77...

Quality, detail, listening to their customers..DP just rolled into the semis..

So glad DP is taking the time to do it right. Love everything about this game - worth the wait. "If you will it, it is not a dream" Go Dutch Pinball!

If you will it, it is no dream dude..Congrats! The game looks amazing.

Reading between the lines, ARA went over budget to produce the game. DP can't absorb $1K per game if the profit margin is under $2K per game - it's too lean. ARA can't/doesn't want to absorb the overages either. I would gladly pay more to end the standoff and get the game. IMO it's possibly the best game ever, and I never did pay for that chrome upgrade.

Anyone that wants to pay more can pay off ARA and get the game now..Those that don't want to pay can go to court with DP to fight ARA and see what happens.

It was pretty clear it was only 1K per game. The dispute is neither side wants to give in. 240 games left, $240,000 balance in dispute.

wonder if Phil was hinting at a remake of BOP when he said the next game would be "back to the future"
I'm still behind DP, sounds like they tried everything to work it out. Hopefully, the case will go our way and the games will be released soon.

We all knew there would be no refunds after the game went into production. If you want to go after someone, sue ARA not DP.

ARA broke the contract with DP, sue them..Suing DP is about as productive as suing yourself.

The drama is being brought by the reactionaries here. DP is stating what happened, It sucks but it will be resolved.

This isn't cancer, it's a delay in a pinball production schedule. Things will start up again, what the f*ck else are they going to do with the parts?
Eventually the games will be built and shipped. Until then we should be asking DP what we can do to help get this resolved...

Information? We have it all. Dispute between ARA and DP, being worked out in court. Money - tied up in parts for the games. We all saw plenty of footage of playfields, ramps, rugs, boxes, ect. It's not a Kevin K or any other situation.
Dispute gets resolved, production starts up and the games are shipped. Could be tomorrow could be longer. Extra lawsuit won't help, wild speculation - worth nothing. Supporting DP and trying to help may be the best thing we can do at this point.

This thread is becoming very undudelike. Let's try and help DP deliver TBL, not ruin them in the process.

Rarehero, you need to calm the f*ck down. RTR, being a hothead accomplishes nothing. I'm only saying lets work with DP to solve whatever issue there is to get this back on track. Code's not finished, want a half coded game? I want to work with the guys to make this dream a reality. It's too great a game to not see it through..

You're not playing a part, you're a real life jerk

I'm in the same boat you are WC. My game is one of the completed games at ARA ready to ship. I want all 300 TBL's to be built and see everyone get their games - with finished code.

Thanks Rensh. I don't see the guys walking around in Armani suits with Rolex watches. We do see enough expensive parts to make the games so we have to believe DP is heavily invested in TBL. And it's more logical to understand the BOP SLE was created to leverage the unexpected price increases from ARA. You want a price increase? help me get there by making 50 of these to offset the increase in TBL. Evidence of this is the working prototype ARA is holding. You're not paying your bills on the first game, would someone make a second game? I would say no. So we have indirect proof TBL bills were being paid.
ARA not meeting the production schedule has a lot to do with what is happening now. Look at some of the old video from ARA and see for yourself if they met their own production schedule, or not.
I get the frustration, but lets not let our emotions take over. Let's be logical and find a solution to help DP assemble the parts into 300 games.
And for the record, I did offer to pay extra $ in February since our game is one of the completed games being held at ARA and Jaap turned it down. If this is a money scam, they're bad at it.
DP wants their customers to have their games at the agreed price, and not more. I'm still willing to pay more, let's see what happens. Posting "angry" is not logical, not helping, and works against your own interests at ever getting your game or your money back.
Suing would probably send the project into bankruptcy. You would only get a fraction of your investment and no finished code for the people that already have games.

If ARA said there are only 10 completed games when there are clearly many more - how do we believe anything from ARA?

So it's not 10 completed games - someone at ARA lied to Kapper? Pictures and eyewitness accounts of at least 78 completed games at ARA, possibly up to 95.

If they refund one person, they would possibly have to refund everyone and there's realistically not enough money to do that at this time. They are heavily invested in materials and IP which they could leverage in a deal with a new CM if a better deal with ARA can not be negotiated. A money stream is great to have, but not essential for creating a new deal with a new CM.

Let's not fight each other. We all want DP to come through and deliver all the preorder games to the rightful owners. You have to admit, the project ran into trouble when we signed with ARA - go after them.

