(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

27 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #2465 Tips on removing the upper playfield Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2474 Photo of the updated divertor Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2477 Photos of new tilt graphics side art for TBL Posted by jGraffix (3 years ago)

Post #2506 Factory visit update! Posted by rubberducks (3 years ago)

Post #2926 DP's response to their issue with ARA and game manufacturing. Posted by JimB (2 years ago)

Post #2971 pinghetto contacts ARA for information regarding the delays Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #2973 pinghetto information regarding contacting ARA Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #3056 ARA's email response about DP's claims. Posted by CrazyLevi (2 years ago)

Post #3483 Jaap from Dutch Pinball counters the ARA story. Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3491 ARA counters the Jaap counter to ARA's previous communication! Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3650 Report from a dinner with Barry of Dutch Pinball. Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #3951 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #4259 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #5004 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5229 DP update about an alternative manufacturer Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5461 Details on June 19th DP Livestream Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #6420 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by KoenHeltzel (2 years ago)

Post #6684 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Concretehardt (1 year ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#528 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinzzz:

I dropped out also.Too stressful for me.

Dream theme for me and I pre-ordered after their mysterious expo 2013 announcement, but got out later, before expo 2014.

Glad to have gotten out because I can watch these delays and not feel stressed about it. If they manage to succeed I'll buy one when it's cash & carry.

3 weeks later
#629 4 years ago
Quoted from Dr_Spaceman:

Reading this thread right now is depressing after hoping for excitement.

Yeah, it's like a gut punch, not excitement leading into release.

#634 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Why wouldn't you have open source code to allow swapping out the songs?

It would be one thing to protect LICENSED songs from being messed with, but if that licensed content is not there and has been replaced with generic, then for goodness sake let people mess with them.

#642 4 years ago

What about the call outs? Did the John Goodman issue get answered definitively? What else has been dropped from the game?

#645 4 years ago

Can't get over what a difference a year makes. It feels like the air has been let out of this game, and with no end (release date) in sight.

2 months later
#999 3 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Hey there Dudes,
Don't know if everyone has seen this video of gameplay of TBL.
It was posted November 11th 2015 on Dutch Pinball's Facebook page.
Have a look:
» YouTube video

Nice. That video is the best demonstration of the new instrumental versions of the songs. Which are definite replicas, not just "sound alikes". That gets me excited about this again.

Still needs a lot more sound effects and call outs, but obviously those can come later.

1 year later
#2735 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Did it include an option for high res mode for the display? I.E. not the default simulated dot look.

Now with Stern's LCD out there, along with JJP, the time for dots is over. I hope they update to make the simulated dots an option.

#2737 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It never really made sense to me to have the dot look in a game with so many video clips.

Back in 2014 when it was shown, I thought it was a clever pin nerdy thing to do, which I'm sure is why they did it, but its 2017 now and expectations are different. I'm glad they are considering it and hopefully offer it.

1 week later
#2750 2 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

That wasnt what I heard.I heard "major new player in town" "watch out Stern you got competition" "We got a new manufacturer." "this is great time for pinball."

yeah, that big expo reveal in 2014 wasn't for a hobby project.

Now I understand a lot of that bravado was from Phil, who is long gone from DP, but who would have thought we'd be limping along as we are at this point in 2017.

I desperately want to be a buyer of a TBL, so it's a tough ride.

3 weeks later
#2925 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

There is an issue with our partner ARA which we are trying to resolve.

This seems extremely problematic. This isn't "there's board issues that ARA is trying to resolve", this could be interpreted so many ways including "ARA is scheduled to build some space parts for NASA and their facility is not available to us for the next year".

I don't know, I made that part up. Point is, they went from saying nothing, to saying almost nothing, they are extremely late/slow, people have money tied up, and there are 2 other lawsuits going on currently for failed pinball projects.

This doesn't seem good, and certainly something doesn't add up. Which sucks for everyone.

#2932 2 years ago

New manufacturer seems like starting over. The boards and stuff were made in house at ARA, obviously those won't be going to the new place.

This is a nightmare. I feel for the DP guys, obviously they had an agreement in place.

#2939 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Surely ARA wouldn't feel validated for a cost increase without enumerating to Dutch how their actions (revisions, inefficiencies, bad design) cost them time and money justifying the increase.

