I like the Folgers topper. It's clean, relevant, and didn't cost you $165.
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2 months later
@pinballslave (and all that contributed):
Thanks for coordinating the FAQ! This was a pleasant email to discover/read this morning. Hopefully, this should hold off any negativity or doubts for the time being.
1 month later
1 month later
1 week later
We're less than 1 month away from Expo. I imagine it's coming soon, but an update or hint on what Achievers can expect at Expo would be cool.
Quoted from genex:DP has a seminar at Expo so I suspect something outta that
Definitely! It's one of the main reasons why I'm attending this year. Unfortunately, I couldn't attend Expo last year, so I'm selfishly hoping for something beyond the seminar at this year's show. Fingers crossed. I'm positive we'll hear something momentarily.
No one seems to mind the missing "$" in the word LEBOWSKI on the plaque, but it would be nice if they could fix it for consistency. This could be fixed on the tool, but it may not be worth it since: a) it's a limited run b) they probably already manufactured them.
2 weeks later
1 week later
Quoted from Dr_Spaceman:Maybe I'm being very Undude not rolling along with this, but it feels like we never get the full story.
I want to believe, but can't shake the nagging doubt.
At the end of the day, you have to feel comfortable with YOUR money/investment.
I encourage you to wait it out, at least for another 2 months. You can always get your money back before it ships. If you're having doubts, do what it takes to make you sleep comfortably at night. It's only a game.
Quoted from Dr_Spaceman:Can I? It was my understanding the full refund time period has passed.
You can definitely get your $$$ back.
I personally feel the game is over-budget or at least very close to it. If you disagree with me, at least make your counterpoint.
The exchange rate is hurting the bottom line for those doing business in Europe. The Euro took a beating over the last year, but it is still in DP's favor to get this game out ASAP and sell as many as possible before the Euro is in line with the US dollar.
China's economy has a bad cold right now and it's about to give the rest of the world the cooties in the very near future. Don't believe for a second that China can't implode. And let's not pretend there isn't a real estate/tech bubble in the US, Canada, UK, Australia, China, and elsewhere. This and the fact that 2016 is an election year in the US. Our job market may be doing well right now, but people aren't getting raises and Millennials aren't spending. Retirement costs are rising faster than Social Security benefits. I could go on. Wait until April when the corporate Q1 '16 earning reports start coming out. It is going to start getting rocky. This affects all of us. Any pin collector should think twice about their NIB purchases (and financial strength) moving forward. We're technically overdue for what lies ahead. And don't be surprised to see a surplus of pins and other "toys" for sale over the next few years as people prioritize their discretionary income (or deal with job losses). I'm willing to bet money with anyone that doubts what I'm stating here.
I think DP would love to charge more for this game, but do what you have to do. At least, keep these economic factors in mind. If you're going to pull the trigger, why spend more later?
Quoted from jlm33:You are kidding, right? Because this is the exact opposite. They make more money for games sold in the US than expected. Price for US customers is in US dollars. So they were suppose to earn $8,000 (or $8,500, can't remember) / 1.36, and now /1.11...when translated in euros.
/ stands for "divided by". Dividing by 1.36 gives a lower figure than dividing by 1.11...
'
You're exactly right and I apologize for the confusion. I'm typing on my Surface without the keyboard cover and watching The Walking Dead at the same time. I should've finished my edit, so please forgive me! You're definitely correct. $8500 US this time last year was 6,662€, while it is 7,480€ today. The real point I intended to make was the difference in the drop in local currency. Yes, most games will be shipped to US, but there is little or no room for margin especially with container freight and so forth.
Quoted from Rick432:And if, in fact, DP intends to so more future business in dollars, shouldn't they simply keep their dollar sales as dollars, using them to fund purchases required to be in dollars?
That's a great question and I don't have that answer as we don't know how they distributed or invested our money. At any rate, a weak Euro still affects DP in many ways. Think about the freight costs to the US. It's now going to cost more than originally projected. This eats away at what's presumed to be already-low margins.
Supposedly, the proto sold for around $25K (unconfirmed), which blows my mind. Clearly, there's a market for this game, whether it's shipping or not.
Quoted from MikeHogue:This was the most depressing post that I've read in a long time!
I wasn't trying to go off-topic or be a know-it-all / downer, but it's an unfortunate reality for every single one of us, especially when it's an $8500 purchase at stake.
And if you think THAT'S bad, then there's El Nino 2015/16, which climate experts are expecting to be the worst on record. 
It's definitely going to get hairy. You know there's a problem when it's 100 degrees in October with flash flooding and tropical sea snakes showing up on LA beaches. I know the UK is sweating the nasty, white-out winter that's being projected. I hope it's tame and passes over for the sake of our global economy. We're already standing on shaky ground and this is the last thing we need.
So what can you do? Stay inside and play (or make) some pinball!
I didn't mention the decline of bars and nightclubs over the past 10 years:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-your-favorite-neighborhood-bar-is-closing-2015-10-09
http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/14/news/pubs-uk-beer-alcohol/
Factors include online dating, longer work hours, student tuition, smoking bans, Netflix, lower alcohol consumption, crappy music, and so on.
The pin community is certainly doing its part, but the landscape is definitely changing.
Quoted from Rensh:Big part of Holland is below seal level so we don't need a floating TBL, we all know how to swim
However, rest assured. DP factory lies in the part which is above sea level
Europe, Northern Africa, and most of Asia should be OK, so DP can't use El Nino as an excuse! 
3 weeks later
Quoted from thedarkknight77:Why don't we just call this game what it is.......Magic Girl 2.
1 week later
Many thanks to Tommy from Nitro. Your photos got me humming "Lookin' Out My Back Door." We're in the home stretch.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:It's a nice game and many will enjoy. Just not for me anymore.
At least you have Full Throttle. Either way, major props for your support of the boutiques.
Quoted from thedarkknight77:I wish you guys the best, but it's clear to me, someone needs to beat you guys over the head with a stick! Spooky, Heighway, those are two new companies that you can trust, everyone else are just wanna be boys............ Papa Knight warned you.
1 week later
Quoted from zucot:Im not drinking another white russian until I take delivery of my game. Hurry the hell up, DP.
I think all of us will be upset if you end up getting your "1-Year Sobriety Chip."
2 weeks later
Quoted from iceman44:By comparison, the Dutch boys have their heads up their arse.
Respectfully disagree.
2 months later
1 week later
I am a little disappointed and underwhelmed myself and I've been a big proponent of DP. Once again, we are left out of the mix before/after a major pinball show. The preorder folks have to count on others to get updates on their purchase. It should not be this way.
1 month later
1 week later
Quoted from medic0000:Relax.
I don't recall anyone freaking out. Some of us are in the back of the preorder bus. At this rate, I may be singing "Touch of Grey" when my machine finally arrives.
Quoted from flynnibus:The game still has some ball trap issues (like behind the flipper on the mini PF)
Good to know. Thanks for sharing.
FWIW, balls were dropping off the upper playfield in early engineering samples, hence the guard behind that flipper.
1 week later
Quoted from Hjbondar:egads - that makes me container 8. (#147).
A few of us West Coasters (including Canada) are in the 140s, so I imagine we will receive at the same time.
I haven't heard "Lookin' Out My Back Door" in the new code. Are the various tracks accessible in the menu?
Quoted from FlipperFreak:We had a great time at the show and were thrilled to have The Big Lebowski at our booth. Thanks to all of those who stopped by and patiently waited in line to hang with The Dude!
I hope you sold a few!
Quoted from RTR:Just kidding. Bored, sitting here waiting on the slow boat with #19 on it.....
You were way too nonchalant about it. We're counting on your report when it does finally land.
I haven't seen any of the early Achievers state they regret their purchase, so I'm taking this as a good sign of things to come.
Quoted from bemmett:Get some people working on my game so we can get that boat moving!!!!
They're Dutch. Lots of "coffee" breaks. 
1 month later
Jeff Bridges says he's all in for starring in a "Big Lebowski" sequel: "It's a great idea"
http://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bridges-on-big-lebowski-sequel-2016-7
1 week later
Quoted from sd_tom:He won't let us down, he's not a nihlist
I'm looking forward to your review as well!
Quoted from sd_tom:I splurged for 4 day fed ex vs 8 day freight.
Yikes. Let's hope Ace Ventura isn't working your route that day...
Quoted from Bearcat:These Lebowski's deserve to rest on one of these... Would tie the game room together.
ebay.com link » Rra 9x12 Rug Indo Persian Kashan Red Field Rug 23562
This will do the trick.
2 weeks later
1 week later
According to this morning's NSNL, "our next container will contain 42 games and last week we produced 8 games."
2 weeks later
What happened to the soundtrack? It seems limited to only 3-4 songs. I thought CCR's "Lookin' Out My Back Door" was in the game, but I haven't heard it in shipped games.
Quoted from sd_tom:Like a year ago? they announced it wasn't feasible (licensing issue). All custom instrumentals now. A version of that song is used in multiball.
Thanks Tom. I was at Expo when they announced the licensing issue, but there was no clarity on which instrumental tracks actually made it in the game. Earlier code versions had "Lookin' Out My Back Door" in regular game play, which I was really digging on. It seemed to disappear in code v0.41 and later versions, but as you confirmed, I guess it was moved to multiball. I'm still curious to know the final tracklist and whether more instrumentals will be added.
2 weeks later
Quoted from kklank:10k is a lot of dough.
Based on these 2016 Expo announcements, $10K is becoming the entry point! 
I say ride it out. The early Achievers seem to be pleased.
2 weeks later
Quoted from genex:Looks like I'll be routing my TBL! Wonder if this will be the first one on location outside of the test machine in the Netherlands?
Any idea on where you'll place it? I'm curious to hear back on how it does out in the wild.
2 weeks later
3 weeks later
Quoted from pinghetto:I'll settle for any new info now. Code, manufacturing, whatever!!
