets and play fields displaying copyrighted artwork.

Thank you. Without my having direct knowledge, this is the concern I was fumbling with a couple of days ago about ARA's inability to simply selling those machines.

#7497 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

DP is/was hoping for a deus ex machina moment, but so far to no avail.

From Wikipedia: "Deus ex machina (Latin) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and seemingly unlikely occurrence, typically to the point of being perceived as a contrived plot point. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device".

I had to look it up and thought I'd share. (Well done RT)

#7500 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

What was the second game?

Experts of Dangerous. Licensed by the two guys from Mythbusters.

zzzz newgameroundup1 (resized).jpg

#7552 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

The more I read this Thread the more I realize... Nobody Knows Shit!

It's human nature and cathartic for people to express themselves in difficult times. Personally, I'm impressed with many of the insightful comments posted by some very intelligent people as they dissect past events and speculate on the future.

Quoted from iceman44:

Phil did, early on.

Phil was guessing back then and only seems knowledgeable in hindsight.

#7652 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

email exchanges can be interpreted to have the same force as a contract, can't they?

Not really. The emails could be used as corroborative evidence which is what I think you're trying to say.

#7676 1 year ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

Not sure if I am ready to send them money, but this is a strategic maneuver to avoid a fight they will most likely loose.

Send who money and for what?

4 weeks later
#7850 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Auction for the Sample Game has closed.

Where can we follow this?

#7852 1 year ago

I was hoping there would be some follow up on details. I suppose not though...

Thanks, Rensh.

2 weeks later
#7907 1 year ago

I can confirm Rensh's comment, the Gofund is not a setup from DP.

#7934 1 year ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

Source please.
Who are the seven?
Are you a member of the seven, and is that how you can make your assertions?

I was asked to join the group after a brief introduction and I know of its founding member. This was a few months ago and I was getting ready to list my TBL for sale. I told him at that time, that I felt my presence under those circumstances might seem inappropriate and make some people uncomfortable. I respectfully declined.

#7936 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

They should make themselves known. This schtick isn't cute...hiding behind movie nicknames, making stupid videos, asking for money & and calling ARA "nihilists" is just ridiculous considering people have lost lots of money & don't trust anyone involved with DP at this point.
If they are serious about this working out, full transparency...no more games.

That's not my call as I'm sure you realise.

#7963 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

I Highly doubt Highdef got a refund. I PM'd him a couple of times for details/insight. He has now inactivated his account.

Holy shit. I respected Highdef and I found him intelligent and credible. To learn he's been a poser after all of these months is very disappointing.

#7966 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

I think Pinside put him on a vacation after something he posted attacking another member who was attacking him via PM. He did get a refund. It is not for me to share the proof, but he did get a refund.

His profile shows, "This account has been deactivated voluntarily by its owner".

No matter, I hope he did get his refund but I'm skeptical by his not returning emails and not helping others if he did.

#8011 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

I'm starting to wonder, beyond the EAs that are owed games, just how much of a market is left for this game. Can they still sell hundreds to generate the profit they need?

I realise that not everyone is happy with me for selling my TBL, but now that existing machines are selling for 20K, you better believe there is a market for them. If Chicago Coin remakes Big Bang Bar as rumored, those games will fly off the shelf to new buyers and there is a lot of similarities between the two.

While I'm pessimistic of Dutch Pinball's survival at this junction, these high prices could be used as a big selling point to attract investors or possibly motivate DP-ARA to settle.

#8019 1 year ago
Quoted from RTS:

There is no evidence that a large market exists for these games at $20k+.

While I can agree in general, I find that a surprising conclusion you've leapt to. (No offense).

DP has already priced additional TBL games at 10K through Cointaker if they can get their shit together. The psychology of buying a 20K machine for half price will have people lining up to buy.

#8023 1 year ago
Quoted from RTS:

I completely agree with your assessmentt regarding the psychology of a $10k price seeming like a discount. We're together on that.
I misunderstood your first comment about the $20k price. I thought you were suggesting there was a large demand at that price, which I don't believe is true.
The $20k+ prices were due to the scarcity and represent less supply, not necessarily more demand.

We are agreed then.
This is our second misunderstanding on Pinside and the first one was my mistake. You sir, are a gentleman to deal with.

#8115 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

He was already working on this so over the next few days. All the EA interested in sorting the shit out let’s get together in this forum to discuss what we can do.

The way it works is that the OP adds who they want in the forum. Please could EAs send me their name and proof of being an EA.. maybe your True Serial Email..