I suspect you're right. ARA certainly will have their side to this.

It almost doesn't matter at this point.

lebowski-crash (resized).jpeg

#2955 2 years ago

Can someone post the ARA email?

#2969 2 years ago

Everything I know is from this thread, but I'll just say if these "board problems" turn out to have not been the issue all this time, then DPs version of things is not looking good.

#2980 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Please don't get me wrong. In no way was I hoping for this to turn out this way when I emailed ARA. I was just hoping to find answers somewhere since things had gone silent on the DP side of the fence.
And I will be the first to hopefully stand behind DP if they get a plan of attack put together and are straight forward with the folks that have had their backs both socially and financially for years.
This is a kick ass game. Koen is f*cking awesome with code. The amount of work these guys have put into this machine needs to be enjoyed by the masses.

I think we all want DP to succeed, and want 300 Lebowskis in the world.

Just a shame that there appears to be some big problems, and a shame that radio silence was used as a tactic to manage it.

#3062 2 years ago

It's certainly possible the payments ARA is saying they are owed includes the 1000 euro price increase, and maybe DP stopped paying out of protest. That would be the most kind way to think about it.

But unfortunately DP has been exposed on the "board problems" so you don't know what to think of this.

#3332 2 years ago

It's unfortunate that pre-orders and crowd funding are part of this equation. If customers' money wasn't at risk, this would be some corporate internal dealings, holding up product, let them work it out however they can.

But that is impossible since a lot of people have significant amounts of money on the line and what is happening.

3 weeks later
10
#3676 2 years ago

Considering MOST of their existing customers will not be at TPF, I'd suggest to DP to schedule an email blast with the same information timed as they take the stage. Otherwise the same complaints that came out of Expo will happen, where non-customers will have more information than those with money and pre-orders on the line.

#3680 2 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

Seeing speakers in real time is part of the value provided by shows. If fewer people came to shows because they could see all the content online for free, shows would be less motivated to have speakers, especially when some speakers cost the show money one way or another.

It's like saying no one would go to an Apple product launch because it's online for free and no effort.

There is a bit of competing objectives between show organizers (sell tickets to show) and pinball companies (promote and sell their product), but it seems the idea of debuting new products or breaking information to a room of however many people and not consider the greater world outside the doors (Pinside gets what 3000-4000 per day) extremely small thinking and not how to run a successful company.

#3683 2 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

Now if a pinball company only used pinball shows to announce products or engage with customers, then sure, this is very small thinking on their part.

Yeah, I think we're in agreement here and this is what I'm getting at. There seems to be an outdated philosophy with debuting games and news at shows, where all the effort is put into traveling to the show and no consideration to the internet waiting for the news. So we're left with poor cellphone photos and videos, and second hand reports of what was said.

As a Pinside guy who doesn't get to out to shows, I've seen this play out time and time again.

That's why I made my comment with advice for DP, they've already made this mistake before at the last Expo and there was serious negative blow back from their existing customer base and they are at a critical time of managing their customers carefully.

23
#3812 2 years ago

Bah, this is not the time to announce title 2. I know they want to share exciting news, but it couldn't be at a worse time in their company.

#3827 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Let's hope that the announcement of the game #2 means they've reached a deal with the other CM they've been talking to.

Sort of like how this announcement meant everything was cool:

#4024 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

wonder if Phil was hinting at a remake of BOP when he said the next game would be "back to the future"

I think he was literally speaking of the movies, because he commented about his idea to track the speed of the ball to hit 88 miles per hour or something. Possibly a license they chased but didn't get, or maybe they do have it.

1 week later
#4495 2 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

ebay.com link » The Big Lebowski Pinball Machine New 32 Impossibly Rare

100x more playable than a Magic Girl.

1 month later
#4690 2 years ago
Quoted from Compy:

Hmm, plot twist... Apparently DP's main (or only?) software engineer (Koen) no longer works at DP according to LinkedIn...

That sucks to hear. He was just a paid employee, so do the math.

2 weeks later
#4797 2 years ago

Jack is a minority owner in JJP now. There could be a deal here. Sometimes you have to check your ego and pride if it means all the customers will be taken care of.