I've supported multiple Kickstarter/Indiegogo projects at <$300 and received far more updates and engagement during the development cycle vs. this $8,500 machine. Don't get me wrong. I love DP and what they're doing, but consistent communication goes a long way.
Quoted from Lamberger:And #2 for Canadians on most expensive pinball machine next to BBB.
That's the price you pay for having better health care and bacon than us. 
1 month later
Quoted from Who-Dey:You actually had to pay in 2014 to order one? How much?
It was $8500 in full or you could break it down in payments up until production started (which was a year ago).
Can an early Achiever please kindly post video of the new software in action? Many thanks in advance.
Quoted from ryandimx:Is cointaker the only place to get one or are all of them spoken for?
Yes. CT and Nitro (Canada), but unsure on overall/final production run numbers.
Quoted from flynnibus:Many components have very long lead times (months even) or undergo their own lifecycle revisions. Hardware engineers have to manage these 'unavoidable' changes in supply chain all the time. But usually you try to vet these changes before you impact the production line.. but with so low volumes.. your lack of inventory hurts you in these situations.
Something is not adding up. It doesn't take months to print 250 new boards.
Quoted from flynnibus:just pointing out the realities that manufacturers deal with that the general public may not realize can happen. That's part of what you work on when you work with a manufacturer to take your concept or prototype to a design that is buildable. Supply chain is a big deal.
It could have been a bad build.
I am very familiar with PD, manufacturing, and delays, so I understand your points and where you are coming from. DP may be ARA's mercy. Who knows?
This is why I respect and admire the early Achievers who have received their machines. They're providing tremendous feedback that will improve manufacturing, hardware reliability, QC, and software for existing/future units. Unfortunately, it's the price you pay when you're an early adopter "guinea pig." This is a good group here and I've learned a lot from the various contributors.
I love DP. IMO, TBL is the "complete pinball package" and still has a ton of potential. I'm hoping for a killer follow-up title.
Bumping for hope, even though there's much more action going on in the Austin Powers Owner's Club thread.
1 week later
Quoted from kidchrisso:I called Melissa a week ago and never recieved a call back..
It's because you have Cheech as your profile pic. 
First off, props to pinghetto
Rarehero and any others who took the initiative to get answers (even though we're all still confused). Pinside has some super sleuths!
Like I stated before, I knew this wasn't just about PCB boards. It just didn't add up. Unfortunately, DP has to eat the $1000 "cost-up." It's on them to negotiate strict terms in the manufacturing agreement (penalties on production delays, quantities, FOB, quality control, etc.).
This is why I was slightly annoyed when DP did the ARA factory tour back in November. I felt it was a bit premature to start celebrating, especially since the majority of customers seem to be based in the US or Canada. They should have focused on shipping ALL preorder games instead of drinking Caucasians and bowling with customers. Just my 2 cents.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Pinball manufacturing is a black hole as far as cash needed.
Pinball collecting is a black hole too!
I do hope DP will provide us with details before providing them to the public at TPF next month. I don't know why they're wasting time/money promoting the game at TPF if it's "sold out" at 300.
Quoted from Ed_in_Texas:Where does DP or TPF say they are promoting TBL? We only said Jaap would be giving a DP update, talking to guests, and playing pinball.
No need to get defensive. Do you have $8500 tied into this game? We shouldn't have to get "a DP update" via a trade show. It would be nice to get updates directly, especially when you have $8500 invested in the game.
I had to go to Pinball Expo in Chicago to learn they didn't have the rights to the original music. This pissed off many preorder owners because they waited to announce it at the show instead of communicating it to preorder customers before the general public.
And I still stand by my original statement. DP should stay should stay the F*ck home until they ship all their games. "Playing pinball and talking to guests" shouldn't be their priority right now.
Quoted from Rensh:My thoughts are with Barry and Jaap and Koen. I know them much better as many of you, consider them as friends, and for what's it worth to you : I know they really really care and are hurt to. They do their best and are human like you and me.
The team at DP is super talented. No doubt about it. Programming is definitely one of their strong points, however, the same can't be said for their communication. You (@Rensh) were the actual one providing us with updates/videos, so thank you again!
I think the majority of preorder customers would've remained patient and cool with this delay had the truth been revealed sooner. Radio silence and white lies create speculation and doubt.
Quoted from Rarehero:Mmmm....yeah, so - yeah...I don't want to "sit back and watch". I want FACTS. I want to know why my game has been held hostage for ~5 months. I want to know at what point the relationship completely broke. I want to know if there have been talks within that time period or if they were just waiting each other out. Dutch claims ARA is breaching contract...I want to know if they've lawyered up. If not, why not, and when? I want to know who they're talking to to take over from ARA. I want to know what happens to the games sitting at ARA if they find someone new.
I want to know EVERYTHING so I can make an informed decision about how to proceed further on my end.
I want to know what love is!
Quoted from Frogman:I'll take the opinion of someone who misspells a word or uses poor grammar over one who condescends to make himself feel superior.
Eye uhgree!
Quoted from Rarehero:So then - can they find someone else to build the rest?
Even then, I can't see it being a smooth process. You're lucky because your machine is mostly likely already assembled and packed. They just need to ship it whereas we don't know when #100-#300 will be completed.
Someone mentioned they're still waiting on a bowling mech replacement. I hope this isn't an indication of the challenges we will face in the future with any "not-off-the-shelf" replacement parts. Communication from DP is already bad enough.
Quoted from jlm33:Neither have shipped before the first batch of TBL.
(Not trying to find an excuse for DP)
Agree. Magic Girl only consists of 25 games but you get my point. I'll be bummed if Planetary, Spooky, or even Stern announce and ship a new game before we receive our TBLs. Life is too short, so I'd like to be alive if/when they get around to shipping this game. I wouldn't feel so strongly if they provided consistent communication or didn't collect full payment way in advance.
Quoted from dmbjunky:Didn't you expect this? It's a new private company making it's first pin. There was always a high chance this was the only pin they would ever make IF they were able to make it.
You're not buying a Stern which has a strong past and future.
I appreciate your wisdom and insight, but there's risk in everything no matter whether you're established or not. And yes, I expected them to have parts readily available, even during production. How is that wrong?
I bought this machine because it WASN'T a Stern and still stand behind my decision.
Perhaps Homepin will get the Chinese interested in pinball. There are a few ex-pat spots in Shenzhen so hopefully there's opportunity to attract new pinheads in that region. More accessibility, variety, and competition is better for all of us in the long run.
Quoted from flynnibus:1) A common sense contract would have resolutions written in for non-performance / aka missing a deadline... not "you failed, price increase off the table" and the deadlock they are in now. No way ARA would agree to a contract that simply says "perform, or you get zero". A new agreement would replace the prior agreement, not some 'fallback'.
I share your opinion too. ARA would/should have to legally eat any cost-up differences after production began. The news of a 2nd game shows that DP was looking to lock down manufacturing and save with larger quantities beyond TBL. Who knows? It appears that ARA doesn't need DP's business, otherwise, an agreement would have been reached by now.
Quoted from RTS:The news of the existence of a 2nd game potentially ready for production in December sounds ridiculous.
Agree. The code for TBL still needs love.
Quoted from unigroove:I can only speak for myself, but I'm confident DP will find a solution for this situation.
There was a interesting bit from your great article covering the TBL party from February 2016:
http://www.pinball-magazine.com/?p=2864
"Walter (ARA's Operation Manager) then went on to explain how they came to the final bill of material for the game and how they streamlined the assembly of the game."
DP is obviously denying any wrongdoing on their end, so perhaps someone can get Walter (or ARA) to explain how/where things went wrong on the "final bill of material."
Quoted from Razorbak86:TBH, I'm surprised you bought a TBL, given the tenor of your posts in the other thread (now closed).
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-usa-refund-still-want-the-game?tq&tu=Eggbert52
Those pesky Russians must've hacked him!
Quoted from genex:my TBL is on location
A great location too. I almost dropped by to play it last Friday night, but have a hard time dropping (more) coin into a game that I have at home (in this case, a game that I'm waiting on). Is anyone else this way?
Anyways, your feedback has been great and insightful. I also love your contribution and passion to the hobby with photography. I wish you great success operating TBL out in the wild. The Early Adopters really do help later purchasers in terms of quality control, so please know it doesn't go unnoticed.
Quoted from o-din:When did Dutch pinball last post in this thread?
Quoted from wellarmed:Seems like the only people who complain about code are those that haven't their machines yet or cancelled their preorder.
And? I don't see anything wrong with being concerned with code progression. Some people have been waiting 3 years for this machine to ship. KISS 2.0 code may be incomplete, but at least I can physically put one in my house right now. I can't say the same for TBL.
I hope Jaap explains how he plans to refund preorder customers who are tired of waiting for TBL. I should be able to put my money towards a pin that's shipping.
As much as I love state fairs, Tex-Mex, and BBQ, we shouldn't have to travel to Dallas or hop on Pinside to get an update on our $8,500 investment that was due (and expected) quite some time ago. This is what bothers me the most about DP.
I admittedly come off as grumpy, but just want DP to communicate more openly. We are their lifeline should they ever announce/launch game #2.
They're great at designing, but not-so-good with transparency.
Quoted from Rick432:To some degree, I find their limited response reassuring and consistent with how a responsible party involved in prospective legal action behaves. As opposed to morons who type out poorly thought but legally admissible statements on internet forums.
Could be just old-fashioned take-the-money-and-run, but I don't think that's consistent with DP behavior. And so much money has already been sunk into this that all the parties involved should have a large incentive to work this out, invest the relatively little more effort required to make more pins, and reap the crop.
So unhappy, but not pitchforky yet.
Your profile pic makes me read your posts in Alfred Hitchcock's voice (while his theme music plays in my head).
Quoted from NJGecko:That's one side of basically saying the other side is wrong, and providing it by third party.
We're expected to "hold our water" until they figure it out.