Not really done. Rarehero turned down 3K so he's still a believer and Unigroove offered to buy it, so there's a new customer. Has the whole world gone crazy, why is everyone helping ARA ??

You are helping ARA with every down post to DP, without any facts to support the angry post. No, not worried about parts breaking - the game is solid. Concerned that people at the end of the line may not get their games if a bad deal with ARA is rushed into.

Yes, I'm #77 dude..What's your number?

the royal "we'"....Are you in on TBL? This is a members only thread.

Sometimes you can't give out more details, this may go to trial.
Everything, everything points to ARA. So DP was wrong to go with what seemed to be a good CM, they already said that. Now, DP is untangling away from ARA - and also trying to make it work with ARA if they will be reasonable. Why both? In the best interest of seeing the project to completion in the shortest amount of time.
Folks who don't have a penny into DP are angry and posting false assumptions here - really don't need that kind of "help".
DP is holding way more cards- they just can't show them. If they were upside down with no way forward why not sign that horrible deal? That should tell you something.

They said/ they said ended when ARA lied to kapper - 10 finished games in the ARA warehouse?? More like 45. And we all know the boxes are huge, how do you miscount a pinball machine? Proof of who is lying. And it's not DP talking, it's independent sources.

ARA said 40, now they say only 10 completed games. You were there and saw the games RD, and you moved the boxes. Everything points to bad info coming from ARA. If you're a good CM you cost the project correctly from the start, you deliver when you say you will, and you certainly don't give out wrong info to your customers clients.

Neil, Are you invested in TBL? If not, please stop posting - this is members only thread.

Why this forum? To have as many questions answered and also allow for follow up questions if the answer leads to another question. It's a smart way to go, keeps angry trolls out without spending extra cash for webex or other online services.

Were we on the same stream?? They are going forward with a new CM to deliver TBL's. The second title has been put on hold to focus on finishing the first run of TBL. They are waiting on quotes, which will take a few weeks. DP has all documentation and plans for building TBL which we own, not ARA as Barry and Jaap wrote all the assembly instructions.
Some of the pre order money was spent to get us this far in IT, development, materials - refunds can't happen for everyone so no one can be refunded.
ARA has a lot invested in materials/finished games which they can never sell. ARA breached the original contract with DP by not delivering finished games on time or on budget. Suing ARA also may happen down the road. Suing is a long process, if we sue we would have to wait longer for a refund/game.

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It wouldn't surprise me if ARA suddenly decided to honor the original contract once DP has a new CM willing to finish TBL. It would be less costly than a lawsuit/scrapping all the games and materials.

If I were DP, I could pay whatever the new CM wants - and send the bill to ARA and Nivoge for breach of the original contract for the original 300 games.

Maybe the spot sold so fast because it's a low number finished game? It would benefit ARA to reach an agreement before the new quote comes in.

He's been complaining for quite a while, why refund him now? Let's hope we may be closer to a resolution and having the finished games shipped, and the rest built with ARA or the new CM.

You believe it will fail, but you want full price? Your game isn't assembled yet, more risk on your number than Rares. I don't want any profits, just want all the games to be completed and delivered to the rightful owners.

I'm just saying a working assembled game NIB has more value than a box of parts.

? that's not the question. We're saying both do ship, a box of parts or a finished game. The assembled game should be worth more. What's your number?

I'm 77...In it like you, that's all. I'm just looking at what's there, like you. ARA had a contract to deliver, and they didn't that's a fact. DP is working to get us our games with a new CM.
A great CM delivers 10% under budget and timeline. A good CM delivers 10% over. ARA was so far off the timeline and budget, it's ridiculous - not even close. ARA quoted the game, not DP. Why aren't you going after ARA? We all signed with ARA when DP signed with ARA...
It's unfortunate but it happens, and it will be resolved.
From what I understand CM#1 can be held accountable in court for anything over the original contract DP will have to pay CM#2, and possibly more.

If Barry did wire the refund to RH, why is that a red flag? If you're selling your spot wouldn't you send payment directly to DP so they can change their records to your contact info and DP refunds the original purchaser? I really don't see this as an issue, if it is true.

Quote from Razor:
"it could be construed as a preferential transfer to one creditor (Rarehero) allowing a 100% recovery on his claim, while the other creditors requesting refunds are being refused (0% recovery)."

