(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)

By Nilroc

4 years ago

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Topic index (key posts)

26 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #2465 Tips on removing the upper playfield Posted by sd_tom (2 years ago)

Post #2474 Photo of the updated divertor Posted by sd_tom (2 years ago)

Post #2477 Photos of new tilt graphics side art for TBL Posted by jGraffix (2 years ago)

Post #2506 Factory visit update! Posted by rubberducks (2 years ago)

Post #2926 DP's response to their issue with ARA and game manufacturing. Posted by JimB (2 years ago)

Post #2971 pinghetto contacts ARA for information regarding the delays Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #2973 pinghetto information regarding contacting ARA Posted by pinghetto (2 years ago)

Post #3056 ARA's email response about DP's claims. Posted by CrazyLevi (2 years ago)

Post #3483 Jaap from Dutch Pinball counters the ARA story. Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3491 ARA counters the Jaap counter to ARA's previous communication! Posted by Rarehero (2 years ago)

Post #3650 Report from a dinner with Barry of Dutch Pinball. Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #3951 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #4259 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Rensh (2 years ago)

Post #5004 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5229 DP update about an alternative manufacturer Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #5461 Details on June 19th DP Livestream Posted by Nikonokin (2 years ago)

Post #6420 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by KoenHeltzel (1 year ago)

Post #6684 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Concretehardt (1 year ago)

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#22 4 years ago

How did I miss this thread until now? So glad I stayed in.

1 month later
#73 4 years ago

Cointaker is bringing one. They are the new Distributor for TBL.

1 month later
#181 4 years ago

At allentown they did not get the rug there in time so they used a look a like rug. That was the only reason.

1 month later
#373 4 years ago

#121 here.

3 months later
#505 4 years ago

I heard that 2 new TBL's will be there, Production models, not prototypes.

3 weeks later
#666 4 years ago

Why, Why, Why cant any preorder go as planned????

1 month later
#891 3 years ago
Quoted from Biv:

3% is what Paypal eats up from all transactions.
You normally don't see that when you purchase something, cause the vendor has to "pay" that fee.
But just try to use Paypal for sending money as a gift to someone, and you'll see these 3% added to your bill

But if they refund through papal the fee is refunded too.

6 months later
#1671 3 years ago

Are they still doing 1 per week?

9 months later
#4003 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Who wants #56!? Sitting there at ARA since Sept! Who wants to take the gamble? I'm over it.

how much?

#4038 2 years ago

Any one have a video of Jaap's seminar at TPF? Other then the 3 minute clip of BOP (Big Over Priced)

1 month later
#4762 2 years ago
Quoted from lamihh:

No it was way higher as I've ordered at a later stage. It was nearly a grand more.
With Alien arriving on Tuesday I'm getting my dream theme machine for my man cave

You were either an early achiever at 8500, Or a preorder guy with possible refund rights at 10,000, When did you order and what did you pay? I know at one point Melissa was willing to buy out early achievers at cost (8500) to resell at current cost (10k) but last I heard they no longer wanted to do so (made me want to jump ship!) Early achievers cannot get refunds, Only later folks that did not pay in full, Only had a deposit down that DP never got ahold of.

#4814 2 years ago

Will ARA care about code updates and make the game good? They have no programmer right now. What if they just produce as is and ship an incomplete game that will not get the needed code updates to make it a great game? That is what scares me.

2 weeks later
#5035 2 years ago

Hard to believe only 2 or 3 early achievers want them to take the deal and get the games made. Some one please start a poll so we can send them the real numbers.

1 week later
#5240 2 years ago

Does anyone else think this is just another stalling tactic? They admitted they had no money. They said before if they went to a new CM that they would need to build BOP 3.0 first to raise capitol to make TBL. If they had money, Why no refunds? This is another "board issue" stalling tactic to shut everyone up for a month or more. NSNL No Shit New Lies!

#5279 2 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

Let's hope these are both right. If DP isn't paying that means they have the money, minus BOM for 300 games.

Or they spent all the money trying to look like rock stars at all the pinball shows.

#5281 2 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

At the time, that was referred to as marketing, something pinball companies have never been known for.

If you have a profit margin of $1500 per machine and 200 machines sold and paid for that is $300,000. That is long gone and then some. That is why they do not have the money to pay ARA. How much did they blow at expo alone? If ARA truly wanted an extra 1k per machine, That would leave 500 profit before shipping costs to get them to there respective countries. Too thin a margin, Too much partying. I hope they take an investor, or let someone buy a majority of the company to get our machines made.

#5301 2 years ago

I hope they will answer questions Honestly on the 19th.

#5350 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I'm thinking if Rensh paid 7500 euros in 2014 that would have been about $10500 usd. If I remember correctly, US buyers were paying about $9k usd. This would suggest DP was not paying the VAT for the customer.

USA buyers were paying 8500 including any import fees.

#5405 2 years ago

A good question might be How much money have you paid to ARA already (if any) and how much is still owed? We are all assuming ARA are the bad guys here. The other side of the story is DP never paid their bills, that is why productions stopped.

#5447 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

why can't DP arrange for the names of the people who have bought machines (and paid up to DP fully) to be given to ARA and then let ARA deal with the buyers directly so that if you want to pay the extra to get your machine directly to ARA you can? Also allow ARA to sell parts to the many machines that are broken right now.
how long has this farce being going on for?! Since before April!!
Everyday longer is a day that your credit card company reduces or your legal rights reduces by agreeing to the madness that DP are percolating here.

