(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)

By Nilroc

5 years ago

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  • Latest reply 5 hours ago by Tuna_Delight
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27 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #2465 Tips on removing the upper playfield Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2474 Photo of the updated divertor Posted by sd_tom (3 years ago)

Post #2477 Photos of new tilt graphics side art for TBL Posted by jGraffix (3 years ago)

Post #2506 Factory visit update! Posted by rubberducks (3 years ago)

Post #2926 DP's response to their issue with ARA and game manufacturing. Posted by JimB (3 years ago)

Post #2971 pinghetto contacts ARA for information regarding the delays Posted by pinghetto (3 years ago)

Post #2973 pinghetto information regarding contacting ARA Posted by pinghetto (3 years ago)

Post #3056 ARA's email response about DP's claims. Posted by CrazyLevi (3 years ago)

Post #3483 Jaap from Dutch Pinball counters the ARA story. Posted by Rarehero (3 years ago)

Post #3491 ARA counters the Jaap counter to ARA's previous communication! Posted by Rarehero (3 years ago)

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#370 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Wow when did you order?


1 month later
#463 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

BoP was my first ever pin, and I was kind of against the idea of changing it because I'm kind of attached to the gameplay as it is... both for nostalgic reasons and also I just think it's a cool game... but after seeing that video... I feel strange... my emotions are changing, I'm starting to think I want it... what's happening!!?? That looks f**ing awesome!!!!!

As I understand it you can easily boot into BOP 1.0 mode and still play the original, so you're not sacrificing anything by adding this mod (other than the $2,000 purchase price, of course).

1 month later
#497 4 years ago
Quoted from TKDalumni:

How does the rug interact with the game?

Mostly friction.

#506 4 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

I heard that 2 new TBL's will be there, Production models, not prototypes.

That would be excellent!

#513 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yeah not that the plaque is really at all important, but it is actually nice looking. Most others phone that part in. Just need to get it in my house now.. Starting to think about the fact that I'm going to be out of the country for a week in late October and its possible that could turn into a problem for receiving my game (Murphy's law factor). Oh well, would work it out.. Just hoping getting iy by Thanksgiving holiday week at the latest.

It would be super impressive if these are actually arriving States-side by the end of October given that they aren't even on the line yet in Holland! That said, I hope they start cranking them out ASAP, can't wait to see one in action.

3 weeks later
#613 4 years ago
Quoted from karl:

What! None of the original songs. Only covers? Or did I misunderstand that last one??? (I surely hope so)

This definitely sucks (and makes you wonder how Rodger feels about that graphic of his face with the checkmarks). I wonder if they could at least program in some kind of pinbrowser functionality so users could readily replace music with selections of their own choosing.

#620 4 years ago

If no original music is for real that's also a major switcheroo -- hope they'll provide another chance for pre-order folks to bail if they don't like the sound of the CCR and Dylan covers.

Maybe they should just license that weird chanting/grunting music that's playing during Maude's aerial painting scene and have that play throughout ... That track should be affordable at least!

#622 4 years ago
Quoted from accidental:

I understand why this restriction is in place. The songs were licensed to the film and the film is being licensed to the pinball, not the songs that feature in it. To be able to use the individual songs would mean separate agreements with all the artists of the songs featured in the film. An impossible task IMO.

I don't really get this restriction. I would have thought that if you're making a game based on a movie and you want to use music that appeared in the movie (other than a theme song or other original compositions that are presumably owned by the same people that own the rights to the movie) you'd have to reach a separate deal with the rights-holders for the music. I also thought DP said early on that they had all the music licensing worked out. Will be interesting to see if more detail is forthcoming on this change.

#721 4 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

Making a pinball machine is hard, any questions now?

Since you ask, I've still got a question ... how the hell was DP confused about the music licensing this late in the game? Or if DP knew about it before this weekend, how can they justify resting on their previous incorrect statements about the music licensing (including that at-best misleading picture of Rodger Sharpe) until now? Given their past "troubles" with licensing, why weren't they on top of this?

The game looks sweet, the latest updates are cool, and I can't wait to play one. And you're right, making pinball is hard. Pinball licensing is evidently hard too. But if you're doing it right, you shouldn't repeatedly leave your customers wondering whether you're being honest with them.

2 weeks later
#777 4 years ago

They can always add songs later in code updates. The quality of the songs doesn't matter so much but they have to be there in the first place to be replaced by the owners later!

It'd also be sweet if you can tell which soundtrack song each of the instrumental replacements is meant to "represent" to make the swapping easier, and have it still feel like the game was coded with those original tunes in mind.

1 week later
#807 4 years ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Why don't we just call this game what it is.......Magic Girl 2.

Robin returned the thumbs-down feature just in time!

1 week later
#821 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Enjoy...I'm Out!

Are you selling your spot? May not still be the case but in recent months there have been a number of people eager to get in on the closed pre-order, so it might be worth asking around.

#877 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yep. Earlier they talked about filling about 40 per container and shipping them over for distribution. They're using a contract manufacturer in the Netherlands (where all the pics are coming from presumably). It will be interesting to see how fast these things come off the line when going.. Would hope fast as these are professional manufacturers on contract so they want to get them out as fast as possible (likely fixed cost per unit given to them from dutch pinball )... So time is money lost out of the CMs pocket (speculation, but usually how things work). Also puts incentive that they force DP to have all their ducks in a line before getting started with inventories as the CM won't want to stop in the middle with people standing around doing nothing if there's a shortage.

You'd hope so, but CGC using Stern as the contract manufacturer for MMR hasn't caused them to move particularly quickly.

#894 4 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

But if they refund through papal the fee is refunded too.

Maybe there's a time limit on that? Not sure I've never tried refunding a super-old PayPal payment.

1 week later
#921 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Part of me wonders if this business about the scenes and the music is a miscommunication - the Dutch guys have been confused by the nature of U.S. licensing lingo before - perhaps they're confused about what the licensor is/isn't allowing about is just playing it safe. I'm just thinking about other games that use video clips or audio from movies...Spidey, TF, Iron Man, BDK, WOZ, Hobbit - they always scrub the existing BG music out - but they're allowed to use clips & voices.

Hopefully they'll look into this, would be a shame to strip out those bowling alley scenes (among many others) unnecessarily.

I also wonder if the video clips could be made user-replaceable like the sounds. Could allow for custom work-arounds if they really aren't able to do much with clips from the film in the official release.

#941 4 years ago
Quoted from embryonjohn:

Couldn't wait, so I had to get my dude on for Halloween

You took the Pomeranian bowling?!?

2 months later
#1070 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Whats the rumor about the Lawlor pin?

Seriously, don't leave us in suspense here!

3 months later
#1652 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Far out !! I spy :
- 12 cabinets on their feet (including what might be a finished game in the back)
- 5 in boxes
- 5 cabinets on their backs
Which is roughly a full container worth. Definitely helps to solidify my decision to go via boat.. wont be too long now I hope!

All well and good, but where's the bank of microwaves? Can't be a real pinball maker without one.

1 month later
#1877 4 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Jeff Bridges says he's all in for starring in a "Big Lebowski" sequel: "It's a great idea"

I love his concept of a "Little Lebowski" sequel. The kid would be 18 this year, perfect timing for a road trip with dad. Somehow I cannot see the Cohen Bros. signing off on it, but who knows?

#1879 4 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

While I love the idea of another Lebowski movie some things are just better left untouched and this is probably one of them.

Agree 100%. I don't think a sequel should (or will) happen. But I do think that's a hilarious response for Jeff Bridges to give to that question!

#1924 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

David Huddleston died today (the goldbricker Lebowski)

Sorry to hear that.

On a lighter note, I heard Dom Irrera today on the local comedy station doing a bit about his role as Tony the limo driver in Big Lebowski -- "I got a rash so bad on my ass, I can't even sit down. But you know me. I can't complain". Anyway, he says that entire bit was pulled from his standup act (him talking about his Italian uncles), which the Cohen brothers had evidently heard and enjoyed enough that they wrote it right into the script and then offered him the part. Funny stuff!

4 weeks later
#2136 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Don't! I just stuffed myself at my favorite Vietnamese restaurant. Gonna take a nap now.

TVP for the win!

#2138 3 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Gotta consume like the Dude man!

Do we ever actually see the Dude eating at In-and-Out? Maybe they were just picking up a sack of burgers for Walter. I kind of imagine the Dude being veggie/vegan.

Booze on the other hand ...