It's not a refund, it could be someone saw RH's ad here and and wanted his specific spot (finished game) - nothing more.

Or you could read it as someone believes the hostage games may be released in some type of deal with ARA before too long?

WC, I assure you I'm only an EA - just like you. I have no additional contact with DP or info than you.
RH made a ton of threats, and DP never refunded so I doubt they did it now.
Just guessing that we may be a few weeks away from ARA settling with DP. If that happens then some lucky person jumped in for 2 or 3 weeks and will have a finished game very soon.
Just a guess so please don't think I have inside info if it does happen.

DP contract bought finished games from ARA. If ARA has only 10 games (as they claim) the current DP bill can't be that high? All the liability seems to be on ARA for breach of contract.

Flynn, DP laid out everything in writing and then on live-stream if it's false info ARA can use it all in court, so it's probably true. This isn't about DP not paying, that doesn't add up. ARA made BOP LE proto - why do that if DP wasn't paying bills?
ARA didn't produce 300 TBL, they either couldn't or didn't want to.
One interesting thing on livestream, the DP contract was for the assembly of 300 TBL's plus warranty from ARA. Maybe ARA had seconds thoughts and wanted out?
ARA appeared to be doing everything wrong to get DP to break the contract. Late delivery, huge price increases, broken promises on game 2, speaking to DP customers, as of today still have not made 300 TBL.. How do you go to court with that?
DP did everything over and above to help the project and make concessions, even offered more money to ARA. I don't think ARA wanted more money, I think they wanted out. I can't see any upside for ARA in court against DP.

Flynn, A CM creates the quote not the customer. If they want 1K more, the original contract would have them at 10K per game, that would be 10% so we know that's a ridiculous number from ARA. The more the percentage increases the less faith you have in the CM. That's such an abnormal percentage increase, and DP agreed to it - and ARA still won't make games you have to wonder if ARA wants out.
A court would determine how well you delivered to the contract - I can't see anything for ARA in court except loss. A settlement to break the contract with DP may be what ARA wanted all along.
If ARA wanted to have a better chance in court, they would have honored their side of the contract and built the games on time on budget or even over. And yes, not only do you forfeit all monies owed - you may owe your customer for damages if you can prove not delivering to the contract cost you revenue/customers.
DP creating the assembly instructions for ARA is outrageous and more proof DP went above beyond to help. The CM is responsible to train their workers not the customer. When was the last time you walked into any company and wrote instructions on how the employees were going to execute the work you were paying for?

The bowling mech was on display Sept 27, 2014. DP signed with ARA as CM to build TBL Feb, 2015. DP should at least be able to use the bowling mech, if not more? It was a prior contract with ARA and unrelated to the second contract to build the game. Looking forward to hearing more from Jaap next week..

ARA is suing DP? If true, the suit should not end in ARA's favor. Contract with DP was to deliver 300 TBLs in 2015 for a set price - as we all know that did not occur. Difficult case to win to allege you were not paid for your work if you didn't perform the work you were to be paid for.

Update:
Dear
Welcome to your weekly update on the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.

This week we received all parts and we will begin building the first Engineering Sample. We are very excited about this as you'll understand!

We also received the confirmation that our new contract manufacturer will join us at Expo in Chicago. We will introduce them at our presentation on Friday, 6 PM so you will have a chance to meet him and ask all questions that you have.

Our next update will be at Expo. We will send an email to you so if you can't join our presentation you will receive the news via email.

Kind regards,

Barry & Jaap

This is a members only thread only TBL members should be posting here. I like the new CM, new board set, and the plan to build in China. Once the line starts rolling the games should move pretty quickly so waiting a little longer won't be that much longer. ARA suing DP and winning isn't a reality. DP suing ARA and winning is more likely, but I would expect ARA to settle with DP well before that happens. You heard it here first- and No, I do not work for DP or have been given any extra information.

24 - Please listen to Jaaps livestream from June, he laid it all out on what ARA did and why ARA never put themselves in a position to be paid. Short story, ARA didn't provide a correct bill for the first 50 games - ARA wanted more than the original contract price. DP did agree to cost increases, but only if all the games were completed and delivered by certain deadlines. The deadlines were not met, but ARA still wanted the extra money. I can't fault DP, or anyone for not paying a bill that is over the true amount owed. Hard to win in court with "my wrong bill was not paid" and "I didn't deliver 300 games, but I was going to"

I believe in DP and Jaap. The DP open will have a working new generation TBL, we'll all have our games shortly after. ARA never disputed they sent a higher invoice, they also fired their head guy. If ARA was in the right, they would have filed a long time ago..Or is it, "I'm not suing because I don't want the money you owe me for my work and all these parts" so crazy, I almost spilled my kool-aid.

