I did a similar thing only I used the borax dipping method to get a swirl effect.

IMG_0680 (resized).JPG

Also I'm looking for a TBL, if someone is looking to sell

I played burningman's game a few times with the old code and thought it was a lot of fun, but could see there were unfinished parts like the car. I recently got to put a lot of time on it at magfest with the new code and there are a lot of improvements, the car modes especially. It also stood up to the test being moved around a few times, and getting a lot of plays!

1jstty (resized).jpg

In all seriousness, and just my 2c.. But there isn't anyone posting on this forum that knows either the detailed terms of the contract between ARA and DP, nor the financial situation of DP, their investors, or owners. Drawing any conclusions from a brief letter on the internet about the situation, is like saying you understand the ins and outs of the bible because you can read the two words on the front.

I wonder if I can call ARA directly and buy one of the games in their inventory for $1000 more

Exactly.

Just because ARA says they are "owed" money, doesn't mean this is about money or DP not having money. It could simply mean that ARA is greedy. Or it could mean that the contract isn't written explicitly enough, or that both sides have a different interpretation of the contract, which is EXTREMELY common. There are literally infinite possibilities about what "could" be, there is no way of knowing if dutch closing it's doors or not. The facts are, many people pre-ordered a game. Some people got their games. Many people didn't (yet). Dutch didn't want to cause a mass panic (just like this) about an issue they probably can resolve. Everything else is literally just noise and drama including the letter from ARA. If you want to get out, cool, that's your prerogative. But I guarantee you that lots of delays, etc. from many products you buy including pinball machines are from similar situations that are adequately covered up or glossed over.

If you think there is zero gray area in the contracts that you sign, but yet you live in VA like me.. which is a caselaw state. Which means that regardless of what the contract says, there may be caselaw buried deep in the books that makes your contract irrelevant. The fact that you think it is rock solid, is irrelevant. And that's my point.

And yet you still don't understand what you're saying. Glad to be on your non engagement list! Also I'm not impressed with your numbers. Good day sir

It's always the most intelligent ones who feel as though they need to interject name calling into an argument. Right skins?

Yep I melted the main harness of my monster bash, but I also did a complete restoration, and documented my mistakes for the community to see. What good have you brought us?

I also have sold startups and manage a 300 million contract right now. After my own 25 years regardless of what a contract says business is about the relationship between two people. The contract can be bare bones with a tight relationship or iron clad with poor ones, either way the contract means nothing.

Good business is about good relationships not iron clad contracts. And still we know nothing of the situation, and nobody can say what it's about... even money.

Show me evidence.. until then..

I think those of you that are upset DP didn't take the deal with ARA and Nivoge are making one very incorrect assumption. This decision guarantees that TBL will be made.

Perhaps the assets that DP has in the company are worth more than whatever 51% is. A very common takeover tactic (Romney, trump, etc.) is to transfer those assets to the controlling company (in this case Nivoge) then bankrupt the remainder (DP).

I would consider that it is still possible DP is actually protecting the game by refusing the deal.

This is the biggest bunch of bull I've ever read on pinside ever, and that my friend is saying A LOT.

Keep your subjective opinions to yourself and stop cluttering up the facts with nonsense.

So, have him post it on here and cite what evidence he has to support the claim. Otherwise it's just fuel for the BS fire. Hearsay especially 2nd hand doesn't add any value to the conversation. It just causes panic and stir.

All of you guys who are vying for a lawsuit, what exactly do you hope to gain? Your money back? I sympathize with you guys who are fully paid up, and have been for a long while. I really feel for you guys that passed up early pins, or had them arrive destroyed. While I'm not a total sympathizer, i.e. I'm only in for (albeit several) refundable deposits, I want this game to be made. Makes it worse that I can play one at burningman's anytime too, just to rub it in how great the game is.

Some of you are saying DP is broke. OK, let's assume they are broke. But you want to sue them? What exactly will this gain you? Let's take it a step further and assume that by some miracle US law made a shit difference to the Netherlands.

Based on the "they are broke logic" DP will be forced to liquidate any assets that they have in order to pay those on the civil action. OK you say, so they will counter sue ARA. Many of you have also said that their contract with ARA must not have been "iron clad" enough. But do you also think that it is irrefutable enough to hold up to some international civil lawsuit?