None of us have anything in writing in terms of a sales agreement with DP (or Cointaker). We also don't have the backing of a credit card company to support our payments to DP/Cointaker. I don't know the law in The Netherlands, but DP would get annihilated here in the US if it came down to legal action. I don't think a Dutch judge would be keen with DP holding customer funds hostage until they worked out a solution with their contract manufacturer. Too much time has elapsed and there's a lack of transparency/communication from DP. Game over. Not our problem!
If a performer cancels and/or reschedules their event, Ticketmaster doesn't hold your money until the performer reschedules or returns to that venue/city. They immediately refund your money and it's up to the consumer to re-purchase should the performer return. DP should do the same (sans $1,000 preorder deposits). That's more than fair.
To put it bluntly, I've got 99 problems but DP and ARA's issues "ain't" one.
Quoted from rubberducks:What would be nicer is if TPF (and other shows) finally started recording all the seminars and posting them to YouTube immediately .. it's so easy technically and logistically to do these days, and ideally live stream them.
I agree on the ability to watch seminar streams, but preorders shouldn't have to watch a seminar stream (or logon to Pinside) to get an update on their purchase. As Frolic mentioned, DP has a history of informing us AFTER public announcements.
Quoted from Rarehero:How do I put this nicely.....if you were fortunate enough to get your game already....how should I say this....um.....SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Send it to me if you're sick of it already. My game is being held hostage. Wanna trade places!?
I get where you're coming from @Rarehero, but keep in mind that bemmett had (or still has?) trouble with his unit. Not all is peachy with those who actually have their game. He is one of the few that has been providing feedback and insight so that the rest of us benefit if/when we do get our games. I certainly appreciate it and I'm sure you do too. It was also first come, first served on preorders. You can't take any hostility out on him, just like I can't be mad at you for being ahead of me.
There's also nothing wrong with expressing frustration or doubt. I'd rather get a straight opinion vs. smoke up my pipe.
Quoted from TRAMD:I apologize for the way my post comes across now that I read it again. I didn't intend to criticize or blame the EAs.
I didn't see anything wrong with your comment. In fact, I completely agree. I get annoyed when people post "chill out -- it's only pinball." We've been chilling for quite some time.
I will become vicious if DP doesn't communicate directly with its customers before next Saturday's seminar at TPF.
Let me put it in Dutch so that there's no confusion:
Ik zal vicieuze worden als DP niet rechtstreeks met haar klanten communiceert voordat volgende week zaterdag bij TPF.
Quoted from Superchicken:If you want direct communication, pickup the phone and call Jaap.
Right. Because we should kiss DP's ass to get a status update on our $8500 investment. Makes perfect sense!
Quoted from Superchicken:If I felt that talking to Jaap would change anything I would have been on the phone a long time ago. I want DP to fix this and I believe DP wants the same.
What's DP's phone #?
Standing by...
Quoted from Rarehero:It wasn't an investment. It was a purchase. Give us the product we paid for, or a refund. Simple.
I agree. I shouldn't be calling it an investment.
Quoted from Superchicken:DP stands to make $500 a game or $150K! Out of that minus art, programing, admin, office rent, lawyers. DP would be a nonprofit pinhead hobby.
I get your point, but a lot of us don't care about DP's profitability at this point. When it comes down to brass tacks, their problems/woes shouldn't be our ours. Unfortunately, it's the cost/risk of doing business.
I would not feel so strongly if we didn't have to contend with the drama with Phil, music licensing, delays, lack of transparency, and fibs.
Quoted from Rensh:They say you know who truely your friends are when times are bad ......
Really @Rensh? I'm super thankful for the info you provided us, but I can't agree with your statement. This isn't a "friendship." They have our money and we have nothing after 2-3 years of patiently waiting. DP has been super shady on the communication and clarity. Not very friend-like right?
Most of their customer base is US-based. It's not like we could enjoy the fruits of a party or factory tour like you and other UK/European locals. They had no business celebrating until all games shipped out the door.
Rarehero has every right to push for answers. I'm glad someone is digging, otherwise we'd have zero idea of where this project stands.
Quoted from rubberducks:It was a short notice replacement for the lack of Dutch Pinball Open (not DP the company) last year, and people paid a modest sum to attend and cover the costs.
Unless I'm missing something, all communication I received called it a "VIP Factory Tour." They were celebrating the beginning of production.
The first games shipped 2 months later in April 2016. You must be referring to the other factory tour in November 2016. Even then, by that time, they had barely shipped any games!
Quoted from Superchicken:I usually just contact the vendor or if it's outside the timeframe of when I need it, cancel and buy it somewhere else.
We get it. You're cool as a cucumber. You don't sweat the small stuff and you're OK waiting in limbo on a long overdue $8,500 purchase because it's "out of your control." Keep in mind we are talking about a cash purchase here. This isn't something we can easily cancel.
MrBally made a valid point. Just because you and few others are OK with being left in the dark, doesn't mean the rest of us share the same philosophy. I think it's clear that some of us are tired of the drama and lack of transparency.
I feel like a broken record, but the fact that we need to beg DP for updates is complete BS! I also shouldn't need a trade show to get them either. This is the point MrBally was making, which has been supported by a few others, including myself.
We are not being dickheads. You may be content with radio silence and getting your product status updates from tradeshows, but not everyone has to agree with you.
ALSO-
Keep in mind that @rarehero's efforts helped us learn how the "board issues" were a cover-up. We'd still be sitting here speculating about them if he and others had not done any due diligence. Where's the appreciation?
I've been working Product Development for more than 15 years, so I know what it takes to get a product out the door. This isn't cool nor fun anymore. I'm sure most of us would be OK with the truth vs. the "hide the wienie" game DP has been playing for quite some time (music licensing, the apron, production start dates).
Quoted from unigroove:I rather see them refund you.
That's really not fair to say considering @rarehero's money helped kickstart this project in the first place.
Quoted from unigroove:Got a text from both Barry and Jaap this morning saying that the license has not expired, so that's not even an issue.
Fortunately, you guys (Rensh included) have the inside scoop. We don't have it like that.
I don't think anyone here believes Barry and Jaap are bad guys. It's obvious we love their work. We just need them to be straightforward and forthright so that we aren't speculating and going at each other. If it takes a threat or kick in the ass, so be it. We all bought into TBL and helped make this thing happen. At the end of the day, we DO have some common ground (besides a fondness for pinball).
Quoted from Who-Dey:For sure, time for somebody to get a life!
Right. Rarehero is such a loser. He doesn't have any other interests or hobbies. His job probably sucks too!
Quoted from Mr68:He's a Director for the TV show Family Guy and other work in Hollywood. He's also very passionate about pinball.
Thumbs down for your snotty comment.
Thumbs down for you not getting the point.
Quoted from Rensh:For those who are not going to TPF (like me), I understood there will be another newsletter on Saturday parallel to the TPF seminar.
So, watch your mailbox Saturday
I hope so Rensh. Thanks for sharing.
Perhaps they will have another update for us at Expo in October. I'm sure this is when/how they will tell BoP 3.0 preorders what features got dropped or went missing between now and then.
At $12,500, VDL better have other business and activity to fall back on. I foresee crickets and paper airplanes.
Quoted from mgpasman:Apparently, they also manufacture cars.
I caught that part and they will need to continue doing so. This title won't be moving the line(s).
Quoted from mgpasman:I wonder, would any of the TBL buyers be willing to pay the €1000 and free their machine?
DP has run out of money. They should be the ones coughing up the difference to serve their customers while they work out their legal battle. How did this become our problem?
We are really f*cked if DP loses this fight in court.
Quoted from MrBally:So DP "Do get the money" when the distributor forwards it to them.
I can support this statement. My last (4th) payment actually went to Cointaker, which was then forwarded onto DP.
Quoted from foxtj24:Any one have a video of Jaap's seminar at TPF?
No, but I'm sure the next big update will be announced at Expo in October. We should sign each other's yearbook now and write "see you next year."
Quoted from RyanStl:What ever happened to Phil?
I was curious to know the same. I did confirm that he is definitely alive (and most likely well).
BTW, I'm glad that some of the other Early Achievers are finally speaking out in agreement on the situation. For awhile, there was only a handful of us expressing frustration and doubt.
I think it's fair to say we've been more than patient, but enough is enough. This is beyond unlawful and if you're banking on BoP to deliver your dream machine, now is the time to finally get realistic. The "it's out of my control" mentality won't fly when you're out $8500 and wondering what to do (or could have done) about it.
Suit yourself, but I think I'm done hanging out on Gilligan's Island.
Quoted from Rarehero:Refund and I vanish from the hobby
I'm sure your toilet will thank you.
According to this post, 40 boxed games and enough parts to do 80 more:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/class-action-lawsuit#post-3674721
I am still having trouble believing DP's story/timeline.
Were they renegotiating FOB every 50 units (or 3 months)? How did the cost go up after the first 50 units were built and then again (after the 2nd round of 40)? It does not make sense. They would have calculated costs prior to tooling or procurement of parts and negotiated (with labor) based on the 300 or so units. ARA knew where the ceiling stood from the get-go, otherwise they would not have taken on this project.
Supposedly, Jaap's background and expertise is Project Management. How do you let 4 months (June-October) go by without knowing parts weren't ordered? Why isn't the BoP prototype further along? If they were trying to get the pin out by December, why wouldn't they have a more complete/"finished" working prototype available in time for Expo in Chicago (how/where else would they have announced this new game)? Dialed In and Batman 66 were announced in September/October. How would DP have known or foreseen the market for $12,500 pins back in June? I don't buy this story.
I'm also having a very hard time believing that ARA would be hush and standstill on a price increase, especially in the beginning of production. I work with Chinese CMs and they have no problem or difficulty communicating cost-ups BEFORE manufacturing begins. You don't want to tie up your lines, so you're not going to pout and halt everything to make a point instead of building other products.