You'll have your TBL before you see a lawsuit from ARA. Need to submit a correct invoice in order to receive payment, if they wanted to be paid they would have. ARA held the project hostage for most of the time we all have been waiting. But you're angry with DP ?

Cooked - DP never stated they have no money left. They said they didn't have all the funds to complete the project. Whatever is left most likely is going to the new CM to get the project started. If ARA completed the contract on time and on budget we wouldn't be here - I can only blame ARA.

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DP contracted with ARA to assemble 300 games - delivery between April 2015 - October 2015, payment due on delivery of the completed games. ARA completed/delivered 50 games by April 2016.
The numbers come out to less than 20% of the contract completed in over twice the contracted timeline, with over 80% of the contract yet to deliver. Cost increases would not be acceptable or appropriate due to the lack of performance to the contract. If the invoice ARA submitted was incorrect, DP would not have to pay until a correct invoice was received.
One could also speculate that DP has filed a counter claim against ARA for the 250 games not completed by October 2015, the original due date. Add to that the second agreement on price/schedule and additional 50 game run was also broken - again by ARA. Loss of business, reputation, future sales, new CM cost, ect - all go in DP’s favor.
Maybe ARA is suing DP just to close the books and write it off as a loss?

HD - This is for you. Everyone else, please get ready to down vote I hope I get at least 16 this time.

The 20 or 40 games at ARA wouldn't count as they were never "delivered" but lets work the numbers and see how ARA comes out.

30% delivery on a contract that was over due by over seven months leaves -70% due on the contract . Terrible numbers, one could say "failing" numbers or another legal term is "fundamental breach".
The amount owed was always the question. DP wanted the original price and ARA wanted the new price even though they did not meet the contract terms or
the second agreed terms. I don't blame DP, I wouldn't pay extra for services not received. If someone ever gives you bill for services you did not receive it's in your right not to pay it until they provide you a correct bill.
DP did say to start over with a new CM and sue at the same time would not be possible. They wanted to get our games out then sue ARA for what happened. They had years to file - getting our games out was the priority suing would take place after.

ARA sees this as a win-win. Bankrupt DP and win, lose in court and write it all off.

Lets see how the courts view this, if it makes it to court.

I did offer DP more money when the ARA thing first hit, they declined. I also offered more cash last week, they declined again. I'm not affiliated with DP, I'm only an EA - our game is number 77.
I do believe in the project and the dream to play against people from all over the world and I still have no reason to believe that will not happen. It is a great game, the best original title in the last 20 years IMHO. -EL

Flynn,
It was more about delivery (or lack of) than money. DP offered more $ if the second schedule was met, and ARA couldn't do it.

DP delivered 2 working models to ARA. That's huge, having an engineering model in front of them an accurate quote and timeline should have been easy. Most people go to CM's with ideas or drawings not working models.
As the CM it was ARA's responsibility to produce a quote and delivery schedule for the contract. If there was a 4th playfield added later I would see your point - that didn't happen.

Numbers don't lie. If ARA was a competent CM the project would have wrapped up all 300 games in 7 months on budget and we wouldn't be here typing. To drag it out 14 months and only have 50 games delivered says a lot about who they are. And the main ARA board was not the best plan. The new board set is far superior so I kind of hope DP asks in the counter to destroy the undelivered 20-40 of the "ARA" models at ARA's expense. It would be better to start over with the new CM.

RTR, In summary, Brijam posted "take it easy man, nothing is fu@ked here" ... Keep posting Brijam -I like your style Dude

Hey RTR, For me it's only a numbers game - the numbers are still leaning heavily in our favor that DP will come out on top and deliver all the games to the EA's. ARA's numbers are extremely bad as the CM for TBL so that's good for DP in a big way.

To be a competent CM you need to be at 95%. Margin of error is only plus or minus 5% on cost, delivery, and schedule. The CM develops the cost, delivery and schedule which is agreed to by the customer.
ARA had 2 working models to create the DP estimate, they should have been very aware of what they were getting into when they signed on to do TBL. No major changes happened, we did lose the lighted apron and bowling ball start button - that would have made the game easier to produce for ARA not more difficult.