OK, let's hypothesize even further. ARA is forced to return the 10 or whatever the hell it actually is games to those listed in the civil action. Cool, all of you can get 1/10th (or worse) of a big lebowski pinball machine. And maybe, if you're lucky we will also get 1/10th (or worse) of that really cool automated robot that was bought to make the playfields. Now what? Either way, it will never end up in you getting a refund, and it will never end up in you getting a lebowski.

I say, instead of figuring out how we can collectively "fuck a stranger in the ass" (i.e. go after DP). Let's figure out how we can use the power of our collective to bail them out of this hole they are in. However, that requires us to commit to DP that we are with them, and for DP to be open and honest.. clean slate.

Those of you invested, I'm calling on you to tell DP that you're with them to get this thing done. DP, I'm calling on you to drop the shroud, the gloves, and put it out there so that we can help you. Or if nothing else, tell us this thing isn't possible and shut the doors taking your loss like men.

Post #431

Cool, maybe one of these head hunters will get them involved in the lawsuit too! #sarcasm

For a change? You don't know me and can't make statements like that. Also, put your story out there before you go making personal attacks.

Highdef and dergoetz. I didn't suggest we should send them money cart Blanche or invest financially any more. But I do know that there is much we are capable of. But we can't help if we don't know what the problems are. If DP is gearing up for a webinar, I want to know the full truth. If I get it I'll do everything I can to help.

I know that being invested fullly since oct 2014 sucks, and I'm truly sorry that you guys are experiencing that. But I am damn near certain that the headhunting, threats, pot stirring, and negativity against them is going to fix absolutely nothing.

DP, put your cards in the table. Let's either gear up or move on.

Of the original khan?

You all seem to assume bail out = money (thanks Obama!) I agree we shouldn't give them any more money. That doesn't mean we can't help in a million other ways. (Bail out means to grab a bucket and remove water from a boat faster than its coming in.)

However if we knew more about what the specific challenges were, we would be more armed to help. Right now all we know is they need a manufacturer and assembler.

We are lawyers, technologists, craftsmen, cpa's, etc.

I think cointaker has #200-#300 but that came second hand as well so I think 100/150 is in the right ballpark.

Myself and a few other friends are in on 8 through cointaker.

I have to say, I love all this positive creativity and problem solving!

well.. I'm half way there.

When I heard they were doing a webinar, I started to get the feeling that maybe.. just maybe they hired a professional PR/marketing company to help them out of this mess. Then I read on twitch and that idea immediately went into the toilet.

Where+is+the+money+lebowski+_fdae9630d59a54b231f49420f7fbfd76 (resized).jpg

Do you remember the periscope dialed in launch? Let's just not do that again with this OK?

Why don't we start coming up with the questions we want answered, regardless of where we are in line and keep pushing for them to hear and respond? Here are my suggestions.

I suggest that DP consider their "early achievers" angel or seed investors in the company, and with that they should disclose the current high-level financial status through a regular investor update i.e. quarterly, this should also go to their distributors that are holding deposits. Here is an example. (Through our early achievers deposits we rasied X in early seed capital, of what Y was spent on manufacturing, Z on operational costs, and A in cash reserves, B in debt, etc.) If you need the early achievers to sign NDA's fine, this type of communication at least in the US, is extremely common. - BTW DP, I can help with this communication strategy if you want!

1.) Where is the single source of truth for information? Is it someone on pinside posting to the forums, if so who? The e-mails that are sent out? Phone calls to Jaap and translated on here? Regular webinars? How often can we expect to get these updates? (Sounds like we have a communications technology expert on the forums here too.)

2.) What are the operational risks that DP is tracking at the moment, what is their impact if realized, and how are they being mitigated? (i.e. - impending lawsuits, manufacturing challenges)

3.) Does DP have an insurance policy that can handle the potential financial legal ramifications of the previous relationships w/ ARA, etc. or how will you be planning to bear the cost of a possible suit from customers?

4.) With the new manufacturers that are providing quotes, etc. is there any specialized parts/tooling that will take "duplicative" investment to re-create? Or, is it all OEM part sourcing? (Zitt, and Timebandit have had a lot of success getting molded parts made as well as specialized boards printed, etc.)

5.) How many assembled games are currently being "held hostage" by ARA, and what is the likely outcome for those games?

I'm sure we can make that happen.

That's fine, they have given us an avenue to contact them. Let's keep the questions coming that we want answered and submit it to them. If they don't answer them in the webinar, we will address that as needed.

