Quoted from sevenrites:
Just played a prototype in Allentown...
Wish I could have seen it too, maybe from some videos.... But noooooo!
Wow, almost everything you've wanted to know, together in one place.
Only thing I'd like DP to update us with is status of the music. Hoping to confirm which songs are in or out. They addressed this a long time ago, but a refresher of the facts would be appreciated.
Why can't clips be programmed to run in entirety, but end when ball drains? This sucks donkey balls.
DP, I am on the fence about this pin. Don't push me away.
Quoted from fosaisu:
This definitely sucks, I wonder if they could at least program in some kind of pinbrowser functionality so users could readily replace music with selections of their own choosing.
Think I remember awhile ago that DP was not going to have open source code and that NO music swaps would be possible. Can someone get DP on record answering this question?
Quoted from Rensh:
Good question. Next show would be TPF I think but the next news should be I think a NSN on showing delivery of the first machine
or pics of final production model and video demonstrating completed software. This might take a few months. Pics showing them being opened are welcome but that should likely take four months or so to get there, don't skip showing us a final machine.
Nothing is F$cked Here. Let's go bowling, Dude.
Ones destined for the US are being made __________. Can someone in the know fill in the blank?
Quoted from sd_tom:
In the Netherlands? What are you blatherling about?
I couldn't remember if there was a possible US manufacturing location, due to high percentage of orders expected to deliver in the market. So US will be a distribution hub only and 100% serviced by Cointaker. Thanks.
Pretty sure that when you say see what's going on, you mean see stats and info ... but pretty cool anyways and great that info is readily displayed. Wonder if there is a way to get more specific data? Stuff like how many - multiballs started, modes completed, jackpots/super collected, highest jackpot/super value collected, extra balls earned, inserts lit etc. Those are the kind of indicators that might actually help a player alter his game strategy, and also result in a big jump in scores.
Quoted from burningman:
Actually...there is a feed where you can see the animations and scoring from the LCD in real time when the game is online. Earlier it was online and you could see it....check back from time to time...its still early for the bar to get crowded but I bet in a few hours we will be seeing some play.
It is 3:17pm there right now .... almost 5 o'clock. I'll give potential patrons a few more hours of beauty sleep before checking back in.
Congrats to the first real customer getting his actual game. WoW!! Jealously awaiting a few pics. and it happened on 420 day. The Dude is righteous.
If you order TBL now, you are probably going to wait 9 months to get it - Spring of 2017. If you order an Alien and want to wait for an LE, it will probably be next Spring or Summer 2017 before it shows up. If you reserved a RZ but were a week late to jump onboard, you will be waiting until next Spring also. Spring next year Stern will still be running GB premium & MMr. So if you didn't already order one of the above and want one, plan on sitting by for a little bit. That's ok, let code develop while you start saving money. Try saving $500 a month for 10 months if you want one of these nib pins and you'll have half what you need come Spring 2017.
TBL looks solid and instrumental music is ok. I still want ability to swap in original score before I purchased one. Meaning - lack of swappable music is a deal breaker. Jury is still out on how that ends up. Price is a concern too, I'll be watching code develop until it gets to the point I feel game is worth $10k. Every video shows a little more and gets incrementally better.
Quoted from dannylite:
..... You're a loser for pulling out.
Doesn't seem fair to call him the loser. People get a refund for all kinds of reasons. There were at least three major issues to consider. Heck, if even one of them did not meet your personal smell test, you were advised to bail immediately! Nobody is a loser
Quoted from Mr68:
Thoughtful friends have been posting on my Facebook wall.
Yikes! Piloted by an under-achieving captain, no doubt. Who's behind the wheelhouse of the beloved Delphinus? Look me in the eye - Business Associates want to know their goods are being looked after and that the man in charge knows he's in charge. If the ship goes down, the captain better be prepared to dive in and drag those crates to safety.
Based on the location of ships on the map, early indiniation is the Delphinus will continue hugging the coastlne as she motors south. Expect her to begin turning as she passes Spain and aims west to cross the ocean. Captain Joseph Hazelwood will be watcing the night sky, guiding this elegent lady across the tide.
Good ship Delphinus is in safe hands. Captain Joseph Hazelwood has temporarily retired below deck for an ice-cold bottle of vodka. He'll soon return with it to the crows nest before settling in for night watch.
Two things I've learned - Captain Joseph Hazelwood loves his life on the open sea ... and Captain Joseph Hazelwood loves his vodka. They go hand in hand. Some say he isn't too deep, if you know what I mean. Well, I've seen him down two bottles of vodka before breakfast to wind down. Yes, mornings are the best time to talk with Captain Joseph Hazelwood. Partly because he coming off night watch and is pretty agreeable and partly because he will soon dive into his bunk and will be predisposed for eight hours ... but I digress.
Quoted from sd_tom:
She hasn't been heard from in 4 hours..
What is important is the part about the ship being out of radio contact. wtf doesn't Sprint have a commercial with a guy boating on the ocean asking - can you hear me now? Guess they weren't kidding. Are we to believe cargo ships, aka floating football fields, suddenly become stealth? Hopefully Captain Joseph Hazelwood doesn't decide to climb out to the tip of rigging, to adjust the tv antenna during a lighting storm. Better to send one of the deckhands out instead.
^^^ After all those donuts, can anybody verify the boat is heading west by South west? Found archival footage of the honorable Captain Joseph Hazelwood on his way to the shipyards to begin piloting the good ship Delphinus to the US. He always gets excited when told he can drive the boat.
I think the container will be transferred to another ship that heads to NY.
but should this conjecture be wrong and honest Captain Joseph Hazelwood be asked to pilot the good ship Delphinius south, well he is already standing by. Now, however, is time for an ice cold bottle of vodka before dinner. A lot of time to kill before the start of night watch, and Captain Hazelwood needs to de-stress.
Quoted from sd_tom:
Man, is it just me or is the Delphinus a bit sluggish today on making fwd progress into NYC.
Not much happens during the day. Honest Captain Joseph Hazelwood sleeps untill being roused by the ship loudspeaker. Once awake, he'll grab a chilled bottle of vodka from quarters, and head to dinner for a big plate of food. Afterwards he'll adjourn to the billiard room for some pocket pool and will finish the bottle and continue to relax. Then it is prayers, a quick shower and a final chance to grab a fresh bottle of chilled vodka before shift change. "Never drink vodka room temperature!" is a marketing slogan Captain Hazelwood once thought of one late night. Honest Captain Joseph Hazelwood trots to the Crows Nest. Bet he steers the good ship Delphinus into NY harbors tonight.
Quoted from Nilroc:
Should of left it "plate of foot"
The Captain could very well be a Cannibal.
Based on preliminary research into cannibalism, (including one or more recent tv shows) some cannibals like to prepare and plate their food before a big meal (usually involves a nice chianti and sometimes even fava beans). I have no knowledge of what Captain Hazelwood may or may not choose to eat.
