Think about that statement.....has anyone ever known a lawyer to advise against litigating and telling someone to wait? Sounds more like a stall tactic. I am betting if you dig into this really deep, you will find DP is not the victim they play.

OK, you have me there....but I did have a Danish with a lawyer once....he made me buy......does that count? lol

And if the amount needed to get this moving again were just 1K per machine, the buyers would have already been hit up for the cash...especially for those already completed. The 1K figure is what DP originally said, but they have also shown they can't be trusted. There is a lot more to this story, and my guess is there is a lot more owed. ARA probably delivered a lot of machines on faith and a promise of money that never came.

Sure it is....I will willingly admit that with no argument. Pretty much this whole thread is speculation. But stand back and look at this from a distance and it makes perfect sense. 1K will not bail these machines out or either ARA or DP would have already went down that road. There is a lot more to this story and you are only hearing one side of this from folks that have already been caught lying to you. How can you trust anything they say?

I think you are mis-reading what I said. I am agreeing with you....as I said multiple times, there is a lot more to this story than any of us know at this point.

And maybe you are speculating it will increase in value if the rest of the dudes don't get theirs? lol In cases like this, one should never just shut up and wait things out.....that is a good way to be at the end of the line when/if there is anything to recover. Buyers should be doing everything they can to protect their interests at this point. If DP could be trusted, it might be different, but the only known facts are really who has money in this game, and the fact they were lied to by their supplier.

First off, I don't know what you expect from an open forum. People are going to comment, and if the requirement for each thread were actually having "skin in the game", then this would be an awfully empty place. I am sure you have commented on a thread you had no physical connection to somewhere along the line.

Other than a couple of folks being stupid, I don't think there was a lot of shaming going on. Some were offering valid suggestions. I think the lack of posts are people waiting to see what happens. This is a bad situation for everyone involved, and also for the industry as a whole. I can't think of anyone that does not want to see you all get your completed pins, and the latest bit of news is a good sign that maybe something will move off of center in the coming days. As I said, there are always going to be people with stupid and insensitive comments, but those were far into the minority of what was posted. I have no way to quantify this, but consider that maybe, just maybe, all of the posts and industry support contributed to the changes that took place. A few disgruntled customers discussing something are nowhere near as powerful as a large chunk of the industry voicing their opinion. And if you think DP and ARA don't pay attention to the forums, I would bet you are wrong.

I am sure I will get blasted for this because I have no TBL on order....but my interest is seeing you all get what you paid for, and another company making it in this industry. We need the variety and competition.

It will never happen, but viewing the new contract would probably explain a lot of the recent events and statements, and might even put some of the rumor and suspicion to rest.

There is also one possibility that folks need to consider as well, and I will admit it is a fiction born of my years as a detective, but the possibility does exist no matter how small.

ARA supposedly has several machines built, but they cannot sell them themselves due to the licensing. Now mind you, this is pure and absolute speculation, and if this were to happen, then DP would be a pile of crap......but what is to stop them from agreeing in the negotiations to have DP sell the completed machines to completely new buyers, therefore raising new capital to pay ARA what they are owed plus a few extra bucks for DP, and then the two walk away leaving all pre-paid investors holding the bag? ARA doesn't want machines in their warehouse they cant do anything with, and DP supposedly doesn't have money to get them out of hock. Barring any influx of outside cash, someone has to generate money somewhere, and the only thing that no one wants to keep are the games themselves. Even if they were to get the 50 completed games to the pre-paid customers, I don't think they would satisfy all of the debt, so whether you default on 1 or 50 is still a default. I am not trying to stir anything here, but there is always that possibility these guys are going to take the money and run....it has happened before.

I have no idea of international law, but if this were happening in the US, I would strongly advise those involved to seek a court order that bars the parties from disposing of any property until the whole matter is settled.