Dutch pinball only has an obligation to the folks that are fully invested, but not to those who have pre-ordered through other means? If that is the case I'll call my distributor and tell them that I don't want the 8 TBL's that I have pre-ordered.

foxtj24, what reason do you have to downvote that?

entrepreneur and product developer/manager here.. can confirm, that would be amazing.

Yes see earlier, in with another friend on 8 (eight) spots.

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They didn't. Read the back a few pages then pull your tape measure out big guy. If you don't want another advocate on your side piss off.

Having some fun with her as well today at burningmans. It really is one of the best games ever made. Let's get her done DP!!

IMG_2049 (resized).JPG

I think it's for sale or about to be.

but then abandon the ability to file suit with them later on. Not a good option.

If you're an early achiever and you want to recoup some of your losses, I'll buy your spot (preferably under #100) at a fair price given the current state of things.

I'm willing to buy a spot as well if anyone is looking to cash out and get some of your money back.

Sounds like there are buyers out there for 8500. Maybe tuna delight has some friends.

I think it is safe to say that the webinar has not helped the situation. While I thought it was great clearly the temperature here has gone up a few degrees.

I don't think it's safe to assume that a Dutch company operates in the same fashion as a C corp in the USA.

dp_financial_info.pdf

dp_financial_info2.pdf

This time without Barry's e-mail inbox!

Oh joy, theblackknight is here to finally educate us all on the situation.

I grow weary of your "I was here before you" attitude, speaking of hospitality.. and the whole I was and am still on RGP, etc. etc. etc. it's a tired story you're always sowing. Stop acting like you're the wisest and most knowledgeable person in all of the hobby, and that we couldn't possibly know any better because we absolutely haven't been around as long.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Have you never in your life told a lie? We are all human. I think we need to move on from what was said about the boards, and look more at today.

DP very well may have not paid their first invoice because ARA tried to upcharge them, right?

What I heard in the webinar was they don't have the money to refund everyone 140/150 people. I think I also heard them say they have the money to refund maybe 60 people which would mean they have about 500k in operating capital.

Just because you didn't hear the answers exactly as you would've wanted doesn't mean they didn't address the questions.

Not that it matters but the time for angel investing is long gone and the capital need is likely more 500k series seed funding.

Jaap talked about going to a bank for a loan. Maybe he will do an equity line of credit

I had a stupid idea. I was thinking of my mossberg shotgun, it by law can only hold 5 rounds but if you remove a silly plastic insert it can hold 7. (A way around delivering the product still in compliance with the law.)

What if somebody worked with ARA to build a kit to de-license the game to something like "the dude" that was easily reversible when it got to the customer. Removable stickers over the characters, format the drive so that there wasn't any software and change the translight out. Mylar wrap the cabinet, etc.

This wouldn't get he games to the right people but it is a creative way ARA could sell the games possibly legally.

Probably right. Just running out of things to speculate over now. Hah

I see what you did there!

I think BOP 2.0 has a great ruleset, simple but lots of risk/reward and challenging enough to work through everything. Shoot the scoop to start a mini mode, complete it and next time you start a mode you get one of the big wheel modes worth bigger points. Complete it, get another big wheel, don't complete it.. back to the mini modes.

Where do I send my money?

He is right about one thing though, pinside is much better without Hylton..

Shocker.

Not necessarily, the court ordered ARA and Dutch Pinball to "figure it out" on their own to start.. Since we're all speculating, what if the compromise included selling the existing inventory?

The war is over Mr. Lebowski, the bums lost... time for all of us to move on..

I want one of these fucking games and I hate the torcher that this has become..

I’m sick too, can I sign paperwork to get out of my ten games?

In the movie.. the dude just wants his rug back.. and gets taken for a wild ride.. how fitting.. this has got to be the most dramatic saga in all of pinball. Or was it alien? Or maybe predator? Or maybe Magic Girl.. I digress.

I went back and forth about trying to get one of these $12,500 games.. I'm glad I didn't make up my mind before they were gone..

It sucks that this happened to anyone.. and while I get that this being an international trade it muddies the water a bit, but in a capitalist economy "caveat emptor", let the buyer beware.

EA's spent $8k+ with DP on hopes and dreams of owning this game, some people got them, others got nothing. The EA's "contract" with Dutch Pinball ended when the Dutch court decided the games belonged to ARA and not DP, in order to cover debts owed. Can any EA's produce a legitimate contract or is it just a credit card receipt?