I knew the honorable Captain Joseph Hazelwood would guide in her in last night. Lined her up too, so the day crew could power in for the pic. Ship looks like a missile with a hard-on for NJ, and has left PB#2 behind in her wake. Look for the ship to dock and unload before Captain Hazelwood wakes up or even starts his night shift. If this is the last time we hear from or see the honorable Captain Joseph Hazelwood, we wish him the best of luck on his next assignment.
I don't know about American TBL fans, but this seems like an occasion the Dude might be willing to look the other way, if someone chose to sip on ice-chilled vodka tonight, instead of the white russians. You know, give the old taste buds a night off. As someone used to say, and I even read somewhere, "Never drink vodka room temperature!"
Hey Delphinus ... watch out for the other ship! Le Nacho Libre bows to no one.
Quoted from RTR:
Dude, I am moving and am probably gonna have to ask cointaker to hold onto my game for an extra month.....arrrghhhhhh
Have it put back on the good ship Delphinus and have the honorable Captain Joseph Hazelwood to drive it once around the continent. By the time he's back you'll be ready.
What the H3LL's a matter with you - where's the rug? The curtains kinda mess with the room's flow and feng shui. You really need something to .... tie the room together, man.
Wow, for a minute I thought I was reading pinball porn ...
Quoted from mrbillishere:
...The Mrs is gushing over this title like no other. That was an unexpected bonus.
So far the only thing odd about it is the fact that occasionally the ball in the lower playfield doesn't release when it is supposed to and pressing the ball launch button again doesn't do a thing. Everything seems to be on hold indefinitely when this happens so I've taken to opening up the coin door and manually pulling the plunger on that coil to release the ball. After that it works normally. Wondering if this is software as opposed to hardware. ...
congrats to the whole family on your TBL!
Quoted from flynnibus:
Could be a component change due to availability...
Could simply be faulty supplier...
Many components have very long lead times (months even) or undergo their own lifecycle revisions. Hardware engineers have to manage these 'unavoidable' changes in supply chain all the time. But usually you try to vet these changes before you impact the production line.. but with so low volumes.. your lack of inventory hurts you in these situations.
Do you agree that if DP were to share the specific issue(s) they were having, we'd all know and there'd be no need to continue with pointless speculation? They'd likely feel better afterwards and should probably consider doing this sooner, rather than later. It always comes out anyways, in the end.
As ARA reportedly wants another $1k per board set based on their understanding and DP has shipped 30(?) games, ARA would want immediate payment of the 30k. Possibly a detail in their contract was triggered that requires this payment up front before delivery of each machine.
My solution: DP pays ARA the 30k owed, and alerts its buyers that their final costs have increased $1k. If they want a refund, full amount will be returned, as new orders come in. Chaulk it up to bad management, and save yourself headaches of finding another CM just pay the ransom.
Unfortunately, special achievers without games, it appears you're fucked! Abandon all hope, he who enters. You can put a fork in it. If Dutch Pinball doesn't have funds for the container load of delivered games (all speculation), no more games will ship. The 40 games in ARAs warehouse will continue to sit, until a court case begins and ends. Maybe Walter Sobchak can cheer you up, but remember to substitute "everything" for "nothing" as you read it ...
Walter Sobchak: Nothing is fucked here Dude. Nothing is fucked. They're a bunch of fucking amateurs!
The Dude: Walter, would you just shut the fuck... don't say a peep while I'm doing business here, man!
Walter Sobchak: Okay Dude. Have it your way.
[the Dude answers the phone]
Walter Sobchak: But they're amateurs.
Thanks for the spelling reminder, Nilroc. Guess you could argue I didn't cross my t's. Does that put me over the line?
Quoted from Nikonokin:
If this goes south those 51 delivered machines are gonna be worth a ton. Number 52 here....can't believe I am 1 unit away from avoiding this fiasco. OVER THE LINE!!!
Most definitely over the line, man. That's a bummer dude. One of many favorite scenes.
The Dude: Walter, ya know, it's Smokey, so his toe slipped over the line a little, big deal. It's just a game, man.
Walter Sobchak: Dude, this is a league game, this determines who enters the next round robin. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?
Smokey: Yeah, but I wasn't over. Gimme the marker Dude, I'm marking it 8.
Walter Sobchak: [pulls out a gun] Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
The Dude: Walter...
Walter Sobchak: You mark that frame an 8, and you're entering a world of pain.
Smokey: I'm not...
Walter Sobchak: A world of pain.
Smokey: Dude, he's your partner...
Walter Sobchak: [shouting] Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a shit about the rules? Mark it zero!
The Dude: They're calling the cops, put the piece away.
Walter Sobchak: Mark it zero!
[points gun in Smokey's face]
The Dude: Walter...
Walter Sobchak: [shouting] You think I'm fucking around here? Mark it zero!
Smokey: All right, it's fucking zero. Are you happy, you crazy fuck?
Walter Sobchak: ...It's a league game, Smokey.
Quoted from wellarmed:
Seems like the only people who complain about code are those that haven't their machines yet or cancelled their preorder.
Wrong - some Pinside owners already noted the lack of programming and ensuing boredom with code as it stands. Some admitted to not wanting to play it further until the software improves.
There are many of us on the sidelines awaiting - the improved code AND the ARA matter to be sorted. But these are two separate issues. Not continuing the development and release of code impacts more than just those currently with a machine. It disincentivizes future players and potential sales. I expect these issues will take a while to be resolved. Settle back and tap a keg.
Rensh, thanks for the info. If this is only a financial / contract issue, would it be ridiculous to suggest DP push for an agreement -> ARA to ship the already made games at the contracted price, DP to pay monies owed from first container of delivered pins, DP to put funds into escrow for the 40 built pins to be shipped and ARA initiate lawsuit for what they feel is unpaid and a path forward? This would be in everybody's best interest and the games won't be held hostage.. a win-win-win-win! Oh well. .. someone mixed my medicine, I don't know what I'm on.
Rensh, wish you'd have asked Barry if funds were available to pay for these and the other preordered games not yet made. Because if that was not true, it could be a cause of further concern to many. I'm sure you got a good read and could judge his sincerity. If true, my paradigm would shift on this matter and make DP 100% in the right. If it was only a disagreement over what's owed and there is no question of having 100% of funds available, I'd be overjoyed to learn. So wish you'd have thought to ask Barry.
Can you investigate my question, please? Does DP have enough funds to pay for all preordered games? Other than $1k@ in dispute, do they have the money or was it spent getting them to this point? Other questions are important but I hope you can see to asking about and reporting back. You can size people up pretty good, so feel you are the best one to ask.
Without knowing DP's financial position, their decision might have been ok. If they have all preorder funds, they could and should await legal arbitration. Once the matter is settled, get those games shipping. In the meantime they SHOULD continue coding and fixing mechanical issues with TBL.