The private Jpop group that we formed allowed a couple of outsiders to join. I selected them for various reasons and their unbiased council was valuable and still appreciated by me today. (Thanks again, Bruce)
I would suggest that your group consider asking Rubberducks to join based on his knowledge and past comments in this thread and elsewhere on Pinside. I only know him from this forum but I have learned to highly regard his well reasoned thoughts and you may agree.

The group is a great idea and I wish you all the very best.

#8161 1 year ago

I'm still on DP's mailing list but I will keep it confidential for you guys. Agreed it will probably still get out but it won't be from me.

That said, I think it's the best newsletter to date for the Early Achievers and I am very encouraged about DP's future after being pessimistic in the recent past. Fuk the trolls, this is excellent and realistic stuff.

#8224 1 year ago
Quoted from tacshose:

now that I understand the rules and limits of what you can discuss, I’m pretty sure you will fuck it up and this bad pinside idea will go away soon.

I don't see the subcategory listed and I assume it was designed to be hidden. Could you or someone explain how this private group will operated? Is there a link to how these groups will operate in general? What are the rules and limits?
Just curious. Thanks

5 months later
#8549 8 months ago

Personally, I view this as positive news for Barry, Japp and the early archives. If the EA's want me to no longer post content such as this, let me know but I don't see the harm in sharing. In fact, I think it helps the cause against the "know it all" critics.


Dear Kim,

We found out that lawsuits take a lot of time in the Netherlands. The story with ARA goes on and on and is still not finished. Here is a recap of what happened:

We (Barry, Jaap and our attorney) were invited to a court hearing on December 5th and we and ARA could both tell our side of the situation. This week, we received a temporary verdict. It says that the court advises ARA and us to sit down and discuss to see if we can come to an agreement.

The Dutch words are (quoted from the courts letter):

“…tot een gezamenlijke afwikkeling van hun samenwerking te komen. De rechtbank wil partijen daartoe nadrukkelijk oproepen en in de gelegenheid stellen voordat een eindbeslissing wordt gewezen.”

(Maybe Google translate can help you to understand what the Dutch court is saying)

Our next steps will be to investigate if we can come to a settlement. We hope you will understand that we can’t give any more details. As soon as we have a final verdict or a solution we will let you know.

We never realized that we would end up in a courtroom when we started to design the most beautiful pinball machine and we are sorry that we dragged you into this situation. We are very, very grateful for your continuous support!

If we have news that we can share we will let you know.

Regards, Barry and Jaap

PS Jaap’s cancer is gone! The radiation- and chemotherapy were successful and Jaap is now working on his recovery.

#8574 8 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Totally understand that but lets be honest here - DP has broke the law. They have taken your money and many others and squandered it and not delivered the product you are contractually owed. There is no "grey area" here. Its pretty friggin clear. They have committed fraud. Period. They fraudulently obtained your money and you have a slam dunk case against them. Frankly the case of the EA's vs DP is even stronger and more slam dunk than whatever ARA's suit suggests!
I know nothing of the Dutch legal system but any legal system in any developed and civilized country must have a way to file a complaint without a major heavy lift or heavy expense. Filing a complaint (or whatever they call it in their system) would initiate a process and FORCE DP to have to start to come clean here. Why do you think ARA sued them? They had to force their hand. Is there not some method in their legal system where you can file a complaint and get a judge to issue a subpoena for documents and/or in person appearance? To simply get that far can't be that much an expense. Especially when hundreds of thousands of dollars have been STOLEN. This is so black and white in terms of the EA's being victimized here there should be absolutely no objection.

Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Ok so enlighten us. It might help to get other points of view and bring in other resources to the cause but go ahead and enlighten us. How is it not that simple? They purported to have a product ready for manufacture and delivery and accepted payments from hundreds of folks in full for said product. They engaged in a written legally binding contract with you to provide that product at a date in the future from time of payment in lieu of providing the product on the spot. They - for a variety of circumstances that really don't matter in the end - have not provided you the product nor have they provided a refund. Lets look at the textbook definition of Fraud.
"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."
They may chose to argue that this wasn't deception but that is a very weak position... the facts show how they repeatedly erroneously spent money, LIED TO YOUR FACE REPEATEDLY TO HIDE FACTS, and ultimately didn't even pay their vendors. it seems your case is far stronger than theirs...

Good grief, another wannabe Pinside lawyer. - Tell us where you got your law degree counselor. Was it from television or a bar stool?

1 month later
#8653 7 months ago
Quoted from Londonpinball:

Lots of these games listed in the last 30 days,
Maybe the guys in the inner circle ⭕️ know more then they say . Maybe insider trading ?