It has been 3 years since most of us have paid in full. Credit card protection is gone. The rumor is ARA has not been paid at all. If we dealt with them directly that would mean paying twice. We cannot let DP get away with that. They need to be held accountable.

#5458 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

Totally agree that DP must be held accountable but that accountability is likely that they go bust. The problem is the lack of facts. Facts are needed. Has anyone contacted ARA thats a buyer? Can we get them on a webcast? If I knew I could pay them the extra $1000 and know I'd get my machine after shelling out $5K+++ then I'd do it. If ARA haven't been paid then I feel really bad for you all; It will be just a matter of time before DP go bust, then ARA can do what they like.


5k? The cheapest you could get in for was 8500. Now the price is 10,000

#5469 2 years ago

Sure looks like they are out of money.

#5474 2 years ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

How so? ARA was providing all the financing.

Why did they need financing if we all paid 8500 already? If ARA has not been paid, Where is the money we all paid already?

#5593 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

If you watched that entire WebEx and you still think these guys from DP are full of shit then you need to reassess your ability to read people.
Bottom line: These guys should have done this project in the U.S. where they would have been protected by contract laws and this never would have happened. It's clear that Barry and Jaap are sincere but obviously were a little out of their league in terms of running a business in Europe. It's that simple.
Also, it's fair to note that after watching this entire interview, it's clear that 88% of the comments on Pinside and in this thread are biased, inaccurate, and based on pure emotion rather than facts.
ARA clearly knew they had a piss ant pinball company that they could abuse and bet their strong hand against the possibility that DP would sue knowing that would be a route that DP would never take and would more than likely bankrupt the company before seeing it to fruition.

You are only hearing what DP wants you to hear. ARA's side of the story is DP did not pay the bill, at all, even for the games already shipped. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. They are broke, The money is gone. They are done. Why would they need financing if our preorder money was still there? They wouldn't.

#5595 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

You're an ill informed skeptic with zero listening or business skills. Do you "honestly" believe that two guys who want to build this pinball, knowing they weren't going to get rich out of it, are going to not pay a bill that interferes with their ultimate goal? Once again, highly doubtful.

If they did not have the money to pay the bill, absolutely believe that.

#5597 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

And once again like the other 50,000 posts in here, you have only speculation and zero facts.

You only have DP's word. Which is worthless. They are know liars. This is just another stalling tactic by them. If they cannot afford to refund us, How can they afford to make the games? They cant. That is why they need financing for games that are already 100% paid for. FACT

#5714 2 years ago
Quoted from TRAMD:

This is another story of sad failure in the boutique pinball world where a few people made out like bandits with super-rare games, DP never gets to make another machine again and a few dozen people get screwed out of $8500. Count on it. I don't see how this goes any other way. I don't think DP are bad guys, they are just bad businessmen and were foolish with spending your money.

about 50 people fully paid and have the machine. About 140 of us are fully paid without receiving anything. Alot more then a few dozen, 140 at risk of losing $8500. It's worse then you thought.

#5718 2 years ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

News flash, for all those who keep trying to claim it's a pyramid scheme, those who have machines better hope not. Just ask all the early Bernie Madoff investors. Everyone gets shafted if that's the case. Even if you sold yours, you are still liable.

We are not investors. We are customers, those who got the machine got lucky. How are they liable for buying a product? None of us invested to gain profit. We bought a product, and the company has let us down by going though our purchase money. Not paying their bills and not delivering the products already paid for by us, the consumers.

#5730 2 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

If ARA was in such breach of contract and DP is so confident they would win. It makes no sense at this point not to refund everyone, let the dream die and take em to court. Then with large sum of winnings as ARA ruined their company. Then start over.
The bullshit runs deep with the reasoning. The love of pinball yeah right.

Because they do not have the money to refund us.

#5780 2 years ago

I really hope this is true and not just another stall tactic to keep us quiet. Hopefully they come with some details and some proof as their word is worthless these days.

#5813 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Currently at $10k, and likely much worse in EU (with taxes)? No chance in hell.
If they could get the price down and start knocking them out, they could certainly sell a hell of a lot more than 300, though.

The license is for only 300. A machine was destroyed in transit and they have to fix it instead of replace it, because replacing it would mean 301. Unless the get a new license 300 is the most we will ever see.

1 week later
#5876 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Bruce Nightingale, one of the hosts of the Slam Tilt pinball podcast, stated on their latest episode that DP cannot legally reproduce any parts that ARA has designed. I have no idea offhand as to what degree this is true or applicable, nor how much of an impact it will have on DP's future game production (e.g. how much DP may need to modify the existing part designs), but this is a potential need for re-engineering the game to a certain extent.

What episode was that? I am trying to find it.

Found it, episode 51 about 24 minutes in.

1 month later
#5979 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

ARA is suing DP? If true, the suit should not end in ARA's favor. Contract with DP was to deliver 300 TBLs in 2015 for a set price - as we all know that did not occur. Difficult case to win to allege you were not paid for your work if you didn't perform the work you were to be paid for.

You got that right, But they were NEVER paid. That is one of the reasons they can sue. Of course they stopped production when they never got paid.

1 month later
#6058 2 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Rumor I heard was 2 games retrofitted with new boards at expo.
Full new machine at DPO.
Just a rumor but I hope it’s true.