My common sense tells me otherwise, they don't have the preorder money and have eaten a hole of about $300k - $400k. That is why the push to sell BOP2 @ 2 x $value. A Ponzi scheme, no matter how well intentioned is never the right answer. Dutch Pinball had burned through TBL cash for BOP2 project, according to Phil, immediately preceding phil-gate. So there might be another $100k - $200k needed to fill that hole. Presuming Dutch Pinball doesn't have the money, there is no TBL. They are bankrupted / insolvent.
Unless Barry / Japp come forward with some documentation of money sitting in the bank, not many will believe anything they say. I don't mean to be stirring things but I see no hope of anyone else receiving their games. Everything is f@cked, Dude! Sorry to those with money lost. BTW if DP is someday outed as being $400k - $600k in the hole, that is gross mismanagement and deception. I have no direct knowledge of any misdoings, but am putting the pieces in place.
Quoted from ff6735:
Personally, I'm not willing to expend another 1k+ to get the game I have, not because I can't, but because I just won't....
You are ignoring the high probability that ... the money's gone, Lebowski. What if statements by ARA are true and they are owed for previous games shipped plus these AND there are no funds? Now you would be one lucky Irishman to get yours shipped for $1k additional. The reality is more close to - $6k still owed for a prebuilt game plus the extra $1k plus $7k for someone else's game that shipped and which ARA wasn't paid. That's right, your share comes out to $14k to receive your game. I can see a lot of people balking at that price. Those pre-built games will likely never ship, imho. Put a fork in TBL, they're done.
Quoted from titanpenguin:
Given this insight, and knowing the required time frame for ARA to deliver both all TBL and 50 BOP25th, and that additional TBL funds from non-achievers deposits/not paid in full were locked out from DP until the games were ready to ship, it seems what we are seeing is a perfect sh!t storm.
The only shit storm here is the one DP is trying to drop on ARA. ARA built and delivered fifty games and has since built forty more games that are ready to go, yet can't get their invoices paid. It seems DP has been dodging that portion of their obligation. Why ARA took so long before stopping work might be a bigger mystery. DP has known this day was coming, well it's here now and the smoke is beginning to clear.
The firing of the DM at ARA is potentially a good development, it does not signal victory quite yet. There is still the question of whether DP has the funds to pay for the shipped games plus those being ransomed. For that we are at the mercy of DP to show us the money. Anything short of that will be listened to with huge grain of skepticism. So if DP is lurking, is this your bank statement, man?
That $50k TBL on ebay might be $10k by Christmas '17 yet, if all goes well. Barry or Jaap any update on software progress in near term and moving forward?
Quoted from JimB:
As you might know, today we visited ARA, the contract manufacturer of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball, to see if we can work things out. Last week the managing director of ARA left the company and, since he was responsible for the project, we had an opening to talk again.
After two hours of talking, both ARA and DP concluded that it was a useful meeting and that things look positive. In the next two weeks, we will review and work on a new plan, contract and terms. We are very positive about this new situation and will send you more updates when there is news.
Barry & Jaap
Quoted from Rensh:
...Small warning: next week Thursday is a national celebration day in Netherlands (kings birthday). A lot of companies are closed on Friday to. So next week is a short business week I hope there is a meeting next week ofcourse but time is short for this.
No worries. In anticipation of such, I took the liberty to send the ARA team a gift on behalf of DP. I wanted to grease the wheels, something that says DP is ready to act in good faith, but won't stand for being pushed around. I signed the gift card ... XOXO the Dutch.
Quoted from JimB:
Lets all volunteer to fly over there and get a bunch of pinheads to finish building out the machines when ARA is closed for a month in August. We do the labor for free and they get all that space back.
Pretty inventive solution. Don't forget to run a bake sale each morning too, with proceeds going into a lock-box for repaying ARA for all their materials you use aka playfield, mechs, ramps, electronics, harness etc.
Quoted from lamihh:
I've decided to jump off this rollercoaster. It's been a hell of a ride and it definetly didn't feel good to ask Melissa for a refund (which shall arrive in a matter of days). There's one spot left now if anybody want to jump in. Would have loved to have a TBL in my mancave but have to get out of the kitchen as I simply don't like the heat and the way the cook is trying to make the dinner. Good luck everybody nevertheless
What was your purchase price - $8.5k?
My take on the announcement is that it confirms earlier speculation DP is out of money and can't pay for 50 hostage games sitting in warehouse, nor for games already delivered to US. DP's plan to build BOP 3.0 was to fund back orders. That option wouldn't work and wasn't going to, expect to see it abandoned.
This deal is for DP to give up controlling ownership for the monies owed and to established a price for producing games going forward. If DP agrees, expect the debt to be forgiven and games to flow again. Make no mistake, the project was in the red and DP needed a rescue. This is likely to be the only option that presents itself and I don't see DP has anyone else or anywhere else to go. For that reason I think they will take the deal and build all 300 games.
ARA will have to show a strong commitment to supporting the game and furthering code before I'd be interested in a TBL.
Quoted from knockerlover:
I think those of you that are upset DP didn't take the deal with ARA and Nivoge are making one very incorrect assumption. This decision guarantees that TBL will be made.
Perhaps the assets that DP has in the company are worth more than whatever 51% is. A very common takeover tactic (Romney, trump, etc.) is to transfer those assets to the controlling company (in this case Nivoge) then bankrupt the remainder (DP).
I would consider that it is still possible DP is actually protecting the game by refusing the deal.
Based on the sleazy manner in which Nivoge slipped onto the scene and demanded 51%, rather than trying to be a 50/50 partner, indicates they probably would have taken steps to screw DP out of any money. Agree they likely would have transferred assets out and bankrupted DP, only for TBL pinball machine to emerge under another umbrella - this was not a legitimate option for Dutch Pinball. By suggesting this plan (scheme), it indicates ARA isn't going to spend any additional time negotiating terms on existing pins. Best course of action for DP at this point is to begin legal proceedings. It may be a long road, but once the paperwork is filed, the clock will begin ticking and ARA might see the light one day and negotiate the sale of 50 hostage machines back to DP during the wait. It is painfully obvious now though, without actual legal action, ARA is not motivated to do anything more.
This case couldn't cost DP much to litigate. A few grand to file motions, ten grand to review files and correspond some, another ten grand if it goes to court. This case does not have that many twists and turns. Instead if DP was able to get this into an arbitration court instead, the costs would be even less.
It's time for DP to light the legal afterburners, before the company flame blows out, leaving a trail of thin rising smoke. The Dude would insist.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Has anyone opened a dispute with Paypal? I thought maybe I couldn't due to too much time passing...but I just went through the process and set up a dispute for all 4 of my payments. Let's see where this goes....