It's either that, or they need to find another investor willing to buy in for less than 51%

Who knows the motivation of an imaginary investor? I was just saying they need to find someone with cash who is willing to take a smaller percentage if they don't want to give ARA their 51%. Maybe they can find some rich widow that needs a tax break, or some dude that has more money than he knows what to do with and who really likes pinball. Stranger things have happened, and all it would take is for someone to convince an investor they will make money even at a smaller ownership percentage. I am sure there are millions of bad financial decisions made every day.......

That is a dangerous proposition. The decision makers then would basically be concentrating on profitability with really no responsibility or presence in the pinball market. They could stagnate the code, cut corners to make a cheaper product, etc. Of course the opposite could be true as well....they could make things much better, but my guess is you will get less for your dollar. It is a huge risk to give away 51% of anything as you are then basically along for the ride. Now if you can get two or three additional smaller investors and split up the stock so no one has a blind majority...then your risk would be easier to take.

Maybe because they have a ton invested in parts and development, and they aren't willing to just write all of that off. 51% allows them to call the shots....what to make, how to make it, and where they get shipped. They will try to turn this around and generate as much cash as they can and use up their stock of parts. If it works, they are the savior. If it doesn't, they can liquidate the company and get 51% of any assets that might exist. This is precisely why sugar-daddy investment firms demand control.....they are not doing it because they know more about the product. They do it because they assume the risk and can determine when it is time to cut losses and dump everything to get whatever they can back.

I'll admit I just scanned most posts as I can't keep up here, but anyone that thinks more games will ever be made by DP is crazy. I do feel bad for JAAP, but his former company is gone and people need to accept that.

ARA doesn't want these games in a warehouse, so I am sure they have worked out some sort of split with DP to get these games and parts sold. All of the claims about generating revenue to make the original buyers whole is pure crap. It has proven to be an unsustainable model time and time again. It is a pure cash grab, and DP needs a good cover to get dealers to purchase the games and to keep the original buyers from throwing burning dung on their door step. They have shown time and time again they cannot be trusted.

Now with that said, I am amazed at the rush of people to buy these games knowing others put out good money for them. I don't know if the original buyers would have any legal remedies, but they should surely be exploring the possibility. And while it is entirely legal for others to rush up to the sales counter....just ask yourselves how you would feel if the roles were reversed and you were one of the early buyers. Horrible Karma at the least.

Mostly though, I am really disappointed in the dealers and the attitude displayed regarding the situation. They know full well people got taken for a lot of money on these games, yet they are willing to just overlook that part of the issue and act like it doesn't matter. Aren't many of the early buyers your customers too? I am (or used to be) a huge fan of Cointaker.....but when you were asked about the early buyers and just replied that they would need to take that up with DP is unacceptable. This is a small industry, and small group that is like a family, and to just discard people that were wronged to "keep these games from going to the European market" is pure BS. It is a cash grab all of the way around....and the claims of "we aren't making much" are BS as well. "Much" is a relative term and really says nothing.

I was not an early buyer....I would have loved to have one of these games at one point, but I would never touch one now unless they were made completely by a different company. This whole deal stinks to high heaven, and I hope somehow the early buyers get made whole in all of this, but it won't be with any new startup of production. That will NEVER happen. There isn't enough money in 200 games to get that going, let alone 40.

All of this seems like going through your grandma's purse for cash after she passed away. Horrible....but I doubt anyone is going to lose any sleep over it. It is only pinball after all.

I hate it when people use that term..."strictly business", like it somehow excuses us from having any human compassion. In the end, we are going to be remembered/judged not by our business, but how we are as a human. People can do whatever they want and my opinion is just that....an opinion. But I for one will loose a ton of respect for those stepping over the early buyers.

As a medic, I once worked a case of a heart attack at a blackjack table. The woman fell off of her chair and the casino was crowded. As we were treating this woman, people were placing bets over the top of us because....hey, it was an open seat. I guess that was nothing personal either, but it was just as disgusting.

Makes no difference. If folks would stop tripping over themselves to lay down 12 grand for these, maybe ARA would be able to work something out with the early buyers. But DP having a hand in this and making one dollar is pure criminal in my books.

