Quoted from Shastings:
Does it come with coin mechs?
36 emails said they didnt want them, so no.
Nothings f****d here.
The arrogance with which the game was launched last year certainly set DP up for a higher level of scrutiny. And the lack of transparency about the changes didn't go down well. But fundamentally the game hasn't really changed.
Game oozes quality from those pics.
The rug is going to look pretty cool under the game.....lucky achievers!
That bowling alley mech looks over the top....hope it's reliable. Not something I'd want to be servicing regularly.
Would love to get one, but need to play it first.
Here's some "alternate facts":
They got the first few games out and began building the next batch. A board problem (and maybe some other problems) and subsequent re-design was identified that was not foreseen when the original costing was agreed on. ARA said they need an extra €1000 to build the games to these new specs. Dutch disagreed and ARA refused to release the 2nd run of games until the new price was agreed on.
So in Dutch's defense, it could have been a board issue originally but it has since morphed into something else. ARA are clearly trying to adjust the agreement terms to account for the new specs, but possibly also using the board change as an excuse to revise their original quote which was too cheap.
This will most likely be just another bump in the road for Dutch. They'll pay ARA the extra for the games that are already produced (or win legal action) and move on to find another manufacturer. Or they'll just give up, refund anyone who has paid up and the few TBL's already delivered will become the result of yet another pinball legend.
I could be completely wrong.
And I can't understand why ARA bypassed Dutch and began communicating directly with Dutch's customers. Really unprofessional.
Quoted from RobT:
Flynnibus is pretty notorious around here for saying people said something that they didn't say, then, in the same breath, denying that he said something that he did say. Trying to have a debate with him simply leads to far too much head banging to make it worth it.
I didn't know anyone read his posts. They take up about 5 screens on my iphone.
Quoted from flynnibus:
well you could argue that lack of specificity is 99% of the fuckup here for Dutch and what most people believe/or not is happening... so you reap what you sow I guess. You get one liners and no one really knows wtf is going on. But it fits fine on your phone I guess...
Users here don't like specifics because it goes counter to the 'fan the flames' attitude that drives more than half the flaming threads here.
Just having a bit of fun.
How could ARA possibly know whether Dutch was "able to meet its payment obligations"? That whole letter is really strange. But could be a lost in translation moment.
So merging the 2 sides correspondence: Dutch are refusing to pay for the first shipment of already delivered games simply because ARA couldnt/wouldnt/didnt also commence production of the 2nd title. Dutch halted payments, and non payment led to ARA stopping production and holding already produced games until payment was made for the original, already delivered, shipment.
So Dutch effectively halted the whole project because they "found out" parts were not ordered for the 2nd game. Doesnt add up to me. Doesnt sound like there are any issues from ARA's side in finishing TBL, only that DP have not paid for already delivered games. Why cant Dutch simply finish TBL's production with ARA then begin looking for a new producer for game 2?
Is it slightly concerning Dutch hasn't yet, according to ARA, paid for the original shipment of games?
Quoted from rubberducks:
They claimed that production was halted due to non-payment in October '16 and will only be resumed if their demands are met.
This is categorically untrue. They were still in production on November the 3rd, when 20 games were finished. About 30 of us bore witness to this. Magically, despite production ceasing before that date, the number of finished games has doubled?
Perhaps they meant new game production/parts procurement was halted in October, but they had to finish the 20 already on the line.
Quoted from RTR:
Gary Stern has the same kind of deal (although he probably owns a lot less than 49%) and he seems to do ok.
How much did Jack have to "sell" to his investor stay afloat. Sounds like a similar path.
I'd speculate it's a Debt for equity swap. Dutch can't pay. All they've got to sell is goodwill.
Unless there is another angel investor floating around, sounds like the only way Dutch can possibly survive.
From Jaap and Barry's point of view, owning 100% of DP as it is now is probably worth next to nothing. The alternative is owning 49% of a pinball manufacturer capable of designing, marketing and producing actual pinball machines. Has to be a net win for them.
I heard Jaap speak at TPF in April, and this latest announcement reads like he spoke. Was a lot of meaningless "motivation speak" that might work if he had something positive to say, but when attempting to explain your way out of a shit-fight, just sounds like he's lying and trying to divert attention from the real issues.
Quoted from mgpasman:
You make it sound like a great deal, but chances are slimming done by the minute, shouldn't you be selling your spot for (a lot) less than what you paid? I have seen people selling RAZA or AIW spots for under half of what they paid for it.
I think rarehero 's game is one of the 40 already produced and sitting in a box with ARA. Not sure if that makes his spot more valuable or not. If DP legal action against ARA were successful, it would most likely mean his game would be released for shipping.
(All conjecture of course).