I opened a dispute with PayPal on another pin and payment was made 200 days prior. I submitted it and went to open disputes queue and found it empty. Went to closed disputes list and saw the one I just entered had been closed with a note stating charge occurred more than 180 days and case was being closed. Pffft! F that, PayPal guarantee did nothing for me.
Greg, did you get around that roadblock yet?
The big unanswered question is whether DP has any remaining money. A preponderance of circumstantial evidence points to no, it is long gone. For DP to have credibility that they are negotiating in good faith and to prove that they aren't totally F&CKED and jerking everyone around with the weekly NSNL's, DP should demonstrate proof of a healthy cash balance lying around the bank to pay off - delivered machines, parts vendors and setting up new factory. Until they do that, most will continue believing DP is bankrupt and living in a fantasy world.
Very good podcast Jaap, there was a lot of topics to cover and he was very professional in his presentation of the facts. I learned;
1) The plan was always for ARA to self-fund production, which is why DP didn't have to cover most of the inventory buildup or manufacturing until games shipped. This also explains why ARA pushed so hard for Nivoge to takeover 51% ownership. I am mostly inclined to believe DP's account of things and statements they have been making over the past six months. It make some sense now. Going after ARA will only be a financial maneuver by DP and won't get the games built faster. ARA is written off being any part of the solution. Hostage games should be considered as lost forever.
2) However, once an estimated cost for production is received, financing options will be explored. I think this step was glossed over and not given enough attention. Jaap mentioned that the new contract manufacturer will give them a response on a self-funding model too, but alluded to it being more likely that crowd sourcing, go-fund-me, bank loan or other private funding methods will be sought. He is talking about developing a strong business plan & manufacturing plan to attract funding. To me this indicates it will many more years before the game is really out in numbers. For that reason, I think step #1 of the business plan ought to be refund EA's and current buyers 100%. Get them out of the preorder model and go forward with a fresh slate.
3) Already released software is considered complete except for wizard mode, players shouldn't expect much change. This was most disappointing part to me, because a lot of great ideas for code refinement have been mentioned and everyone reviewing this game says it needs more polish. I believe this position will change once games were going out, but it will require a shift in current thinking. A code jockey will would need to be brought on board, better yet, DP should release their code as open source and allow p-roc'ers a chance to - Make TBL Great Again.
Quoted from fosaisu:
That would be ideal, but per some of the comments above it sounds like DP has stated they do not have the money to refund everyone 100%. And it's hard to imagine a lender would be keen on giving them money to pay off preexisting debts, vs. build and ship machines (which would get them to profitability faster, even if the first 150 games go to cover fully-paid preorders).
I don't know, this sounds eerily familiar to Heighway's attracting investors. New people injecting new capital - and if the plan is based on borrowing enough to refund existing buyers their money, buy parts, setup factory for manufacturing and early production costs, they will have a lot more people and potential customers pulling for them.
Without knowing DP's true cash position and debts - something I advised DP to provide evidence of - we are left to guess. sorry rtr
Zero cash, zero owed to suppliers and a liability to produce another 120 paid in full games. Substitute your own numbers, the principle is the same. Even if new CM will self finance and agrees to pay setup costs and parts, once they build 120 games, they will expect to be paid. 120 x $6.5k is approximately $800k DP would need, and doesn't have. What about the 40 delivered games ARA claims they were not paid 40 x $6.5k = $260k? Easily $1M obligations owed.
Short of using a Ponzi scheme - finding new people to pay in and actually fund pre-existing orders, fast and furious until the funds dry up and the wheels fall off and people are left empty handed. I can't envision a bank or CM volunteering to build them out of this hole either. The numbers don't add up and this money has likely been missing for between 12 and 30 months. We are having a healthy debate now because enough facts have come to light and the absense of TBLs.
The only way out for DP is to find an angel investor who is willing to pay more than what DP is worth. How much more, evidently $1M+. But they are not taking that approach, instead they mention a plan to target banks and wealthy CM's. Imho, whether you've paid in full or simply have a deposit down, DP's f*@k a stranger in the a$$ approach cannot succeed. The sooner they realize they need an angel investor to pay the bills and a CM (not self funded) to build the games, the sooner these games can be built. until then, everyday that passes, DP is yanking your chain.
Fortune cookie reads - Outlook murky, await reveal of financial and production plans and ask again.
Quoted from frolic:
It's mind blowing to consider that the we're wondering whether DP will have a working Lebowski at the 2017 Expo. 3 years after their big debut.
And it seems like the answer will be: no, no "new" prototype game at expo. If anything there will be a photo or video of a game running at the contract manufacturer, but that's it.
If that's true, then DP is doing things bass ackwards. First and foremost they should have a few final TBL's at Expo. Because people want to lay their eyes and hands on one. And having two games is better than one for many reasons. We want to be assured the game can handle being played endlessly while continuing to work flawlessly. Without TBL's at Expo, Jaap could skype in remotely and be projectd on the screen in the seminar room, thus saving the airfare and hotel expenses. But if DP brought some TBL's, people could judge for themselves. Dutch Pinball, why can't we see the final TBL?
Quoted from fosaisu:
Sure, but it sounds like the games haven't been made yet. So there's nothing new to show.
Which is kind of why they don't need to be spending time and money on a hype tour. Instead they should get a few games built and then bring them to first available pinball show. No games should equal no shows. Build it and they will come, don't hype it and run.
Quoted from titanpenguin:
I’m just glad to see they found a way to build all the TBLs. I could give two sh@ts less about the order they come out. Thanks for finding a way DP!
Now's the time to give those two less sh@ts, ensuring you couldn't care less. The fact EA's paid in full years ago and yet may need to wait another year for DP to get around to building their game is insulting. In the meantime, 200 new customers must come along and buy their $10k pinball. If DP is still in business a year from now, they will be delivering the paid in full games, if not ??? A lot that must go right before DP rights the wrongs of their company. I care deeply that it is at EA's expense and it is on their backs that this game hasn't collapsed under the weight of itself.
EA's should aspire to more than a t-shirt. EA's should receive a rug to tie the room together, 2 t-shirts and xeno head - all shipped now. Future benefit to include an LE backglass mounted in a powered light box.
The gift basket brings recognition and serves an immediate reward, while Owners continue to wait for their pin. It reminds them that they are not forgotten and their payments are valued. The lighted backglass is the real reward, and ships with the game as a little something extra. Of course, this is my opinion only and does not reflect what DP has agreed to, yet.
Quoted from foxtj24:
What will happen when ARA sues DP for the games they already shipped and did not get paid for? The ARA mess is not over yet. I heard a rumor that a lawsuit is in the works from ARA against DP seeking damages for the games they shipped and the games and parts they purchased and built.