June 2016
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated (again). This time, ARA demands over €1.000 extra per TBL. After several negotiations, DP agrees with this new price, but only under the condition that ARA seriously speeds up production and delivers 300 TBL plus 50 units of our second title: Bride of Pinbot 25th anniversary, before December 31, 2016.
October 2016
DP finds out that ARA has not ordered a single part for the 50 BoP25s. When DP confronts ARA with this, ARA insists on the higher price. DP refuses to pay this price since the condition will not be realized. ARA announces production stop of TBL.
Quoted from Richthofen:Usually payment is delivered in milestones for contract work. So N delivery target is met, pay $100K. When M delivery target is met, pay $200K. etc. I don't see any issue with their timeline. In fact, I think it's totally probable that ARA asked them for a larger payment per game for the next set of games.
Payment and FOB pricing are two different things. You negotiate FOB based on the largest volume you can forecast in order to get the best price possible. What would cause the price to increase after 50 units and then again after a 2nd round of 40? All parts should have been procured by then. There weren't any drastic changes in the currency exchange/labor market to warrant such an increase. Why would Dutch agree to the first price increase if there were milestones set for TBL?
Poor negotiation either way.
Quoted from Rarehero:You got yours, to hell with the rest of us, eh?
Not worth your energy Greg.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:the story doenst matter, you paid, youre in the hole, you did that with the risk in mind, now you suffer. Or... you can choose not to suffer and wait and see
Thank you Captain Wisdom. I can't wait for next week's session.
Quoted from Rick432:well... euros anyway.
shucks.
I was saying guilders to be a smartass.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:Im glad you finally get my point . now relax
Go play your TBL!
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:You can afford it..
I can also afford to fly 1st class to The Netherlands to smack you in the back of the head, but it doesn't mean I should do it just because I can afford to do so.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I'm having the hardest time understanding why universal would care about any of this.
They may only care when it comes to licensing any of their properties in the future. DP may need to travel "Back to the Future" to make amends for TBL should they choose to go after another Universal license.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:first of all, do you have any deposit in here?
second, did and do you still have some common sense in your vains?
Deposit? I'm paid in FULL.
You do have a point on the common sense. After all, I AM guilty of still believing in / trusting DP even after the meltdown with Phil. I suppose that's why I'm here looking at options with my fellow flippers so that we're not holding our sausages if/when DP doesn't pull through this mess. If you go back, you'll see how I've been one of DP's biggest proponents.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:you will never know.Its none of your business.
It IS our business Foolio! It is OUR money at stake. You have your game so stop telling us how to feel or act.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:Wait and see and maybe you get your machine. Standing by DP is all whats left, so try to be possitive and keep supporting them is all you can do
We've been waiting since 2014. How much longer should we kick it?
You seem to be the unofficial company spokesman. Please relay to DP that BoP 3.0 is a TERRIBLE idea.
Great news. Many thanks to the gents who shared the ARA updates.
I'll say it again. DP = talented bunch of guys. While I may not agree with BoP 3.0, these guys have strong potential with future titles. I personally believe TBL is on par with Bally/Williams in terms of quality, build, look, feel (which is exactly what they went after).
Most of us want to see them succeed, despite the doubt and frustration expressed by a few, including myself. I hope they can start building TBL games again soon and move past this and the BoP license.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Yes. Unfortunately, this thread and others have drawn plenty of Pinsiders, with no stake in TBL, eager to pile on the negativity and kick "idiot" pre-orderers when things have looked dark recently.
And then there's the Early Achiever who tells us to "don't worry, be happy" while he plays his TBL.
Quoted from Mr68:Where the hell did I ever say that? I would never say anything like that and I didn't.
Mr68 I need to buy you a drink. You misunderstood me (not the 1st time).
I was actually referring to a certain Dutch goofball from the other day who was rightfully downvoted by the community (see @LITZ's post above this one).
I vividly remember fending off the naysayers who were lurking in this thread prior to the first batch shipping. I totally get where you're coming from.
Question:
DP claims there are 200 (or more) clips from the movie in the game. Has this been verified?
Quoted from dannylite:While you all were ranting and raving and some of you probably are still raving. DP was working through your American nights. God bless DP and the future owners.
Not clear on the point of your post, but Razorbak86 wasn't ranting or raving. He was just being helpful with the facts.
And many of us work through Dutch nights (and often times Dutch mornings too).
Quoted from ff6735:I've spoken with Barry in the last few hours. I'm optimistic and look forward to productive discussion they will hopefully have.
How did the conversation with Barry go? I ask because it looked like you were dropping out. Either way, I'm glad to hear you're more optimistic after the discussion.
"I had a former executive from the company, who I believed had taken off with the money, bizarrely invite me to come eat ice cream with him at his apartment somewhere in Europe as his response to my demands for a refund when things looked the bleakest..."
Very Wes Anderson-ish. I can't help but feel slighted that I wasn't invited for ice cream.
1 week later
Quoted from PinBalt:2 days to go .... Anyone getting a bit nervous
You may want to grab a Snickers. I hate to say it, but I think we are a long ways from any real activity.
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:Yes and no, jerking off in public is not something I do. I only do this in front of my tbl when at least the lights get on.
So in case you all envy me, my TBL, is for sale. Ask me for the price.
You may want to clean and wipe down your machine before you sell it.
Quoted from Pinhead1982:Lebowski Update
STARWARS pin announcement!?
Gonna be ONE HELLA DAY!
Unfortunately, I think the Star Wars announcement will have far more impact and results.
In Star Wars speak:
"You are unwise to lower your defenses." - Darth Vader
"We seem to be made to suffer." - C-3P0
Quoted from chadderack:Well May 4th might just be a day for ARA/DP to talk... it probably wouldn't be the day they'd pass along anything to the buyers.
This is exactly what I was implying. I'm #146, so who knows when the line will start up again. They'll need to schedule and allocate accordingly, hence my pessimism. It'd be awesome if it happens in the next couple of months, but I'm not banking on it.
I'm just glad they're talking again. Meanwhile, the 40 or so packaged games will need a good Indiana Jones-like dusting prior to shipment.
1 week later
Quoted from deadzebra:Can anyone get up that right ramp on the regular? What's the secret? I can almost get up there off the tip of the left flipper but it usually doesn't quite make it. Maybe need to juice up the flipper power?
I can let you know when I get my game.
I'm surprised some of you expected unicorns and rainbows after yesterday's "meeting."
Let's not be naive. DP doesn't have cash, otherwise the 40-50 hostage games would've been released and shipped by now. The "we can't refund you" BS solidifies my point. I'd like to see them tell a judge this line of crap.
Quoted from NeilMcRae:I don't have any money in this but DP is finished.
No need to make the mood any worse than it already is right now.
Besides, you bought a Batman '66, so your judgment can't be too sound!
Quoted from NeilMcRae:sorry my intent wasn't to make the mood worse but to try and save many folks with hard earned money lose less! and BM66 is a fantastic game!
All good. Just know this thread has been "base camp" for many of us for quite some time. We are certainly frustrated, but still have faith in DP and this game. It's just insulting when folks come in here and throw salt with their ridiculous statements (like suggesting BoP 2.0 "piracy").
We may know good news soon, so don't count DP out yet.
And I was only (slightly) teasing about BM66. You could argue that you have your game and we don't, so thanks for not throwing that back at me.
I must say that I'm pleased with DP's proactive communication over the past month or so. Strong and noticeable improvement over the past.
They just need to make sure the trend continues moving forward.
1 week later
Quoted from unigroove:2. Forget the assumption that DP is broke. I have no reason to even assume that and nobody who suggested they are have any form of proof even remotely indicating that.
Charging $12.5K for BoP3.0 without a working prototype to show is a strong indication of cash shortage.
Note to DP: Hire said "consultant" (or experienced attorney) BEFORE you sign a fricking contract manufacturing agreement. #business101
I know many agree that it's safe to say the ARA contract probably has more holes than the PGA. Based on what we know, it's very likely DP never secured the rights to their molds/tooling. It's also very likely they didn't stipulate a fixed price with a set BOM prior to production. We may not know the ins & outs, but a well-structured contract wouldn't have allowed a price increase after production began.
DP knows that if they had a pot to pee in, they would have already filed a lawsuit by now. The fact that they are entertaining a lopsided deal (takeover) shows they have no leg to stand on. If DP had a strong contract, they wouldn't be negotiating or considering this unbalanced offer, nor communicating it to us.
Rookie business move or not, it's in their best interest to make this deal happen.
And don't get me started with ARA. They are jackasses for doing Dutch press interviews promoting their facilities, capabilities, and involvement with TBL (like this one: http://m.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/article/26394612/hollandse-flipperglorie).
I am tempted to reach out to the Directors at NiVoGe and ask them for a status update on my game -- not just via email but on LinkedIn too. Heck, I may do a blog about this entire experience in Dutch and SEO it so that it's first page result every time you Google "ARA" or "NiVoGe" or search for them on LinkedIn.
The younger, less patient me would reach out to the Dutch press outlets that covered ARA's involvement with TBL last year and ask them to follow-up with ARA for an update on progress, # of games produced/shipped, and customer reception/feedback.
They (ARA) should have stayed behind the scenes like any other contract manufacturer. You don't see Foxconn giving factory tours and publicly promoting how they make iPhones. I am not a lawyer, but ARA could easily be included in any legal complaint there in The Netherlands.
Quoted from Oldgoat:I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen a contract that did not provide a change order mechanism.
Depending on the volume, most stipulate a YoY % cost-down, not cost-up.
Based on what I know thus far, I believe DP may have run out of money prior to production starting in April '16. At that time, they didn't (and still don't) have 300 PAID IN FULL preorders. They may have sold their souls just to get the first initial games going on the line with hopes of catching up with the remaining higher-priced games (non-Early Achievers/those with $1K deposits with CT and Nitro).
Who knows?!
CT was telling customers that ARA was being unreasonable, so why wouldn't DP pursue legal action against ARA? They now probably know they don't have any recourse, hence the stalling and backpedaling. DP is most likely screwed (and know it).