I dont have a horse in this, though was very close early on. I cant see how this works from now on unless they get an investor or borrow some money (like normal businesses need to do) OR they begin selling more TBL's. I highly doubt anyone is going to buy a TBL from Dutch unless they physically had one in their hands (mind you, Rarehero just sold his spot, so there is always one person i guess). So it really comes down to investor/loan.
Whatever happened to investing your own freakin money in a business? Biggest problem with the crowdfunding model IMO, is the guys that run it have little or no "skin in the game". Which is why they couldn't give a f*ck if it's completed now, in 2 years or ever.
The other major problem is the crowd funders are effectively investors, but have none of the typical rights or upside of an investor. An investor would normally expect a certain level of transparency and get to see the current financials of the company they've invested in. In this case DP are giving their "investors" the finger and not displaying any transparency at all.
What happens when the new CM comes back with a price and it's the same or higher than the "inflated" price that ARA are now asking?
If they have nothing to show now, they should wait until TPF in March. What is the point of showing off a manufacturer at a show? They could do this with a you Tube video. I think everyone is beyond taking DP on their word at the moment. The only thing that will give anyone any faith is an actual playable game from the new CM.
Only way I would order would be through Cointaker or whoever is distributing. So if Cointaker places an order and pays for 100 games or whatever, then on-sells, it might work out.
Still dont understand why DP didnt just swallow their pride and pay whatever ARA wanted just to release the next batch of games. Then terminate the deal, then find another contractor. So clearly DP had no $$ left to even pay for the next batch.
Quoted from EternalLife:
24 - Please listen to Jaaps livestream from June, he laid it all out on what ARA did and why ARA never put themselves in a position to be paid. Short story, ARA didn't provide a correct bill for the first 50 games - ARA wanted more than the original contract price. DP did agree to cost increases, but only if all the games were completed and delivered by certain deadlines. The deadlines were not met, but ARA still wanted the extra money. I can't fault DP, or anyone for not paying a bill that is over the true amount owed. Hard to win in court with "my wrong bill was not paid" and "I didn't deliver 300 games, but I was going to"
Only one small problem with that story. If DP haven't paid ARA for the first 50 games, there should be plenty of cash to fund production of the first run of games with the new CM. Yet DP themselves have said they have no money left and need the new orders to fund the remaining prepaid ones.
Why would ARA commence legal proceedings without solid legal advice they are entitled to their claim? I would assume there is a black and white contract signed by both parties outlining the terms of the contract agreement. Since ARA is a contract manufacturer, I would also think the terms of the contract are pretty clear and written to cover themselves for exactly this situation. In other words, this is not their first rodeo, I’m sure they’ve had to resolve similar disputes with clients in the past.
AFAIK, DP owe ARA for the original shipment of 50 games, plus the 40 that are still sitting in their warehouse. At the very minimum they (will seek to) get authority to liquidate what’s sitting in the warehouse. Given what they are likely to sell for, that would probably also cover most of what they are owed for the first batch.
It’s probably lucky timing for Xytech that this surfaced just before they got sucked in to the DP vortex. I saw Jaap speak in person at last years TPF - trying to sell BOP3.0. I’ve never seen a man in so much delusion as to the situation he was in. Completely unaware of the shitstorm that was surrounding him. No doubt he could have deluded Xytech the same way he did ARA.
Quoted from Mr68:
No, they don't have authority at all. Those machines are DP's property right now and ARA cannot sell that which is not theirs. A court determination will need to be made on how to proceed. Which they are just now in the initial legal phase of.
I’m saying they get authority through the court ruling.
Weren’t there major board issues surfaced after the first batch of games were shipped? ARA has to re-engineer the boards, and obviously had to pass on the costs of doing this. AFAIK it was after this that things went tits up because DO refused to pay the new price?
Edi: Flynn got got in first
Quoted from Oldgoat:
Change something and everything gets reset.
This is what the few remaining DP fanboys are missing. This is what Jaap was referring to when claiming ARA bumped the price multiple times. ARA aren’t raising prices without knowing full well they’re entitled to it. DP made changes, production got repriced accordingly. End of story. As you said, this is ARA’s expertise. The contract is written precisely to cover these scenarios.
Quoted from Brijam:
1) DP are magical wizards who can talk an experienced Chinese CM into making pins without money
Well, they CONvinced over 200 (?) experienced Pinball collectors into giving them huge sums of money without pins. So anything’s possible.
If nothing else, DP were skilled and convincing salesmen. Convincing a contract manufacturer would be well within their sales skills.
From the emails it seems Dutch haven't paid for any machines. And from what I could gather now haven't got any money left.
And do the emails also seem to infer the BOP project was needed to get more funding to pay for the original TBL shipment? This seems to be the big issue - the plan to start selling BOP 2.0 in order to get pre-order funding to in turn fund TBL production. BOP didn't work. No money to pay ARA.