27
#4827 2 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

Forget the assumption that DP is broke. I have no reason to even assume that and nobody who suggested they are have any form of proof even remotely indicating that.

Begins and ends with lack of refunds for anyone who wants out.

1 week later
#4925 2 years ago
Quoted from PinBalt:

NSNL:
We don’t have any special news this week. Because of the Ascension Holiday a lot of people take a short break in the Netherlands (including Jaap). We will have more news next week!
Thanks for your patience.
We will send out another update next week.
Kind regards,
Barry (& Jaap)

I'm totally going to not fault them for this non-update. They've taken heat for the radio silence, so at least there is some attempt to change things.

1 week later
#5011 2 years ago

Seems like it will be a LOOOONG road ahead starting over with a new manufacturer.

#5110 2 years ago
Quoted from Cobray:

It appears that ARA has taken the rights to that video also.

UMPG is Universal Music Publishing Group. Nothing to do with ARA.

2 weeks later
#5623 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

If 20% net per unit is correct (and I think it's less) they have to sell around 5 new units for every 1 of the 150 to break even. So they have to have a total run of somewhere around 750 plus 150 to build their way out of this with a new CM. 900 TBLs. That's a pretty big run, I'd certainly be glad if that happened!

I like your analysis. This is a good way to break it down. I wonder if DP has even done this. What is their number, how many machines do they need to sell? Do they even know?

#5626 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

But to your point, the business plan probably kills it.

I swear none of these pinball start ups have anything remotely close to a business plan.

1 week later
#5770 2 years ago

It's positive that this new CM is at least quoting in whatever ballpark they need.

3 months later
#6042 2 years ago

It's mind blowing to consider that the we're wondering whether DP will have a working Lebowski at the 2017 Expo. 3 years after their big debut.

And it seems like the answer will be: no, no "new" prototype game at expo. If anything there will be a photo or video of a game running at the contract manufacturer, but that's it.

1 week later
#6064 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I found the news of Who the new CM is interesting.

I can only guess by your comment this new CM is "known" to us?

#6094 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

After holding out for a long time, they finally caved and paid Andrew Heighway for the 10 Alien machines they were owed, plus other stuff, after he begged them for the cash so he could finish the build of their games. The few that they did then build, they were double or triple selling to other parties.

CT went apopleptic, understandably, after learning what was going on, and Andrew avoiding them like all his other customers. He then sent them 'evidence' of the machines shipping. He promptly sold said machines (including FThs) to a Dutch guy, who drove there with a truck and cash, which he had intended to do all along.

They were supposedly owed into 6 figures, for those machines and other product, and never would have got anything if the new owners hadn't stepped in.

After that experience, I highly doubt they will be in a hurry to risk their or their customers' money again like that.

What a terrible story to hear. I don't doubt it, things seemed desperate at the end (now that we've heard more).

1 week later
#6249 2 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Different era. Boy did it go to shit after that.

Revisiting the threads from Expo 2014 are a trip. I guess I have to give Phil credit for knowing how to throw a good party.

3 months later
#6672 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

JJP was taking money for hobbit, to build outstanding WOZ games, then, when that didn’t work blamed substandard parts for the delay in Hobbit.
JJP also took new money and gave machines to them first whilst the start up guys waited for their games.
This will be what DP will most likely do.

Except in the end a Billionaire bought majority ownership of JJP.

3 months later
#7260 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

DP’s best option was always to take ARA’s 51/49 deal. That was the only way these were gonna get finished. They let ego get in the way of a tough but rational business decision. Starting from scratch was always another money pit & putting their head in the sand about ARA was never going to end well.

That 51/49 deal likely would have meant that the finished units on the floor would have been shipped out immediately. I guess there was suspicion about ARAs long term commitment to pinball and the project, but in a sense if it failed after ARA took over, the blame would be on them.

#7261 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Looking at it on its own, TBL - the machine assets and design are quite valuable. ARA probably look at it this way too.

However, for it to be valuable, it would have to have a potential buyer. Let's look at that list:

I've often wondered if the bowling mech could be replaced by software (think Wii Bowling), to reduce the cost of the machine.