DP needs to drop their pants and chalk it up as a painful business lesson. We want our games and this is their only hope.
On a related note, a Dutch judge recently ruled that Apple's warranty replacement products must be new and NOT refurbished. This proves that the country is pro-consumer. It's in DP's best interest to do something soon before they have more legal woes. Others can sit back and rationalize, but I've set my own mental deadline for when action will be taken. I'm not going to sit on the sidelines for another year until/while they figure it all out. Enough is enough. I have plenty of other problems and pinball can't be one of them.
Quoted from Ballypinball:I will call my contact and get the license details
Why bother and what's with the hard-on? We want a manufacturing agreement so games can ship and be produced again. It's really that simple. Your gumshoe work won't have any effect on this process.
Quoted from Mr68:Interesting side note. My machine has no serial number on it or in it. Only the Achiever Edition plaque number.
I'm wonder about others.
I guess the plaque serves as your serial #?
Quoted from Mr68:Anyway, I just found it curious and don't mean to go off topic.
Not off-topic at all. Thanks for sharing!
Quoted from SadSack:This is bullshit. What more is required than a yes or no? More of the same. Some people never learn.
Were you expecting high-fives and butt slaps? This isn't something that can be sorted in short order.
Quoted from SadSack:I don't fit in with losers.
Beat it! And good luck selling that janky, rusty-ass Operation:Thunder. Was it in plugged in next to the ocean?
1 week later
Quoted from Rensh:I understand you are angry and need to blow off steam but this is just not helping.
So should we give DP another year or so to work it out?
At this point, I feel like we are the house band on the Titanic.
Quoted from unigroove:Just because you (and others) don't have all the inside info, and rather go by assumptions and speculations, doesn't mean DP are lying.
Not trying to be a dick, but where was the inside info when there were "board issues?"
Quoted from unigroove:DP also indicated they aren't refunding anyone once production started and parts had to be bought. No exceptions for anyone, including you, which actually seems fair.
This wasn't clearly spelled out to me. I didn't sign any sort of agreement that held me bound to this stipulation.
Quoted from unigroove:what else you can do? there's nothing you can do that will solve the situation, so you might as well do nothing, sit back and wait for DP to work out a solution.
We've been sitting back for 3 years. We bought a pinball machine -- not a ticket on Virgin Galactic.
Quoted from PismoArcade:Trying to figure out why Unigroove would want to risk losing the good will that he's built with his magazine by appearing to be a DP apologist/ sycophant.
And voicing disappointment towards people who've supported DP from Jump Street.
For those who keep defending DP's "policies," I would like to remind you that we have federal and state protection laws here in the United States. One such federal law is known as the MAIL, INTERNET, OR TELEPHONE ORDER MERCHANDISE RULE.
This FTC (Federal Trade Commission) rule, also referred to as the "30-day rule," requires merchants who are shipping a product to a buyer do so within a reasonable period of time. If the merchant cannot ship within 30 days (or within the period of time stated), the customer's consent must be sought to allow for the delay. If no consent is obtained or if the customer does not consent to the delay, the merchant is required to refund the customer's money in a prompt manner for the unshipped merchandise.
The "clock" on the merchant's obligation to ship or take other action under this Rule begins as soon as they receive a "properly completed" order. An order is properly completed when a merchant receives the correct full or partial (in whatever form they accept) payment, accompanied by all the information they need to fill the order.
Merchants who violate this Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $40,654 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint).
Quoted from Dkjimbo:so what the hell happens with the completed games packed in boxes at ARA? What happens to all the parts sitting at ARA? All those go to the landfill? This new vendor starts from scratch and has to tool up for every unique part? Reproduction for all parts has to start over at zero? Given the circumstances, it seems impossible that ARA will turn over the large inventory of parts on hand much less the games in box...
so 4 weeks for the new guy to work up his quote, another 4 weeks of negotiation - assuming that goes well, then what...8 months plus for ramping up, procuring off-the-shelf parts, tooling up to fabricate custom parts, then another several months of production to actually build games, test games, etc? Best case scenario its another 18 months before a game ships...and that's assuming there is money somewhere to actually make any of this happen.
Going the route of a new CM seems like a terrible idea - not to mention a very costly one...call me crazy but this sounds like a DP bluff to push ARA in negotiations....none of this makes any sense...starting over is going to cost a fortune no matter how good of a quote they get from the new manufacturer.
I'm wondering the same damn thing. You don't just walk away from a written contract, especially when you're not at-fault. Perhaps they are using the new manufacturing quote as a bargaining tool with ARA to say "we can get this game built at a lower cost somewhere else."
We are probably looking at another year at the very least.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:It's not realistic to think the FTC will be interested and able to sue DP successfully. Nor is it beneficial. You're likely to get far more selling your spot to speculators than you would from any FTC action.
Thanks for the input Perry Mason, but I never stated I would use the FTC to sue DP.
It was directed towards those who stated DP's "no refund" policy has legal merit.
Trust me, I have several other avenues I can pursue here in the States. I'm more than willing to prove I can get my money back if I choose to get proactive about it. Hint: DP isn't the only party I can pursue.
But thanks for your 2 cents. I'm glad you're here.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:I look forward to hearing what DP has to say, AND more importantly, the opportunity for TBL buyers to ask them questions. Hopefully, we'll get some better answers than in the past.
Someone is going to repost the hosting details, so I fear that it will become a public forum with non-vested parties (much like this thread).
Quoted from RTR:I was #19 - very early in the process. Big supporter
You also coordinated the Pinside preorder list, so no one should be sweating you about anything.
Quoted from foxtj24:Or they spent all the money trying to look like rock stars at all the pinball shows.
In all fairness, it's not like they were making it rain at shows, but I do see your point. I said the same thing when it was announced Jaap would be at this year's TPF.
I seriously doubt Jaap and Barry were pounding out lines of cocaine topped off with bottles of Dom Perignon. To be honest, their showing at Expo '14 helped sell me (and many others) on the game over the 4-day event. In my opinion, it was a very modest showing based on my experience with product announcements and launches.
I suppose they could've charged admission like Stern, but that would've been lame.
Quoted from knockerlover:Let's figure out how we can use the power of our collective to bail them out of this hole they are in. However, that requires us to commit to DP that we are with them, and for DP to be open and honest.. clean slate.
We shouldn't have to put in more money for DP to be open and honest. They got a clean slate when Phil refunded our money and most of us got back in.
Quoted from knockerlover:Those of you invested, I'm calling on you to tell DP that you're with them to get this thing done.
I have been "with them" since October 2014.
Quoted from eggbert52:Half these guys posting on here should have tried this hard when they were in school. Maybe they'd have a few more machines by now.
You can also get by with good looks and a big penis.
Quoted from flynnibus:wow.. get ready for a shit show. I wish they used a real platform made for moderated events. Heck, you can make registration required, use moderators, record, making legit Q&A in the chat, etc. Some of us work for the biggest conferencing companies in the world..
I agree. Perhaps Jack Danger is hosting it.
Questions for DP:
1) Are you really planning to do BoP 3.0?
2) Let's say you pull through and get games back on the line again. How do you plan to move forward as a company? How will you support your customers who have issues with their game? Do existing Achievers get some sort of an extended warranty due to your "absence" over the past year?
3) Is the code for TBL really 100%?
4) Why should we trust you?
Quoted from Rensh:What would you need more? A week upfront time and date is mentioned. On Monday you will get a mail with link, what would be the use of getting it earlier? Wanna print it out, frame it and look at it for two days ??
Come on Rensh. This webinar shouldn't be treated like a meeting between the White House and Russia. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know the details of the call beforehand. I may be commuting in the car at 9:00am Pacific Time, so it's helpful to know dial-in or weblink instructions ahead of time so that I can plan accordingly. It's pretty much expected (standard).
Quoted from MrBally:Expect a delay (just a week or two) here and there.....
"There is a board issue with our phones."
Quoted from Rarehero:Not sure I should post anymore since I'm not a member....but I got 100% of my $8500.
Now I'm trying to decide if I should sell my entire BOP w/ 2.0 or just remove the kit & sell that.
Then I will truly be free of "all this".
I wish everyone the best. I hope everyone gets their money or games.
Peace & Love.
Congrats. I don't blame you for dropping out, but will miss your posts in this thread.
Quoted from iceman44:Total losers. These guys are disgusting and STILL aren't taking any responsibility for what they have done!
Calling DP "losers" is a bit extreme and unjust. They were passionate about pinball and decided to make games that stood apart from Stern. They may not be the best businessmen, but they're sure as hell good at designing killer pinball products.
Jaap owned up to their mistakes in today's recorded stream. Should we beat a dead horse? It is not like DP vanished and fled to Columbia with our money. They are trying and have been much better on communication the past few months.
It's definitely been a hellish ride, but this game is undoubtedly special. No one else is going to step up with a comparable "outside-the-box" theme, so why not support them? They are good for pinball.
Quoted from Pimp77:Well, they aren't "winners".
No one is perfect. It takes failure to succeed. Again, it's not like they vanished into thin air. I don't think a comparison to JPop or SkitB is a fair comparison.
Quoted from toyotaboy:This is a probably a silly question, but has it ever been asked / answered what exactly giving up 51% of the "company" really means? Does it mean ARA simply profits off the rest of the game built?
DP gets squashed like cockroaches. Business write-off. Deal is void. NIB TBLs get placed in the Nivoge breakroom and Managing Director's house.
I'm curious to know how many existing Achievers have open service tickets needing closure or resolution. I believe someone is waiting on a bowling mech, while another is awaiting a replacement game due to shipping damage.
A duck walks into a bar.
He says to the bartender, “I’d like to buy some peanuts.”
The bartender says, “I don’t sell peanuts.”
The duck leaves.
The next day, the duck walks into the bar again and asks, “I want to buy some peanuts.”
The bartender replies, “I already told you I don’t sell peanuts!” The duck leaves.