#2173 3 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

JJP's top game is too expensive too!
Look, I'm not being down on Dutch Pinball, or the game. I'm just saying, if you want one you might want to get it soon, I can't see these being made for years. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, who cares. But if I'm right and you were sitting on the sidelines ... that's all I'm getting at.
Remember, WOZ, which managed to get JJP in the door, was what? $6500 if you pre-ordered? I don't know what would have happened if they came out the game with WOZ at $10k.

Well to be fair Lebowski was $8500 preordered, right (a bit more if you count shipping, but I'm assuming the $6500 WOZ preorder wasn't shipped)?

I'm not saying $8.5k (or $10k) for a single game makes sense to most people, but then again a few years ago would you have predicted the level of sales in the Premium/LE class at ~$7k? It's all insane money to anyone outside the pinball world, and to many inside it for that matter! That said the flow of beautiful new games is awesome, so I hope people keep buying them all for a long long time.

2 weeks later
#2346 3 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Interactive lighting for Folgers can topper. 100% electronic, wave of the future

I still jerk off manually

4 months later
#3275 3 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

Thanks. That's the problem though, I'm not currently on the owners list. So just trying to figure out how I can get the latest code.

Have you emailed that address and asked to be added to the owners list? They could presumably also send you whatever version of the software you want.

#3331 3 years ago

Why do people keep referring to a "white lie" here? If your girlfriend asks you if she looks fat in her college jeans and you say "no" to make her feel good, that's a white lie. This seems ... different.

#3398 3 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

Dude, I'm just merely pointing out you can't spell licensed correctly.

Epic burn on Rarehero.

#3401 3 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Epic burn on Rarehero.

For the record, Rarehero, I did not actually think that eggbert52's veiled reference to your typo was an epic burn. My sarcasm appears to have slipped by the goalie.

2 weeks later
#3608 3 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

Yes, but my defense of being called a paraquate was second to none!

Don't leave us hanging ... did you order Aurich's glowing joint mod?

1 week later
#3693 3 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Talk about feeling fucked in the [censored]...

Your censorship policy seems inCONsistent.

#3824 3 years ago
Quoted from Khabbi:

Did anyone else get this email blast? Got it about 30 minutes ago...

Yep - Rensh posted it above.

#3878 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I don't know man. I'm still soluting every morning I wake up.
I suppose if I was ever to break down and marry an ugly woman, I can see the purpose of these little blue pills. But that isn't my plan.

Psst ... I think your line was "Yeah well, I still jerk off manually"

#4030 3 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

Oh, wait, this is Denmark, not the US. What have the Danish attorneys suggested?

Quoted from Nilroc:

Why has Denmark been brought into this?

Shh, I'm with Sadsack, let's hear from the Danish lawyers!

#4204 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Oh you haven't, however no sense in arguing you would be surprised what people sign when they have to or shall we say want to

So what you're saying is, you'll make DP an offer they can't refuse?

#4207 3 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

Think about that statement.....has anyone ever known a lawyer to advise against litigating and telling someone to wait? Sounds more like a stall tactic. I am betting if you dig into this really deep, you will find DP is not the victim they play.

You've obviously never met a Danish lawyer.

#4215 3 years ago
#4280 3 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

For those of you saying the profits from BOP 3.0 aren't enough to get the rest of the TBL made, what makes you think so? 25 BOP, $12,500 per machine = $312,500.
250 remaining TBL with $1,000 increase = $250,000. Cointaker and DP split the remaining $62,500 and call it a day. Totally feasible.

The infeasible part is selling that many $12.5k BOP3s.

#4411 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

My apologies to those I have raged on in these heated and emotional times...and if all goes well, I will repeatedly and humbly apologize to DP. Sometimes it's really tough to balance hobbyist friendships when there are customer/seller relationships involved.

You were justified in reacting as you did to the way DP handled this mess. However things play out, DP lied to their customers and they can no longer expect the benefit of the doubt, especially when they're not putting forth a clear plan to resolve the underlying problem. DP deserved both barrels and you gave it to them.

That said, I also hope this is a turning point in the DP/ARA relationship, and that the line starts rolling again soon!

3 weeks later
#4603 3 years ago
Quoted from nwpinball:

There is a band up here in the Northwest actually called The Fuc$ing Eagles and they headlined the Big Lebowskifest here a few years ago.

Apparently the Eagles didn't take kindly to that scene. Further evidence that they suck.


#4608 3 years ago
Quoted from Berserk:

I hated the eagles before... after reading that, I REALLY hate them

Yeah, and that quote from Jeff Bridges is fantastic: "but you know, my anus tightened a bit." He truly is the Dude.

2 weeks later
#4750 3 years ago
Quoted from Bearcat:

Fuck it, I'm sending a toe to Nivoge. Anyone know where to get a toe?

You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me. Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon ... with nail polish.

1 week later
#4831 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

It's 2017, the train is off the tracks.

Agree with everything else you're saying, but your train derailment metaphor in a Big Lebowski thread will not stand. Goddamn planes and mountains, on the other hand ...

#4879 3 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

I think you mean, other than you.

Another epic eggbert burn!

Shifting gears, eggbert, shortly after you were going off about the Dutch royalty in this thread I read this:

If you have to have a king, this guy seems alright.

#4929 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

What's the number of your game?
.... Yeah, that's what I thought.

His comments on DP's communications practices are merely a diversion from his main interest in this thread, which is complaining about the Dutch royalty (and monarchies in general). Sic semper tyrannis!

#4960 3 years ago

The Dude looks much more inviting than the MOTE(L) down the block. I'll bet they do good business.

2 weeks later
#5337 3 years ago
Quoted from kapper:

I keep hearing that a lawsuit is expensive - yes true, but (at least in the USA), the winning party of a lawsuit can claim the expenses of said lawsuit as damages

False. Except in special cases the US generally takes a "Dutch date" approach to litigation costs.

It's certainly possible the Netherlands has a "loser pays" rule though, many countries do. But unless its a total slam dunk DP would probably still need to front the money to its lawyers and would get its legal costs back only at the end of litigation. If they've blown all their cash already, that could be tough to pull off.

#5355 3 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Ever hear of the Seattle Seven?

That was me ... and six other guys.

#5364 3 years ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Had any existing TBL changed hands since delivery to the original owner? Does anyone believe that these games listed at 18k-25k are actual market value? At what point does the market correct itself? At the conclusion of the ARA drama? Either there are never going to be any other games built or there will be another 250+\- built and in the market - then what is the price? Best case all buyers get their games for 8500-10k NIB and then what? Prices instantly double? I just don't get the logic of the buyers looking to double their money but the fact that no one is biting proves my point I guess. That said - anyone with a game in hand that wants to sell for for 10k please PM me.

What's not to get? It's very much up in the air whether more TBLs get made. If they don't, then this is a super-limited edition game (with a still-beloved theme). BBB sells for $15k-$20k and there are far more of those than of TBL at the moment, so it's not exactly surprising that TBL owners would be asking in that price range ("double their money" doesn't enter into it, they're asking what they think the market will bear). Of course if the best-case scenario comes to pass and another 250 (or more) are made, prices on used TBL should come down significantly. But that's still a big if.

That said, if you can find a TBL for $10k I'll be the first to congratulate you.

#5423 3 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Two in Seattle just sold within the last week.
25k nib
20k new out of box (pending)
Kind of crazy for a game without a manual

Shh, Dkjimbo's trying to scoop one up for $11k and you're killing his game.

#5489 3 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I think step #1 of the business plan ought to be refund EA's and current buyers 100%. Get them out of the preorder model and go forward with a fresh slate.

That would be ideal, but per some of the comments above it sounds like DP has stated they do not have the money to refund everyone 100%. And it's hard to imagine a lender would be keen on giving them money to pay off preexisting debts, vs. build and ship machines (which would get them to profitability faster, even if the first 150 games go to cover fully-paid preorders).

#5492 3 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I don't know, this sounds eerily familiar to Heighway's attracting investors. New people injecting new capital - and if the plan is based on borrowing enough to refund existing buyers their money, buy parts, setup factory for manufacturing and early production costs, they will have a lot more people and potential customers pulling for them.

Maybe I missed it but did Heighway's new investors promise to refund anyone that asks? I saw they refunded one guy but lots of others are still complaining of radio-silence.

Regardless, if DP can pull this off that's be great. It just seems questionable to me that they'd be able to find new funding, even without budgeting an extra million or two up front to pay off existing debt to the pre-order folks.

#5685 3 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

Too bad the dude himself isn't interested in being an investor. Maybe he could use this as a tax write off?

I think he tapped out his checking account when he bought that half and half.

1 week later
#5773 3 years ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

If this is legit, the $16k TBL just lost some value. I feel real bad for the sucker who supposedly paid 25k - assuming this is going to come to fruition. Too early to tell but at this point buying or selling one is a pretty big gamble...