TBL was a DP contract for 300 games, 210 day schedule, cost we'll guess at $6000.

ARA delivered 50 games to DP, in 420 days, cost is again unknown but 2 increases we'll guess - $7800.

Run ARA's percentages and see for yourself how ARA rates as the CM for TBL.

April 2015
ARA and DP signed a contract that says that DP will buy 300 TBLs from ARA, delivered between April and October 2015.
May 2015
ARA informs DP that the agreed price is too low because the cost price is higher than estimated. DP agrees with the new price.
April 2016
First shipment of TBL.

ARA metrics. 300 delivered games, April-October 2015 - 210 days.
First delivery of only 50 games - 420 days later

ARA's numbers are: 16% delivery , 200% late on schedule, 25-30% over on price. Horrible numbers, they failed in every category. If there were major board issues, ARA made the board set so ARA fails again in the 4th category- quality.
In the US you can sue the CM for loss of reputation, business, damages, ect if they fail to meet the contract.
If the law in the NL is the same, the numbers suggest ARA is not in a good position.

If ARA has to pay DP for the 250 TBL's they couldn't produce on time on budget DP will walk away with everything they need to finish the original project, and a lot more.

Did you ever hire someone to remodel your kitchen? Half way through they stop showing up and go work on another contract. Do you spend your remaining money going after them to no avail, and your kitchen remains a disaster. Or do you spend your money on a new contractor, get your house back in order, then go after them later. Priorities I would say drove the decision, nothing more.

I agree that it's pointless to keep going back and forth. ARA was very good in the beginning of the contract, let's hope they will be good for us again and see the opportunity and negotiate with DP to close the ARA contract. Then DP can continue production with xytech and get all the games to the EA's. And a second or third or forth or all they way up to a tenth set of 300 games can be made for anyone else who wants a TBL around the world.

There is money to be made for sure, if all the passion in this thread is any indication. There's nothing in it for anyone if the game dies before it has a chance to hit the market in large numbers. Good luck to all the EA's, and everyone not in but would like to see the game in production and available to purchase... if you will it Dudes, it is no dream..

ARA admits DP paid for the "first few" games and I would bet all DP ARA bills were paid up to that point. DP was paying bills at ARA, that's good. DP did say they agreed to a price increase, "IF" ARA would start producing games faster. ARA never did increase production, but maybe still wanted the price increase?

Did DP pay "nothing", or did DP pay the original price minus the increase? If DP paid nothing for the 50 games, maybe it was over the disagreement on price increases and asking for a correct invoice. Did the person who wrote that letter get fired from ARA shortly after? Maybe some or all statements in that letter are false or misleading.

DP noted on livestream when they started production with xytech they (DP) would seek financing for the "reset". Once the production line moves and games ship, money could be collected. Most of the money for TBL has yet to be received on the first run of 300 games so we know it's there and not spent. The strategy of shipping some later number games first, mixed in with higher numbers already paid would fund xytech production on the first 300 games. An additional run of 300, or more following after.

Thanks for the letter, it now makes sense on why people are posting the way they are and It also helps the DP court case against ARA.

February 24, 2017 date on the letter we can measure ARA's performance as the CM on TBL and see how they were doing.

33% completed, only 16% delivered, +400% on schedule -67% over due and we will guess +25-30% over budget. Numbers are working against ARA, for DP.

We also know that the person in charge of the DP contract was terminated (shortly after the letter was sent out), Barry and Jaap were back at ARA on April 7, 2017 to negotiate the release of the games and restart of production.

April - October 2015 - 210 day schedule, 300 games delivered plus warranty by ARA. That's what has been posted. Kapper, Please provide your numbers if you do not agree.

"Do you know if he was fired as a direct result of the contract? For all we know, he could've been terminated for stealing paper clips or pinching bums in the workplace. "

...We do know after he was fired,(which coincidentally was shortly after the date on the letter) ARA and DP immediately started speaking again so we may infer a connection.

Haha..I assure you I'm not DP. If the letter is not 100% true, ARA lying to DP customers may be defamation- some DP customers truly believed the unsigned letter. DP collected our money, who signed with ARA to build the games. Is the root cause of us not receiving our games in October 2015 ARA failing to perform to the DP contract? Why wouldn't ARA produce our games? The low production numbers suggest ARA may not have wanted to make TBLs.