The next day, the duck walks into the bar and asks again, “I want to buy some peanuts.”
The bartender yells back, “I told you, I don’t sell peanuts! If you ask me one more time, I’ll nail you to the wall!”
The duck leaves.
The next day, the duck walks into the bar and asks, “Do you have any nails?”
The bartender says, “I don’t have nails.”
The duck then asks, “Do you have any peanuts?”
It was looking like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue, but this is a great way to kick off a Friday/holiday weekend.
It's a single, but it looks like we are back on base!
Quoted from eggbert52:Told all you morons you were wrong. Glad they are going to get the games out or at least appears so.
Whoa Nelly! I used to think (and somewhat post) the same thing prior to the first 50 games getting built. When production stopped, it was me who was the moron.
In other words, don't count your chickens...
Quoted from flynnibus:100 employees? That's pretty small for a CM business.
That's probably 95 more than Heighway.
Quoted from dannylite:It's an amazing pinball machine but it's got too many software bugs to be a competition/league machine. If they can't get the glitches straightened out TBL will only be making brief appearances. Otherwise, it's just embarrassing for me and DP.
Have you relayed your experience with the software to DP? They seem to believe it's baked and finished, so it would be beneficial for operators and Early Achievers like yourself to tell them otherwise. Many of the Early Achievers who have their game seem to believe the code is complete. Please speak up, especially after all the chaos and frustration. No one wants a Dutch Magic Girl (exaggerating but you get the point).
If DP stands by their "True Serial Number" promise, they'll skip over the ones being held hostage by ARA.
1 week later
2 weeks later
Quoted from JimB:Hopefully next August 2018 we will all be happily playing our TBL's and telling DP have a great summer vacation, well earned.
Until then, I'll be saying "don't have a great summer vacation -- not earned."
Quoted from Spelunk71:I hear it's actually a secret plan to make Dutch Pinball great again while playing lots of golf.
Or in this case, pocket pool.
1 month later
Quoted from titanpenguin:They have worked hard to get this far, and have put up with a bunch of nay sayers, unfounded (and founded) rumors, and hard times.
The same could be said for us Early Achievers!
4 weeks later
We funded DP/TBL, yet we are now at the bottom of the wait list. Awesome! "TRUE-SERIAL™ Number" my @ss!
FUN FACTS:
- We will have experienced two Winter Olympics if/when we finally get our games.
- I watched your kids grow up and go off to college in your Subaru during this time.
- I was young and handsome when I preordered this game. I am no longer either one.
DP needs to polish the damn software during this downtime!
1 week later
First off, people need to stop attacking Rarehero
Much like you and I, he helped fund this project. Don't forget that he also had a BoP 2.0. That should prove his loyalty and vested interest.
Either way, he deserves more respect from those who are/were casting judgment.
Secondly, CoinTaker is legally on the hook when I go to recoup my $8500. They collected my last and final TBL payment. I don't care where the money went; I just know my check was made out to CoinTaker and tendered by them. According to Pennsylvania law, we're still within the statute of limitations. I don't care how DP and CT work it out, but I am coming after CT if I don't receive my game in the next few months (January '18). I apologize for the tone, but I am stating this to document my advance warning. Nothing personal -- strictly business. I am not going to get played.
Quoted from CoinTaker:This was a one time deal that we were asked to accept the final payment for DP on.
I have been the biggest DP proponent and supporter, but my patience has worn thin. Perhaps you can relay the message to DP that January 2018 is my drop-dead deadline before I take action. I don't care if DP has to sell themselves in the Red Light District (assless chaps and all); I am not going to wait until new orders receive their games to get my game that was ordered back in 2014. That's not how this was presented or sold to me. Their supplier dispute is not MY problem. I have plenty of other obstacles and challenges in my life to battle.
Nothing personal but I need a game or my money back come January 2018. I really wanted this game, but I can't allow my $8500 to drift away due to bad business decisions and running changes that affected value (supplier issues, music, code, order of game production). If DP isn't going to resume production where they left off, then they need to be transparent and upfront about it. Don't make people ask.
I'd rather put my money into a new AFM Remake or Total Annihilation because I have confidence in these US-based manufacturers and I know my game will show up.
Quoted from flynnibus:The code is pretty good ATM anyway...
It'll be good when it's flushed out and completed. They've had plenty of time to catch up.
Quoted from TomDK:Ahhh ... made in the US is now a guaratee for delivery and no risk on pre-order !
Good to know
Dass ist not what I said or implied Herr Misinterpreter!
THIS is exactly what I was stating:
Quoted from jlm33:Risk associated with Spooky or CGC is indeed very low.
2 weeks later
1 week later
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:Yep, i’m glad it found a good home
Did you lose interest in the game?
2 months later
2 weeks later
Quoted from bemmett:Can they maybe show us another side of that wooden carton?
Raiders of the Lost Pinball
The real question is how many new games need to be sold to start fulfilling Early Achiever preorders?
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:TBL being built in China doesn't mean that the quality is worse than the units built in Europe. If DP cuts corners to reduce costs, then that'll affect the quality, regardless of where production is located. I hope that no corners are cut and build quality is consistent with TBL's already produced.
I haven't seen the build quality on the Chinese proto(s), but I will take @burningman's and @rensh's word for it. At this point and time, I'd still take a Dutch-built machine over a Chinese one. I say this because DP is pretty much teaching XYTECH a new "sport" and THERE IS a learning curve on something as complex as a pinball machine:
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:Also keep in mind that ARA hadn't built a pinball machine before and DP also had to teach them. Hopefully the Chinese made TBL won't have QC issues as production ramps and that the learning curve isn't steep.
Quoted from whitey:You mean to tell me the entire TBL pinball is built in China ?
Rumor on the streets is that Early Achievers are getting a free Huawei phone for their troubles.
Quoted from Rensh:Also HQ Xytech where design is done is in NL.
Thanks for the clarification!
Quoted from kapper:I applaud and admire your positive outlook on things
I'd like to clear the air on "a few missteps"
Over 3 years of waiting........very poor communication......refusal to refund FULL payment.....untruthful about manufacturing delays....etc.
I will continue to watch and hope for the best but I continue to believe that my pre-order money is gone forever.
I generally feel that "management" at DP is incompetent at best.
I agree 100%, but at the same time, it's not as if they're hiding out in a flooded trailer park. My fingers are definitely crossed.
I'm concerned with the wait time for an "influx" of future TBL customers since our hopes of ever receiving this game ride on them purchasing the new XYTECH version. Sure, we see some demand from fellow Pinsiders, but a quick Google search on this game will provide some red flags for any prospective buyer who does their homework. The game was already expensive, so only time will tell if the market for this $10K game (possibly more outside the US) still exists when the games are finally produced and available for sale.
4 weeks later
Quoted from TomDK:DPO are for me the most worst businessman on planet earth.
To clarify, DP and DPO are two different entities. I am sure you meant DP.
Quoted from TomDK:Maybe they do not show up on conventions for the reason that they dont want to answer questions ... also a option.
In DP's defense, they HAVE shown up for multiple conventions post-ARA fallout. While the communication was poor, it's not like they vanished and went into hiding like others before them.
I am glad they chose to sit TPF out. I hope they continue doing so until games are shipping and there is clarity on their game plan for Early Achievers who paid in full for their MIA game(s).
We are definitely due for an update from DP (last email update was 02/13/18).
Chinese New Year ended 02/25/18. DP was going to review and test Engineering Sample #4, which was supposed to be shipped to DP after CNY.
We're almost a month post-CNY, so let's hope they're still on target to begin assembly in April-May (as stated by DP).
Per DP-
"Giving a specific time when production will start depends on lead-time of parts. Most parts will take only a few weeks, but some parts may take up to two months once ordered."
In my experience in the Consumer Electronics world, Chinese CMs typically don't procure parts until they have a PO (purchase order) in place, so I see this as a good sign for us. Either way, an update from DP would be appreciated.
DP went silent when the ARA dilemma arose, so we know firsthand that "no news" isn't always good news.
As some of you suggested, DP should immediately tell us if the latest Engineering Sample didn't meet their quality standards or if there was an unforeseen issue with the procurement of a part. It's the least they could do and it's better than leaving us hanging and forcing people (including those with no skin in the game) to draw their own well-deserved conclusions and perceptions.
I am still waiting for an update on the 25th anniversary Super LE BoP (considering this year marks the 27th anniversary). Try again in 2021 for the 30th anniversary? Nevermind. I just want TBL to ship.
Quoted from Yelobird:He will be back up soon with a new pep speech to keep the deposits flowing.
Possible excuses for their lack of communication:
- Barry got hit by a parked car.
- Jaap's pet rock died.
- Laptop with SolidWorks files accidentally dropped and submerged in a Dutch canal.
- Uber is 2.8x surge pricing from hotel to Xytech factory in Suzhou, so they're waiting it out until the price goes back down.
- Their Uber POOL rideshare from hotel to factory took a left at the fork in the road and now they're somewhere in the Himalayas.
*I am allowed to make snarky comments until this game gets delivered.
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:Not yet it isn't.
» YouTube video
Haha!
I'm just trying to keep this thread alive and active while DP gets their act together (I have my work cut out for me).
The dedicated thread for Shaq Attaq probably has more activity and updates than this one.
Quoted from Mr68:...changes in attitude, changes in latitude.
"If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane." - Jimmy Buffett
I am glad more being people are being vocal about the lack of details. No one knows the ins & outs of DP's "pyramid plan" to get EA games to their rightful owners. DP owes it to EAs to be completely transparent about it.
The EAs are forced to rely on new game sales to get their game, which blows for people at the back of the line. I have said this before, but how strong is the market/demand for this game outside Pinside after all this time? There are a lot of new games to choose from right now that are under $10K (from companies that are stable and dropping more games in the near future).