Buying or selling is relatively risky at this point, since it is far from certain they'll get production rolling again. And of course with a new manufacturer there's always the question of possible changes in quality/specs.

But here's hoping they start making games again. I imagine most current owners would be happy to see people get what they paid for (and see DP survive to provide future support), even if the market value of their games comes back down to ~retail.

2 weeks later
#5889 3 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

nonsense I'm afraid we are in the Europe Union, you'd be amazed what crazy shit happens here!

Let us know when your ARA Lebowski ships.

#5907 3 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Please tell me the Richard "I'm Not A Crook" Nixon picture was an attempt as self-deprecating humor.

Obviously you're not a bowler.

a2385ed283199a55f82c97d0f39c5696--the-big-lebowski-nixon (resized).jpg

#5911 3 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

He discussed financing!! Seems like the new CM isn't interested in completely being the bank. He said that they (new CM) believes that the extra machines ordered by CT and Nitro (there are 200 of these, per Jaap) that have $1000 deposits on them can help pay for the 130 that have been paid for already. The quote was something like "being creative in how we build and ship the 200". Jaap believes DP has enough money in the bank that the profit from the 200 CT/Nitro machines + money in bank, will be enough to make the whole project (all 330 machines) cash flow. I took this to mean that they may be producing some of the 200 and the 130 at the same time in order to make the money work.

Or maybe the 200 CT/Nitro games would ship first (to bring in new revenue), and then the fully-paid games would ship (since they won't bring additional cash flow)? I did not watch the video but the quotes you provide seemingly could go either way. That would be a bummer for existing orders, of course, but similar to what happened with WOZ as I understand it, and perhaps the only way they could get the games made at this point.

#5923 3 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

I know about production issues.
But Did DP polish the code during this time?

Hard to polish the code when you don't have a programmer, as I understand it he left DP some time ago.

Probably worth asking DP to address with specificity their plans for future code updates in the next weekly update (i.e. do they plan to hire a new programmer or hire the original programmer back, if so do they plan to make significant changes/additions to the code or just polish/address bugs, will the new build require any changes to the code, etc.)

1 month later
#6004 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

NSN time:
Dear Rens,
It’s Friday again so… here is your weekly update about the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.
We introduced our friends Cointaker to our new Contract Manufacturer and both organizations were happy to meet each other via Skype. The three of us talked about 1.5 hours about plans and expectations and we concluded that 2018 will be a very good year for our three companies. We will introduce our new Contract Manufacturer to you at Expo in Chicago (from Wednesday, October 11 until Sunday, October 15) where we will do a presentation on Friday at 6PM.
This week we received almost all parts to start producing the 0-series. We are now waiting for the last parts to arrive so we are getting there! We still are on schedule that the first ‘new’ TBL will be ready in October. We still are on track to deliver the first ‘new’ TBLs before the end of this year.
Next week we will be back with another update.
Have a nice weekend!
Kind regards,
Barry & Jaap

Doesn't sound like the timing would necessarily align, but wouldn't it be great for DP if they could have one of the "0-series" games at Expo this year, just to show that they're getting back on their feet and are capable of making machines again?

1 week later
#6017 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Early birthday present:

Nice one! Hadn't seen that before.

amazon.com link »

Evidently the same car was used in an X-Files episode (don't you love the internet?):

#6019 2 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Did you buy your wife a LAPIN plate yet?

LAPIN (resized).jpg

#6022 2 years ago

The plot thickens. So in the end was The Big Lebowski actually the castrated male rabbit? ("That and a pair of testicles" as the Dude would say).

And more pressingly, who is castrating these rabbits?

#6028 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It will be a feather in their now rather depleted cap if they really can finish the engineering samples and deliver the first new machines in December, given how things looked earlier in the summer.

I'll say. We'll be verging on a Christmas miracle if they're shipping games in December. I hope for everyone's sake that it comes to pass.

1 week later
#6035 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

We also received the confirmation that our new contract manufacturer will join us at Expo in Chicago. We will introduce them at our presentation on Friday, 6 PM so you will have a chance to meet him and ask all questions that you have.

That seems like a positive development. Hopefully he's got good answers to the many questions the achievers must have at this point.

1 week later
#6045 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

If that's true, then DP is doing things bass ackwards. First and foremost they should have a few final TBL's at Expo. Because people want to lay their eyes and hands on one. And having two games is better than one for many reasons. We want to be assured the game can handle being played endlessly while continuing to work flawlessly. Without TBL's at Expo, Jaap could skype in remotely and be projectd on the screen in the seminar room, thus saving the airfare and hotel expenses. But if DP brought some TBL's, people could judge for themselves. Dutch Pinball, why can't we see the final TBL?

Sure, but it sounds like the games haven't been made yet. So there's nothing new to show.

2 weeks later
#6119 2 years ago
Quoted from jsa:

From a business perspective, I understand taking orders to create some cash flow if you have a model that can take you to breakeven with a certain number of sales. However, the idea that it makes any difference to handle the queue out of order doesn't make any logical sense to me. So I understand the literal words "new orders will have to be built before old," but the logic escapes me.

The logic is that no one is cutting checks to DP anymore to get at the back of a line — everyone has seen how that’s gone for the Early Achievers. The “new orders” they’re taking will require them to actually ship the games before they get paid. Their plan is to use money from those new sales to build the EA machines they owe.

This is, as I understand it, what JJP did with WOZ when things were looking grim for them. Not ideal and not fair, but if it works out, at least everyone will end up getting a game in the end.

#6135 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

You do realize that there are roughly 150 people in front of you? Given that they make an estimated 1k clear per machine (could be more if they would stop traveling all over the world telling everyone how great they are doing), they need to sell 1.5 million dollars worth of Lebowskis' before your even considered. And your worried about delivery charges?

Tough but fair.

#6141 2 years ago
Quoted from Drewscruis:

Double penetration.... kinda like how the people that got in on this in the beginning and are getting it 2x now with new customer's getting their machines first.

Perhaps your thinking of “Dutch Door Action,” as popularized in Wayne’s World.

1 week later
#6349 2 years ago
Quoted from taz:

Definitely! I own both games and regardless of different code numbering methodologies (.48 versus .75ish), TBL seems more than twice as developed as BM66 at this time. I’m pretty sure that all inserts work and there are many modes and multiballs. The biggest thing I’m still holding out hope for at this point is addition of some Knox Harrington, the video artist action. Hopefully, DP will figure away to squeeze him in to laugh during some mini mode.

A Knox Harrington video mode would be kind of awesome.

#6355 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Knox giggling uncontrollably when you drain to quickly.

Do it three times in a row and you get the "Friend With the Cleft Asshole" consolation multiball?

#6373 2 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

It is not cheaper to build in China?
I was on the fence to buy one if price were in relation with the market but if it is 10k€ I am out for sure.

No idea, but Euro price might be different than USD price?

3 months later
#6705 2 years ago

Easy now fellas, he's just trying to drum up a bit of panic and drive down prices so he can scoop a Lebowski up on the cheap. Evidently it didn't work the last time he tried this in this thread (about eight months ago if I remember right), but give him have another crack at it and I'm sure he'll convince someone to sell him one of these worthless, unplayable prototypes for $8k.

#6713 2 years ago

dkjimbo, you’re fighting with a straw man. No one said that OG Lebowski will still fetch $15k+ if/when DP gets it together and starts shipping machines again. But that still hasn’t happened and there’s no guarantee that it will. Anyone buying or selling a Lebowski now is well aware that DP hopes to make more of them, and might pull it off. The sales prices you are seeing reflect the uncertainties.

You obviously view the chance of significant numbers of new machines actually getting made (of equal or better quality than the first run) as pretty good, so you wouldn’t pay going rate for an existing Lebowski. That’s cool, but you also seem surprised that no one will sell to you at $11k. That’s just not where the market’s at right now.

1 month later
#6955 2 years ago
Quoted from Snoogans138:

I’d sent an email to DP last week just to see what they had to say about trying to get one in Australia and I got this back.
“Hello Simon,
We expect to start selling The Big Lebowski Pinball machines in a few months. We first need to ramp up the production.
We will keep you informed via our website, Newsletter and facebook page so please keep following us!
Kind regards,
Jaap Nauta”
So I mean, I’m not holding my breath based on everything that’s happened, but that’s better than the “we don’t have a distributor there” or “orders are no longer available” or anything along those lines that I was expecting to hear.

Just wait until they’re ready to ship you a game immediately before you turn a penny over - history of this game shows that to do otherwise would be nuts.