So random customers, all strangers to one another and spread around the globe, have an inner circle preparing for this day? And you guys believe proprietary information is secretly being leaked so they can hoodwink unsuspecting buyers?

That's an fanciful conspiracy you got there.

#8671 7 months ago
Quoted from Londonpinball:

Lots of these games listed in the last 30 days,
Maybe the guys in the inner circle ⭕️ know more then they say . Maybe insider trading ?

So if it's not true, does this mean the Lebowski secret inner circle of seller's were fed bad intel from their Overlords?

I really wish people would take a deep breath before jumping to obvious conclusions. Some of you guys set speed records in connecting erroneous dots and you carelessly smear innocent people in the process.

I've seen these accusations of insider trading going all the way back to the original Medieval Madness remake announcement. I myself was accused of it when I sold my Magic Girl spot. And I've seen these same allegations 3 or 4 different times now with Big Bang Bar whenever a few go up for sale.

Sorry to single you out, Londonpinball. You're not the first here to do it nor will you be the last.

#8678 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

What if ARA is selling the hostage games... while the lawsuit between ARA & Dutch is not resolved?

Because ARA would be in contempt of court in doing so.

#8680 7 months ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

Not necessarily, the court ordered ARA and Dutch Pinball to "figure it out" on their own to start.. Since we're all speculating, what if the compromise included selling the existing inventory?

Any compromise has to be court approved long before any action can take place. Those machines are frozen assets until the courts say otherwise.

#8687 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

ARA sued DP - not the other way around. Why would ARA's own assets be frozen when a resolution could simply be "you owe us contractually obligated money" or money for other services?

Holy shit Flynn, I'm struggling to understand your point.

Quoted from flynnibus:

ARA sued DP - not the other way around

Whoever initiated the lawsuit has nothing to do with the final resolution. What nonsense. A lawsuit was filed with the courts to determine a judgment of their dispute. Both companies now operate in this matter, under the complete supervision of the courts until a determination is made.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Why would ARA's own assets be frozen

Because those machines are not ARA's assets. Where did you get that idea? Dutch Pinball has intellectual property, licencing and money in them too.

Quoted from flynnibus:

a resolution could simply be "you owe us contractually obligated money" or money for other services?

Congratulations, Flynn, you've just characterize the basis of the lawsuit.

#8689 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Point being.. the item in contention is a monetary thing... not necessarily unique items. If ARA were compelled to owe delivery of a TBL game.. it doesn't
necessarily have to be one that was built back in 2017. It's an obligation they could fulfill many different ways. It could also simply be resolved with $$.
Obviously handing over a previously built example is easier if it were on hand - but that is not basis for freezing an asset. There are important distinctions between items ARA did for themselves, or things they did on behalf of someone else. If I sell you a promise of building you a house... and we go into a dispute.. you don't freeze the toilet I bought and still have sitting on my warehouse shelves. I just owe you a toilet or some agreed upon equivalent if I lost.
There might have been basis to freeze the disputed assets if DP sued earlier on for non-execution or breech of contract... but again, DP didn't sue.

A toilet analogy instead of a cargument? - Good luck with your typical razzle dazzle response. I had a lapse and forgot how you are.

#8699 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Things that not contingent on what assets ARA has or not. ARA's benches, tools, and everything else used to make the games aren't going to be frozen over a dispute to get paid for their work.

Where the hell did I ever say that! And your comment is nonsensical to the existing lawsuit.

Let me clarify it for you in terms you might comprehend along with thread documentation. -- Those **Big Lebowski Pinball Machines** would be (are) frozen by the courts.**
You know, the pinball machines that you believe for some ridiculous reasons are ARA assets that they could just simply sell.

Try and follow along here Flyn:

Quoted from flynnibus:

What if ARA is selling the hostage games... while the lawsuit between ARA & Dutch is not resolved?

Quoted from Mr68:

Because ARA would be in contempt of court in doing so.

Quoted from knockerlover:

Not necessarily, the court ordered ARA and Dutch Pinball to "figure it out" on their own to start.. Since we're all speculating, what if the compromise included selling the existing inventory?

Quoted from Mr68:

Any compromise has to be court approved long before any action can take place. Those machines are frozen assets until the courts say otherwise.

How you made the leap from that to ARA company and personal assets is beyond me. But this is what you do on Pinside, Flynnibus. You twist and spew mumbo jumbo, you obfuscate, you dodge and filibuster all of us into submission.

#8710 7 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

But this is what you do on Pinside, Flynnibus. You twist and spew mumbo jumbo, you obfuscate, you dodge and filibuster all of us into submission.