That would be pretty nice deal indeed. Maybe they can also get all specialty equipment ARA may have purchased i.e. all assets thrown in for free. I would bet Jaap has the funds to cover this settlement and then have zero bank balance. This is only my guess, a wild hunch based on some things I've heard him mention in various interviews. If this proceeded, DP could procure and take over assembly of EA's TBL's right away. Two parties walk away whole. Suddenly it's ...
!! Full-steam O_head with DP>
and it's... !! Full-steam O_head with DP_China>
.......Imagine a world which on Jan 1, 2018, DP begins assembly of remaining 200 TBL's. But now with a settlement behind them, they possess 100 percent of the parts and playfields, allowing them to build locally. Using the original 2 large pcb design.
In a seperate universe DP_China> has received final parts and will having many engineered samples by Nov 1. They can now order 100% parts to build 200 new money TBL's. Since DP no longer had unpaid financial obligations hanging over head, this greatly reduces xytech's risk, and that should allow them to increase the project's line of credit, allowing them to start assembly in China on Jan1, 2018....
ok, I am not saying it's going to happen, but it's going to happen. :Rasputin!
Quoted from flynnibus:
There is a reason DP didn't just pay ARA already... losing a lawsuit doesn't make that outcome cheaper or better for DP.
Where in this fantasy are you getting the idea DP comes out ahead in a lawsuit with more funds than going in?
Nobody but JAAP and his god know for certain, but I believe he has $200k . So yeah I think this would be feasible. But could it be too difficult? or come to find out there is $0 dollars left to start with, then yeah buyers would be f$cked. Bummer man!! Opposite of certainty on spectrum. But it is certainly a possibility.
Quoted from flynnibus:
Just ask yourself... why didn't he do it already? If it really was an outcome where he comes out with more hardware and free cash - he would have done it before.
I don't disagree with what you write but I do with your assumption of why would Jaap approach ARA? as if that was the only way these two parties could have decided to talk. I thought Jaap approached ARA before and they didn't reach an agreement. Therefore he wrote that avenue off in his mind. He blogged about it or something. Maybe ARA has a change of heart and want to settle this lost causes. What if ARA Ais ready to settle and reached out to DP - agreeing to accept 25 cents on the dollar. In that case, it could happen. Remote chance I agree, but still ... by the way, I haven't heard anything about negotiations involving DP. I'm speculating based on a recently read post above in this thread that sounded reliable and then adding my two cents.
Quoted from RTR:
No trust necessary in this scenario. I mean, you have to trust that the distributors are not spending your deposits, but that's about it.
Distributors trust the boxes being received contain promised TBL, because they pay 100% based on physical box count. They don't cut open a few boxes to check the goods. It is not like in the movies when you have to spot test your bags of cocaine to make sure everything is up to snuff. They see 10 boxes, they pay for 10 games. I wouldn't expect anything to go wrong but it is a weak link in the distribution model.
Based on feedback and comments, the state of code is a significant concern. It factors into people's consideration and willingness to drop $10k, as it should. Buy the pin and there is no guarantee DP will finish software. This is not Stern, nor is there any implicit or explicit guarantee code will be finished. So don't buy a new money TBL UNTIL you are happy with the code.
Quoted from Mr68:
Has anyone pre-ordered or know of anyone that has ordered TBL 2.0 recently? I'm not talking about Early Achievers but new blood during these difficult times.
I realise my question is kind of useless here but I'm curious about how many they might have on the books.
The higher price and completely changed environment has me wondering.
The rumors was 300 TBL's were ordered by CT and Nitro. Your question is - how many of those are unassigned to a customer, right? What with some waiting lists, CT and Nitro may have a handful of games that people dropped out or that they overordered. I'll bet it is not many though. Hasn't pricing remained the same at each distributor - everyone gets the same deal?
Quoted from luvthatapex2:
The original price for EA games was $8500 US
That price was only for dealing directly with Dutch Pinball. You were given a little discount, congrats. You were also automatically qualifed as a TBL EA. Unfortunately that's the group of loyalists that are getting royally fu@ked. All new ordered pins, which it sounds like is really 100 TBLs are preordered and accounted for with customers from CT and Nitro. There also appears to be a wait lists that may be separate from existing orders.
So it doesn't seem there is a lack of buyers. Which means - as soon as DP can build the games, they can be sold and shipped. So what's the holdup? Also 200 EA's games should be built alongside these new builds. All vendors, suppliers and subcontractors MUST BE FULLY PAID too. Which then begs the question... how many additional orders beyond the 100 preorders are needed to put HP into the black? I'd be interested in one. Figure that's gonna be around early 2019 and $10k price point might make sense.
Too bad the building is grounded. Wish it could take off and and land around the world as the greatest permanent road show ever. A welcomed sighting everywhere. Have fun guys.
Nobody wins an extra ball anymore? 25 extra balls is like one per 300 games. Is this even being counted correctly?
Quoted from flynnibus:
Vendor execution for one thing. Actually getting delivery, inventorying... and then the early stages start. I take the comment as just them taking caution because they pretty much know they don't have the leverage to force dates on others. They'll probably take the cheapest route for parts in terms of time vs cost etc.
lesd time on parts can be brutal. This looks like maybe q2 next year...
Agree that parts should take at least 3 months to buildup and guessing they'd be ordering quantity to build 200 games. DP was pretty vague if the parts included boards and playfield but this might be best case scenario for last parts to arrive. The good news is that once they do, it will only be cashflow that slows production, parts will be in-house. At least they are following their outlined approach, even if timeline is off some. That actually provides some comfort. Build 5 engineering samples - done. Determine final BOM and order parts - current step. Start building games - likely 2Q18. Order next batch of parts for second batch of 200 games. Deliver first batch of 200 games - mix of new money and EA games - 2Q18 thru 4Q18. Deliver 2nd batch of 200 games 1Q19-2Q19.
One is an exclusive abnormality, while the other is a figment of your imagination.
Your argument that an original TBl should nose dive in price could only make sense if this were a few years in the future and once Chinese TBL's flood every corner of the globe. Until then, The 50 that are in the wild right now are all we have. Even at a future point in time, there is no reason to suspect they will be selling for less than a Chinese TBL - maybe yes maybe no, but nothing certain can be concluded. If you wanted TBL today, your choices are original or none.
Been a long time since any new code has been seen for Dutch-TBL. It was last mentioned in late 2017 with a comment that existing owners would see it soon. Is China-TBL holding revisions to old code hostage, like that rat Larry Sellers did?
Quoted from Yelobird:
Ok, not intentionally trying to make fun but DP has made a LOT of promises. You didn't actually expect them to uphold that one did you?? They are still (Working!?!) on promises made 5 years ago. lol
LoL no way. I wasn't so much disappointed by the broken promise (which was an oral contract but was thinking someone with info (or the programmers) might chime in and educate us all. Then we could bug them with questions about ease of updating and review a code log.