2 weeks later
#6967 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Can anyone confirm the investment rumor?

Quoted from Mr68:

It's an important question as I have learned to not trust Pinside at all in situations like this. And DP needs to make an announcement to restore faith if it's true.

And even if there's an announcement from DP, people need to continue to protect themselves as best they can until there is concrete evidence that things at DP have stabilized (i.e. games are shipping at a steady and predictable rate to old and new money folks alike). It's tempting to believe that people who love your hobby just as much as you do could never mislead you, or would be incapable of fooling themselves. But at this point, "trust but verify" has to be the rule when dealing with any boutique pinball manufacturer. Or maybe just "verify, verify, verify."

#6978 2 years ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

Only on pinside can the demise of one pinball company be considered an issue for the overall business health of another. Heighway’s failure was due to a completely separate set of issues. I don’t see the guys at DP living high off the hog and starting a boat company.

“No money to make the games” is the real problem, and the why of it is a secondary concern - people just want their games. DP’s not in bankruptcy so it’s still possible they’ll pull something off, but how could anyone believe it until they’re shipping games in steady numbers?

1 week later
#7030 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Is it even legal, of course given the jurisdiction, to sell a product to a new customer when there are 150 people waiting for theirs and have prepaid for the exact same product they will be producing and selling? I would love to ask a lawyer who specializes in this arena. For some reason it goes against by better judgement and I would think the line is getting crossed somewhere.

Are you asking if it's "legal" for DP to still be taking orders? Or do you mean if/when DP gets around to shipping out Lebowski 2.0, could original preorder customers sue them for shipping "out of order" based on when payment was made? I don't see why DP couldn't continue to take new orders, so long as they still believe they've actually got a chance of making games and fulfilling those orders some day. As for the original preorder customers, they could sue right now for breach of contract, since they paid for a pinball machine and one was not shipped within a reasonable period of time, no need to wait for DP to start shipping games "out of order."

But like you say, if you really want to know you'd have to ask a lawyer that specializes in this stuff.

#7038 2 years ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

I really hope many of you are ready to eat crow. While many of you have been trash talking, DP has been learning the art of pinball.

Hopefully that encompasses the art of shipping pinball.

1 week later
#7097 2 years ago
Quoted from jpk1972:

I just contacted XYTECH through their main contact page for any updates on their end. I am skeptical whether I will get a response, but in the event I do I will post it here immediately.

It would be surprising if XYTECH answers (other than to put you back in contact with DP), part of the benefit of being a contract manufacturer is not having to deal with end-users directly.

Quoted from Rick432:

Options for collective action for those who have lost money with DP directly?

You could try small claims court. Dollar limit ranges from $2.5k-$15k depending on the state, and it should be a straightforward argument that they broke the contract, but you'll have to convince the court that it's legally proper to sue a Dutch company in whatever state you file your case, as opposed to in Dutch court. Or hire a lawyer, who can figure out if you can sue DP in the US, and whether you can bundle a bunch of claims together to spread the cost. You might reach out to mr68, I believe he helped coordinate the group that just got a judgment against JPop and might have some thoughts on how to get started.

None of this guarantees that DP will actually pay a judgment against it, of course.

#7103 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Well, that's how we finally got answers about the PCB-delay lie...a few of us started to email ARA - and we got responses that were different than the DP story.
Since DP has gone silent, it's the right of anyone with money in on this project to contact Xytech and/or Unviersal Studios licensing division to get information.

Sure thing, it's the buyers right to take whatever steps they can to be informed and protect their money. Just seems unlikely that XYTECH's going to talk -- ARA situation was somewhat different in that DP was blaming them for delays, and they'd seemingly had a complete breakdown in the relationship by that point. But it cannot hurt to ask.

#7114 2 years ago
Quoted from MPRAMONE:

"capable of doing" : like what ? an offer they can't refuse ?
"This aggression will not stand"-the Dude

I don't think anyone is under the impression that Universal will, or should, threaten DP with physical violence.

Presumably the idea is you talk to Universal and hope that they will call DP and threaten to pull the license or take other punitive steps under the licensing agreement if things don't get straightened out. Then, DP hopefully responds positively to the pressure and games start shipping (or at the least, information starts flowing again). Or, DP continues to give their customers the silent treatment, the license gets pulled, and at least everyone knows where they stand and can proceed with their lawsuits, official period of mourning, etc.

#7359 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Maybe ARA is suing DP just to close the books and write it off as a loss?

#7512 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

From Wikipedia: "Deus ex machina (Latin) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and seemingly unlikely occurrence, typically to the point of being perceived as a contrived plot point. Its function can be to resolve an otherwise irresolvable plot situation, to surprise the audience, to bring the tale to a happy ending, or act as a comedic device".
I had to look it up and thought I'd share. (Well done RT)

Speaking of, did anyone else see Ex Machina? Incredible movie, well worth the two hours.

1 week later
#7670 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

It also applies in the US and Netherlands.

In the US, each side generally pays their own way in litigation regardless of who wins.

I understand that most European countries follow the "British Rule" where the loser pays for both sides' legal costs.

2 weeks later
#7745 2 years ago

ballypinball, are you talking about rarehero getting a refund like a year ago by threatening to contact Universal (in which case that has little bearing on today’s situation and seems an awful lot like you’re just stirring up shit)? Or do you have specific knowledge of people getting actual refunds since DP’s “whoops, the party’s over” email last month? If so that’d be huge, even if it doesn’t make much sense since it’s not clear where the money for refunds would be coming from.

#7764 2 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

No I mean there has been more current refunds

Can people with skin in the game PM you for contact details on the people you know of that got recent refunds? They should be able to share more precisely how they got their money back, which would be very useful to others in the same situation.

#7815 2 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Wow... Didn't see this one coming... Now a Kickstarter too? Maybe TBL will come with a rug and a Stern coffee table book..?

The Seattle Seven. That was EternalLife ... and six other guys.

Quoted from EternalLife:

That being said, we're forming the "Seattle Seven". We are EA's brainstorming ways to end ARA involvement in TBL and restart the line.

2 weeks later
#7864 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

I won’t go into details on how I got a refund (it wasn’t voluntary), but I accomplished it without directly contacting Universal.

Why not?!? You’ve got your refund (and congratulations on that, must be a huge relief), now share what you know and give others a shot.

Quoted from Ballypinball:

This is one of many refunds i know about, did you read this proof Rosh ?

Are you finally ready to share any actionable details on how your acquaintances are wrangling refunds? People were questioning your veracity because you provided nothing concrete to back up your statements. If you have information that could help people recover funds, for God’s sake out with it already. Maybe it’ll do some good and at least a few more people might get some money back before the Titanic goes down here.

#7865 2 years ago


#7873 2 years ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

DP might want to release a NSNL and start moving forward on building pinballs. This could get ugly fast.

DP might want to start building pinballs, but as they've told us they're out of cash, so they cannot.

#7925 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

The Go Fund Me program isn't going that great. Only 4 of the Seattle Seven have donated!

The other three will probably pay by check. What do you get for a $0.69 donation?

Ralphs (resized).jpg

#7978 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Probably because he's claimed other 'facts', possibly with the agenda of hoping to score the ARA TBLs.

Any day now he’ll be back with those details on how his aquaintences are scoring refunds

If it’s true and he actually knows something that could be of use to people that are out thousands of dollars here, it’s shameful that he has time to pop into the thread but cannot be bothered to share the necessary details. What gives?

#8087 2 years ago
Quoted from cyclone1234:

I had many conversations with high def , i know the way he approached this and hence most likely got a refund , he is a very smart person , i wouldn't even no how to begin and he told me what he did , i was hoping he would let me know but it might be a condition of his refund to go silent , waiting for him to pm me but have not heard from him .....

If so, he had a hell of a time going silent - not, apparently, out of a desire to help his fellow pinhead, but out of a need to illustrate what a dildo the K-man is. Which we all knew already without a seven paragraph post that brought nothing new to the table other than a general statement that he got his money back and wouldn’t be sharing his methods with the rest of the community.

1 month later
#8354 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Every time I read this thread, I think to myself better you guys than me ‍♂️

Isn't there a Hurricane Florence thread you should be posting in?

1 month later
#8410 1 year ago
Quoted from Deadpin:

Something every dude needs! Although still only in pre-order....

Thanks for posting! This went right on my Christmas list.

Lebowski Box

Shipping now from Amazon:
amazon.com link »

#8412 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

Interesting,they dropped the $ in the Title font which I believe was added at the 10th anniversary and is included in the pinball.

Glad they did, I never liked the $ change. Seems like the fonts should be baked in for a 20 year old movie.