No doubt that is true, but not everyone is so forgiving. One person here and one person there...at some point it can add up, and with this small of a community we aren't talking thousands to make an effect. All I can control is me...…..

I wasn't referring to the loss of human life. I was referring to people's greed...and yes, just as disgusting in my books.

Unfortunately, that middle ground means Barry is now making money off the same games twice. He is not doing this out of the goodness of his heart...he is either clearing his debt with ARA or putting money in his pockets, or more likely both. This is why I have a problem with how this is going down. If this were a typical company failure, and ARA was selling off assets, then I wouldn't have near as much of an issue. But this guy takes people's money for games that are never delivered and then gets to sell them again to someone else. The distros know this and dont care. If any money he makes goes back to original buyers, then that would be a step in the right direction, but we all know that isn't going to happen.

Tell you more what? He is a proven liar, so why would you believe anything he has to say? Amazing how hope and greed can cloud common sense.

I don't think we are that far apart on what we are saying. I agree the machines don't belong to any one person until they arrive at the door step. My comment about "making money" was relative in the fact that he is getting 'something' out of the deal, otherwise he would not be involved. ARA won the court case, so they got to keep the assets in consideration for what was owed them. That part is over...once the judgment was handed down, the assets belonged lock stock and barrel to ARA. We don't know who contacted whom, but Barry would like us to believe he reached out to ARA to make a deal to "generate some cash flow". I believe that part of the deal is probably true. Think about it.....once the court case was over, he could just walk away scott free, but he knows there is money still to be made and some bones to pick. ( I do not know corporate laws in other countries, but I would assume the officers of DP have a similar protection as in the U.S. and the corporation would be liable for the debt) He strikes a deal to help ARA get rid of machines and parts they have no use for, because he knows people will be lining up to buy the machines. he has the rights to the IP, so maybe the sales have to happen through him? (just a guess). By his own accord, he is doing this to generate revenue...he says to use as seed to start more manufacturing. Anyone that believes that will ever happen is a fool....there is not enough money in what is left to start up anything, else it would have already been done. Yes, Barry is out lots of money and time, but it was his business that he mis-managed and ultimately ran into the ground. He and ARA will sell off the assets for some coin, and you can bet there is a negotiated split that will compensate Barry somehow...so maybe you can't point to a specific game that is being sold twice, but he is making money off the same assets twice, because now they currently belong to ARA. Distros know these games will be hot, and it is a chance to make some coin on their end, so they could care less who is out the money so long as they get something back. I have no issue with them getting their piece of the pie....I do have a problem with them facilitating Barry doing the same. he should be the last person to make ANYTHING.

It's all speculation for any of us here...so there is no right answer unless the court decision and actual agreements are laid out here in front of us. You are placing a lot of weight with the things Barry has said, and you could be right. I guess all of the years as a cop and investigating and watching these type of things go down maybe has jaded me, but Barry has repeatedly lied, so I put absolutely no weight in anything he has claimed. You yourself even question his claims as to the revenue he will generate to start production again...we all know that is a false claim, so why would we believe ANYTHING the guys says? How do we know he even has an agreement? has anyone ever seen the judgment other than Barry's reference to it? Do we even know it really exists? there is a lot of opinion riding on a few comments and a sketchy letter.

But as I said, it is pure speculation for either of us. And I understand your point about suggesting people are "making out" in these deals, and that is not necessarily what I am saying. I don't think there is enough money here for anyone to be "making out" on the deal. But make no mistake...there is a financial incentive for Barry to go through all of this work, and there is a financial incentive for the Distros to grab these games and sell them. It is not about anyone "doing the right thing" else the early folks would be paid first. This is a financial arrangement, plain and simple, and I have a problem with Barry making 1 dollar off of these games until the early folks are reimbursed. And for those that are saying he isn't making money, debt is only getting cancelled, etc.....I don't care if the guy is getting a blowjob out of the deal....he should never be allowed to walk away from this deal with any kind of "happy ending" until the folks he cheated get reimbursed. Just my opinion, and I have been wrong many times before......so who knows here