I heard the same thing. Some one will have to look under the playfield to see if it's true.

#6073 2 years ago

TBL Now made in China!

1 week later
#6218 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

So what will become of the ARA built TBLs? Will they be disassembled and sold for parts? I assume the license won't allow ARA to sell them assembled on the open market.

What will happen when ARA sues DP for the games they already shipped and did not get paid for? The ARA mess is not over yet. I heard a rumor that a lawsuit is in the works from ARA against DP seeking damages for the games they shipped and the games and parts they purchased and built.

#6224 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Nobody but JAAP and his god know for certain, but I believe he has $200k . So yeah I think this would be feasible. But could it be too difficult?

If they owe ara for the 50 or so machines shipped, Plus the 50 or so sitting on the ARA floor, Plus parts, pieces, ect.... That Could be well over 1,000,000 they owe ARA. If ARA sues and wins, That's all folks. No more DP. I do not get how you could think getting sued would do DP any good. That is the worst case scenario for DP.

#6227 1 year ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

This is a members only thread only TBL members should be posting here. I like the new CM, new board set, and the plan to build in China. Once the line starts rolling the games should move pretty quickly so waiting a little longer won't be that much longer. ARA suing DP and winning isn't a reality. DP suing ARA and winning is more likely, but I would expect ARA to settle with DP well before that happens. You heard it here first- and No, I do not work for DP or have been given any extra information.

How could DP win? They never paid for the games ARA delivered, Never paid for the games waiting to be delivered. ARA took on all the expenses to be left high and dry. They have a great chance of ARA suing and winning. No way in hell DP comes out ahead when and if this happens.

#6231 1 year ago

Wow EternalLife, You really are drinking the Kool-Aid. After how DP has Lied to us so much in the past, Can you believe Jaap? ARA will win when and if they sue. I just hope DP gets an investor with deep pockets so when that happens there is still a slight chance in hell that the EA's will get our games we paid for over 3 years ago.

#6233 1 year ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

I believe in DP and Jaap. The DP open will have a working new generation TBL, we'll all have our games shortly after. ARA never disputed they sent a higher invoice, they also fired their head guy. If ARA was in the right, they would have filed a long time ago..Or is it, "I'm not suing because I don't want the money you owe me for my work and all these parts" so crazy, I almost spilled my kool-aid.

Lawsuits take time. They should not be rushed into. It is in motion from what I have heard. They spent money, Invested in parts, put out a product, and received nothing in return.

We will all have our games shortly..... Heard that 3 years ago, Now they are starting over from scratch. If i would have invested my 8500 in the s&p500 and waited and paid the 10K when they are ready to ship I would be ahead. If shortly means 2019, then Maybe shortly, If ever.

#6236 1 year ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

You'll have your TBL before you see a lawsuit from ARA. Need to submit a correct invoice in order to receive payment, if they wanted to be paid they would have. ARA held the project hostage for most of the time we all have been waiting. But you're angry with DP ?

How do you know they didn't? Because Jaap the liar said so? Until they answer all our questions or show us the contract we cannot sit back and take their word for it. Keep drinking the Kook-Aid

#6273 1 year ago
Quoted from Bearcat:

Maybe they should try to get a few new manufactured games out on route before expecting to get paid in full for new orders.

Because they have no money and need new orders to help pay for the ones already paid for.

#6387 1 year ago

No new shit newsletter again this week?

1 month later
#6567 1 year ago
Quoted from Dr_Spaceman:

Predicting delivery dates is only “impossible” if you have no idea what is happening. I’ve had some cautious optimism about one day actually getting my TBL. These guys appear to be making things move along, but that statement takes a big dump on that optimism. You have engineering samples so the bill of materials should be set. You know what parts are needed, where to get them, how much they cost, and how long it takes to build with an inexperienced team that should only get faster. What is missing to give delivery estimates?
I’d guess the missing element is funding which needs to be supplemented by new orders that also need to be built. If there was strong confidence that will not be a problem we should have dates. An approach like building 10 new orders and then a couple early achievers would be nice and is predictable. We don’t have dates.

The fact that they have not ordered parts yet is also troubling.

1 month later
#6619 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Any update on the games being held hostage?

They still have not paid the first factory, So nothing has been done.

1 week later
#6634 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Yea, there are only hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting in limbo, waiting for any news, but by all means, lay in bed and get better. Newslettering is hard..

You mean Millions of dollars missing, Pre order money is gone. They already admitted that.

2 months later
#6885 1 year ago
Quoted from turbo20lbs:

What is the fate of the machines sitting in boxes from the last manufacturer, and how many was that? Does anyone really know?

It was about 50 games. Fate unknown. The first manufacturer never got paid for the games they shipped, or the games in boxes. Surprised their suit against DP has not been filed yet.

#6900 1 year ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

I doubt they went into business with DP without a personal guarantee signed on the note. If they did, they are retarded. There had to be some assets put up as collateral for them to assume the liability of ordering all the parts. My guess is that all the ecu’s purchased by DP that they held hostage were part of it. I’m sure DP funded a lot of the prototyping as well.
But then again, as we all know, ARA never did order all the parts. To have a lawsuit there has to be actual damages. By not ordering all the parts as contracted, ARA really just hosed themselves. Missed payment or not, they are in default of the contract by failing to deliver as promised. I really don’t see ARA having strong legal footing anywhere in this deal.