1 month later
#8531 1 year ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Probably not, most licenses have time limits.

I would guess that licenses with seasoned players like Universal are also non-transferable (without the licensor’s permission). What you’d probably need to do is buy the design, software, etc. from DP and then get Universal to separately sell you the license to make more.

#8533 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

This is the least of anyone's worries and easily overcome a if a real pinball company or investor swooped in and purchased the DP assets. Roger Sharpe has intervened and "Ball Saved" this license at least once, if not twice, on DP's behalf.

There’s definitely potential there, and if DP goes into bankruptcy maybe you can scoop up their part of the rights for cheap at an auction. The rest just depends on if Universal is still willing to play or if they don’t want their property associated with this mess for the peanuts that a pinball license brings in. I’m sure they’ve seen it all though, and they do like money.

1 month later
#8578 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Good grief, another wannabe Pinside lawyer. Tell us where you got your law degree counselor. Was it from television or a bar stool?

dkjimbo's legal analysis definitely smells like "stool" of some variety ...

Quoted from flynnibus:

If you want a slam dunk on paper.. look at Skit-B... that should be a slam dunk, yet that is domestic (vs international) and even that didn't get anyone off the pot to file fraud charges.

Good point. And before dkjimbo pulls a hamstring kicking the buyers while they're down, let's remember that at least in the States only the prosecutor has the power to file fraud charges.

1 week later
#8608 1 year ago

Is Jeff Bridges hurting for money? I was surprised to see him and Harrison Ford slumming it in Super Bowl ads.

I guess he’s gotta feed the monkey.

1 month later
#8633 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Kaneda says suit is settled and 70 games will ship within 30 days

Quoted from foxtj24:

I think it is an Early April fools joke. Did anyone else listen to the whole thing?


#8693 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

If I sell you a promise of building you a house... and we go into a dispute.. you don't freeze the toilet I bought and still have sitting on my warehouse shelves. I just owe you a toilet or some agreed upon equivalent if I lost.

Unless Universal also granted ARA the right to sell Lebowski branded pinball games, this toilet analogy is a turd.

#8698 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Ability to sell the game is a different angle entirely... but not really relevant to the point contested (that the assets are locked up in the court case). ARA sued DP for monies owed and probably breach of contract terms. Things that not contingent on what assets ARA has or not. ARA's benches, tools, and everything else used to make the games aren't going to be frozen over a dispute to get paid for their work. For the assets to be locked up, DP would have had to make some claims that they're rightfully theirs. Which we know they just tried to walk away from...

Ah, so you are literally talking about selling toilets now. Makes perfect sense of course. I mistakenly thought we were talking about Big Lebowski pinball machines and whether they might conceivably be leaving ARAs shipping dock. I must have wandered into the middle of the wrong thread.

3 weeks later
#8746 1 year ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

The large number of early investors with a sizable claim added to the proceedings would matter a lot. Go back and read this entire thread, the case is there.

How would money owed by DP to the Early Achievers impact a lawsuit between DP and ARA? Just so it's clear, this isn't a bankruptcy case yet, it's a contract dispute between the manufacturer (ARA) and the client (DP).

#8751 1 year ago

Huh? You’re claiming that the court is going to make DP destroy the existing games if it wins? Are you just making all of this up as you go?

Also, “funding Agents for development” isn’t a thing. The EAs are plain old customers that got stiffed.

#8758 1 year ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Read it again. My career was in Contract Manufacturing.
DP holds rights to Art? Can't pay to finish games? ARA can't sell finished games.
ARA wins rights to Art? They can sell finished games and produce more.
As far as EA claims? The squeaky wheel gets the grease. ALL legitimate claims must be considered in a legal proceeding. They have a legitimate claim. A large amount of "plain old customers" that get stiffed is a class-action.
Right now they are faceless, nameless entities to the Judge. Probably too late at this point.

I respect your career experience, but your legal analysis doesn't make any more sense on a second reading. When you say that "ALL legitimate claims must be considered in a legal proceeding" are you still talking about this contract case between ARA and DP? The problem is that the EAs probably don't have a "legitimate" claim to make in that context. In what world does the judge consider all of the collateral effects of a ruling on a contract claim, instead of just deciding what the words in the contract means and then deciding whether the parties (ARA and DP) did what they promised to do when they signed it? On Judge Judy maybe, but I doubt in the Netherlands. It would be pretty screwy if the judge said "DP, if I just looked at the contract you'd win, but because you're out of cash you're unlikely to make more games. So I'm going to give ARA the win even though they're the ones that broke the contract. Oh, and while I'm at it I'm also going to award APA your IP rights in the game."

Or do you really mean that the EAs should file their own lawsuit against DP to recover their lost payments? This would be logical enough, and there's even a thread discussing it. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/class-action-lawsuit
In the context of their own lawsuit the EAs' claims would be "legitimate." Likewise if DP went into bankruptcy. Just not in this contract case between ARA and DP.

1 month later
#8805 1 year ago
Quoted from Hoss_Coog:

An update from Barry and Jaap would be appreciated.

Where were things at the time of the last update? DP is broke, and the only chance of them making more TBLs is if they win the lawsuit and then get the Chinese manufacturer to produce games for them on credit. We know the lawsuit hasn't resolved yet, so I doubt there's much for DP to report.

2 weeks later
#8866 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

Nope, or I don’t think so. Some pre orders only required a 1000$ downpayment and that’s one of them.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Many people just had a deposit of 1k with cointaker

Aren’t those $1k cointaker deposits fully refundable to this day? Why sell a spot at face value when you could just refund it for the same amount with less hassle? Only way the transaction makes sense is if people are selling fully paid (and nonrefundable due to insolvency) EA spots at a deep discount.

#8875 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

they are refundable.. but this would be a way to get inline... for a line that is no longer open. Hence why it's kinda low risk... as it's just cointaker

Rereading the original post, it’s clear what he was talking about, I guess a number of us (including me) didn’t reread it so we got half a dozen posts about Cointaker downpayments.

Quoted from Lamberger:

I'm still willing to pay $1000 U.S for a spot that someone payed in full for, under unit #80 of course.. 40 out, 40 waiting I think... A billion to one chance, but hey..I don't mind giving $1000 back to someone that lost $8500. plus tax. That sucks the big one.

#8879 1 year ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

I'm still willing to pay $1000 U.S for a spot that someone payed in full for, under unit #80 of course.. 40 out, 40 waiting I think... A billion to one chance, but hey..I don't mind giving $1000 back to someone that lost $8500. plus tax. That sucks the big one.

It's likely throwing money away, but I've been known gamble now and then so what the hell -- I'll do the same as Lamberger if anyone else wants to sell their spot.

#8890 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

It's likely throwing money away, but I've been known gamble now and then so what the hell -- I'll do the same as Lamberger if anyone else wants to sell their spot.

My inbox has not been flooded with EAs looking to take me up on this, so market rate to buy a paid spot at no. 40-80 would appear to be > $1k despite the one recent transaction.

#8897 1 year ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Why not different twist on this “EA buyout program” instead of $1000+ for a spot, how about $500 cash now buys first right of refusal on the spot at the original $8500 full price cost. If the games actually come out, the buyer can decide to pay the original EA the additional $8000 and get the game or pass and lose the $500 and the EA gets their game. By taking the non-refundable $500 the EA gives up the right to take the game but would get their full investment back. Essentially just selling the game for face value...

If you are actually offering this, it's definitely a much better deal for the EAs, and I wouldn't be surprised if you got a taker.

#8903 1 year ago
Quoted from TRAMD:

I am not so sure that the deposits at Nitro are refundable as I emailed Tommy 2 weeks ago to get mine back. Then I find out he is involved in some kind of scandal.

I think his current scandal is of the non-financial variety.

#8908 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

I am still shaking my head over Barry and Jaap's decision to go to China for production. That decision (combined with others) would be the pilot episode of
"WTF Were They Thinking?!"

China happened after DP had fallen out with their first production manufacturer and were already out of money, so at least it wasn’t the cause of their troubles.

2 weeks later
#8960 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

...and yeah I'll be the a-hole who says it...after all the lies and BS, I'd want to see proof that Jaap is sick again. For all we know, it's another con to get out of this mess. He's probably on a hydrofoil with Andrew Heighway and Kevin Kulek.

Recurrent cancer is very sad news for Jaap and his family and friends. But I don't see that the EAs should be focused on his health -- the key fact is that DP is out of money and needs to somehow raise a bunch more if it wants to ship the existing games or build new ones. Regardless of whether Barry is telling the truth now about Jaap's diagnosis, no oneis going to trust DP with any more money without a solid guarantee that their game is complete and will ship immediately on payment.