Quoted from Rarehero:
They should make themselves known. This schtick isn't cute...hiding behind movie nicknames, making stupid videos, asking for money & and calling ARA "nihilists" is just ridiculous considering people have lost lots of money & don't trust anyone involved with DP at this point.
If they are serious about this working out, full transparency...no more games.
Quoted from o-din:
I guess if it it is a separate website and doesn't appear on the pinside forum, then you won't have a bunch of other people crying for their own locked club threads. "I got ripped off by skit-b, members only"
No need for a separate website, just a regular forum topic that restricts who can access it. Kind of like a topic in which everyone has a thread eject except EA’s.
The guys at Aussie Arcade have just set one up for those that pre-ordered Thunderbirds. Makes sense.
Just a random thought on how this could have been resolved.
The 40 games were sold out almost instantly which indicates they were way way too cheap.
With this in mind the most equitable solution would have been:
- total cost to repay Ara = $x
- total outstanding deposits/payments received from pre-orders = $y
- total outstanding to other suppliers = $z
- total liability = ($x+$y+$z)
- total liability per game = ($x+$y+$z)/40
So why not sell the games at this price and repay all liabilities owed by DP instead of some behind closed doors price negotiated with Cointaker?
The pre-order depositors, suppliers and ARA get given their money back in full. The games are released to the market. Sell them at whatever the market will bear with a reserve of the real cost.
Even more equitable would have been if the Early Achievers then had first option to buy back in at the new market price.
Quoted from cpr9999:
Why would ARA even care?
Pinball is probably not their main business. Also, they in no way probably wanted to deal with a lot EAs. More headaches than worth for ARA. Now if you add a “Z” element called Cointaker it simplifies it for ARA.
100% agree - this deal looks like something negotiated directly between ARA and Cointaker. Which is why it is so unfair. My theory was more an “ideal world” scenario.
In any case, the games were sold WAY to cheap.
Quoted from drfrightner:
Coin Taker deserves a lot of credit for getting 40 more machines out into the pinball world for people to enjoy! Not scorn! This thread is ridiculous!
Come on - Cointaker don't deserve any credit. It seems they were just in the right place at the right time. The Dutch court is responsible for forcing the resolution. After its judgement the games would have ended up sold, Cointaker or not.
If this was a general liquidation, which it appears it should have been a long time ago, all creditors could have had equal opportunity to benefit from the proceeds of the sale of the 40 games. But since it was just the result of ARA instigated court action, the court wasn't obliged to look at all DP liabilities. Just those to relating to ARA.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:
For $25k would you rather buy Beatles Gold, BM66SLE, Alien w/ $5k left or TBL w/ $5k left?
I think $20k sounds about right for TBL and expect prices to settle there as the built games arrive. So if you bought one of the forty for $12.5k, congrats you probably just made $7.5k. Ironically most EA’s lost $8.5k
TBL is a pinball story for the ages and it will be joining other Illuminati’s like Alien, RAZA, Magic Girl, Predator and BBB. Some faired better than others, TBL is pretty bad.
It's definitely up there with the worst. And this seems to be the perfect bookend to a familiar pinball tale - the early adopters/pre-order customers being royally screwed just like they have been throughout the whole journey.
In a perfect world the EA's could/should have been offered an option to buy one of the 40 games. They would have then been able to on sell it for a $8000 profit thus recovering their initial investment. Or they could have kept it and still have a game worth $20K - almost the same as their total outlay.
But there were more than 40 fully paid EA's by the sound of it. So at some point most EA's would have lost out.
No matter how you cut up this steaming turd, someone ends up with sh*t.
Quoted from pinballslave:
That's only true if the plan which I believe DP have doesn't work out... DP now see that these games sell like hot-cakes at 12.5k... with this selling price they should be able to rack up enough spare cash to make the games for the EAs relatively quickly and give them the games they've paid for...
Who in their right mind will pre-pay DP for a pinball machine now? They'll only sell further games if they're sitting in a box ready to deliver. And who is going to pay the manufacturer to have those games built?
Quoted from pinballslave:
What the Heck! It's very interesting that there seems to be a tendency to twist all information to paint the blackest possible picture... it reminds me of my wife!! First of all it wasn't said that they have to sell all the next 100 games in order to break even... that's pure negative speculation... and 'in the black' is not limited to meaning 'back to zero' as you allude to... it can also mean making a profit... (aka millions of dollars). Sorry for the lack of negativity... but the right time to say it's all gone to shit is when it's all gone to shit, no? There's a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, and some people seem to only want to piss on it... of course you might be right, but saying it like it's fact is wrong.
I admire your positivity pinballslave , but in light of everything that has happened, any reasonable person should be skeptical of anything that involves Barry and Dutch Pinball.
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