Quoted from Rensh:
The programmer Koen left like a year ago. Think priority will be to get the line running again and they did say if I am not mistaking that when that is done they will work on and release an update to 1.0. They told at that time they still have access to Koen (who is a personal friend of Barry).
Forgot you are the resident TBL expert ... so do you recall if Koen had been paid for his work, or was that part of the issue? I don't mind supporting a risky enterprise, but not one that is stiffing it's suppliers and contractors. I am particularly sensitive to unpaid programmers being put in a situation where they are expected to continue to support and upgrade software for free. As long as these folks are ok with things, I am too. Once that is cleared up, I tend to start paying attention.
If engineering #5 is ready, there is no reason not to have ordered parts to make hundreds of games. Well one big reason - no money, but if Investor Big decides he likes #5 and the final numbers, they'll be allowed to kiss his ring and the big wheels will start to move. All this means is for the next six months, expect to hear of part delays and progress so slow you can watch it happen. Everybody keeps getting strung along. Tune in then if you want new developments.
Quoted from Mr68:
Do they have an investor or anyone looking at them?
Not an external one, but the internal process describes a final stage sign off at Xytech. That means a signature by an executive such a VP, Pres or Board level. The cash infusion begins and we'll see what happens next.
Quoted from rubberducks:
What are you talking about? What executives (besides Barry & Jaap as directors), what board, what VPs, what president (CEO)? What cash infusion?
I've repeatedly heard people talk about a big money investor in DP, but when challenged to provide some evidence of it, they've never been able to and have backed down.
The aforementioned executives are in Xytech. Remembering Barry has little money remaining, it is 100% Xytech who will fund and deliver the games to new buyers and 150 Early Achievers. All new money will likely go immediately into their accounts receivable and get credited to the project. And Xytech will need to open a new internal project for tracking rented space, employee hours, training, procurement, parts, material control, cost control, cash flow etc. In short, they are paying for and then building and shipping games. Barry becomes the license holder and verifier of quality.
One of the last steps in the final stage for Xytech to green light a project is sign off by their executives. This isn't a simple contract build for them, they are also financing the whole thing. From Barry's posts they need the final product. This allows for a final BOM to be priced and for the final cost/benefit to be calculated for executives to approve. Once the t's are crossed, the money moves and the wheels of manufacturing TBL's start to turn. Nobody has evidence of Xytech's internal workflows so it is all hearsay.
Anybody hear whether Xytech Board approved this project and turned on funding faucet yet?
Had a bad dream about this one last night, boys. Seems the Xytech Board liked the final sample TBL's so much that they decided to own it. They will hold off certifying TBL is ready for manufacturing, indefinitely. Xytech will be cutting all ties with DP shortly. Since they posses a ready to build product AND were doing 100% of the work AND were providing 100% of the financing..., DP lost its luster, and all value. Bye bye DP, Xytech has decided to go it on alone. Which, according to Chinese laws, expects them to steal your technology and to ignore licensing concerns. More profits that way. .... Then I woke up sweating. Nobody saw a Dik Labrowski machine, right?
So now everyone understands TBL is dead and the chances of getting a prepaid machine are 0.0000% and falling. Time to deal with it and to put it to bed and without anger. I don't see any manufacturer making these games either. The only people with both relavent and current experience building TBL machines, live in Netherlands or China. But let's be honest and say the Netherlands court cases gets resolved by end of 2021 at the earliest, and however they turn out the license has expired. I don't the think Alien license will be renewed for any reason (even benjamins) given the prior experiences and liabilities with DP, so nobody will be able to make them new. And all companies are assumed to still be in business. But ..
Following questions are aimed at the world's greatest legal minds of Pinside: Suppose there are 50 fully built TBL in crates and there exist enough parts to build 50 complete games. Nobody has a license to make and sell more TBL games and we don't know who will end up possessing these games. But after the Netherlands cases are resolved...
1) If the games exist, can the owning party openly sell the 50 TBL's, given they were made at a time the license was active?
2) Could 50 games be "assembled" from the parts be openly sold under the original license agreement described above OR would they be forced to build and deliver them for free to the next 50 EA's on the list?
Quoted from Nilroc:
I also emailed Barry and Jaap to get a timeline on the latest ARA lawsuit. Got the same response as previous post
Should have asked follow up questions ... when will EA's be receiving their paid in full pins? Where's the money Lebowski? well we already know those answers are never and it's gone. Nothing left but a briefcase full of tidy whiteys.
Going to state the obvious, because some can't accept the truth ... here it is.
Nobody will manufacture more TBL's, ever. The license will not be renewed by licensor and there will be limited to no customer support available for any TBL game. Time to put a fork in this and to puncture hopes of someone emerging from ashes to begin making future TBL's. Early Achievers will be getting nothing.
When the Dutch lawsuit is over, ARA or DP will be owed a lot of money. It will be difficult for the party who owes to pay. There may be 40 machines already made and there may not be. Number might be closer to 10 or 20 games too. If the games exist, they will be awarded to one party and that party will wish to sell them immediately thereafter, if legal to do so. Proceeds from those games will go to company selling them.
Any additional lawsuits against DP, such as ones originating from US, if successful will not have any machines left from which to go after. At that point, lawsuits are targeting a money settlement against DP. If DP is successful in the Dutch lawsuits & if they collect damages against ARA (10% combined overall chance), they will be able to pay off a portion of the US lawsuits.
A generally accepted fact is that ARA has 40 built games built and parts to make more. However, I recall DP claim they went to the factory and there were no games. Someone is wrong here. For those that said DP only lied about a few things and if there are 40 games made, then DP is a pathological liar. Well they also lied many times between 2015 to 2017 about having enough money to build games - every day they didn't warning buyers of their fatal financial problems. DP is on the downside of the slippery slope they've created. Very unDude!
It is understandable that a few EA's believe their game may still arrive (eternal optimists and delusional dreamers) and should be given more time to grieve. Bottom line is that no one will be making more TBL's, ever. License will have expired and studio won't reup because of the DP fiasco. If the 40 game exist, they will be sold.
Reading parts of this thread I refound ARA's response over a year ago as to why they stopped producing games. They claim non payment, which makes logical sense. Speculation was DP was mostly out of the money or had a little but far short of what was neded.
Quoted from rubberducks:
Didn't sign anything?
Do you really think Xytech execs would have been stupid enough to fly to Expo in Chicago and expound the virtues of their supposed deal, given what had happened with ARA, without anything in writing?
Let's not stray too far into fantasy land.
DP signed plenty of documents. Yep and every penny was accounted for.
Also wondering how people can get DP to refund their full payment. I'll bet many are willing to swear allegiance to the Nihilist's Oath, adopt a marmoset or know the magic phrase is the Dude Abides. What seems more likely is a deposit refund from Cointaker.
Quoted from JimB:
And those of us left will move up in line.
the bad news is the line doesn't lead anywhere or to anything.