ARA never got paid for the delivered games, Or the completed games. Maybe they needed that money to order the parts. DP screwed them, and DP broke the contract by not paying the bills was my understanding.

#6951 1 year ago
Quoted from swillie:

No skin in the game for me...i'm rooting for DP to get this ship righted. Easy to be patient with no money in it though, can't imagine the frustration of the early achievers. rensh will the EA's still be receiving the rug? Assuming those were already made by now, should they at least be getting those sent out as a show of faith?

Rug is included for everyone now. Only thing EA's get is a little plaque and a loooooong wait.

#6959 1 year ago
Quoted from pinsanity:

Much like Heighway reborn, no doubt that if someone were to show a wad of cash as payment in full they would magically find themselves at the front of the elastic queue with a number and confirmed shipping date.
Aliens have been landing regularly down under for some time now.
Solvency is their predominant respective hurdle.

I really doubt that. They have not even ordered parts yet. They may go to the front of the line, but that line has no date for started production yet.

2 weeks later
#6990 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Mismanaged funds and over promising will do DP in as well. If people have money in on T, I'd try to get it back. If the company survives, then buy again.

People have asked for refunds. DP has already stated they do not have the money to refund us.

#7014 1 year ago

Since they are out of money and new order profits are funding the preorders. How many at 10K do they need to sell to raise enough for build the 150 pre-paid orders? 300? 400? Is it possible that many people will buy a 10k machine from a failing company?

#7080 1 year ago

Has anyone confirmed that DP still has the license to The big lebowski? Hard to believe it has not expired yet. Could that be what is holding everything up?

#7247 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

This document cost me $9:
My attorney is $450/hr, so I got taxed on that earlier today as well. This game is a gift that keeps on giving. I should probably find another hobby.
I do have a more interesting discovery that I'll share later this evening after I've cleared my head with exercise.

What is the more interesting discovery?

#7337 1 year ago
Quoted from rlslick:

From a reputable source, my understanding is that ARA continued to want to renogitiate the cost of production and parts before the original contract agreed upon was fullfilled.
ARA knew a majority of the deposits and paid in full $’s were being held in the U.S. Funds were released and paid to ARA once the games made it to their rightful owners. That was agreed upon and in the contract as well.
I suspect some greed on ARA’s end. After seeing how much the games were selling for, the demand, ARA wanted a bigger piece of the cut. They figured by the time they had 40 games ready to go, mine being one of them, they could hold off from shipping them and force DP to renogiate or they would sell the games themselves.
I believe the breech of contract happened way in advance by ARA prior to building and delivering the first 300 TBL’s. ARA says otherwise. Suppose and hope some info with regards to the contract details is publicized.

You are assuming ARA got paid. Rumor is they were never paid for the first 50 games that were shipped.

#7489 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

If you are sitting on cash, full payment for 50 or 100 or 200 games, what rational reason would cause you NOT to pay? Answer: breach of contract.

Because they spent the money. Did not have it to pay ARA.

#7517 1 year ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

At the end of the day, all we can do is assume. What we know is that ARA is stuck with inventory they can’t move, and DP wants to make a pinball machine. None of us know the financials or the specifics of the contracts. On face value, ARA timed the lawsuit to bankrupt DP to give them a strategic advantage. Why would they need this if they are “in the right?”
If they had a true case, it would have been filed immediately. What they need is a defenseless defendant.

How do we know when they filed? We do not have the dates or documents. DP has been stalling again. Why was production not started in China months ago, Why no updates. I think they knew the lawsuit was coming, Or it came months ago but we are just finding out about it now.

#7527 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No one knows with authority one way or the other. The assumption is games were paid for, but there may have been other monies due... plus ara looking for new pricing.
It’s a he said, she said... for what the additional costs were for and when they started.

Actually the assumption is no games were paid for, That is why ARA would not release the 2nd batch or continue production. That is what the rumors are.

#7533 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Reading parts of this thread I refound ARA's response over a year ago as to why they stopped producing games. They claim non payment, which makes logical sense. Speculation was DP was mostly out of the money or had a little but far short of what was neded.

BAM there it is. Thank you so much for posting this. I do not know how anyone can still be drinking the kool-aid now. DP has continued to lie, and stall.

#7602 1 year ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Good question DCFAN, why would we need to find a way forward- we don't. But it benefits us and all the other EA's if we do so we'll try. That being said, we're forming the "Seattle Seven". We are EA's brainstorming ways to end ARA involvement in TBL and restart the line. Doesn't it seem like whenever ARA is involved everything grinds to a halt? LOL.. 90 games in only two years, nice job ARA - you must have been working in shifts!
If you want to join us, everyone with a sense of humor is welcome - not just EA's. PM me and We'll fill you in on the details.

The 51% / 49% offer that ARA had offered in the past was our best bet for getting games delivered. Hopefully they will offer it again or maybe a 75% / 25% with ARA in the majority and the games can be produced and shipped again. Nothing has gone right with DP in charge of this mess.

2 weeks later
#7747 1 year ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

No I mean there has been more current refunds
If ARA hasn't been paid I am sure DP has money to refund.

DP did not have the money to pay ARA. They have been broke for years.

#7785 1 year ago

Looks like a liquidation sale to me. Sell off the parts now so they have no assets left when the creditors come to collect. Sneaky bastards.