I also haven't seen a big marketing push to sell this game. Are the distributors seeing enough interest in this game to sell another 150 or so games? Is there any customer awareness outside Pinside? I hope so, but a lot of time has passed since they announced this game and generated initial buzz. Unfortunately, the game has a bit of "stink" attached to it. This is what pops up if you input the search term "Lebowski Pinball" into Google:
Quoted from twoplays25c:According to ipdb.org, here's what HAS come onto the market since this thread BEGAN:
Don't forget Spooky's TNA and Alice Cooper, along with Stern's Iron Maiden.
Quoted from RTR:wcbrandes - Are you talking about ARA contacting you to be a plaintiff in their suit along with them?
<insert theme from "The People's Court">
Quoted from rubberducks:I don't think TBL is likely to be a doorstop if you actually get one, and Barry has made every effort to support those people who are lucky enough to have one (same with BoP 2.0).
Some may disagree:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-the-big-lebowski-6/page/2#post-4313137
Only a handful of people truly understand TBL functionality, the parts, or the proprietary design. Lack of available parts of the original game, incompatibility of the new sample games with the electronics, breakability of the lower bowling assembly, and other factors such as the schematic layout makes this have the potential to be a 300lb doorstop. I know because I have inspected/played the game before it broke, saw the vulnerabilities, and witnessed the problems afterward to get it functioning again. Right now, it is not worth the time or effort to correct from my company's perspective. Essentially, the operations manager is waiting to see if a complete boardset could be swapped in design (and potential "restart" of production), than trying to rebuild the entire game. This does not consider some mechanical issues, that still have to be addressed unrelated to electronics. They don't want me spending dozens of hours trying to create a new solution. Other people asked me for advice regarding upgrades or parts, and there is no present source, and the future as already reported remains unknown.
Definitely. I agree that Barry and Jaap aren't in hiding. They just need to be more proactive on frequent communication and status of the game.
1 week later
Quoted from Buzz:All I want for Christmas is my pin.
I used to wish for the same Xmas gift, but Santa has been letting me down the last few years. He did, however, bring me a GI Joe USS Flagg aircraft carrier in 2015. It took him 30 years, so let's hope he doesn't do the same with TBL.
1 week later
Quoted from Mr68:It's an important question as I have learned to not trust Pinside at all in situations like this. And DP needs to make an announcement to restore faith if it's true.
BTW, congrats on your long-winded fight against JPOP. Much respect. Let this be a signal to others.
#PinsideStrong
Quoted from Rarehero:While I was gone, did the 200-300 people who ordered games 3-4 years ago all get their games?
No, but 16 different Marvel movies came and went from theaters during your time away. At this rate, Avatar 4 will be in theaters by the time we see this game.
Quoted from phil-lee:This looks like a great opportunity for Homepin to produce Lebowski. They have the Manufacturing foundation, which is important for parts supply. The established Chinese connection would be key for future production of this machine.
How is their track record any better than Xytech? I'd like to believe that Xytech has even better access to part procurement due to their 10+ years of experience...in China. The last thing we need is another new contract manufacturer.
What DP needs to do is keep us updated more often. At this point, we should be getting weekly status updates between now and manufacturing (which is conducted internally in product development). What's going on with the parts? What is holding up Start of Production?
Based on their past, no news is not good news. The speculation and doubts will continue until they get more proactive on sharing info. I don't care if it's a photo of Jaap emptying the wastebasket. It's better than nothing.
Quoted from titanpenguin:While many of you have been trash talking, DP has been learning the art of pinball.
I was led to believe they were already "educated" back in 2013.
Quoted from Rensh:No money went to expensive unused machinery, an Opel Zafira is not a Porsche Cayenne, all rents were paid (just small office by the way), etc.
I welcome an investigation but it will show money went to salaries and development and some parts and building prototypes.
You'll have to forgive my sarcasm @Rensh. I do not believe DP is "corrupt." I only make wisecracks to keep this thread alive. After all, what else would we talk about?
People (including those without money down on the game) will continue to speculate, naysay, and make snide remarks until DP decides to communicate more to us. Imagine if they were crowdfunding via Kickstarter or Indiegogo. Nevermind the MIA game -- DP's lack of communication would have gotten them booted off those sites a long time ago.
Quoted from RTR:I emailed Jaap and Barry for an update 2 days ago. Got an automated out of office response from Jaap (out til 14th) and nothing from Barry so far.
Most likely because of the Ascension Day holiday (05/10) in The Netherlands.
Quoted from RTR:It is not unusual for business owners to answer emails while on vacation or otherwise inconvenient. Believe me.
I agree 100% and know the drill when it comes to corresponding with those in different time zones. I find it sad that you (we) are forced to go "fish" for updates.
Quoted from Mr68:Only in regards to having a target range for the ladies, age 35 to 45. Otherwise, I'm not so sure I would want the trade off to be young again.
Well said. I wish I knew half the sh*t I know now vs. what I thought I knew in my 20s.
Quoted from Roostking:Simply suggesting that a refund might be a wise move isn't armchair quarterbacking, its prudent advice.
We wouldn't be playing pocket pool in this thread if refunds were an option.
I even held off paying my last payment until "start of production," which was more than 28 months ago (January 2016). This is when DP was conducting factory tours. In all fairness, things looked pretty legit from afar, even with the Phil drama.
I left the hobby in 2007 and came back in 2013 when TBL and MMR were announced. I was new to Pinside at a time where new, up-and-coming homebrew pin companies were embraced and welcomed because they provided much-needed competition to Stern.
On a side note, the hobby has come a long ways since the days of the rec.games.pinball listserv.
Quoted from Rensh:HP and DP might share half of the name but for the rest they are quite different. No money went to expensive unused machinery, an Opel Zafira is not a Porsche Cayenne, all rents were paid (just small office by the way), etc.
I welcome an investigation but it will show money went to salaries and development and some parts and building prototypes.
And remember, DP has had many offers for extra orders but turned them all down. No extra money was taken besides the first approx 200 EA. If they were in for money they have had plenty of chances to accept more pre order money but they didn’t. First get 300 out of the door they always said.
Not picking a fight, but if all of what you state is true, then why no refunds? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like a well-oiled machine.
Did I miss a written or verbal disclosure that WE were on the hook for delays and supplier changes? It took DP from 2013 to 2016 to go into production. It is now 2018. Again, I have no personal vendetta with DP, but how much time do you and the other "cheerleaders" believe is acceptable to wait for an $8500 item? Do you believe DP does a good job of communicating status updates to its customers (aka "investors")? Do you feel DP doesn't deserve our doubts and uncertainty? Do you feel DP would win in any form of legal action against them no matter the jurisidiction?
I sincerely respect you and value your input, which is why I'm asking you these questions.
Quoted from Rensh:I keep my faith in DP as i know the persons in person and know that they are not conning us. They are really trying, believe me.
For sure they deserve our doubts on their business, I have them at least, as in the end no matter the cause I bought with them and not ÄRA thus it’s their responsibility. I have placed my remarks on their communication skills over the years to them. My biggest remark is here that we are customers, not investors. And after all these time we deserve more info. But what if there is nothing new to tell?
For me personally the summerholiday is like a kind of deadline. If than production still hasn’t started it will become difficult for me to keep faith. Clock is ticking. A lot of the prepaid money went to salary over like 4 years, building prototypes twice, buying parts even if ARA paid most of them, etc. That must have eaten a big hole in their bank account hence the reason why refunds are impossible, at least for all of us. At this moment they just need to jump start production and as soon as TBL comes rolling from the production line income is generated and the line continuous with that and we will get our machines in the end. But this requires a big chunk of money at the start and my guess this is what we are waiting for. The approval from an investor. And this is now the status for like 4-5 months??
You can talk about getting a bank loan but who says they haven’t tried this? How many banks do you think will loan money to a pinball factory startup? We are not talking here of a 10KUSD loan after all.
My hope is that CT and or Nitro will garantuee payment upon shipping and that Xytech will prepay the parts required, at least for a part. This in combo with an angel investor might do it. I understood from DP selling is not an issue. Plenty of orders and even now people are approaching them still direct and offering deposits and orders. Unbelievable. DP declines them by the way.
Or perhaps Deeproot needs a theme and pinball with JPOP now convicted? Who knows? They have funds apparently.
So not end of the line (yet at least) but clock is ticking. And do we have a real choice here besides sitting it out? You can go to court and than what? DP falls over and than what? You can accuse them of being bad business man but not of conning and lying to people. They will not have to go to jail if you think this gives you some satisfaction.
Above are just my PERSONAL thoughts as a fellow EA who is also struggling with this all.
Thanks for explaining your viewpoint Rensh. We are definitely aligned, but I never said anything about criminal justice. This is purely a civil matter. No judge would accept DP's defense. Period. I mentioned legal action because it's the only means to recoup my $8500.
I supported and defended DP in the past, but their lack of transparency is pissing me off. We have only received two email updates from DP in the last 5.5 months.
We know that a few Pinsiders don't grab their violins until the ship is officially under water. That may work for them, but not for me. This isn't about my satisfaction; it's about preserving my money. I bought a pinball machine, not a pinball company. I could've invested my $8500 into Amazon stock and made over $36,000.
You say that DP isn't taking new deposits or payments, but yet, we have to wait until they figure out their "pyramid plan" to get our games. I'm almost 100 games back, which means I'm never going to see this game in 2018. I'm having serious doubts about 2019 too. You would think they'd want to take new orders so that they could forecast and land better pricing on parts and materials. They definitely have money issues if they're seeking financial investment, which means that their projected SOP in May or June is/was fluff. These are small quantities, so what is the holdup on parts?
Quoted from Rarehero:Part of this mystery is: Why would Xytec agree to build this game, knowing what happened with ARA, and knowing DP doesn't have the money to fund all these games being built?
Per the 04/06/18 NSNL (which was 40 days ago):
"We expect the last paperwork to be ready next week and then we have green light to start production. This means parts can be ordered, the production line is being prepared as well as all the work instructions, drawings and many other details that are needed for assembly. In the previous update we said we expect production to begin April/May, this has changed a little bit, and we now expect it to be May/June."