I forgot to mention how Flynnibus always has to have the last word.

1 month later
#8790 5 months ago

Thanks Bryan.

Quoted from mcbPalisade:

Just saw this, is it a one-off or produced in some numbers? It does have flippers...
[quoted image]

For further explanation and pictures, here's a link to my Pinside post.


1 month later
#8868 4 months ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Aren’t those $1k cointaker deposits fully refundable to this day? Why sell a spot at face value when you could just refund it for the same amount with less hassle? Only way the transaction makes sense is if people are selling fully paid (and nonrefundable due to insolvency) EA spots at a deep discount.

I think they're buying fully paid for spots at $1K. That's a value gamble in my book.

1 month later
#8934 3 months ago

"Dear Kim,

It has been a while since our last update, for which I apologize. There have been a lot of things going on. I will try to address everything in this update below.

First of all, I'd like to address the health of my colleague and dear friend Jaap. As you all know, last year Jaap was diagnosed with, treated for, and then cured of cancer. Unfortunately, a couple of months ago, a new scan showed the disease was back. The new scan showed multiple metastases, and the doctors indicated there is nothing they can do at this point. I won't go into all the details, but you will understand I was, and still am, devastated by this news. I really can't describe how much this sucks.

Following this awful news, Jaap and I discussed what we would do with Dutch Pinball and his involvement as an associate. We decided that it would be in Jaap's best interest to step away from the company to avoid a complicated situation in the future. The paperwork for this was taken care of last month, and now Jaap is no longer (officially) involved with Dutch Pinball.


I know you are all waiting to hear the verdict of the court case with ARA. Unfortunately, the judge ruled in favor of ARA... Now, I can go on and on with details why the judge decided this and how much this sucks, etc... But right now, this is what it is, and besides going in appeal against this ruling, we can't do anything about it. I have discussed all the details with my attorney and the time it would take to go into appeal. He told me it could easily take another year(!). [...] Waiting another year after all this time is really too much for me right now. After all things that have happened and also the terrible news about Jaap made me decide to try something else to figure out this debacle... So once again I've tried to come up with a solution to settle things with ARA and finally get this over with. I contacted the person involved directly - without attorneys - and after a long discussion and some negotiations we have - for the first time in years - reached an agreement!

As you will all agree, this is great news. But there are still some things to take care of before we are completely out of the woods. The settlement we agreed upon means that we have to pay off ARA, and in return we will receive everything Dutch Pinball related that ARA has stored in their warehouse: A number of finished and unfinished games and the complete inventory of parts. Besides that, the court case will be voided and this means there will be no more legal issues that prevent us from continuing our business and start building games again; first The Big Lebowski™ Pinball of course, and hopefully many more beautiful games in the future!

One of the most important things to make Dutch Pinball a viable business again is liquidity. The only way to get things moving again, is to deliver Early Achiever games parallel to selling new games to customers. I know this means you still have to wait a bit longer, but it also means that - against all odds - you will receive your game. Along with my accountants I am working on a prognosis/forecast how long it will take to do this and our first calculations are very positive. At this point I can't give the exact planning yet, but as soon as I do, I will communicate this. I understand this is not the most ideal solution for EA's, but otherwise Dutch Pinball would most certainly go bankrupt, which would inevitably have resulted in nobody getting a game.

From now on I will send out updates more regularly. I really am very sorry for the lack of updates the last couple of months. I hope with what you have read above, that you have a little bit more understanding for this.

Thanks for the continuing support and for your incredible patience.


#8963 3 months ago

New machine prices are $12,500.00.

#8972 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

The games never sold for more than $7.5k, right? So why guess a starting price so high?

The new price of $12,500 has been confirmed.

#9075 3 months ago
Quoted from VividPsychosis:

Here is a thought from someone smarter about these things than myself. How does 1 man. Gain access to these 40 pins and ship them out all by himself? He has no staff. No employees, etc...
Anyone care to enlighten me? I’m on board to help but getting sorta spooked on the whole thing.

ARA is motivated to get them out of their building and get paid.

#9262 3 months ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

What was the asking price for them from the distributors? If they sold out that fast they were under priced...

$12,500. includes freight in, freight to location, all import fees, fully insured.

#9327 3 months ago

Reading this thread for as long as I have now, seems like someone has nailed my left foot to the floor and I’m wondering why I keep walking around in a circle.

I hope some people will at least admire and respect the class, dignity and humor that many of the EA's have shown here now and over the years. And there are some EA’s that deserve credit just for biting their tongue and remaining silent.