1 week later
#7856 1 year ago

If an EA bought it do they get an $8500 discount for what they have already paid???

2 weeks later
#7965 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Holy shit. I respected Highdef and I found him intelligent and credible. To learn he's been a poser after all of these months is very disappointing.

I think Pinside put him on a vacation after something he posted attacking another member who was attacking him via PM. He did get a refund. It is not for me to share the proof, but he did get a refund.

#8045 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Sorry RTR, have to agree with Rubberducks. Damned, would be nice if I could sync with RTR. Had a beer on the island RTR cheering to you .
ARA has for sure no interest in assembling more machines. They will sell off the finished goods and parts and that’s it. They have no roots in the pinball industry so without designers people who know what players-buyers want etc what would be the use? Any loss leftover would be a write off for them and than game over.
Must admit this has always been the biggest puzzle with me. Why did ARA do so much work and investments and than not finish at least the first 300 pcs???? Would have been more easy and even if they would have been produced at a loss for sure less a loss than they are looking at now. Guess that’s why manager Rene was fired .... business wise ARA didn’t make much sense to me.
Oh, and in case ARA wins the courtcase is EA are screwed. They will never give the 40-50 pcs to the first EA’s in line. They will go, like the parts, to the highest bidder

Why did they not finish? They never got paid for the work they did. Why would they continue is the better question.

#8051 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I am totally in agreement with this. We are finally in sync
But why was dP running out of money? The units were supposed to be built in 2015 by ARA !! Summer 2016 it still wasn’t done and 2 years running a company (1 Yr more as calculated at that moment) costs money and no new income was generated. And than ARA rose the price substantially which dP even agreed to IF they would make them all in 2016 plus 50 pcs BoP. These extra sales were needed to cover the losses caused by ARA in the first place. And guess what, in October 2016 it showed ARA hadn’t even ordered the parts for the BoP. So than DP terminated the new agreement. So much for reliable ARA. And remember, Ara had full access to the DP books. So they knew exactly in ewhich financial state DP was in when they promised delivery 2016 incl 50 pcs. BoP. They knew they had to make the extra units to cover the losses they caused but still didn’t do it. So their whining on we didn’t get paid was all their own doing !!
If I am accusing DP of anything is that they didn’t waterproof the contract against delayed deliveries. But must also admit that the behavior of ARA is unusual in Dutch business and certainly of a bigger company.

Why did it take so long? They had problems with the license, they could not get the music or images right, They had problems with the parts. Hard for ARA to build machines that were not ready to be built. DP did not have their shit together, leaving the contract manufacturer helpless. Remember they had to have Roger sharp come in and help with some of those things. Why would they order parts for BOP when they were not getting paid for what they did? I would not spend more money out of pocket if bills were not getting paid.

#8068 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

The game raffled was 1 of the TBL Prototypes from ARA I believe. I would imagine as the production manufacturer has changed, with different boards and 2 new prototypes with Xytech, that these are no longer needed and are being used to raise capital.
I know EAs want to be updated. This is DP biggest opportunity.
How do you think ARA found out about the new manufacturer, and that DP was going to start production. Then Lawsuit happens... it’s most likely from this forum.
If DP was to update EAs, do you think that ARA would not find out about it and use it to their advantage in the court case?

We do not know when the lawsuit was started. If could have been over a year ago. DP is not giving us the information. Considering their lies in the past. It would be hard to believe them anyway.

#8070 1 year ago

Maybe that’s why they are trying to bankrupt DP.

Are they trying to bankrupt DP, Or just get paid for the parts they bought, produced, and the games they have made and not been paid for?

#8076 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

This I don’t know.. but if ARA weren’t paid for the games they made it parts bought I would think that they would have taken DP to court a long time ago as DP had money then.. and so ARA could have got € and it would have been an easy case I would think. But why a yr later? Now probably less money due to Xytech proto investment etc..

DP did not have money then, That is why ARA never got paid. Jaap so much as admitted it.

#8077 1 year ago
Quoted from Biv:

I bet that most EAs would be willing to put up to maybe 4k € again....but only on delivery of a machine and not for some preorder/get-the-production-going stunt

Anther 50%. Hell no.

#8082 1 year ago
Quoted from Biv:

May I ask why not?
So you are paid in full with 8k and now have the choice of:
- do nothing and flush these 8k down the toilet
- spend another 4k and get a TBL
Yes you would spend 12k for a pin, but the resale value of this machine would be most likely higher, even if they produce another 100-250 pcs.
Heck, I could even see EAs spend another 8k for a guaranteed pin, as even then it's at least a zero sum game. (of course only of you plan on selling it one day)

I agreed to pay 8500. no more. unless they finish the code and provide support that is pushing the limit for me. If more are made the value will be what some one is willing to pay. If people could get them new for 10k, then 10k for a new one will be the value, deduct a little once it is opened.

#8083 1 year ago

Here is another just at worthy go fund me

aaaaahahaha (resized).JPG
#8090 1 year ago

Well the go fund me is now closed. I hope the $750 it raised buys Jaap and Barry a nice dinner at least.

7scam (resized).JPG

#8113 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

If EAs send
full name
TBL Serial Number
Proof of number- picture

You can invite me to the private forum, But why do you need my personal information? I am on the list of EA's in the previous thread with my true serial number.