Quoted from Dkjimbo:
Well there’s this....
Only a half million euros? Well at least we know roughly how bad the financial picture is.
Does anyone else think this is DP themselves setting this up? So the whole go fund me is basically just a raffle to raise half a million euros. Ok, got it.
Donate now .... and win TBL pinball later, much later props to the video though, it is edited really nicely.
Voices sound like a bunch of nihilists....
Several things wrong about this gofundme. One obvious issue is DP is not associated with nor endorses this effort, so other than the illustrious reputation of Seattle 7, who's to say they would turn over collected funds? While video is entertaining, there were numerous omissions from the storyline. As stated there is no timeline given, and more importantly where were the movie scenes from TBL that discuss money? And what did DP do with the money they were entrusted with the first time?
Again I ask DP, Where's the fu@king money Lebowski? The preorder money, is it still safe in the escrow account? What, there never was a plan to set aside 50% of money to actually build the games? WTF, these guys are clowns!
Two days and 1/1000th of the way to goal. Without a miracle folks, listen for death rattles by September. What happens when a gofundme falls short of goal, everything vanishes?
Don't get distracted by the shiny lights. It doesn't matter who was right. The whole reason why -
1) first container of games wasn't paid
2) why $1k cost increase wasn't paid
3) 49/51 deal with ARA didn't work
4) why a restart deal with ARA didn't work
5) why litigation wasn't started by DP a year ago
6) why license renewal won't take place
6) why production by xytech won't commence
Dutch Pinball is out of money. Now that wasn't so hard to say.
Quoted from Ballypinball:
I think you will find the $500euro is what is needed to payout ARA for what is owed and games in their possession.
Then plan is sell them for $20k each which would get $600k us back, then proceed with new production in china.
Only problem is them raising $500k euro? Any billionaires out there?
DP's goal appears to be raise an unsecured $600k based on people's charity. This money will not be used to pay for 40 hostage games. No the money is for legal fees, and remember in Dutch courts the loser pays for winners legal fees, so they need will need twice as much money. If DP used the funds to buy the games from ARA, they would need to ship them to EA's, not resell them a second time. That is what they should do. I don't know if shipping this number of units will allow them to satisfy all preorders, but it might be close.
DP would need another $600k to $1M to start production imo, there are lots of upfront costs and production to be floated until new sales can be collected. For that kind of capital they need to win any lawsuits and collect the judgements. Part of that ruling might include the judge telling ARA to go fu@k themselves and to destroy the games. DP doesn't want those games shipped, and they are not your friend. They want those games gone so their new venture can produce them. DP would never voluntarily strike a deal with ARA based on their history. But without new investment or a judgement against ARA, production at Xytech won't be starting anytime soon. So if Xytech appears to be starting up, remember it is only a ruse.
ARA has 40 games and wants 1) to be paid first before proceeding and DP has no money. So DP would have to agree to sell those games to new buyers and then they would pay everything to ARA. Their case settled. Maybe that is where the talks lead. Prolog - But then ARA will quit answering the phone calls from DP and DP will be forced to admit no more games will be built. aka ARA's best play if they want to cash out. OR
2) ARA wants 51% of the company so maybe they'd relieve the debt for majority ownership stake. And then they'd release the games to DP who could ship them to EA's. Their case settled. Maybe that is where the talks lead. Prolog - ARA cranks it up and produces games but will need to go back to the sell 2 games and gift 1 LE to an EA. This plan would be a long slog and have 0 chance of success. But it is still a direction that could be chosen. aka DP's best short term option. OR
3) ARA is playing DP for chumps. DP is insolvent. DP knows it and ARA will remind DP they know it too. Therefore see outcome #2 but we see you are desperate and can smell the fear. You have gone too far and we are vindictive SOBs so now we want 90% of company. And tell the EA's, 1 pin shipped to EA for every two pins we sell. The policy stands. aka the nuclear option.
Quoted from Toucanf16:
Regarding the holiday... I emailed DP six days ago about a TBL PF and plastics set. Jaap responded in 12 hours asking about an address to calculate shipping. I answered in just over an hour. I haven't heard back. Guess their holiday started as soon as he sent his first email. Wonder if I'll ever get the playfield?
wtf? DP advertised spare parts for sale, took your money and then it turns out the plastics weren't run. Congrats on your parts Preorder. I thought preorder model was dead but now see DP has successfully applied this to their parts biz. Now we need to follow thread closely to see if you successfully get what you recently ordered. Glad I never bid on the engineering sample game now. Anybody know if a Pinsider was high bidder?
Quoted from Dkjimbo:
Have the lawyers gone out for their lunch again yet after meeting once with no outcome other than agreeing to meet again?
The lawyers agreed to order the same thing off the lunch menu that day. They couldn’t agree what to get (1 holdout), so all went home feeling right, but hungry. And we know nothing happens on an angry stomach. Local weather reporters noted a thick, black cloud of smug above the building that day. #tbl_pinball-that.ship.has.sailed.and.it.sunk# or #tbl_pinball-remaining.ea’s.in.lifeboats.believe.ship.will.be.raised.repaired.andsetsail.with.them.onboard.until.happy.conclusion...wow!dreamers#
Quoted from colonel_caverne:
Whatever the outcome, there are several machines built at ARA. So, what will become of them?
They are not going to be destroyed or will not be resold knowing that they are the property of the buyers
They should push them off the factory roof - Todd Tuckey TNT style
^ .... just kidding, I would never advocate violence against machines. TBL's will most likely being liquidated through a handful of currently unknown distributors. These will be advertised and sold to individuals with cash. So if you expect to buy one, start putting aside money now and save up between $10k to $15k. You will hear about it here with plenty of time, and if you are willing to pay, you will get one imo.
Can someone recap the approx money at risk by class? Something along the lines of
180 paid in full to DP ~ 8.5k
50 refundable deposits @ Distributors ~ $1k
I am trying to put the general malaise into perspective. If 180 people in a niche industry lost $8.5k, that is a big impact on the market. Maybe 90 of that class are on Pinside and they should meet and connect with the other 90 folks to discuss how to better their situation. The rest of Pinside who follow this thread have no skin in the game. Many of us here have strong opinions about past events and also wish to see games made and EA’s to get what they paid. But the bubble has burst, that time has passed and things are FU@KED!! The 40 boxed TBL will be sold and I blame Dutch nihilists
Quoted from Rarehero:
So can we call it? This thing is dead.
Take the lid off the can and look for yourself.
2.5 years ago DP was on life support and it died 1 year ago. Some have seen it wiggling, but those claims are unsubstantiated. This company and TBL pinball are dead, and remain dead until further notice.
Quoted from sd_tom:
yeah, it is a timing thg to do that regularly.
if its happening regularly that the balls is running faster than the computer thinks and hits a static down position pin, i'd be looking for ways to slow the ball down a hair. i'd first adjust level of the game.. a steeper playfield makes a less steep bowling alley to see how far you are out. if the game is too steep before the timing corrects then I'd look into how i could shim rhe bowling alley independent of cabinet.