If ARA generated a bad quote to produce TBL, that's on ARA not on DP. Let's speculate it would cost ARA $1800 extra per game to produce.
300 x $1800 = negative $540,000 If they fulfil the DP contract. Which may explain why ARA kept moving our TBL build back and working on other ARA contracts.

The contract: 300 completed TBL's between April - October 2015 - 210 day build. The letter is dated Feb 2017 - 660 days over due with only 90 completed games - less than 1/3 of the contract completed? If we suspect that more time would result in more cost, how could the price stay the same as our letter writer states?
ARA was very competent in the beginning with the bowling ball assembly and now we understand ARA made the DP sample games we saw at the release party. Something isn't adding up on why ARA's delivery to the contract was so low, even the anonymous ARA letter writer states DP was paying bills.

ARA in the 51/49 deal could have stopped making games before they started losing money, not everyone would have received the game they paid for and DP would be over. A minor victory for some people with low number games, bad for others that would lose their money and never receive anything, bad for DP, bad for people that would have games with unfinished code, and no warranty. I'm glad DP walked away - and we have a low number game and would have most likely received our TBL.

Not sure about NL courts vs US courts, but I imagine they are similar. DP has a strong case, which is good for us EA's and ARA has a lot of explaining to do. Question is, does DP have enough money to pay the lawyers to fight ARA and is there enough money at ARA to pay DP for damages?

Some people have suggested a gofundme or kickstart - good idea. I'll add more money to DP, if they need money to fight ARA in court or kickstart the line at xytech.

If it is true? Then we have to believe ARA forgot how to build TBLs. They built the prototype games, their numbers should have been better than 660+ days to make it to only number 90.

Hmmm, not a bad idea for the future, or restart the line at xytech? The new CM seems to be doing much better, we were making great progress. Unfortunately we have to deal with the ARA issue now.

Quoted from Brijam:
"Throughout this it's really a shame that DP hasn't done a better job communicating their challenges and day to day struggles. If they had, maybe the pinball community would have rallied to their side in a gofundme legal defense for them."

This is an excellent idea Brijam. Does anyone have any experience starting a gofundme? If we could raise enough for a legal defense, ARA would most likely back down and settle with DP quickly. Xytech could then start producing games, once games start flowing EA's that want out would have a viable option to receive all their money back . I have donated to a few gofundme campaigns over the years, I know nothing about starting one.

Haha.....Nope, I already posted I'm not with DP just an EA like you RTR. The Big Lebowski is a cult movie, it goes far beyond the pinball community. A lot of people would not want to own a pinball machine, but they would like to play TBL. Small donations in large numbers would do great things to get the project back on track.

No, the letter from ARA said they were paying bills. The "non payment" ARA is claiming could be read as "DP didn't pay the increase". We don't know what really happened, just speculation.

Can't see it that way. If ARA produced a larger number of games in a shorter period of time I might join you. ARA never did, and never would have if they were losing money on TBL. If you do collect Maybe ARA can finish 210 more TBLs by 2035, looking at their ability to produce a finished game.

Yes ARA did send that letter to someone on pinside- very sketchy business practice at ARA. I do believe ARA was taking DP for a ride, along with all of us and all our EA money. While DP is not perfect they are way better than ARA.

Xytech has produced a few TBLs in a short amount of time with an improved board set. Let's agree to disagree on what turned the line off. You say DP didn't pay ARA, I say DP didn't agree with paying the extra money ARA was demanding. Do we agree time is money? Instead of 300 games in 210 days. ARA could only manage 90 games in 660 days. How could there not be a price increase? ARA's story isn't adding up. As you suggested, Barry and Jaap could have put out more TBL's if they built the games by hand.

I guess I can't be the most gullible or naïve person on pinside if ARA supporters exist. LOL

I'm just trying to accept the situation we are in today and find a way forward. I don't want any EA's to lose on TBL, even those I don't agree with.

Good question DCFAN, why would we need to find a way forward- we don't. But it benefits us and all the other EA's if we do so we'll try. That being said, we're forming the "Seattle Seven". We are EA's brainstorming ways to end ARA involvement in TBL and restart the line. Doesn't it seem like whenever ARA is involved everything grinds to a halt? LOL.. 90 games in only two years, nice job ARA - you must have been working in shifts!
If you want to join us, everyone with a sense of humor is welcome - not just EA's. PM me and We'll fill you in on the details.