I interpret "paperwork" as payment to Xytech to start production.
Soooo...what's the status on that paperwork? Have parts been ordered and received?
"We will come with a new update in a few weeks, or when there’s other significant news."
My interpretation:
"We haven't paid Xytech yet, therefore, there isn't any 'significant news' right now. Yes, we've had your $8500 for quite some time now, but you shouldn't worry about it. Trust us and know that we are doing our best. Bye for now."
Also, note that "a few weeks" is 6 or more weeks in DP time.
If you don't have money down on the game, then you really have no business downvoting those who do. If someone expresses their annoyance with DP and you downvote them, then put your money and faith in DP on this game. People have a right to know where their money is after all these years, especially those with large pin collections. We don't tell you what to do with your money. At least tell us why you believe DP deserves 100% confidence.
I'm glad to see others stepping up and voicing their frustrations & next steps. Perhaps DP will get the clue.
Do I still want this game? Absolutely. However, I rightfully no longer feel confident in the sustainability of this project. This is based on DP's performance so far, including failing to prove the delays aren't tied to financial problems. I have no clue if/when I'll see this game, so telling me or anyone else that "waiting" is the only option is a feeble-minded opinion (that I intend to ignore).
Failing to deliver a branded product to consumers is obviously a breach of contract. What DP fails to realize is the liability they put on Universal Licensing LLC by not delivering this product. Universal is on the hook here too, whether they, DP, or you like it or not. I lived 6 miles from Universal Studios (Universal Licensing LLC) when I put down my first/last deposits. I still live in California, so game-on should DP push me to go there because it's definitely the proper venue. I think I've been more than patient. DP and ARA were super gung-ho and aligned when I paid my final deposit, so I expected them to come through. They should have worked it out with ARA.
I'm not making threats or making this personal, but DP needs to wise-up...NOW. I know what strings to pluck and have no problem proving it.
Quoted from jpk1972:highdef I am not telling you that waiting is YOUR only option, just that what is our other recourse? I mean if we go class action lawsuit does that even guarantee we get our $$$ let alone ever having the chance of getting our pins. I am in the same boat as you and for the most part I have sat on the sidelines watching the back and forth here for years. If I offended you, that was not my intention and I am just explaining how I feel on the whole matter. Like I said I have one other pin so I am not as familiar with the ins and outs of the hobby. So I am just looking to see what other options are out there for all of us since this thread seems to have become more hostile and full of best and worst case scenarios.
I wrote that post while you posted yours, so no disrespect intended towards you or felt on my end. I'm glad you spoke up as it proves the frustration and uncertainty from those who haven't been vocal about it.
We've been down this path of limited (and/or no) communication from DP before, which is only adding salt to our injury. They need to understand the severity of this situation and how they've contributed to it. I understand why the passive EAs are justifying waiting it out; they selfishly want this game just as much as I do (which is why we bought the damn thing). I used to be the one that barked at the DP/TBL naysayers who trolled this thread and predicted the game would be a non-receivable disaster. Now I owe them an apology.
I work in Product Development, so I have a hard time accepting the execution, timeline of events, and lack of communication. It's one thing to be delayed because of software development, but that's already been cooked! Pinball manufacturing isn't easy, but I was under the impression this baby was ready to go in 2014/15. As I said before, you can't start ordering parts, let alone production without a purchase order. I feel like DP needs to keep it real and come clean on their financial status. In other words, quit stalling us and learn to respect AND appreciate your customers.
At this point, I think it's safer to wave to everyone on the boat from the beach.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Hi def, I will personally fly down get a meeting with the right department and accompany you to Universal Licensing. The way DP communicates with good people who entrusted their money to them is disgusting. I am sure Universal will want a good update about their license and what the people they entrusted too are doing or better said...not doing.
No need to travel Mr. Brandes:
Vince Klaseus
President, Brand Development at NBCUniversal
vince.klaseus(*at*)nbcuni.com
Tricia Chaves
Vice President - Domestic Licensing at Universal Studios
tricia.chaves(*at*)nbcuni.com
Cindy Chang
SVP, Consumer Products, NBCUniversal Brand Development
cindy.chang(*at*)nbcuni.com
Stephanie Sperber
EVP, Universal Partnerships, Licensing and Digital Licensing
stephanie.sperber(*at*)nbcuni.com
Robert Oberschelp
VP, Brand Development at NBCUniversal
robert.oberschelp(*at*)nbcuni.com
Since we can't get answers from DP, perhaps someone at Universal can tell us when we can expect to receive our games. I'm positive Universal would also agree that DP's "no refund policy" is unlawful and unenforceable, especially here in California. As many of you know, corporate licensing departments are typically made up of attorneys or at least attached at the hip to the corporate legal team.
One last thing...PayPal isn't immune either.
Quoted from MPRAMONE:"This aggression will not stand"-the Dude
"This unlawful transaction will not stand" - the Judge
Quoted from MrBally:Well now, we wouldn't want to "Fcuk things up for all others involved" now would we?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/class-action-lawsuit/page/2#post-3676640
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/76#post-3660540
How silly do these posts look now?
The upvotes from people with zero skin in the game are equally silly.
Universal was involved in the review, enforcement of changes, and final say & approval of various licensed assets/collateral.
Courts have concluded that trademark licensors may be held liable for "defective" products (or those not received) under the “apparent manufacturer” doctrine, under which “one who puts out as his own product a chattel manufactured by another is subject to the same liability as though he were its manufacturer.” Burkert v. Petrol Plus of Naugatuck Inc., 216 Conn. 65, 77-78 (1990) (quoting Restatement (Second) Torts § 400).
In fact, the Massachusetts Appeals Court, addressing an issue of first impression, affirmed a $3.35M judgment, holding a non-seller trademark licensor liable under this doctrine. See Lou v. Otis Elevator Co., 77 Mass. App. Ct. 571, 581, rev. denied, 458 Mass. 1108 (2010).
The courts applying the apparent manufacturer doctrine have limited its scope to circumstances in which the trademark licensor substantially participated in the design, manufacture, marketing or distribution of the product. See id.; Burkert, 216 Conn. at 81 (holding trademark licensor not liable as apparent manufacturer).
Other courts have adopted a similar “enterprise theory” of liability, emphasizing the degree of control and integral involvement the trademark licensor exercised over the design, manufacture and sale of the product. See Hebel v. Sherman Equip., 442 N.E.2d 199, 204 (Ill. 1982); Torres v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. Inc., 901 F.2d 750, 751 (9th Cir. 1990) (applying Arizona law).
Quoted from RTR:I don't think Universal would/could do anything but pull the license. I cannot see them doing anything but protecting their own interest. I also fail to see how they have any liability in this whatsoever. And I am pretty sure they have already been paid, so what do they care? I have never seen the angle of Universal Contact = EA's receiving machines. I see the opposite.
Universal is still liable as I pointed out above. I'm willing to bet there is a non-performance clause in their licensing agreement.
No license, means no game, which is no different than the current situation. Did you buy the game based on The Big Lebowski property or did you buy it because it was a DP game? You attach Universal to a lawsuit and they WILL respond. They would start by demanding DP refund the money.
The purpose of today's posts is to state that even though DP is a foreign entity, international waters should not be an issue. This is a Small Claims issue here in California (<$10,000). I don't have to speak Dutch nor hire an attorney in The Netherlands.
Quoted from Hjbondar:Do I think litigation or involving Universal will solve anything? No! In fact, it may only impede the slim chance we have of ever getting our machines.
(
You can find your same exact thought posted throughout the Magic Girl, Predator, and Aliens threads.
Quoted from Hjbondar:I’m not familiar with the details on those. Did they have a contract manufacturer come aboard at the stage Xytech did AND make the investment to redo boards and make engineering samples?
Doesn't matter! Those engineering samples could've been built to secure investment from an outside source. They may have redesigned the board(s) to cut costs as well. We don't know.
DP has not provided any new details on start of production, so as far as I'm concerned, there is no contract manufacturer right now. It also doesn't help that their CM is not versed in pinball assembly or manufacturing. When and how will game #199 ship to its rightful owner?
You also need to remember that DP didn't come clean on ARA until they were called out on it. We've pushed for more transparency, but DP refuses to respect its customers. Let's remember that DP became a business to MAKE A PROFIT. Their problems have become our problem, which is pretty lopsided if you ask me, especially when it's not us making margins on our purchases. Their contract negotiation skills should have been fine-tuned long before shipping their first game. The only reason companies switch CMs is if there's a monetary dispute, significant price increase, quality control issue, or the CM goes out of business. How the hell do you pump out 50 games and then suddenly have a dispute over payment or a price increase if you knew the deal going in from Jump Street? I have reviewed contract manufacturer agreements and these details are spelled out.
If DP wasn't in the wrong, they'd would already been in litigation with ARA. I'm sorry, but it doesn't add up.
Quoted from Hjbondar:You’re preaching to the wrong person. Go back and read my post. I very clearly did not endorse DP’s business or communication practices. I simply have taken a different path than you Re: my personal narrative.
If you take Universal to small claims court and prevail I will be simultaneously surprised and following in your footsteps. The downside risk is no cash from Universal and Propelling Universal towards an adversarial posture with DP that can get in the way of the slimmer by the day chances we have.
I do get it. You want to have this awesome game, just as I do, which is why we ordered it.
It'd be one thing if this drama started back in 2016 with the ARA fallout, but 4-5 years of waiting on a paid preorder is too long. There has to be a point where people pull the ripcord for health and sanity. Sometimes this involves rocking boats. I thought I was buying a pin, not a ticket on Space X.
DP can't blame me or anyone else for pulling out on this game. This would never be tolerated in any other industry or hobby.
Quoted from iceman44:What has led you to this conclusion?
Don't be a dick Iceman. I do owe you an apology for defending DP in the past, so here is that apology.
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