#8166 1 year ago

I do not understand why anyone is not willing to share the info. So here it is.

nsnl (resized).JPG
#8218 1 year ago

Cannot find that thread

#8246 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

So it's not messed up? See how this is confusing to us? Should I buy a game now since all is good.

I am sure there are plenty of us willing to sell you our pre-order.

#8248 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

I'll wait and see if RTR proclaims that the situation is not still SNAFU. My gut feeling is that I won't be buying one...

My gut feeling is that no more will ever be made.

#8251 1 year ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

Anyone pay in full waiting?

About 130 of us paid in full and have been waiting for 4 years now.

2 weeks later
#8281 1 year ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Again, it's all about the money. The company has no more money. Future customers bring in new money. Prepaid customers and present owners have no more money to give.
Do you suggest a software programmer work for free to enhance games that are already working and worth a lot of money when there is no chance of compensation from future sales ?

They have had over 4 years to complete the code. The game is nothing like it was promised to be when we ordered it. Such a shame.

#8286 1 year ago
Quoted from mcbPalisade:

Because it is way-hard to get right. Witness AP & Houdini, still changing things 9 months after out-the-door.

Houdini code was great out the door. They keep making it better with more animations and callouts and improvements. They care about the game.

1 week later
#8315 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

They should take out a loan, pay off area for the games sitting in boxes, ship them to the ea's and close shop. This trying to build games with new Money to eventually satisfy their obligations will never work. Game over.

So if they owe ARA 1.5 million. They take a loan, pay ARA 1.5 million, 40 early achievers get their games. DP in now 1.5 million further in debt and the rest of EA's get the shaft??? That would still leave 100 Early Achievers fucked. and DP would have to file bankruptcy. Not that they are not that far away from that already.

1 month later
#8391 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Can someone recap the approx money at risk by class? Something along the lines of ...
50 paid in full to DP ~ $10k
100 downpayments paid to DP ~ $5k
20 deposits to DP ~ $2k
50 refundable deposits @ Distributors ~ $2k
^^ Let me know how to tweak these.^^
I am trying to put the general malaise into perspective. If 150 people in a small industry lost more than $5k, that is a big impact. Maybe 75 of that class are on Pinside and they should meet and connect with the other 75 folks to discuss how to better their situation. The rest of Pinside who follows this thread have no skin in the game. Many of us here have strong opinions about past events and also wish to see games made and EA’s to get what they paid. But the bubble has burst, that time has passed and things are FU@KED!! The 40 boxed TBL will be sold and I blame Dutch nihilists

about 180 paid in full ($8500) to DP. Rest have a refundable 1k deposit with a distributor.

#8394 1 year ago
Quoted from Frogman:

Pinball News included this in the most recent newsletter, "There is some news regarding Dutch Pinball, but due to the personal nature of this news, I'll let Dutch Pinball go public first whenever they feel the need to do so." Hard to imagine it's good news.

Jaap is in the hospital undergoing treatment for an illness. I am pretty sure that is what they are referring to.

1 week later
#8405 1 year ago

All of the old movies being re-released in 4k have looked like crap so far. If it is just up converting it is a waste.

3 weeks later
#8439 11 months ago
Quoted from Londonpinball:

Free pin cup and shipping to the first EA to post the names of the guys who stole your money .
Pinhead1982 you are eligible for the prize

Are you referring to Jaap and Barry?

#8470 11 months ago
Quoted from Londonpinball:

Pinhead1982 saw with his own eyes it is real, hahaha he drank the coolaid
When you Steel all the money and make up BS about a “new manufacturer” with zero money left or credibility to pay.
Pinhead1982 are you miss guiding EA’s to help DP avoid legle responsibility?

Xytech is real. They did make a couple prototypes. The business plan was for them to make the games in china, maybe less features. Sell new games for new money first. Early achievers that already paid go to the back of the line. IF a profit was to be made that money could be used to fund the early achiever paid for games. Xytech was to fund everything because DP has been broke for a few years now.

#8472 11 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

It's shameful that they'd go that route instead of working things out with ARA. Even if the terms weren't ideal for Barry & Jaap, they would have been better served to do right by their customers, then leave ARA after TBL & try to do something else with the lessons they had learned.

But they owed ARA lots of money they did not and could not pay due to poor management on DP's end. That is why ARA sued them. They should have taken ARA's offer of the 51% and got our games made. Instead they are going to screw over xytech just like they did ARA.

3 weeks later
#8500 10 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

So 6 weeks for now, there might be a hope that TBL production will resume ? I would be first in line to get one, we are lucky enough to have one on location here in San Francisco, TBL is a masterpiece in every possible way, the game, the theme, the give me the f**** money, the dude's head in the toilets, it's just endless, really never felt that excited about a game !

Project is dead. They heave been out of money for years, Now they are being sued by their contract manufacturer for non payment. Case went to court 1 month ago. Even if they win they have no money to fulfill the 100 or so units that have already been paid for at 8500 each.

#8506 10 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

I agree with you there is no debate there, the money for the 100 machines is gone, delivering these 100 will be a loss. All I am saying is that the loss won't be 850.000 but a smaller number.

The cost to produce at ARA was around 6500 each including license . Then you have to get them to the customers around the world and pay import taxes and shipping. After that there was never going to be a big profit on this game.

#8508 10 months ago

Those are the numbers given to me by a former employee

3 months later
#8632 7 months ago

I think it is an Early April fools joke. Did anyone else listen to the whole thing?