Once these games were determined to be owned by ARA, this created a new market, agnostic of all the EA's. All the dreamers out there that think these games should have been offered to EA's first, or some other carebear B.S. is delusional. ARA owes nothing to the EA's and is solely focused on recovering debts owed (by DP). Cointaker is just the middle man in this transaction, and it seems grey because they helped broker the original sales of these games.. but everyone should divorce themselves from this. To my knowledge they only offered refundable deposits on this games, and have maintained integrity throughout this ordeal.

EA's have four options.

1.) Do nothing and move on. (Or wait for DP to magically produce new games..)
2.) Buy one on the secondary (12,5k) or tertiary market (likely 12.5k+)
3.) Spend more money and individually file suit against DP. - A lawyer will likely cost more than what has already been spent, and legal costs are considered a "wash" and usually cannot be reclaimed in lawsuits. Finding one that is specialized in international trade on US and the Netherlands isn't going to be like your local Saul Goodman rate either. Then if a judgement is ruled in your favor, you still need to get money out of DP. If you think they have any capital left, you are delusional.
4.) Band together or attempt to file a class-action lawsuit. - If you can find a lawyer specialized in this situation, convince them that there is financial gain at the end for the risk they would need to put up, the EA's could likely win a judgement. But again, unless one of the EA's is a bloodthirsty lawyer, I sincerely doubt anyone is going to look at this and think there is any money left to be had. If this happens, likely DP will just declare bankruptcy and negate it all.. See "Predator"

Any chance for restitution against DP the EA's had resided with the games that ARA has just sold.

Predicting the future, I'll speculate that Dutch Pinball has many outstanding debts and will soon file bankruptcy. Those debts will be cataloged and prioritized, and paid out with any available capital or capital that can be raised through liquidation. Guess how much that will be.. ZERO. See "Heighway Pinball"..

Ok now you’re just trolling...

They are in the pinball selling business.. what they are doing does not question their integrity at all. You should direct your frustration at Dutch pinball not the middle man.

If you pay to have a house built, and the builder never delivers.. do you crucify the realtor?

Your analogy doesn’t make sense. It’s more like you order something from Kickstarter for one price and it shows up later on amazon for twice as much before you get your order..

Guess what, that happens too. See my earlier point about two different markets now. Anyone with your perspective is confusing them as the same market.

How do you know DP offered cointaker any money? How do you know CT didn’t work with ARA directly for a fee?

How do you know what cash was leftover if you don’t know what the debt to ARA was?

You live in carebearland not reality.

They are contracted to help clean up DPs mess.. profit made doesn’t look fishy to me, it looks like ARA had a problem of pinball inventory.. and cointaker was obviously able to easily solve it.. they turned 40 useless boxes (to ARA) into cash in less than 24 hours..

That doesn’t happen for free.

You’re confusing the issue.. EAs agreement was with Dutch Pinball.

Cointaker sold games on behalf of ARA..

Woo pissed on your rug.. (DP).. he’s the carpetpisser.. Mr. Lebowski didn’t micturate on your rug..(Cointaker)..

I’ve got news for you Londonpinball, the war is over.. the bums lost!

Yes that sucks.. everyone is confusing DP vs ARA vs cointaker and who owned what when..

EAs paid 8500 to DP, which DP blew on whatever. Parties, salaries, three month vacations, Jaaps book on “success” and anything else that caused them to not be able to pay their bill to ARA. That’s what you should be mad about..

ARA held these games until they were paid, or DP agreed that ARA would be majority shareholders of DP.. remember DP rejected that? They twice over (at least) screwed EAs.

The Dutch court granted ARA ownership of the games and ARA wanted them sold on the free market (which cointaker helped broker) to reclaim capital for debts owed, and has no agreement with EAs and possibly no knowledge of what an EA even is...

Everyone was given the same opportunity to pay 12,500.

A “typical” license agreement is 1-3 years (base year with two option years).. we don’t know the details of their agreement, but with no revenue I’m pretty sure we can safely speculate. The license period is over.

Weyland Yutani would take on the task..

Yeah just Barry lies and bullshit.. there was a time when I wanted to help these guys.. :middle finger:

I was part of the crew that was on the unofficial US “marketing team”.. I was part of the crew that helped unfuck the finances before Phil got out.. and I was part of the crew that basically is responsible for keeping Aliens in parts and running.. so I walk the walk..