As a veteran of the original pinball disaster, I know well the madness of an insensitive and broken record Pinside. I lost my cool so many times in the Jpop thread that I should have been fitted for a straight jacket.

Best wishes guys. I know its more than the loss of money or the game, it’s also the judgmental chipping away from Pinside that is so disheartening.

1 week later
#9453 85 days ago

I'm hesitant to even whisper optimism at this point, but investors or a company might take a second look after 40 machines just sold at 12.5K in a single day.

#9458 85 days ago
Quoted from whitey:

I think those games sold so quickly is because most buyers are thinking this is there only chance to own this game.

And many of those machines will be flipped in the $20K range giving potential investors even more food for thought. Also, I believe that Barry wants to make things right with the EA's and after losing in court, he probably wishes he had made that deal with ARA. If given a second chance with a new company or investor, he might not hold such a hard line in negotiating a deal.

I know a lot of people like to accuse Barry of bad intentions but my instincts tell me otherwise. I believe he's trying to save his company and salvage his reputation which is exactly what I'd be doing. The biggest unknown is, will he be successful. I hope so.

1 week later
#9530 77 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Does anyone have a link to the podcast done yesterday with Barry?

It was to have been done by Martin Ayub and Jonathan Joosten so my guess is it will be posted on the Pinball News web site when completed.

#9540 77 days ago

The 40 buyers of the ARA games are key to the EA's ever having a chance at restitution. And I'm glad they bought them to give this effort a chance. But let's not pretend they bought those games out of charity for others. They bought them out of self interest.

#9544 77 days ago

That's a question for Barry and hopefully his podcast will shed some light on it. I'm just hopeful that he finds a way and EA's will be taken care of.

Quoted from Roostking:

Nobody in their right mind is going to work with DP again.

Disagree. If games are boxed and sitting inside Cointaker or Nitro's warehouse for immediate shipping, they will sell and I think sell very well.

#9546 77 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

That's a question for Barry and hopefully his podcast will shed some light on it.

#9554 77 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Obviously people will buy the game if they have the opportunity, just not pre-order, for the most part.

I'm glad you agree with me.

Quoted from Mr68:

If games are boxed and sitting inside Cointaker or Nitro's warehouse for immediate shipping, they will sell and I think sell very well.

#9563 77 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Seems you misunderstood the big picture outlook that I meant, but yes, if they show up for sale, they will fly off the shelves. Problem is, nobody is going to work with DP and manufacture these pins. Sadly.. Cause i know 2 Instabuys.

No, I understood and I answered you the first time.

Quoted from Mr68:

That's a question for Barry and hopefully his podcast will shed some light on it.

#9574 76 days ago

It would seem from listening to that podcast that Dutch Pinball has been working with or negotiating with a venture capitalist or a financial institution for some time now. After DP explained their plans during final negotiations, it's my assumption that ARA agreed to take a lump sum from the sale of the 40 games and agreed to carry the balance owed. If my speculation is true, that's a smart compromise for both companies.

I'm not into making casual predictions like others are but right now it seems to soon to call this a dead situation.

#9577 76 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

I listened to the segment of the podcast about DP and basically you have one guy who's friends with Barry and who's been involved with it being really optimistic and telling some of what he knows but not all, and then his co-host who's more of an outsider to the situation listening to it all and saying he's still very skeptical, so while I think there's some good info in there, I think there's a lot of bias on the part of the reporter as he tries to make his friend sound like not such a bad guy.

Completely agree. And I was also reading between the lines of that podcast and that's why I was careful to qualify my comments.

#9585 76 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Where did you learn that all the profit from the 100 assembled games is needed to pay off ARA?

In the podcast it was stated that the 40 machines recently sold only partly covered what was owed to ARA.

#9664 75 days ago

5 Balls on the playfield and one in the bowling alley.

I posted a machine description and pictures of my game on the pinball database if anyone is interested.


#9673 75 days ago
Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:

Sorry I am not part of the total transparency of DP LMAO. If you are going on a verbal "we will have parts" from DP, well, good for you! They have an amazing track record of delivering on promises. If you have something of substance, ie, in writing, lets see it!
And I did have the opportunity to buy one of the 40, I had a deposit over 2 years ago with Cointaker... maybe you shouldn't post when you clearly don't have facts?
One of the things I have been told is that any new machines, if indeed produced, will have new boards and possibly new parts that are incompatible with the old games. So I think my concerns are valid.

It is my very strong guess that Cointaker is selling these machines "as is". And given the circumstances and history here, it certainly is implied these games come with no warranty. If I were a buyer this wouldn't even be a question.

#9682 75 days ago