What happens after ball is released, does it even matter where the ball travels? So game could be setup 1” high on right side (be totally out of keel) and you could release the ball aligned but ball would become a gutter ball on the left side because of the imbalance. But because of your release, it scores as a strike????
If any of that is accurate, how would changing pitch of game to slow down the ball help because the ball doesn’t make contact with pins?
Quoted from fosaisu:
There’s definitely potential there, and if DP goes into bankruptcy maybe you can scoop up their part of the rights for cheap at an auction. The rest just depends on if Universal is still willing to play or if they don’t want their property associated with this mess for the peanuts that a pinball license brings in. I’m sure they’ve seen it all though, and they do like money.
In the instance someone buys Dutch Pinball and successfully licenses TBL from Universal (big if’s) … they could build and sell TBLs. They would not have rights to the 40 built games nor would they be compensating EA’s who’ve lost money. They would be starting with a clean balance sheet (minus liability for their original investment and licensing deal). Still it’s not an easy task to run a pinball company and without expertise to manufacture the games, they too might flail in the wind and burn through cash.
The best outcome would include the new owner negotiating separately with ARA to buy the 40 built games at discounted $5k (each would need to be opened, inspected, tested, repaired, boxed and shipped to their warehouse) and to sell them for $10k. If ARA is owed money on the built pins and DP doesn't pay, they won't be willing to sell their games to the new Owner. The Owners should also negotiate with American Pinball to build TBL’s. Someone with an existing factory who will contract manufacture a few hundred pinball machines. Don't build a new factory - that is a total waste of money unless they expected to sell thousands of TBL's, which is not the case here. Every scenario points to EA’s being left out of recovering lost funds, but the games would get made.
A bigger problem with a resolution is in the new Owner not realizing that the game should be refined further BEFORE production. This was a mistake HP Owners made - they assumed Alien was ready to go and started to make them. With Xeno heads needing further testing and improvement, some circuit boards being prone to failure and alignment issues during assembly - no one was responsible for engineering fixes, qc’ing the design nor bulletproofing the game.
We already know about issues with TBL’s toys - bowling alley, car and rug needing adjustments. These should be fixed before starting production. Upgrading the software with code already developed and further polishing the software is also needed to make this game sing. Any new Owner needs to be prepared to pay to play for software development. Odds of this project proceeding and the above happening is maybe 1%.
As the case wasn’t resolved by the judge and him suggesting the parties make a deal, that indicates this case isn’t a slam dunk for DP as they’ve suggested. Without a hint from the judge as to who is right, they probably both are partially wrong. They’ve tried working this out before and I don’t expect them to come off their own position or to compromise when each feels they are in the right.
Also DP owes ARA for 50 delivered games plus 40 prebuilt games in warehouse. So 90 games x $5.5k is $500k that DP owes AND we know they don’t have anywhere near that amount. The only solution for ARA to be paid is for DP to agree to sell them to new buyers. Sell 40 games at 12.5k equals $500k and pay ARA for balance due and they will be made whole. Early Achievers won’t receive anything and 40 more games would hit the market and then no more will be made.
ARA will be unwilling to continue working with DP to build more pins because of all the nonsense DP created. As for settling charges from the lawsuit by both parties and damages to to both companies, the judge may consider that to be an even swap of costs ruling each party to absorb what they’ve expended to date.
Also Universal will be unwilling to work with ARA or their successor because of all the nonsense that has gone on. Further the license will be expired and that might complicate the ability to resell the 40 games, hopefully not. As for whom provides customer service on the 90 pins already produced, that would fall to DP. But with no money and no future stream of money, it will be minimal to none.
Barry and Jaap should have been honest in the newsletter by adding language, even if we prevail in the lawsuit, we will not be able to give games to the EAs who paid in full nor refund deposits for those partially in. That way people could still root for the company to close down in an orderly fashion, to offer 40 more games to the world and to provide technical support on games made. It is not a feel good story but it would allow the current story to end better than it istands now.
What parts, mechanisms or components on TBL are prone to breaking and are considered impossible to find ?? What assemblies are the most common ones to not work? Also curious what level the software is running on?
Asking to determine where the risks are to owning this game. There were 50 TBL’s released vs maybe 150 Aliens. Much has been documented about repairing Alien and some solutions were engineered. A big factor with Alien’s maintenance is that following the crash of Heighway, critical replacement parts were found and made available in the market. As a result of all the above, it is possible to operate and play Alien without much stress. So what’s the skinny on TBL?
Quoted from adol75:
It’s a blackjack bet. You bet 8.500$ and get a 17.000$ machine or lose it all.
More like you bet $8.500 at the roulette wheel. It is exciting while the wheel spins but when it stops and the ball is caught, you’ve lost it all. Then you find out there was never even a .001 percent chance of winning. It’s a suckers bet - thanks for playing. You get nothing! You Lose! Good day Sir!
Quoted from phil-lee:
Just in time (JIT) Manufacturing procedures were implemented in the early 90's and are still used Globally.
Time for me to back away (again). I still feel like one day I will own one of these machines, or a like copy. Until then enough has been said.
Neither DP nor ARA will make any more TBL and if believe they will, then you are delusional. And Early Achievers are already F’d up the ass.
Best case scenario - judge awards full rights to ARA, allowing them to sell hostage games and keep the money. So 40 built games hit the market before ARA leaves pinball manufacturing. This will be soon followed by DP declaring insolvency and choking off ongoing litigation. Life goes on.
2019 prediction *** with case resolved by mid-year, Xytec aka DP East, will purchase the license from ARA and begin manufacturing and selling perfect TBL, without offering customer support. But what do you expect for $15k? As I could see that happening, that makes me delusional too.
Quoted from titanpenguin:
.. but I’m coming to believe that I don’t think they have all us EA’s best interests in mind anymore.
and it only took 8828 posts to figure it out oh well, I peeked under the waters surface in 2017 and saw DP was an iceberg, and knew EA’s were sunk. Be 2018 no money remained, yet DP owed money all over town - Jackie Treehorn style. These are bad businessmen so one should be leery of them and remain very aware. Approach with caution but better yet, avoid this pair like the plague.
Quoted from RTR:
I will go ahead and write the next update for Barry, I know he has been busy.
Dudes - sometimes the bear eats you and by you I don't mean us, I mean you. Your money is all gone and you are not getting a TBL. We are so so very sorry. We did our best and did everything 100% right. Despite our best efforts (which rocked - remember the parties?!) ARA screwed us, but also you. Mainly you.
If only we had more money, we might have been able to prevail in court, but alas, ARA outspent us and the judge (who doesn't understand pinball or contracts or genius) did not see