You find me a pile of parts I’ll make you a lebowski..

but we’ve all seen plenty of examples of Barry lying.. even when he “comes clean” it’s more lies.. I’m not interested in being bullshitted one on one.

Don't worry, Bride of Pinbot 4.0 will sell like hotcakes..

Actually I would reach out to ZNET and find out what information would be required to start banding together the EA's to make a case.. Then create a google form for those interested to fill out that relevent data. Then find an attorney possibly local to Netherlands to help with the case.

My opinion though, is that now that the ARA games are sold.. the EA's have lost their greatest leverage. Pretty soon Barry will be making hydrofoils with Andrew Heighway.

Please go..

Found the snowflake!

Alright, many years ago I paid $1000 for a truck. A 1976 Ford F-100, it was white with blue interior and a Hurst shifter. I was stoked.

The title apparently though while signed over wasn’t a legitimate clean title and it was impounded and sent back to the real owner. Me out 1k.

So by the logic in this thread, if any of you have one of these trucks.. Instead of selling it for fair Market value, you are obligated to offer it to me first and then sell it to me for a price fair to me which is 1k, about 4-5k less than market. Am I getting this right?

Edit: I just realized the real world effect of every kid getting a trophy, and the whole there are no winners or losers BS some parents have been pushing the last 20 years..

Don’t sweat it. People are just envious you have things they don’t have..

Yeah but nobody cares what you think.

They arrived. For some, the customs forms weren’t filled out correctly and were delayed at every stop/crossing. Some games arrived perfect with no issues, others arrived in damaged but “working” and potentially recoverable condition. But, arrived nonetheless.

Speaking of no skin in the game, this thread is twice as old as you!

So Barry is Design, Sales, Assembly, Support, HR, Accounting, Shipping/Receiving... and you guys think they will be assembled on a similar timeline as Spooky? Anything else you want to buy?

That’s my point.. this “business model” doesn’t work..

I’ve never seen someone put buttons on the cabinet before the decals. Something isn’t right here..

I guess it’s the color of the decal.. looked like a bare cabinet initially..

Dude, tea lady is not the preferred nomenclature.. tea person please..

How can any sane person look at this and think this business model of a one man show is ever going to work? EA's need to band together and sue if you want any chance of getting your money back. Because unless you are EA# 37-40 you're not getting one anytime soon, forget about those of us much later in line.

Mid-July is when Cointaker started taking orders for the 40 machines that ARA had. People started receiving those games in late August.. So theoretically Barry could have started getting parts and assembling them then, it's also possible he had partially or even fully assembled play fields. But let's just be really conservative and assume that Barry only started assembling games in September. I get it, he had to organize parts, and get his shop setup and that probably took the majority of his time. So even though he had more than a month to get one game out the door, let's assume that he can build one a week, or four a month. It will take him 9.6 years to build all 500 games by himself. Remember, this business model is make 400-500 games to make the EA's whole..

A huge majority of the revenue is going towards making EA's whole.. so it will be very unlikely that he will be able to afford people to help assemble those games. But let's assume he can hire a few more people and he can produce 8 games per month.. it's still going to take him over 4 years to make everyone whole.. Keep in mind, the more games he has out in the wild, the more support those games will need.. eventually it's going to become unsustainable, and he will need to hire to keep up with demand and pace, which he can't afford.

For perspective, Spooky puts out about 500 a year with I estimate about 20-30x the number of employees

Hey Pinhead1982, what did barry have for breakfast today? Your nose is so brown I'm sure you can tell by the smell.. Fill us in on the specifics then, how many employees whats the expected build timelines going forward?

Ok, from here on out then it will be very interesting to see what Barry and "his team" can produce. My guess is, it will be a continued stream of excuses now proxied through you and whoever his megaphone of the month is. My prediction, is he can sustain building a game a week for a little while until the next roadblock or two is hit.. then it will be back to radio silence more so than before.

So he and "his team" built 2 games in 3 weeks on top of a whole ton of other shit. Even if he and "his team" can build 8x that amount and then can build 16 games a month.. In 2.6 years all the EA's will be whole.. ludicrous

Anyway, in about 8-12 months you all can reflect on my post above.. otherwise I'll eat crow with the others..