#7308 1 year ago

The only thing that makes sense to me (not a lawyer) about ARA's lawsuit against DP would be for prior work done and not paid for, not future work.

How DP thought they could just walk away and everyone would forget about it is crazy. What was going to happen to those games? Landfill?

Without dealing with the ARA problem, the inevitable happened, and here we are.

Maybe this was always going to be a lose-lose for DP, maybe ARA had them over a barrel from the beginning, and the terms and everything else were untenable. But in a sense that ship sailed the day DP signed with ARA, so it still comes back to them.

#7354 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I hate to even whisper optimism at this point but the legal posturing will get everyone back to negotiations and a deal could be struck outside the courtroom. I wouldn't expect anything soon though.

Is it outside the world of possibilities that the 49/51 deal could still be done?

Whatever sense that made to ARA at the time, that would have to still be the case?

#7496 1 year ago

Jack was willing to build Skit-B's second machine. It seems a lot of aspiring pinball companies love designing pinball, but the manufacturing part is a nightmare. It seems like it would be such a better strategy to create a working alliance with an existing pinball manufacturer, instead of trying to bring on board some outside CM.

That would be my recommendation to anyone who gets the pinball bug again.

#7523 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Really?? Presumably that was before all the shit broke about him not having the Predator license.
What was the second game?

There's still a Youtube video up. Surreal looking back at this now, with Kevin all cleaned up, trying to pretend he was all professional. Him announcing this second game (built by JJP) with NO mention of Predator was what really lit the gas on fire with the rumors at the time.

But my point still remains that there are existing manufacturers that would likely love the money from a 3rd party build.

Screen Shot 2018-05-26 at 9.36.18 AM (resized).png

#7669 1 year ago

Does it even matter, anymore, or did it ever?

If I was producing 3D printers that are subbed out to a company in China and they failed to deliver at the terms I wanted, the buck stops with me.

I'm either a hero and figure out another solution or a zero and the company fails, no matter what the reason. It was my company and it failed to deliver to my customers.

Maybe I walk away from it with some hard lessons learned about how I deal with CMs.

3 weeks later
#7778 1 year ago

Holy hell, more crowd funding? The solution to everything.

#7782 1 year ago

I went and rewatched the clip. What's important is the "Sometimes the bear, well HE eats you"

The movie says HE.

Absolutely doesn't work with any other context than "Bear".
pasted_image (resized).png

Looking at the DP newsletter, they seem to be using a phonetic quote. So they get a pass.

#7823 1 year ago

A Seattle 7 would make more sense if they saw the business potential and ponied up a lifeline, not just come up with an idea to do a gofundme.

2 weeks later
#7902 1 year ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Only a half million euros?

The precedent for the top end of successful Pinball related crowdfunds is in the $50k-$75k mark. Including the Pinball Arcade ones.

Stern Book: $55k
PAPA TV: $58k
Pinball Arcade... $50k - $75k.

To go for a magnitude of 10 over what were very high profile pinball crowdfund projects, and it's to pay for a legal bill with "raffles" as a prize... this is just not well thought out.

It's funny, because in the first 20 seconds of the video, they reminded me why I wanted a TBL in the first place. THAT is what they need to shore up... future buyer interest. Not to take my money, but to make sure there is someone to sell a game to later, otherwise, what was the point?

What if they built a list of buyers (already money in) and potential interest buyers (like me), whom they can make money from later. Then shop that around to investors. And if you can't build a list of prospects, what do you have left?

#7905 1 year ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Can anyone describe a truly viable path forward short of an angel investor

Angels take chances, but don't just throw their money away. What is presented to an Angel has to make sense, or has a path to victory.

And yeah, I don't know if that path exists. It may have never have existed.

I've often wondered if ANY of the pinball startups had a real plan. Short of Spooky, who demonstrated what real bootstrapping is, because they weren't getting free/easy money from heaven.

#7915 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

290 euros donated so far equals $338. Assessing the current value of a TBL at 20k, the cars at $100 each, and the translates at $200 - looks like Dumb and Dumber are upside down on the gofundme by about $23,162 so far. If nothing else, they are at least consistent in their dumbass business plans.

oh my gosh. You're right. There are 26 prizes stated. 15 cars, 10 translites, 1 machine. So for the whopping total of 20 euros x 26 = 520 euros, they're on the hook to give all those prizes away to those donors. dumbass is a good word. yikes.