Getting to that point seems daunting. Unless they can convince a new investor to pay off their debts and provide new seed money, DP has to get EAs to accept that the ~40 already-built games are going to be re-sold to new buyers to generate money (and continue waiting patiently rather than suing), get Chinese manufacturing up and running, get a reputable third party (e.g. Cointaker) to act as an escrow agent so new money will actually come in, and generate enough surplus on schedule to pay ARA in line with whatever the settlement says. Here's hoping DP can somehow pull all of this off.

#9012 1 year ago
Quoted from hool10:

The people that want "evidence" or are happy that Jaap is dying of cancer is some of the worst things I have ever seen in pinball or on this forum.

Well luckily there’s only one person who said anything of the sort. So while I agree with you that comment wasn’t necessary or helpful, you can relax — the commentary here has (appropriately) been focused on the pertinent issues.

#9101 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The difference between Alien and TBL is there are some 100-200 Aliens out in the wild, as opposed to the handful of TBLs, so there's simply more scale to the resources.
Alien also has a team of people still around able to offer little bits of assistance where possible. It's probably much more finished code wise too for that matter, but I honestly have no idea what the state of TBL code really is anymore.
Still, it's proof that a lot of things are possible where there's desire and a will to solve problems.

Assuming they sell through these TBLs, there will be 80 or 90 out there, bringing it closer to Alien numbers in terms of a self-supporting community of owners.

I don't know what the state of Alien code is, but from playing TBL a couple of dozen times at TPF, the code felt pretty complete to me. Of course there's no comparison to Alien where the coder is actively engaging with the owners on Pinside. But if I were a buyer I'd be more worried about hardware failures than about the code.

#9127 1 year ago
Quoted from RobF:

So that is 40 machines through CT and an additional amount through Nitro? I thought the total number available was only 40?

Cointaker has confirmed they are getting 40 games:

Quoted from CoinTaker:

The games are confirmed to be at ARA and we are getting a total of 40 games...

So unless Cointaker is supplying games to Nitro, this makes it sound like there are more than 40 sitting in that warehouse. Assuming that DP is being straight with their distributors, of course.

#9129 1 year ago
Quoted from MOMM:

Yes, Nitro will be getting games. Our first priority is to those that still have deposits with us.

Do you have confirmation on how many games Nitro will get?

#9256 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

CT was saying the games would have their EA plates removed (presumably with later information).

Will the plates then be mailed to the EAs as an additional FU from DP?

#9305 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Don’t worry, this thread will be here for you to continue to lick them salty balls. Meanwhile the real club will be an appreciation thread for this great pinball machine you can’t afford. Salty ball lickers not welcome
How’s that taste?

B7C60C29-4299-4D57-9531-332C35529D4B (resized).jpeg
#9413 1 year ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

Wow, missed a lot.. got a message from the original buyer about the recent events, been so busy with the new house.. Is this really happening? kinda feel like a D now..Dam, maybe i should just bail.. think I would feel horrible otherwise.. should I just pay the full $12,500. $16,300 CANADIAN. What do you guys think? Man, thought this was a long shot..was just effing around. lol, $1000 for TBL. My gut hurts.

Bad news, DP/Cointaker are NOT about to ship a game to you. As part of the DP/ARA settlement they've just sold off the machines that were sitting in dry dock at ARA to new buyers. So those will not be going to the EAs (or those such as yourself that bought out EAs). If you and the other EAs are ever going to receive machines, it will require DP to a) start new production (presumably in China), and b) generate enough revenue to cover the cost of sending machines to people that had already pre-paid.

#9423 1 year ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

6500 per machine was a number given to me by a previous DP employee. Stern orders tens of thousands of parts and does not us a proc. That is how stern builds games much much cheaper.

Was that for Chinese manufacturing though? Obviously it's all extremely speculative, but if they got that up and running they'd presumably have some serious savings on labor over the EU.

#9432 1 year ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Preorders didn't get an opportunity to pay more and get them?

Quoted from f3honda4me:

If you pre ordered through CT or Nitro, then yes.

The distinction is this: if you preordered directly through DP then your money was pissed away years ago. If DP sells you a game now at $12,500 but credits you the $8,500 they already took from you, they clear only $4,000. If you preordered with CT or Nitro, on the other hand, the distributor held your money all of this time, so selling to you now brings $12,500 in fresh money into DP (with which to pay off ARA).

If you’re asking whether the DP preorders were given priority to spend a fresh $12,500 and receive a machine, that would have been a thoughtful gesture but I don’t think that’s how it was handled.

#9472 1 year ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

i wonder if all this could fall apart during the inspection.. what if ARA didn't store the games climate controlled for the last 3 years as they were pissed and just moved them to where was convient/didnt cost them even more money. so, its very good they are getting inspected.. but also we'll see i guess too

DP is inspecting them, right? And DP gets out of the ARA lawsuit by selling these machines, not by determining that they are unsalable.

#9499 1 year ago
Quoted from VividPsychosis:

EA’s had the same shot as anyone else to get one of the 40. They had to call cointaker when the news broke and say. I have 12.5k for a game. I’ll take one.

Right. Which is precisely what people are complaining about. I get Cointaker starting by offering games to people whose deposits they were holding. But it should have been possible to offer any remaining games to the EAs first (at $12.5k with no credit for money they’d previously paid to DP, of course). Then if EAs didn’t want them, open to the general public.

#9505 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Just out of curiosity, how would CT have done that? Just logistically speaking. Are they supposed to have some kind of list?

Presumably DP, who CT is coordinating with on this sale, has that list. Seems like something that could have been resolved with one, maybe two emails.

Quoted from Aurich:

I get the desire to do something for the EA, but the fact is DP screwed all of them, and there's no magic band aid for it. Being mad at CT seems misplaced, be mad at DP.

Is there anyone in this thread who’s advocating to blame CT for DP’s sins? Clearly CT isn’t a villain here. Just would have been nice if they’d offered any games not claimed by CT preorders to the EAs first before opening them to the general public.

1 week later
#9593 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

Remember when we were told contract manufacturing for pinball was going to be awesome? Seems like it was pitched as a "pinball is easy" solution back then as well.

It worked out for CGC when they had Stern building the first run of MMRs, and it's probably not a crazy concept if you score a sweet license but don't want to build a full manufacturing facility just to make a small number of boutique-priced games. But you've still got to properly manage your funds.

#9655 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

The number of completed games is speculative, maybe there are only 5, but definitely less than 40.

Did they say this in the Podcast? The Cointaker deal described in this thread was $12.5k for a prebuilt TBL that will ship within a month or two. You’re saying a good chunk of the games they just sold (maybe the great majority) have not been built yet? That would be quite a development.

[EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying I buy jeffspinballpalace's statement, I'm asking for the evidence since it seems contrary to everything else we've heard so far.]

#9676 1 year ago
Quoted from seenev:

I would be getting nervous if I threw $12,500 at this in a panic FOMO buy.

I wouldn't. Cointaker is a legit distributor and has promised that it will take care of the money and that nothing goes to ARA/DP without concrete assurance that games will ship. ARA wants the money, and DP wants ARA to get the money. So unless jeffspinballpalace is right and the games do not exist (no word yet from him on the basis for that claim), it seems highly likely to me that the $12,500 purchasers will get their games in short order.

#9738 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

40 games were sold to 40 CoinTaker’s preorders.

39FCF0E3-4503-4F08-88C9-7485965A35E8 (resized).jpeg

I don’t think CT had 40 preorders left - some games went to Nitro and some people on this thread that didn’t have CT preorders either bought or had opportunity to buy games.

#9821 1 year ago
Quoted from VividPsychosis:

Yes there was a judgement. All assets belong to ARA. Everything

Have you seen it? I think the point is that on this thread we only have Barry’s description of the ruling to go by.

#9852 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Yeah there needs to be a positive thread now that the machine are being released

There's already a TBL club thread for people that have received games where you'll find positive talk about the game, tech discussion, etc., without discussion of the many customers that DP hosed through this preorder fiasco. That thread is right here:

But then you'd know that because you tried to start a second owners' club thread and had it shut down as redundant. Yet for some reason you're still posting over here, on some kind of lame vicarious victory lap (so far as I can tell from your posts, you didn't even get in on the CT game allotment) without any acknowledgement of the EAs whose pilfered money made all of this possible.

Why not take your own advice and go post in the appropriate thread? Or are they already sick of you over there too?