3 months later
#9108 3 months ago

My buddy called Melissa and said all the 40 games are sold.

#9343 3 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

That many? That's a lot of $$. Wonder how many were fully paid.

Last numbers were about 185 fully paid at $8500. Only about 50 got the machines

#9417 3 months ago
Quoted from Yesh23:

How many EA are there that’s paid in full? So outside of DP finding funds to cover production, never going to happen. They’re going to cover the number of machines paid in full times $5000+ (cost of each machine). EA don’t hold your breath, this was a cash grab for money owed to ARA, CT and reducing debt owed by DP.....game over

about 185 paid in full. about 50 delivered = about 135 people paid at 8500 (1,147,500) owed to the EA's. Cost to make was around 6500 ($877,500) needed to break even.

#9422 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Doesn’t the 185 paid in full orders include the 40 with a $1k deposit at CT that wasn’t lost? The cost to make each was closer to $5k (ARA is owed $500k for building 90 games plus parts inventory to build 20?? more. We’ll call it 100 games. As a reference, LE’s with toys like GB, are alleged to cost Stern $3.5k - $4k to build). If you agree, adjust your figures accordingly.

6500 per machine was a number given to me by a previous DP employee. Stern orders tens of thousands of parts and does not us a proc. That is how stern builds games much much cheaper.

#9425 3 months ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Was that for Chinese manufacturing though? Obviously it's all extremely speculative, but if they got that up and running they'd presumably have some serious savings on labor over the EU.

China is off the table according to last NSNL

1 week later
#9545 80 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Quoted from Roostking:

Nobody in their right mind is going to work with DP again.

Disagree. If games are boxed and sitting inside Cointaker or Nitro's warehouse for immediate shipping, they will sell and I think sell very well.

DP owes 150 games that have been paid in full. They are about 1.3 million in debt with no assets. Who in their right mind would partner with them?

#9614 78 days ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

unless ARA is going to warehouse these parts during the break, it appears barry has a lot more to move in the next 24 hours than just 40 assembled games: 100 additional unassembled games, and the 'more expensive parts' for yet 100 more. if there really are 200 loose cabs, pfs, bowling alleys, rugs, shot glasses, etc sitting at ARA, hes going to need help relocating and somewhere to put these parts.
big x-factor still remains transparency on the settlement terms. if the sale of the the 40 hostage games is shy of what is due ARA, what percentage did it cover? big difference in how manageable the future looks if it took care of 75% vs only 25%.
who paid for the remaining parts at ARA? if they were all paid by DP then EA equity remains in this inventory, which is a good thing. if ARA fronted money for any parts then DPs settlement liability to ARA may be even greater.[quoted image]

My understanding is there is parts for up to 100 more games. Not 200.

#9624 78 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

The didnt release them before, why would they release them now... And I still think Barry is just going to do a cursory inspection. "Yep, there is a pinball machine in the box, tape er up!"

They have to unbox them, open them and remove our achiever plaques. If I see someone unbox a machine with my EA plaque on it I will loose it for real.

#9728 77 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I think they underestimated the cost by 1keuro... that's all ARA wanted extra per game to continue production... the reason they are so much debt now is not because of an underestimation of the cost to make the games, but because of the massive additional costs if setting up a 2nd company to manufacture and then the legal fees re the ARA disaster...

They were broke before they went to China and Zytech. They were living off of EA preorder money for years. They did not pay ara because they couldn't. Barry may be a good pinball designer, but he is a shitty business man. There is a reason Phil left when he did. Whe should have all taken our refunds and never looked back when that happened.

#9735 77 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

They were living off EA pre order money from the beginning... that's the idea behind the kick-starter project, no?

Do you really know that for a fact?? My belief was that they didn't pay ARA because they wanted an extra 1k/game and they refused in order to not pass that cost back to the EAs... if they couldn't pay ARA, how were they able to spend a fortune setting up the Chinese outfit? Are you talking from facts or assuming?

It is a fact. They spent no money on a new manufacturer. Zytech fronted the money. Rumor is Zytech now wants to be paid so That is more debt DP could be in.

#9777 76 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Collected the stats:
180 EA’s paid DP $10k = $1.8M and received nothing
50 people paid CT $10.5k = $.5M and received a game
40 people paid CT (plus a few other sources) $12.5k = $.5M and will receive a game
40 of this total amount (WAG) have already or will be soon reselling game for $15k - $25k, meaning the buyers paid between $.6M and $1M and received a game.
Overall, people who paid CoinTaker in the first round got the best deal. TBL’s are available so if you want one, now is the time to act. You’ll have to pay market price, and you have to ignore whatever funds has been personally lost.
DP will be lucky to assemble 10 games from the mounds of parts it will be receiving. Games must be built before year end, I have heard from multiple sources. Sep thru Dec is four months. You’ve heard Heck say they’d be lucky to build one a week. Assuming these are assembled we will add
10 people pay DP $20k = .2M and will receive a game.
Total TBL’s built = 100

Your numbers are way off.

190 people paid 8500. 50 got a game. But ARA was never paid for those games
40 people paid cointaker / Nitro 12500 and should be getting a game.
140 people still paid in full and got nothing but a party and a tshirt for their $8500

People that paid cointaker in the first round only game a 1000 deposit. They still needed to pay an additional 11500 to get one of the 40 games.