#7942 1 year ago

Did any of the Seattle Seven ever do any math about what it would take to crowd fund €500 large?

The Stern book had 444 backers. So that would be €1126 per backer average needed to replicate.

PAPA TV had 724 backers. So in this case that would only need €690 from each of them.

Now, in the PAPA case, the average amount of money was $81.23

And for the Stern book the average amount of money was $124.58

So almost a ten times average for each, needed.

Now, of course the Seattle Seven might have thought they'd get waaaaay more support than either the Stern book or PAPA did. Because this is going to get so much more support than either of those projects..... ummmm, yeah.

So.... 2000 random pinball people step up to save this. In that case you'd only need €250 from each of 2000 people. Piece of cake.

#7985 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Man, Dutch Pinball went from needing $1000 additional a game (according to DP that’s what ARA said they needed ), so 50k for the games held hostage, now they need $500K.

When the shit first hit the fan about circuit boards being a lie, I proposed that they should just pay the $1k per game even if ARA was wrong. Better to sue them after production and get the games out. But that assumes they had the $50k to do so.

What's crazy is if you apply what ARA wanted extra per machine across the ENTIRE run of 300, that would still only come to 300,000 euros. Still cheaper than this gofundme and everyone would have gotten their games.

#8009 1 year ago

So is anyone in this thread besides me a prospective buyer? Would you buy a TBL if they were available?

I'm starting to wonder, beyond the EAs that are owed games, just how much of a market is left for this game. Can they still sell hundreds to generate the profit they need?

1 month later
#8347 1 year ago
Quoted from Mogg:

Would anyone be willing to explain the sign in the background? I’m trying, but can’t find anything. It’s from Vancouver flipout.
[quoted image]

That was Vancouver FlipOut 2016. I was there. Jaap did a Skype Seminar then and it was before the ARA news had broken and they were just behind schedule.

1 month later
#8407 1 year ago

Exactly. All that matters. Screw any of the specs trying to force premature obsolescence.

#8411 1 year ago

Interesting,they dropped the $ in the Title font which I believe was added at the 10th anniversary and is included in the pinball.

3 months later
#8556 10 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Come on Josh! You got pull. Doesn't API want a home run with some baggage? You guys would hit this out of the Park!!!

I'd still like to own a Lebowski. In a hypothetical scenario where AP built it, I'd even be ok with dropping the lower playfield as a cost cutting and create some sort of bowling video mode to replace it.

1 month later
#8669 9 months ago

Thanks for going to the source, unigroove. Funny how simple that can be for getting a straight answer.

4 months later
#9592 4 months ago

Remember when we were told contract manufacturing for pinball was going to be awesome? Seems like it was pitched as a "pinball is easy" solution back then as well.

#9760 4 months ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Can someone post this video please, I was not there
Cheers

The presentation video is gone now. I found the old thread and the links are dead.

Phil opened up taking issue with Gary Stern's "I'm a manufacturer" line, instead declaring himself a pinball company, and if all you are is a manufacturer you might as well manufacturer coffins to put yourself in. Or something to that effect, definitely involved coffins .

5 years later, Stern has never been bigger and DP was a complete clusterf_ pretty much since that night.

#9763 4 months ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Here's the audio:

https://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2014/dutchpinball.mp3

Besides Phil's (now) ridiculously brazen boastings, the drunk in the crowd is memorable.

Nice. His actual quote was worse than I remembered it above. You can start at 1 minute 00.

1 month later
#10489 3 months ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Barry is confident there’s a market for 500 more TBLs at $12.5k

uhh, this next quote disputes that:

Quoted from fosaisu:

Per Barry, 55 games were initially shipped to EAs, 135 EAs are still owed games

How many of those were sold at $8500? And that's still only a combined 190 sold. To say the market would buy 500 more at the $12.5 number is a reach.

2 months later
#11180 19 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I think it’s a better bet then 500 CE Wonka’s at 12.5k personally.

What are the actual sales of CE games though? I think it’s a fraction of the actual limit.

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