#9870 1 year ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

"don't hate the players hate the game" Suck my dick bitch! How about an ounce of respect for that EA's that paid and allowed to happen?!... FUUUUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUUU! Wolfemaan...what a twat comment to make right now.

He's trolling, pure and simple, every one of his posts has been in the same vein. He'll keep it up until he gets cuntpunted out of here.

#9875 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Haters gonna hate

You are what you are, player:

#9921 1 year ago
Quoted from RTS:

Why do you think people hate Ben Heck?
The down votes could be for a condescending comment that "he's a man worth listening to."

Was that meant to be condescending, do you think? I took it as a well-deserved endorsement of Ben Heck.

#9949 1 year ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

maybe they could think of making a pro model that moves the bowling modes to video modes. i do agree.. as cool as it is, it doesnt add much to the game.

Hard to see people paying $12.5k for that.

#10003 12 months ago
Quoted from pinwaz:

Special k is an evil genius

He's neither of those things. But he seems to desperately crave attention, and he's very good at getting it.

#10022 12 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

JPOP victims ended up getting something...either a shitty broken Magic Girl, free money from Deep Root or a free game from Deep Root. If EA's were to band together, things could happen....

Two problems with this analysis:

1. Neither the AP Magic Girl run nor the deeproot settlement offer were a direct result of the lawsuit against Zidware/JPop, although neither might have happened but-for the lawsuit.

2. Both the AP Magic Girl and the deeproot settlement seem to have resulted from JPop's otherworldly ability to convince other people to cover his bad debts. There's no evidence that Barry or anyone else at DP (if there is anyone else at DP) has access to that same dark magic.

So yes, the EAs could still sue. But I don't see a straight line from there to a third party with more money than sense stepping in and throwing millions at the problem to make good on DP's old liabilities. And who knows what DP’s books look like today, but it's a little hard to believe there are big assets there to divide up in bankruptcy if things go that way.

#10050 12 months ago
Quoted from s1500:

I wouldn't feel like pitching in any $ in regards to TBL, any more than I would pitch in to the relief fund for victims of Bernie Madoff. This is a luxury toy, not life-saving medication.

Was anyone asking you to?

#10054 12 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The story at the time was direct air freight. So likely directly to customers.. not to cointaker.

Makes sense. The statement was that DP (not CT) would be inspecting them, and saves several hundred in shipping costs, plus added weeks of waiting, if they go straight to the customers.

#10083 12 months ago
Quoted from Rensh:

And testing was 100%. All have been unboxed.

Can you confirm whether the EA plaques were removed? And any word on what's going to be done with those?

#10090 12 months ago
Quoted from highdef:

That's actually Kevin Kulek's house.

I thought his house had wheels?

#10142 11 months ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Kaneda is posting pics of an unboxing in New Jersey today. No EA plaque was there, Rug was included.

How’s he going to get $30k if he unboxes it?

#10161 11 months ago
Quoted from estrader:

There is a point when you start throwing good money after bad.

There’s also a point where people start throwing out bad advice after good. There are some credible reasons some EAs might decide to sue DP, but creating a Zidware-style miracle bailout is not among them.

#10212 11 months ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I don’t like to current situation either but it is either they go bankrupt or try this route with a, big or small, chance for success. Barry is highly motivated to try this. Not because of financials as I mentioned above but because he wants us to get what he committed to. He may not feel guilty but feels for sure responsible.

Quoted from Rensh:

No, fact is we are as EA’s on this roller coaster without a steering wheel for us and we can only help, or pray if you want, for a good outcome. I try to help Barry as much as I can hoping he can pull it off. Won’t be easy and it is for sure not a done deal.

Did Barry tell you when DP will explain how it plans to resume production? Sale of the 40 games allowed DP to pay off some of its debt to ARA, but I don't understand how DP moves from where it is today (no more games, pile of parts, still owes ARA an undisclosed sum, still owes games to 100 or more EAs) to where it wants to be (DP generates sufficient resources to produce and sell enough new games to cover expenses, remaining debt to ARA, and begin paying down debt to EAs). Until DP puts a realistic plan on the table and starts taking concrete steps to execute on that plan, sympathy and patience for Barry will remain in short supply.

#10322 11 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Hes a proven troll. Look at the Deeproot thread for further proof. Mods should do something about this joker.

They already did. He was cut from the practice squad.

#10366 11 months ago
Quoted from ufotofu:

Apparently TILT Pinball Bar in Minneapolis is going to have this game within the next week or so...

Big props to them for putting it on route. Are there any others left in the world available for public play?

#10377 11 months ago
Quoted from Rick432:

Has ARA been "made whole"? Or do they still have claims?

Quoted from Nikonokin:

ARA issues over, all done.

Is this confirmed? I know that DP has stated that the lawsuit has officially been settled, but for some reason I thought that DP might still owe additional money to ARA under the settlement agreement even after the existing games were all sold off. Can't remember what I read to give me that understanding, though.

#10381 11 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

If that is the TBL that was at Alamo theater in SF then it’s has been pulled out 3 months ago. And the last time I played it, the rug mech was dead and the machine was quite beaten up.
I hope he puts it back on route somedays I did make Gene very rich with my piles of coins !

It was also turned off in March when I dropped by the Mission Drafthouse to check it out. I hope he’s able to get it back on it’s feet.

#10397 11 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

He’s personally building games and needs to sell 500 @ $12.5k before starting to make the EA’s whole!?

If that's really the plan, then Barry's finally gone full Kulek. What'd they talk about for the rest of the two hours?

Added 11 months ago:

EDIT: Having now listened to the full two hour podcast, I think dkjimbo's summary was off on several points. FWIW, here are my listening notes:

#10400 11 months ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

What you're forgetting is that other people can also listen to the podcast and hear that what you're saying it total bollocks...

I haven't had two hours yet to listen -- what does it actually say? Does Barry have a legitimate plan?

#10404 11 months ago
Quoted from wyopin:

He’s rented a business building, where he’ll build the first few games (at first just with he and another guy). He plans to have all EAs made whole upon finishing 400-500 games by the end of next year (it didn’t sound like a firm number was in place yet regarding if they’ll make 2 new money games, and then an EA game, or anything along those lines...he’ll have to get final parts numbers first) He seems to think there’ll be plenty of demand for 4-500 games at $12,500.

So after the first few games he'd move to a bigger facility and hire more workers to assemble the games? Or hire another contract mfr?

#10471 11 months ago
Quoted from Draegermeister:

I would be in for a NIB at $10k to $12.5k with a 10-15% non-refundable deposit and a sub 1 year delivery time, in case anyone in this thread is doing actual market research.

Just make sure your deposit is held by Cointaker or another reputable distributor, to be forwarded to DP only open shipment of your game. Otherwise, I wouldn't hold out much hope for your $1500 deposit. Or the Credence.

#10475 11 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

If DP were an American company, the EA's (largest group of creditors) would have filed suit and forced them into bankruptcy. As a result they may have gotten 20 cents on the dollar. Instead they do nothing and DP is still in business, so they will get nothing! DP has gotten a free pass from EA's for far too long.

Your "20 cents on the dollar" bankruptcy analysis implies that DP still had substantial assets. Do you know enough about what ARA's claims were worth, and what rights it had to the completed games and parts, to make any assessment of that at all? I sure don't, and I doubt you or anyone else posting here does either. It's true that the only way to find out would have been to take DP into bankruptcy, but there's a very real chance that, after the lawyers were paid and any secured debt was dealt with, the EAs would have received zero cents on the dollar. Doesn't mean it's not worth paying to file a claim and find out. But the gonzo legal advice offered up in this thread can be a bit much, even by Pinside standards.

#10483 11 months ago

I found time to listen to the whole two hour podcast (which was evidently recorded several weeks ago, as DP was still in the process of picking up the parts). If you’re interested in hearing Barry present the plan going forward, jump to 1:29.