#9785 76 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

I thought in the podcast posted earlier by Pinballnews they mentioned a company called Zytech??

Zytech is out of the picture. They were never paid for what they already did. Rumor is they are the next to sue DP.

#9788 76 days ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

DP owe Xytech nothing

Zytech fronted the money for everything done in china and the 2 Chinese prototypes. Why does DP not have to pay them?

#9791 76 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

How do you know they did that? I heard that all staff had been laid off and Barry and Jaap were not taking any salary while things were in limbo...

They lied and told us they had to take a salary due to Dutch law.

#9801 75 days ago
Quoted from RTR:

Everyone needs to chill out. I heard a NSNL is coming out soon. That always provides a lot of useful information and clears everything up.

I love how some people do not realize exactly how sarcastic you are being

#9802 75 days ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

That rug was the thing that pushed me to buy in, believe it or not... and now they're sending them to the non EA buyers?? That's not right... surely... they should be keeping the rugs to send with the EA games when they get made... if I get nothing out of this, at least I want my rug!!!

EA games will never be made. Agreed they should send us all our rug and EA plate with our number on it as a last big Fuck you to us EA's

#9854 74 days ago

10 deep by 3 wide it what it looks like. So 30 games in the first load?

#10024 71 days ago
Quoted from bladerunner:

Sorry everyone but this drama is so complicated that I am confused. Has any "new batch" game been sent out yet? And is it true from what I can gahter that the cabinet... are completely diffrent?

There is no "New batch game" Nothing has been made for several years except for a prototype in china that was a converted original. No new games will ever be made.

#10026 70 days ago
Quoted from bladerunner:

So these new 40 games are the same than the old ones? I thought the cabinet was different like a Williams? So confusing.

they have been sitting for 4 years. DP never paid for them so the factory never released them, THen the factory sued DP and won the right to sell them to make back part of what they are owed.

#10129 65 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

These are being air shipped and don’t think there is an app for tracking things through customs, so not much to track here until they show up. But a three days once they actually ship is probably be a good estimate.

Other thread people have tracking. Tuesday to Thursday of next week are what people are posting.

#10141 64 days ago

Kaneda is posting pics of an unboxing in New Jersey today. No EA plaque was there, Rug was included.

#10188 62 days ago
Quoted from seenev:

CT told customers they had to pay another $4000 or not get the game. Imagine ordering something from Amazon, not getting it for three years, then being told it would cost 50% more or they would cancel your order.

The problem is they did not say you had to bay another $4000. You had to pay another $12,500 on top of the $8500 or 9500 you already paid DP. 150% more. And EA's were not even given that chance.

#10270 57 days ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Lets say this though. If DP had to sell the "parts machines" at a premium ($15K+) which appear to exist to generate enough money to continue to manufacture enough machines to allow EA's their pins at regular price or refunds, wouldn't that be better than nothing?
And I'm curious how many EAs actually paid full price vs a the minimum down vs who already got refunds. I'm sure somebody has calculated the actual number right?
Either way, sounds like its really up to DP to reach out and make that deal. And from the previous post, it sounds like he want to stay in business rather than bail out

About 150 EA's are paid in full and gotten nothing. License was for 300 games. 90 made and sold. 150 owed to people paid in full. That only leaves 60 left to sell for profit. Cant make enough off the 60 to fulfill the 150 owed.

#10275 57 days ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Check out this thread - Clearly people got refunds.
So how many didn't and how much did they pay is the real question?

And then we all paid it back. Phil refunded everyone before he left. Currently ea's are paid up to about #197. only 50 of them got games leaving 147 EA's fucked. I rounded up to 150. Not counting any of the people with just a deposit as they are not EA's

#10276 57 days ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

And then we all paid it back. Phil refunded everyone before he left. Currently ea's are paid up to about #197. only 50 of them got games leaving 147 EA's fucked. I rounded up to 150. Not counting any of the people with just a deposit as they are not EA's

EA's early paid 8500, later ones paid $9500

#10286 57 days ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Ok, then sounds like you don't have a case here - you got a machine.
So looking for anybody who paid something and didn't get back a machine or refund from DP?

Since you have not been around since the begining. about 147 people paid either 8500 or 9500 and got Nothing except maybe a shirt.

#10291 57 days ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Again, where’s your proof. I believe some but no where near 147. I’m curious what the actual count is instead of rumors.
I’m guessing anybody short money and a machine check this thread often so we should see them lining up. I’d like to see them line up and settle up with DP so this machine can be sold free of issues

Why do you demand proof? You are not an EA or have any skin in the game. Why dont you read the previous 205 pages and see that each EA was given a EA number. At last count 197. Only 50 got games. Only 2 or 3 got real refunds. They had to sue or pressure DP until they caved. There were no deposits for EA's. EA's all paid in full either 8500 or 9500. If you do not like my numbers read through this entire thread yourself. I guess I will only post on the private EA thread from now on since people that know nothing keep demanding things along with putting them on my ignore list.

#10365 51 days ago
Quoted from underlord:

Anyone know if they were an EA or are they ‘new money’? Cuz that would totally suck.

New money

1 week later
#10670 38 days ago

If Barry truly has an investor now. Why not make all the EA games now and make them whole. Prove to the pinball community that he is a man of his word, Then start selling more games at a profit. Or is the investor not real?

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