Key points on Barry's plan to get TBL back into production:

  • The parts are now in a storage facility
  • DP is in the process of leasing a new production facility
  • Have nearly full parts for 25-50 games, lots of partial parts beyond that
  • Not concerned about sourcing parts for future games (including potentially from ARA, which did the sheet metal parts)
  • Early production will most/all be sold to new buyers to generate funds, then DP will start interspersing production of games for EAs alongside production for new sales
  • DP will need to make 400-500 games total in order to get games to all EAs (meaning sale of 265-365 games to new buyers funds production of 135 games for EAs)
  • Barry is confident there’s a market for 500 more TBLs at $12.5k
  • No statement on when production will start, Barry hopes "very soon"
  • Initially, game will be built by Barry, Gus (sp?), and a few volunteers
  • Production will slowly ramp up, DP will then hire people
  • Barry says DP has funding in place to see project through, is “sure they can pull it off”
  • Target is to have all EAs receive games by end of 2020 (requiring avg 8 games/week)
  • Will sell exclusively through Cointaker in US, through DP in Europe and rest of world
  • DP is considering adding a cheaper “Pro” model at some point, no decision made
  • “No preorders this time”

Other items of interest:

  • Barry's apology and commitment to get the EAs their games is at 1:57
  • Per Barry, 55 games were initially shipped to EAs, 135 EAs are still owed games
  • Barry couldn’t bring himself to admit that it was a lie to say ARA wasn’t shipping games due to board problems (he repeatedly called it an “excuse”)
  • Barry does not get into the details of why DP lost the court case, or what specifically the ruling was going to be (understandable, settlements often limit the parties from talking about the case)
  • In general, Barry did not have a tremendous amount to say about DP's past history, mainly agreeing or disagreeing with the interviewers statements of fact. He did seem to want to say something about the soundtrack issues (all but forgotten given subsequent events, but an early point where DP seemed to be misleading its customers while leaning on Roger Sharpe's image), but subject was dropped. Barry seemed more animated about the path forward, which I suppose is a good thing.
#10487 11 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Barry also believed there was a market for pimped our BoP 2.0 remakes at that price too.

That one was a headscratcher.

I'm not endorsing Barry's sales projections, BTW (or anything else I summarized from the podcast). Stern's consistently able to sell 500-600 LEs at ~$9k, so I think $10k for 500 more TBLs seems feasible -- it's a fun game with a killer theme, after all. But the instant sellout at $12.5k was based in good part on the expectation that there'd be no more games made, so I wouldn't bank on that price working for a larger run.

Of course none of that matters anyway until they get production up and running, which based on past performance I will believe when I see. That said, it sounds like Barry wants to make DP work and satisfy his debts to the EAs, so I will hope for the best.

#10508 11 months ago
Quoted from Draegermeister:

I'm totally for non-refundable partial deposits, with a product delivery window clause. Partial deposits get assembly lines moving faster, while full deposits remove the hustle incentive from the upstart manufacturer. That's what we had in this case, as full deposits created a pile of money that wasn't managed well. Partial deposits make upstarts hustle to complete games, because they get paid on completion. The games rolling off first have to have good quality, because we'll document all of it.
Separately, we could debate if DP deserves this third/fourth chance. But, non-refundable partial deposits ensure both parties are motivated to get the transaction completed positively. It separates tire kickers from real buyers if there's $1,000 at stake.

I agree with everything you say, so long as the deposit is in escrow (held by a reputable distributor like Cointaker) and released to DP only when the game is ready to ship.

#10543 11 months ago
Quoted from seenev:

I'm just asking if you got a cut or fee for each game. I see a lot of numbers there but no direct answer.

Cointaker is a distributor and took on a bunch of work to sell those 40 games. What would possibly make you think that they wouldn't get a cut or fee for each game sold? That's not how distribution works.

#10564 11 months ago
Quoted from kvan99:

There is a bigger issue here, I'm talking about reselling a game that was paid for by someone else. It's wrong, anyway you dice it, it's still wrong. The fees the money paid and the details is the transparency part that would have helped with the closure. If it was a deal that wasn't tainted by fraud, then it wouldn't be any of our business. But as it stands right now this is akin to buying stolen goods.

The sale of the 40 games to new buyers was not "tainted by fraud" or "akin to buying stolen goods." As Iceman and others have pointed out, that's just not the way the law works. You can draw subjective moral judgments about people doing business with DP/ARA under the circumstances if you want to, but that doesn't mean any laws were broken.

But even if you were right on the law, if Cointaker was fraudulently helping DP sell stolen goods, would it really make any difference whether they accepted payment for their services or not? They'd still be helping DP break the law, right? Of course that's not what happened here, and it's not shocking that a distributor is getting paid to distribute (though based on Cointaker's comments, not nearly enough to be worth the hassle).

#10569 11 months ago
Quoted from kvan99:

See my other post about normalizing this kind of behavior.

Quoted from kvan99:

Scenario #2, he would approaches me and says I have a way to get the 40 games released and into the hands of 40 of the EAs....but they have to fork over $4k each....I would say ok, let's call the the people on the list and ask who wants in.....
Scenario #3, he approaches me and says I think I have a way to partially refund the 150 EAs, by auctioning off the 40 games and distribute the money amongst the EAs.....

These would both have been lovely outcomes. But there was no possibility for either of them to happen, because of DP's large debt to ARA. Those 40 machines were sitting in ARA's warehouse and they weren't going to release them without a court order. And if you believe DP, ARA had effectively won the lawsuit and DP was not getting those games back (if you don't believe DP, you'll have to explain to me why the hell they'd pursue this course of behavior, as it doesn't make any sense otherwise). So the options were bankruptcy, or finding a way to settle with ARA. As I understand it , every penny of the sale money went straight from Cointaker to ARA to cover the settlement agreement that was reached, so Barry did not see any of it. You could argue that bankruptcy would have been more transparent, but it certainly wouldn't have guaranteed any recovery by the EAs. There's a chance now, however slim, that more games could be made, and I have to believe that's worth something.

#10572 11 months ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Dude these games were awarded by Court to ARA (for the millionth time). At this point they were no longer Barry’s and not stolen goods. Do you have a court system in your state?!!

Quoted from JodyG:

The agreement was made outside of court, IIRC.

DP's explanation was that the court was about to award legal control of the games to ARA, and DP and ARA then reached a settlement agreement under which the games would be sold through CoinTaker, ARA would get the proceeds, DP would take the remaining parts, and all legal claims would be dropped. So you are correct that ARA never got a final court order awarding them legal control over the games. But it's not like DP could have just walked into ARA's warehouse, picked up the games, and sent them to the next 40 EAs or resold them and spread the proceeds among all of the EAs. ARA was never going to release those games to DP without a court order, and there's no reason to think DP had any more hope of winning such an order from the court. So DP needed ARA's agreement to do anything with the games.

#10576 11 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

More like... the court agreeing that DP owed ARA the monies demanded... and the settlement was effectively a 3 way trade as a means to allow ARA to collect.

Maybe. The way DP described it, it wasn't going to be just a cash judgment, but also give ARA the right to continue to control the machines. If the court was going to issue a cash judgment against DP, but also order ARA to turn the games and parts over to DP before payment was made, it would be a somewhat different story.

#10596 11 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

How many complete game's worth of parts does Barry have? 25 or so?
That's all the more new TBL's that will ever be built.

On the podcast Barry said they have nearly full parts for 25-50 games. I’d think the biggest hurdle would be actually building and selling those first 50 games, not sourcing parts for more games after that.

#10686 11 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

Because in reality 500 games need to be built before taking care of the EAs and the odds for this to happen tend to grow thinner.

In the podcast Barry said DP would need to ship 400-500 total games to cover the EAs (so 265-365 games to new buyers at $12.5k + 135 games to the EAs interspersed throughout). Still a tall order, of course.

#10740 11 months ago
Quoted from KerryImming:

For sake of argument, let's use fosaisu 's numbers of 365 new paid games plus 135 pre-paid Early Achiever (EA) games. This is roughly a 3 : 1 ratio.

Just to be clear those are Barry’s numbers from the podcast, not something I came up with on my own. I’ve got zero independent knowledge about any of this.

#10754 11 months ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

It was still a leap of faith, as you were sending $12,500 and there was a chance you wouldn’t get a game. I am certain some got cold feet when it came time to wire the money.

I guess there was always that chance but the payment through CT seemed pretty safe for the 40 premade games.

With Barry now directly taking preorders it’s not clear if he’ll be sticking to his “no preorders” pledge, or if DP will try to start collecting money again before games are complete.

#10763 11 months ago
Quoted from KerryImming:

if the plan is to sell 365 new games before a singe EA game ships that might as well be made clear up front.

On the podcast, Barry said that at the start they'll need to sell an (unspecified) number of games to get things up and running, and then as they go they'll intersperse shipments to EAs with shipments to new paying customers (at an unspecified ratio, presumably varying based on DP's production cash burn). If the actual plan turns out to be ship nothing to EAs until 365 new games are sold, that'd be a serious departure from what Barry has announced to the public, and also very concerning for the EAs as the likelihood of them ever seeing games decreases if they're not being made side-by-side with new paid games.

Quoted from KerryImming:

Also, apologies to @fosaisu. My intent was to give you credit for posting the numbers, not imply that you were responsible for them.

No worries, I figured that's what you meant, just didn't want to give people the impression I have insider knowledge.

#10770 11 months ago